Hamas attacking Israel

[Ilunga]

50 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

I just don't see how these two groups get there. I do see Gaza having better government.

 

Please explain the reasoning behind your belief.

 

As I have stated, there has been a circle of hatred for the better part of 80 years.

In that time Palestinians, the people themselves, have had no real voice in their own self determination.

Nutjobs have been running the show.

This conflict has only increased the potential for people to hold extreme views. 

 

 

Meanwhile on the west bank the Palestinians lose more land every year.

This is connected to the Gaza strip.

They have no real resources, their farm

land is being taken from them by settlers. 

 

 

Gaza will be a pile of rubble by the time the IDF is finished.

A few posters here keep claiming, despite evidence to the contrary, that Gaza will be rebuilt.

Again I ask you and any of those that claim this, to provide evidence that Gaza will be rebuilt, and by whom.

We can't even look after all the less fortunate people in our own societies.

 

Taking all this into consideration, why all of a sudden, will things be different this time around. 

 

 

[RomanPer]

6 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Technical glitch or anti semite producer gone rogue? 
 

 

 

 

CTV just continues to “impress”. First Omar Sachedina calling pro-Israel rally “in support of war, while peaceful Palestinians are taking shelter in the Parliament”, then this. Add to this the Calgary Mayor not attending the annual lighting of the Menorah because it’s “in support of Israel” - a lot of people in Canada making extremely limiting career decisions the last few days. After all, if you believe the antisemites, we control all the media and all the politicians…

[Super19]

On 12/6/2023 at 3:50 PM, Sharpshooter said:

A ceasefire and diplomacy is definitely the way forward. A two State solution is definitely the way forward. Rebuilding Palestine to a healthy and vibrant country, society and economy, IS the way forward. 

 

Agreed.

 

On 12/6/2023 at 3:50 PM, Sharpshooter said:

However, how does one treaty with a political party that has the destruction of those who they’re supposed to find peace with? 

Are we talking about Hamas or Nentanyahu here? 

 

Hamas is a messed up resistance group fighting for the freedom of Palestine. If you believe Hamas wants the complete destruction of Israel and the Zionists because it said so in a Hamas charter some many years ago, fine, but then you must also subscribe to the essence that at its core, Hamas is a group fighting for the freedom of Palestine. They've said that much about themselves. Its my opinion that at its core, Hamas is a messed up resistance. They are not Jew haters. They are not a terrorist group like ISIS or even the Taliban (although Hamas is an armed militant Muslim group and many are quick to call a Muslim with a gun a terrorist). This resistance is willing to die for their land. They aren't out here blowing themselves up just to kill Jews and cause senseless terror for the 72 virgins they'll get. They are full of vengeance, tho, and it has pushed them to do horrible things to the people that oppressed them, but its understandable to see why - not saying they're justified or they have the moral right to do these horrible things, no, but I can understand why.

 

My argument is that with ensuring a free state of Palestine, free from Israeli oppression it essentially kills this entire essence of Hamas. Israel wants to eliminate Hamas? Free Palestine. Then what is Hamas left to fight for? They can actually focus on building Palestine. And if Hamas isnt a group that can do it, I am sure the Palestenian people will oust them the moment they smell Hamas doing anything to jeoperdize the peace and freedom they have been yearning for for decades. No amount of Israeli bombs or missiles or bullets will kill Hamas. I think this just creates more of that Hamas ideology instead. How many of these Palestenian kids right now who have had their lives shattered forever from the destruction of these Israeli bombs want nothing more than to destroy the people that dropped the bombs on their lives? My guess? One too many. And can you really blame that kid? And the whole cycle just repeats.

 

Do you know what I mean?

 

The part where it gets tricky and great diplomatic work needs to come in is basically just where the eff do we draw the lines? What is Palestine entitled to and what is Israel entitled to?

 

Hamas probably wants it all and Nentanyahu probably wants it all.

 

Perhaps the 1967 lines?

