Hamas attacking Israel

[Super19]

5 hours ago, Alflives said:

Morons. Stupid people doing stupid things. If they aren’t Canadians deport their asses. 

IDK about that. I think the fact the Indigenous showed solidarity and actually led this march calling for a ceasefire and a free Palestine was very significant and powerful. Canada is all about truth and reconciliation, so when the Indigenous people are leading a march in solidarity with Palestine, (a march which included Jewish and Christian Canadians and many Palestinian Canadians I'm sure) all Canadians should ask themselves, do you really support truth and reconciliation in Canada and around the world?

 

Just a week or two ago I remember Indigenous people were blocking a railway in Winnipeg in support of Palestine.

 

Also, in Edmonton during the national anthem for an Oilers game, the Indigenous women who were singing the anthems were wearing a keffiyeh - another act of solidarity with the Palestinians. 

 

 

Here is another example of what looks to be in Toronto, you can clearly see the solidarity our Indigenous have with the Palestenian plight.

 

 

Nentanyahu and his supporters must be seething from seeing marches like these from people all around the world. "Why aren't they marching for usss". Israel too can FAFO. Funny how most people don't support a genocide, and while our governments directly fund and support it, it's sparking voices in outrage around the world that transcends colour, creed, religion, political spectrum, all in support of the Palestenian plight and against this Israeli oppression/genocide.

Beauty of our country? You have every right to call these people stupid, moronic and exile worthy. But check yourself before you find yourself on the wrong side of history.

 

Can you tell me why you think they are stupid morons? And if they not had a Canadian citizenship, deserve to be deported?

Edited December 10, 2023 by Super19

[Bob Long]

6 hours ago, Super19 said:

An Indigenous contigent led this week's "All Out For Palestine" March in downtown Vancouver earlier this evening. 

 

Crowds of people gathered at Vancouver Art Gallery to hear a few words from Indigenous and Palestenian activists, before the Indigenous contigent led the march, as over 1,000 followed behind chanting "Ceasefire Now" and "Free Free Palestine" in the wet rainy streets of Downtown Vancouver.

 

Sources estimate over 20,000 civillians have now been killed in Gaza since Israel began their military operation, most of the killed are women and children.

 

 

 

What does indigenous contingent mean?

[Super19]

4 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

What does indigenous contingent mean?

I'm not getting into semantics.

[Bob Long]

Just now, Super19 said:

I'm not getting into semantics.

 

Ok I'm just curious what that meant tho not looking for a fight .

[RomanPer]

[Optimist Prime]

Roughly 70 Square Km's have of Northern Gaza have been captured by the IDF, leaving roughly 40 square KM's left to rid of Hamas fighters. There are still ongoing battles in the area so the work is not done. 

 

Hamas can not win this, and by not surrendering and offering the remaining hostages back to Israel, Hamas is proving they do not care about Gazans lives, considering they are the government of Gaza, this is shameful and disgusting. 

[Optimist Prime]

4 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

What does indigenous contingent mean?

like the logging fight in the First Nation's land of the Pacheedaat People: the environmentalists blocking the nation from logging its land have a few indigenous folks with them and so they claim they are standing for the rights of First Nations: but they leave out the fact that they are illegally blocking a legitimate first nation from exercising its rights to govern its own lands. Apparently now having people among your protest who are First Nations peoples makes your protest for all first nations people. It is absurd, like Biden saying if you black and voting republican you ain't black. Just absurd statements. All kinds of people are lining up on all sides expressing passion over the issue: the one thing we all do have in common is we all want peace and prosperity for all involved: except terrorists: they want to get their way and are willing to kill to achieve the results. 

[Super19]

17 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

like the logging fight in the First Nation's land of the Pacheedaat People: the environmentalists blocking the nation from logging its land have a few indigenous folks with them and so they claim they are standing for the rights of First Nations: but they leave out the fact that they are illegally blocking a legitimate first nation from exercising its rights to govern its own lands. Apparently now having people among your protest who are First Nations peoples makes your protest for all first nations people. It is absurd, like Biden saying if you black and voting republican you ain't black. Just absurd statements. All kinds of people are lining up on all sides expressing passion over the issue: the one thing we all do have in common is we all want peace and prosperity for all involved: except terrorists: they want to get their way and are willing to kill to achieve the results. 

