Hamas attacking Israel

[RomanPer]

6 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

It would be place where everyone is equal. 

 

Screw governments, they're mostly corrupt, as is the case with Isreals government, and the series of governing bodies the Palestinians have been forced to live with. 

 

Like the Athenians I believe a sortition to be a better democratic tool than elections. 

They had specially built allotment machines called kleroteria.

They were used to avoid corrupt practices used by oligarchs to buy their way into power. 

 

As for Isreals " right " to occupy the west bank, the international community doesn't believe this, they deem it against international law.

As my post above yours indicates, international/ humanitarian law was founded on the work Ben Ferenc and his fellow prosecutor did at the Nuremberg war trials. 

 

And again for the third time I will post this. 

 

Please read it.

 

http://www.btselem.org/publications/summaries/200205_land_grab

 

Doest seem like justice is being served does it.

 

 

 

Guys, it seems you are both talking past each other. @Ilunga, you are talking about the past and present while the guys you are arguing with are talking about hypothetical future.

[Ilunga]

5 hours ago, Taxi said:

 

This is definitely a great hypothetical situation. Unfortunately, it hasn't worked anywhere else in the world. How is it going to work in a country with some of the worst conflict in the world? A country where outside forces, like Iran, are funding militant hate groups to teach children to kill the other. 

 

Going back to the logistics, you are simultaneously stating that Israelis should not be allowed to live in the West Bank, but also calling for one single country, with equal rights for all. How does that work?

 

It doesn't work because there are too many people that won't let it work. 

Apathy and despair. 

 

Where did I state Isrealis are not allowed in the west bank ?

 

If they acquire the land by legal means people can live wherever they want. 

 

Blah blah blah Iran boogey man.

The boogey man western interventionism created and perpetuates.

 

[Optimist Prime]

From my experience these boogey men exist. Russia really really invaded Ukraine for real. Kim Jong Un really really for real wants nukes so bad so he can strike the US and her allies, (us in Canada and you in Australia), Hamas, a puppet of sorts of Iran really really for real wants to murder every jew in israel. I am not sure i jive with your views on the west 'inventing' boogeymen. Bad people exist and sometimes good people have to do bad things for the greater good in the long run. At least that is my world view. 

[Ilunga]

3 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

Guys, it seems you are both talking past each other. @Ilunga, you are talking about the past and present while the guys you are arguing with are talking about hypothetical future.

 

How do you know where you are going if you don't know where you have been.

 

Along with Hamas being neutralized, Isreals illegal settlements have to stop as well.

That land has to be given back, especially the farmland.

That's one of the few resources the Palestinians have.

 

As I have pointed out my friend, Isrealis and Palestinians are basically blood brothers, they share the same genetic heritage.

 

I am talking about a future where both sides recognise this. 

[Ilunga]

4 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

From my experience these boogey men exist. Russia really really invaded Ukraine for real. Kim Jong Un really really for real wants nukes so bad so he can strike the US and her allies, (us in Canada and you in Australia), Hamas, a puppet of sorts of Iran really really for real wants to murder every jew in israel. I am not sure i jive with your views on the west 'inventing' boogeymen. Bad people exist and sometimes good people have to do bad things for the greater good in the long run. At least that is my world view. 

 

I have explained several times OP.

 

Iran had a democratically elected government that was overthrown by a CIA and British backed coup.

That democratically elected government was ahead of it's time, giving women rights they didn't have in our countries until 20 years later.

 

Then in the 90's when Iran experienced the Tehran Spring under the reformist government of Mohammad Khatami, it was Bush's axis of evil comments that allowed the hardliners to put the focus back on the west. 

 

All this is easy to research. 

 

As for Kim Jong Un, I have no fear of him using nukes on us here in Aus. 

I don't believe he is crazy enough to use them against the US either.

He leads a great life as a dictator of his country.

 

[Super19]

50 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

From my experience these boogey men exist. Russia really really invaded Ukraine for real. Kim Jong Un really really for real wants nukes so bad so he can strike the US and her allies, (us in Canada and you in Australia), Hamas, a puppet of sorts of Iran really really for real wants to murder every jew in israel. I am not sure i jive with your views on the west 'inventing' boogeymen. Bad people exist and sometimes good people have to do bad things for the greater good in the long run. At least that is my world view. 