 

Concessions and accountability will need to be made on both sides. Israel has the right to see this Hamas leadership responsible for Oct 7 sent to the Hague, and Nentanyahu his cronies and IDF leaders also sent there. 

 

Of course, if you subscribe to the camp that Israel have been Palestenians greatest ally this entire time and that Israel has already done everything in its power to make peace with Palestenians and oppressed them never or hardly ever, then I don't know what to say. We are probably on our way to an ethnic cleansing/genocide then. I just think the solution to eliminating "Hamas" is not through bombs and missiles and bullets and oppression.

 

Here's a thought experiment: What are the chances if Israel said "we promise not to oppress Palestinians, and we will compromise and agree together to a fairly proposed 2 state solution brokered by the international community" that every single Hamas member will willingly line up and take a bullet to their head by the IDF just to hear that promise be ensured for a Palestine and its people? 0%? 100%? If the answer is 100% then I think peace can be found easier than you'd think. 

[Super19]

1 hour ago, RomanPer said:

 

CTV just continues to “impress”. First Omar Sachedina calling pro-Israel rally “in support of war, while peaceful Palestinians are taking shelter in the Parliament”, then this. Add to this the Calgary Mayor not attending the annual lighting of the Menorah because it’s “in support of Israel” - a lot of people in Canada making extremely limiting career decisions the last few days. After all, if you believe the antisemites, we control all the media and all the politicians…

CTV directed journalists not to use the word “Palestine” and has cultivated a “culture of fear” that is suppressing critical coverage of Israel’s war on Gaza, according to internal emails obtained by The Breach and interviews with several employees.

The journalists said senior producers and senior editors across the platforms of CTV’s parent company Bell Media have disparaged Palestinian guests, told employees that protests calling for a ceasefire should not be reported on, and blocked or delayed stories that included too much contextual information about Israel’s military occupation and regime of apartheid in Palestine.

The journalists, who are not being identified for fear of retribution, described a widespread bias at the media conglomerate against Palestinians that’s resulted in one-sided, incomplete coverage of the violence in Gaza that does “a huge disservice” to Canadians.

Bell Media is the multi-billion-dollar conglomerate that operates CTV News Channel, CTV’s national broadcasts and national website, local CTV affiliate stations, BNN Bloomberg and CP24 in Toronto. 

These revelations follow The Breach’s analysis that found coverage on CTV National News has featured far more Israeli than Palestinian voices.

In directive, Bell denies Palestinian nation exists

 

Read the full article here. It certainly seems like CTV had an angry producer gone rogue.

 

https://breachmedia.ca/ctv-bell-media-forbids-palestine-suppresses-criticism-israel/

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Canuck Surfer]

1 hour ago, Super19 said:

Perhaps the 1967 lines?

 

This was offered to the PA as recently as 2005/06.  More territory, significantly, in 1965, 1949, 1947. In 1947 much of this territory was what is now Jordan; who some say sold out Palestinians? Also eradicated & expelled Palestinians in 1970; 25,000 dead & slaughtered. Arafat walked away from Camp David in 1978. Egypt signed a peace deal and has the Sinai to show for it. Forty plus years of relative peace. Jordan signed a peace deal twenty years ago, which has also held. At the same time West Bank & Gaza borders were discussed for Palestine in the Oslo accords. Guess who walked away? The UAE has a peace deal with Israel. The Saudi Kingdom said to be close?

 

When Palestinians focus on peace, desire peace? Walk together. There will be opportunity to re-settle. 

 

For now too many are focussed behind Hamas. A 'one state solution!'  

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

5 hours ago, Ilunga said:

There has been a circle of hatred for the better part of 80 years.

 

In that time Palestinians, the people themselves, have had no real voice in their own self determination.

Nutjobs have been running the show.

 

The almighty corruption remains the single biggest determinant in ME poverty. Manipulation of religion, culture controlled by fists, a hammer, or machine gun.  All of these, and we're only just starting.  