Hmm, exactly like Israel is doing as well? Hmm *strokes beard*

[Optimist Prime]

36 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Hmm, exactly like Israel is doing as well? Hmm *strokes beard*

Man, just stop quoting me.  There is nothing you have to say that I am interested in reading. 

[RomanPer]

1 hour ago, Optimist Prime said:

like the logging fight in the First Nation's land of the Pacheedaat People: the environmentalists blocking the nation from logging its land have a few indigenous folks with them and so they claim they are standing for the rights of First Nations: but they leave out the fact that they are illegally blocking a legitimate first nation from exercising its rights to govern its own lands. Apparently now having people among your protest who are First Nations peoples makes your protest for all first nations people. It is absurd, like Biden saying if you black and voting republican you ain't black. Just absurd statements. All kinds of people are lining up on all sides expressing passion over the issue: the one thing we all do have in common is we all want peace and prosperity for all involved: except terrorists: they want to get their way and are willing to kill to achieve the results. 

Exactly. It’s no different than finding a small group of Jews and claiming that “Jews stand with free Palestine”. It finding another Jew and waving his Holocaust surviving parents as some sort of proof of higher truth.

[Super19]

47 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

Man, just stop quoting me.  There is nothing you have to say that I am interested in reading. 

I imagine it must be real annoying for you when I challenge your thoughts since as our Mod, you have to read what I say. I behave myself though.

[Bob Long]

1 hour ago, Optimist Prime said:

like the logging fight in the First Nation's land of the Pacheedaat People: the environmentalists blocking the nation from logging its land have a few indigenous folks with them and so they claim they are standing for the rights of First Nations: but they leave out the fact that they are illegally blocking a legitimate first nation from exercising its rights to govern its own lands. Apparently now having people among your protest who are First Nations peoples makes your protest for all first nations people. It is absurd, like Biden saying if you black and voting republican you ain't black. Just absurd statements. All kinds of people are lining up on all sides expressing passion over the issue: the one thing we all do have in common is we all want peace and prosperity for all involved: except terrorists: they want to get their way and are willing to kill to achieve the results. 

 

Thanks thats what I thought but didn't want to say it, I've made enough enemies in this thread

[Bob Long]

1 hour ago, Super19 said:

Hmm, exactly like Israel is doing as well? Hmm *strokes beard*

 

One fascinating part of all this is the groups that want to align with (what they interpret) as the Palestinian situation and some link to it from another issue?

 

Don't you think there's a real risk of Palestinian needs being subverted or diluted by e.g. people chanting about colonialism or whatever their apparent adjacent thing is? 

[RomanPer]

2 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

One fascinating part of all this is the groups that want to align with (what they interpret) as the Palestinian situation and some link to it from another issue?

 

Don't you think there's a real risk of Palestinian needs being subverted or diluted by e.g. people chanting about colonialism or whatever their apparent adjacent thing is? 

Let him stroke whatever he wants

[Taxi]

On 12/9/2023 at 5:11 PM, Ilunga said:

Not stealing land ?

Didn't you read the article, Isreali human rights organisation.

I know you have never been much for human rights when they don't suit your purposes.

 

 

As for being the same ethnicity, actually Palestinians and Jews are of the same ethnicity, they share the same genetic history.

 

https://www.haaretz.com/science-and-health/2015-10-20/ty-article/palestinians-and-jews-share-genetic-roots/0000017f-dc0e-df9c-a17f-fe1e57730000

 

And above all, we are all human beings that can be traced back to the place that is now called Botswana. 

 

I gave a date for the birth rate figures, only four years old. 

 

 

So you're stating you want a one state solution with equal rights for all, but why Jewish person who moves into the West Bank is also still a thief. That's not the way it works. If you have a one state solution any citizen can move anywhere in the country.