Oh is that the reason why Nentanyahu really really doesn't want to murder every Palestenian in Gaza?

 

But Nentanyahu has killed over 22,000 civillians in just over 2 months already, mostly women and children.

 

There are Israeli officials who have made their positions quite clear actually. What they are doing is amounting to genocide.

[Optimist Prime]

25 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Oh is that the reason why Nentanyahu really really doesn't want to murder every Palestenian in Gaza?

 

But Nentanyahu has killed over 22,000 civillians in just over 2 months already, mostly women and children.

 

There are Israeli officials who have made their positions quite clear actually. What they are doing is amounting to genocide.

I have already asked you to stop quoting me. Stop trying to fight with me or argue with me. I am not interested in anything you have to say, and I do not want to have to see anything you post. Cease and desist from tagging me or replying to me from here on out. I can not be any more clear.

[Bob Long]

1 hour ago, Optimist Prime said:

From my experience these boogey men exist. Russia really really invaded Ukraine for real. Kim Jong Un really really for real wants nukes so bad so he can strike the US and her allies, (us in Canada and you in Australia), Hamas, a puppet of sorts of Iran really really for real wants to murder every jew in israel. I am not sure i jive with your views on the west 'inventing' boogeymen. Bad people exist and sometimes good people have to do bad things for the greater good in the long run. At least that is my world view. 

 

This comment just makes me happy that we have sensible leaders in the west (for the most part) that understand this.

[Alflives]

1 hour ago, Optimist Prime said:

From my experience these boogey men exist. Russia really really invaded Ukraine for real. Kim Jong Un really really for real wants nukes so bad so he can strike the US and her allies, (us in Canada and you in Australia), Hamas, a puppet of sorts of Iran really really for real wants to murder every jew in israel. I am not sure i jive with your views on the west 'inventing' boogeymen. Bad people exist and sometimes good people have to do bad things for the greater good in the long run. At least that is my world view. 

The propaganda from the “axis of evil” is overwhelming for the weak mined. We see it’s affects even on a hockey chat site. It saddens old Alf how vulnerable some people are in our western world to this evil. IMHAO it’s because their lives are so easy and safe. They don’t understand what they are saying and doing. Who, in their right mind, would support a terrorist group (Hamas) that actually wants to see us all dead? And that not including the evil that is the it’s it a government and Pootin who also support and promote Hamas. IMHAO we have a spoiled society who are ignorant to the realities of the world. Thank goodness we gave western leaders like President Biden. 

[Optimist Prime]

8 minutes ago, Alflives said:

The propaganda from the “axis of evil” is overwhelming for the weak mined. We see it’s affects even on a hockey chat site. It saddens old Alf how vulnerable some people are in our western world to this evil. IMHAO it’s because their lives are so easy and safe. They don’t understand what they are saying and doing. Who, in their right mind, would support a terrorist group (Hamas) that actually wants to see us all dead? And that not including the evil that is the it’s it a government and Pootin who also support and promote Hamas. IMHAO we have a spoiled society who are ignorant to the realities of the world. Thank goodness we gave western leaders like President Biden. 

A lot of folks in North America remind me of the videos early on after Oct 7th where in the one video a guy was praising God that Hamas managed to do what they did that morning and in another video a day or two later the same man from the cheering on Hamas video was screaming and crying from being hurt in Israel's response. I suspect people are getting dumber with each passing day. That guy actually thought 1200 dead Israeli's was a victory or a good thing for Gaza...just terrible judgement. There have to be intelligent Gazans who need to be freed from the terrorists who have completely ruined their lives. Those intellectuals will need to rise to lead Gaza after this.

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Optimist Prime said:

A lot of folks in North America remind me of the videos early on after Oct 7th where 8n the one video he was praising God that Hamas managed to do what they did that morning and in another video a day or two later the same man from the cheering on Hamas video was screaming and crying from being hurt in Israel's response. I suspect people are getting dumber with each passing day. That guy actually thought 1200 dead Israel's was a victory or a good thing for Gaza...just terrible judgement. There have to be intelligent Gazans who need to be freed from the terrorists who have completely ruined their lives.