 

Its gone on longer than 80 years.  Pogroms, ethnic violence, violent gangs running through settlements all happened during British rule. Usually by Palestinians on Jews. All the nearby Arabic cultures vied for key trading posts & ports. During Ottoman rule, for nearly, what, 400 / 500 years there was no right of religion, language, to own land.   

[StrayDog]

4 hours ago, Super19 said:

 

 

Hamas is a messed up resistance group fighting for the freedom of Palestine. 

You continually say this. Could you please then explain the existential threat to Palestine encompassed in the music festival that Hamas attacked and took hostages from? That they had to cross the border to attack? That is not the actions of a military resistance movement, but a terrorist action. 

Hamas can claim all they want about being freedom fighters for Palestine, but I will never believe that until they make attacks against legitimate military/ government targets. Until they do that they are no more than a band of armed thugs using terror tactics against civilian targets.

[Bob Long]

6 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

Please explain the reasoning behind your belief.

 

As I have stated, there has been a circle of hatred for the better part of 80 years.

In that time Palestinians, the people themselves, have had no real voice in their own self determination.

Nutjobs have been running the show.

This conflict has only increased the potential for people to hold extreme views. 

 

 

Meanwhile on the west bank the Palestinians lose more land every year.

This is connected to the Gaza strip.

They have no real resources, their farm

land is being taken from them by settlers. 

 

 

Gaza will be a pile of rubble by the time the IDF is finished.

A few posters here keep claiming, despite evidence to the contrary, that Gaza will be rebuilt.

Again I ask you and any of those that claim this, to provide evidence that Gaza will be rebuilt, and by whom.

We can't even look after all the less fortunate people in our own societies.

 

Taking all this into consideration, why all of a sudden, will things be different this time around. 

 

 

 

I just don't think peaceful coexistence within one country is possible. There's just too much hatred, too many outside actors happy to meddle and keep this going.

 

The only viable path I see is two states, and Gaza not run by a terrorist organization. Palestinians need better leadership.

 

As far as rebuilding goes, this is a good time for people in the west who support Gaza to step up and help with more than tweets.

[Bob Long]

7 hours ago, Gnarcore said:

Not with the US butting in, sending in useless Kamala who is trying to shove the PA down the throats of Gaza & the West Bank. The Palestinian Authority is loathed and as corrupt as a Trump owned real estate company, a Biden family venture in Ukraine or war hawk, corporate toady Niki Haley...  I don't have time for this...I'll just end it there. 

 

Agreed they have to develop their next government without US meddling.

[Taxi]

13 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

Honestly show me a realistic path for change. 

That can only happen if the Isrealis change some of their policies as well.

In any relationship be it personal or societal, it takes compromise to achieve peaceful coexistence.

 

What I really believe is any pretensions of a 2 state solution are now dead.

The only real way forward is a one state solution where everyone is equal, with equal representation. 

PO talks about fear of the other and he is correct. 

There are people who see each other as fellow human beings on both sides, I have posted example if this.

 

A one state solution won't work. The Israelis have more education and wealth and would buy land out from underneath the Arabs. Then you'd have ultra religious Jews having far more babies than other groups and just taking over the West Bank. In a single state you can't, for example, say Jewish people can't live in the West Bank, and, when they move in, the police and military have to protect them. The West Bank would be totally Jewish within 1-2 generations.

 

You'd also have all sorts of military conflicts without a hard border. The islamist groups aren't going to disappear over night.

 

It didn't work in Lebanon. It wouldn't work in Israel. A two state solution where both sides unconditionally accept the right of the other to nationhood is the only solution that will work. The Israelis would also need a peace treaty with the Arab league, and outside forces, like Iran, would need to stop funding conflict.

[Optimist Prime]

12 hours ago, Gnarcore said:

Not with the US butting in, sending in useless Kamala who is trying to shove the PA down the throats of Gaza & the West Bank. The Palestinian Authority is loathed and as corrupt as a Trump owned real estate company, a Biden family venture in Ukraine or war hawk, corporate toady Niki Haley...  I don't have time for this...I'll just end it there. 