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, Taxi said:

So you're stating you want a one state solution with equal rights for all, but why Jewish person who moves into the West Bank is also still a thief. That's not the way it works. If you have a one state solution any citizen can move anywhere in the country.

 

You have obviously didn't read the article.

 

Here you go, please read it.

 

http://www.btselem.org/publications/summaries/200205_land_grab

 

 

There is a difference between legally acquiring land and what the Isreali settlers, backed by their governments have been doing for decades, stealing it.

 

Definition of stealing 

 

The action or offence of taking another persons property without permission or legal right and without the intention to return it.

 

Even Aussies are getting in on the act.

In case you missed it the first time 

 

https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/religionandethicsreport/property-deal-could-threaten-armenian-presence-in-holy-land/103126920

 

1600 hundred years the Armenians have been living in Jerusalem.

 

 

 

Going under the current system, equal rights for Palestinians would equate to them being able to steal land from the Isrealis. 

 

And yes I am for a one state solution.

Shit I am for a one world solution.

Where we all share the same culture, treating each other the way we wish to be treated.

Living in a world where 30 percent of the food that is produced in not thrown away, while hundreds of millions don't have enough to eat.

Where 1 percent of the world's population does not hold 50 percent of the wealth.

Where that wealth is divided more equally.

Where people can raise the families in a secure environment. 

 

Where we realise that we are all in this together.

 

[Optimist Prime]

39 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

I am for a one world solution.

Where we all share the same culture, treating each other the way we wish to be treated.

Living in a world where 30 percent of the food that is produced in not thrown away, while hundreds of millions don't have enough to eat.

Where 1 percent of the world's population does not hold 50 percent of the wealth.

Where that wealth is divided more equally.

Where people can raise the families in a secure environment. 

 

I dig it. I can't wait for a "united earth federation" a la Star Trek. Science may yet get us there, but we really need to do something about those who will take power by force before we can arrive there. 

[Ilunga]

2 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

I dig it. I can't wait for a "united earth federation" a la Star Trek. Science may yet get us there, but we really need to do something about those who will take power by force before we can arrive there. 

 

It's not science that will get us there brother, it's a mindset. 

 

" Those " have already taken the power.

Why do you think we live in a world where 1 percent of the population holds 50 percent of the wealth.

And we aren't talking about politicians. 

They are middle management at best.

 

[Optimist Prime]

9 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

It's not science that will get us there brother, it's a mindset. 

 

" Those " have already taken the power.

Why do you think we live in a world where 1 percent of the population holds 50 percent of the wealth.

And we aren't talking about politicians. 

They are middle management at best.

 

I have always thought any billionaire should at least be on trial at the Hague for crimes against humanity. Barring that, public beheading at the local soccer stadium would suffice. I am only semi-joking.

[Ilunga]

13 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

When they use the term, lest we forget, in regards to our veterans, I think it's more applicable to the Holacuast.

 

We seem to have forgotten that we, as a world society, promised we would never let something like that ever happen again.

 

[Ilunga]

12 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

Thanks thats what I thought but didn't want to say it, I've made enough enemies in this thread

 

" It's too late, when we die 

To admit that we don't see eye to eye " 

 

Just because people  don't agree all the time doesn't make them enemies.

[Ilunga]

@Optimist Prime 

 

Just watched Prosecuting Evil, the story of Ben Ferenc.

The write up for the program describes him as " one of the holocausts most heroic figures " 

He was one of the 2 chief prosecutors at the Nuremberg trials. 

This is a must see program. 

Even though he exposed so many of the mass murderers he took no joy in their deaths.

Most of the papers/ records he discovered and used to convict these people didn't use the word murder, they used the word exterminate.

The work he and his fellow prosecutor did laid the groundwork for international law.

 

The work he went on to do in the States afterwards is also legendary. 

 

Bens life is truly an example of a person being a hero.

A true humanitarian. 