You are not wrong about the corruption but it is the lesser of two bad things when the current regime is murderous, i will take corrupt over murderous any day of the week.

[Optimist Prime]

3 hours ago, Taxi said:

A one state solution won't work. The Israelis have more education and wealth and would buy land out from underneath the Arabs. Then you'd have ultra religious Jews having far more babies than other groups and just taking over the West Bank. In a single state you can't, for example, say Jewish people can't live in the West Bank, and, when they move in, the police and military have to protect them. The West Bank would be totally Jewish within 1-2 generations.

 

You'd also have all sorts of military conflicts without a hard border. The Islamist groups aren't going to disappear over night.

 

It didn't work in Lebanon. It wouldn't work in Israel. A two state solution where both sides unconditionally accept the right of the other to nationhood is the only solution that will work. The Israelis would also need a peace treaty with the Arab league, and outside forces, like Iran, would need to stop funding conflict.

While I think the two state solution of some sort may work out, I think there is a third option as well where Transjordan is reimagined and the West Bank rejoin the Kingdom of Jordan. I don't know if Jordan would want that in any way, but it is an option for the world to consider. The world is involved and has to be involved because the two tribes currently in conflict simply can not solve this on their own in any lasting way.

 

edit: thoughts are flowing to the carrot for Jordan possibly being a port in Gaza, with the strip unattached physically to Transjordan, which would include the west bank but with right of passage for workers and vehicles to move goods to the Mediterranean seaport of Gaza...perhaps. Just an off the cuff thought.

[Bob Long]

1 minute ago, Optimist Prime said:

While I think the two state solution of some sort may work out, I think there is a third option as well where Transjordan is reimagined and the West Bank rejoin the Kingdom of Jordan. I don't know if Jordan would want that in any way, but it is an option for the world to consider. The world is involved and has to be involved because the two tribes currently in conflict simply can not solve this on their own in any lasting way.

 

but isn't global meddling part of the problem? these folks have to figure it out for themselves if its going to last imo. 

[Optimist Prime]

12 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

but isn't global meddling part of the problem? these folks have to figure it out for themselves if its going to last imo. 

Like homer said of beer: "Here's to the cause of and solution to all our problems".

 

Of course 'global meddling' is part of the problem. We don't have time machines but the obvious problem was England gifting the protectorate to the world's Jews in the first place, we can't undo that now though the genie is out of the bottle, as it were. Also, coming from a place of working abroad to further Canada's interests, I can tell you with 100% certainty that every nation in the world is active in most of the other nations of the world, working against those nations interests if they at odds with the home country. Canada is one of the nicest nations on earth, so to speak, and we do it. The nations 'worse than us' are doing it double time three shifts a day nonstop. That is a big part of this disinformation age. Even in my time in the service 'we' in Canada managed triple digits of taking pieces off the board, globally, for instance, and again we are among the nicest of nations. This India assassination plot that Trudeau took flak for speaking out loud in part on early...now we are seeing that it was real and multinational and the foreign agent has been arrested in New York and facing trial for attempting at least 4 such murder plots, the first of which was in Vancouver and successful. A long winded way to say that the world today is actively already meddling everywhere all the time. Not doing so would lead to ruin at this point for the first team to cut it out. Not saying I like or agree with it, but simply that it is already too big to fail, as a 'way of life' for the globe. 

 

Edit: i want to carry the thought further. Sorry to be long winded, it is a complicated affair though. Generally speaking, our allies are the basic democracies of the world, and we are in an existential 'fight' with pretty much every undemocratic nation in the world. They are not natural friends with each other, more like the legion of doom in the old Super Friends morning cartoon...they are forced to work with other despots because they are generally all dictators of the worst kind and would topple to the pressure of global democracy without leaning on the despot next door to help prop up their individual regimes... If democracy takes a day off, Russia, North Korea, Iran, Hamas, and another dozen lesser nations of the earth will simply seize that day to advance their dark empires. For me, in a way, the Yankee fight over Trump as president is a TSN turning point for world history. Will the democratic flank be routed with a Trump win in 2024, where many american constitutional scholars predict that maybe the last open election in US history. The sinking of democracy's Bismark as it were would have ruinous ends for the freedoms and successes of Democracies around the globe. 

 

We may not end in a global thermonuclear war, but we could end up in a short few decades living in failed states much like those we currently ship aid to, without the endless 'global meddling' that keeps Democratic nations more or less on top of the world order. Working against our own privilege by moral 'warriors' directly plays into the hands of your Putin's, your Kim Jong Urn's, your Basheer Al Asshats (spelling error on purpose) and your Iranian Theocracies. To name a few. 

 

Anywho, good morning everyone. ; )

[Bob Long]

4 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

Like homer said of beer: "Here's to the cause of and solution to all our problems".

 

Of course 'global meddling' is part of the problem. We don't have time machines but the obvious problem was England gifting the protectorate to the world's Jews in the first place, we can't undo that now though the genie is out of the bottle, as it were. Also, coming from a place of working abroad to further Canada's interests, I can tell you with 100% certainty that every nation in the world is active in most of the other nations of the world, working against those nations interests if they at odds with the home country. Canada is one of the nicest nations on earth, so to speak, and we do it. The nations 'worse than us' are doing it double time three shifts a day nonstop. That is a big part of this disinformation age. Even in my time in the service 'we' in Canada managed triple digits of assassinations globally, for instance, and again we are among the nicest of nations. This India assassination plot that Trudeau took flak for speaking out loud in part on early...now we are seeing that it was real and multinational and the foreign agent has been arrested in New York and facing trial for attempting at least 4 such murder plots, the first of which was in Vancouver and successful. A long winded way to say that the world today is actively already meddling everywhere all the time. Not doing so would lead to ruin at this point for the first team to cut it out. Not saying I like or agree with it, but simply that it is already too big to fail, as a 'way of life' for the globe. 

 

good points. 

 

Well, I guess we'll have to wait and see whats next once the fighting stops and the smoke clears, see who has an appetite for whats to come. 

 

When can we go back to Indigo for a Starbucks? thats seems important now too. 

[Super19]

 

[Bob Long]

13 minutes ago, Super19 said:

 

 

This is stupid 

[Super19]

12 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

This is stupid 

Is this the first real implication of the war spilling into region?  

 

Yemen/Houthis announcing a naval blockade against Israel will surely force Israel into military action against them, or Nentanyahu will urge the US and Saudi to deal with the Houthis.

[King Heffy]

9 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Is this the first real implication of the war spilling into region?  

 

Yemen/Houthis announcing a naval blockade against Israel will surely force Israel into military action against them, or Nentanyahu will urge the US and Saudi to deal with the Houthis.

Once again, Israel's enemies threatening civilians.  Are you willing to agree that this, at the very least, is terrorism?

[Optimist Prime]

the Houthis are playing checkers and are only pretending to be on the world stage, they will pay a steep price for these theatrics, and not much more will happen, maybe a few ships will be imperilled before their threat is dealt with. Unfortunate decision from their power people.

[Optimist Prime]

any time that a group decides that murder is justified for their cause, that side is the bad guy. The sad reality is that the good guys have no alternative than to extinguish those rabid dogs, no matter where in the world they are.

[Bob Long]

54 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Is this the first real implication of the war spilling into region?  

 

Yemen/Houthis announcing a naval blockade against Israel will surely force Israel into military action against them, or Nentanyahu will urge the US and Saudi to deal with the Houthis.

 

nah just some bozos trying to be important. 

[Super19]

58 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

nah just some bozos trying to be important. 

This is a real escalation IMO.

 

This blockade obviously has severe implications. Clap back against the Houthis? They'll target Saudi oil with their rockets. If Saudi oil gets hit, more escalation.

[RomanPer]

2 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

This is stupid 

 

The next #FAFO candidates.