 

You cannot kill an entrenched ideology with a gun " 

" You have to teach compassion and tolerance at a young age "

 

Ben Ferenc 

Edited December 11, 2023 by Ilunga

[Canuck Surfer]

4 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

It's not science that will get us there brother, it's a mindset. 

 

" Those " have already taken the power.

Why do you think we live in a world where 1 percent of the population holds 50 percent of the wealth.

And we aren't talking about politicians. 

They are middle management at best.

 

 

So lets square up some of these concepts please.

 

You believe in a one state solution for Israel / Palestine?  So that's a multicultural state.  Is it a democracy, do Bibi and Abbas nominate a UN style council to govern. Israel as the, likely, winner of the war? Do they get a security style veto. Do they both invite neighbor's, lets keep it to the current most civil relationships; Jordan &  Egypt. Its an idealistic concept. I love multiculturalism. I am not sure it could be negotiated at this moment.  Is it worth discussing right now?

 

Or am I missing how something could work... 

 

I disagree with the middle management theory.  Its true in the West. Democracies also fizzle focus. Israel does not have a single border which is not occupied by an autocratic or militant govt. People like Arafat from the PLO, the King of Jordan, Hosni Mubarak, were all among that 1% you speak of.  Palestinian's even as citizens are a minority that distract from the message which helps them control their own populations. Hamas, Israel, add Houthis, Iranians, keep going, political, militant wing or otherwise are all just other guys with guns they have to monitor to stay in power. More dangerous than poverty stricken refugee's. Ruling their countries is big, huge business for these autocrats, warlords & dictators. 

 

As an aside;

 

I agree Israel, vis a vie settlers and rogue politicians? Who evoke swing power within the govt. to let such settlers run more than just a bit amok. I also believe they heavy handed in security. Rubber bullets for 15 year olds throwing rocks is unjustified. Developments for big business in occupied zones is atrocious.  Investing in businesses that employed Palestinians, created homes employed Palestinians could purchase, education, tourism would be different.  

 

I agree with Roman there is an imminent danger; believe in spite of international law that occupation of the West Bank / Golan Heights is justified. Believe they have a right to confront & have measures for those that commit acts like suicide bombings, kidnappings. The right to arrest those that stab or do mob violence. Control borders for arms and smuggling of militia intent on attacking Israel. Responding heavy handed to this type of attack when it occurs. Controlled borders to Syria.     

 

Israel's extremist RW 'thiefs?'  Remember, I agree. I believe being the 1st world and biggest power; Israel needs to set the bar for law and order. Not abuse it. Yaov Gallant?

 

Does everyone remember Vancouver Indo Canadian gangster Bindy Johal?  He did deal cocaine, but his main businesses were murder for hire, 'security', and he had balls harder than Sami Salo.  He would bust up million dollar plus drug deals, and hold gangsters & their product for ransom money. They could not go to the police?

 

That Hamas is corrupt? Deals in terrorism, human trafficking, black markets, soldiers for hire?  Gallant and the IDF don't feel guilty going on a rampage, killing the odd Palestinian.  To them these guys are cocaine dealers in this analogy.  Palestinians some of the guys that hang around.  Its not right!  Its not even vigilantism. There is theft hiding behind what might otherwise be legitimate security.

 

 

   

[Ilunga]

5 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

So lets square up some of these concepts please.

 

You believe in a one state solution for Israel / Palestine?  So that's a multicultural state.  Is it a democracy, do Bibi and Abbas nominate a UN style council to govern. Israel as the, likely, winner of the war? Do they get a security style veto. Do they both invite neighbor's, lets keep it to the current most civil relationships; Jordan &  Egypt. Its an idealistic concept. I love multiculturalism. I am not sure it could be negotiated at this moment.  Is it worth discussing right now?

 

Or am I missing how something could work... 

 

I disagree with the middle management theory.  Its true in the West. Democracies also fizzle focus. Israel does not have a single border which is not occupied by an autocratic or militant govt. People like Arafat from the PLO, the King of Jordan, Hosni Mubarak, were all among that 1% you speak of.  Palestinian's even as citizens are a minority that distract from the message which helps them control their own populations. Hamas, Israel, add Houthis, Iranians, keep going, political, militant wing or otherwise are all just other guys with guns they have to monitor to stay in power. More dangerous than poverty stricken refugee's. Ruling their countries is big, huge business for these autocrats, warlords & dictators. 

 

As an aside;

 

I agree Israel, vis a vie settlers and rogue politicians? Who evoke swing power within the govt. to let such settlers run more than just a bit amok. I also believe they heavy handed in security. Rubber bullets for 15 year olds throwing rocks is unjustified. Developments for big business in occupied zones is atrocious.  Investing in businesses that employed Palestinians, created homes employed Palestinians could purchase, education, tourism would be different.  

 

I agree with Roman there is an imminent danger; believe in spite of international law that occupation of the West Bank / Golan Heights is justified. Believe they have a right to confront & have measures for those that commit acts like suicide bombings, kidnappings. The right to arrest those that stab or do mob violence. Control borders for arms and smuggling of militia intent on attacking Israel. Responding heavy handed to this type of attack when it occurs. Controlled borders to Syria.     

 

Israel's extremist RW 'thiefs?'  Remember, I agree. I believe being the 1st world and biggest power; Israel needs to set the bar for law and order. Not abuse it. Yaov Gallant?

 

Does everyone remember Vancouver Indo Canadian gangster Bindy Johal?  He did deal cocaine, but his main businesses were murder for hire, 'security', and he had balls harder than Sami Salo.  He would bust up million dollar plus drug deals, and hold gangsters & their product for ransom money. They could not go to the police?

 

That Hamas is corrupt? Deals in terrorism, human trafficking, black markets, soldiers for hire?  Gallant and the IDF don't feel guilty going on a rampage, killing the odd Palestinian.  To them these guys are cocaine dealers in this analogy.  Palestinians some of the guys that hang around.  Its not right!  Its not even vigilantism. There is theft hiding behind what might otherwise be legitimate security.

 

 

   

 

It would be place where everyone is equal. 

 

Screw governments, they're mostly corrupt, as is the case with Isreals government, and the series of governing bodies the Palestinians have been forced to live with. 

 

Like the Athenians I believe a sortition to be a better democratic tool than elections. 

They had specially built allotment machines called kleroteria.

They were used to avoid corrupt practices used by oligarchs to buy their way into power. 

 

As for Isreals " right " to occupy the west bank, the international community doesn't believe this, they deem it against international law.

As my post above yours indicates, international/ humanitarian law was founded on the work Ben Ferenc and his fellow prosecutor did at the Nuremberg war trials. 

 

And again for the third time I will post this. 

 

Please read it.

 

http://www.btselem.org/publications/summaries/200205_land_grab

 

Doest seem like justice is being served does it.

 

 

[Taxi]

4 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

It would be place where everyone is equal. 

 

Screw governments, they're mostly corrupt, as is the case with Isreals government, and the series of governing bodies the Palestinians have been forced to live with. 

 

Like the Athenians I believe a sortition to be a better democratic tool than elections. 

They had specially built allotment machines called kleroteria.

They were used to avoid corrupt practices used by oligarchs to buy their way into power. 

 

As for Isreals " right " to occupy the west bank, the international community doesn't believe this, they deem it against international law.

As my post above yours indicates, international/ humanitarian law was founded on the work Ben Ferenc and his fellow prosecutor did at the Nuremberg war trials. 

 

And again for the third time I will post this. 

 

Please read it.

 

http://www.btselem.org/publications/summaries/200205_land_grab

 

Doest seem like justice is being served does it.

 

 

 

This is definitely a great hypothetical situation. Unfortunately, it hasn't worked anywhere else in the world. How is it going to work in a country with some of the worst conflict in the world? A country where outside forces, like Iran, are funding militant hate groups to teach children to kill the other. 

 

Going back to the logistics, you are simultaneously stating that Israelis should not be allowed to live in the West Bank, but also calling for one single country, with equal rights for all. How does that work?