IMHAO the majority of Gaza people want peace with Israel. But if they expressed those beliefs publicly they (and their families) would suffer because if it. Once Hamas is eliminated we will see Gaza built up. Lots of western help creating lots of opportunities for the Gaza people. But Hamas, and their evil, must be gone first. 
I fell for the Israeli soldiers who have to do the job of eliminating Hamas. Their sacrifice hells the whole world and especially the people of Gaza. 

[Bob Long]

46 minutes ago, Alflives said:

The propaganda from the “axis of evil” is overwhelming for the weak mined. We see it’s affects even on a hockey chat site. It saddens old Alf how vulnerable some people are in our western world to this evil. IMHAO it’s because their lives are so easy and safe. They don’t understand what they are saying and doing. Who, in their right mind, would support a terrorist group (Hamas) that actually wants to see us all dead? And that not including the evil that is the it’s it a government and Pootin who also support and promote Hamas. IMHAO we have a spoiled society who are ignorant to the realities of the world. Thank goodness we gave western leaders like President Biden. 

 

So much of the narrative on the left now is a "ladder" of colour or perceived injustice. It makes it easy for people to hitch their wagons to movements that are helping Hamas. There's no connection whatsoever between Canadian first Nations issues and Gaza e.g.

 

I also think it's not helpful to Palestinians. If you think you've done something by avoiding Chapters or Starbucks for a week, it's easy to forget about the reality in the ground.

[Optimist Prime]

33 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

So much of the narrative on the left now is a "ladder" of colour or perceived injustice. It makes it easy for people to hitch their wagons to movements that are helping Hamas. There's no connection whatsoever between Canadian first Nations issues and Gaza e.g.

 

I also think it's not helpful to Palestinians. If you think you've done something by avoiding Chapters or Starbucks for a week, it's easy to forget about the reality in the ground.

True in a very significant way. Despite some rhetoric that supporting Israel's right to defend itself is akin to supporting baby murder and genocide, the reality is we all want peace and good health for Gazans, and a bright future they can look forward to. Killing Israeli's in a bloodthirsty mob is not the way to achieve it. There are noticeably less mass bombings of Hamas targets by Israeli warplanes now, and a lot more IDF young Israeli's are dying on the ground in Gaza working to uproot Hamas. Less collateral damage is good, but it comes with a cost to Israel in blood. I don't envy the soldiers who have to do this, it is a heavy burden they will carry with them for life, even if a ceasefire magically happened at midnight today.

[Super19]

1 hour ago, Bob Long said:

 

So much of the narrative on the left now is a "ladder" of colour or perceived injustice. It makes it easy for people to hitch their wagons to movements that are helping Hamas. There's no connection whatsoever between Canadian first Nations issues and Gaza e.g.

 

I also think it's not helpful to Palestinians. If you think you've done something by avoiding Chapters or Starbucks for a week, it's easy to forget about the reality in the ground.

Look at the strong solidarity of Indigenous peoples not only of Canada but around the world are showing with Palestine:

 

 

Are they all dumb, gullible, "terrorist supporters"? Are they leeching off the Palestenian struggle to bring light their current problems? Or do they understand what genocide and oppression looks like, and are rising up in solidarity?

[Bob Long]

Just now, Super19 said:

Look at the strong solidarity of Indigenous peoples not only of Canada but around the world are showing with Palestine:

 

 

Are they all dumb, gullible, "terrorist supporters"? Are they leeching off the Palestenian struggle to bring light their current problems? Or do they understand what genocide and oppression looks like, and are rising up in solidarity?

 

No they aren't all dumb.

 

But how do we know who they really represent? I don't know. Do they represent all first Nations people somehow?

 

If someone doesn't agree with them, then what?

[Elias Pettersson]

Harvard going down with the ship?

 

 

[Super19]

1 minute ago, Bob Long said:

 

No they aren't all dumb.

 

But how do we know who they really represent? I don't know. Do they represent all first Nations people somehow?

 

If someone doesn't agree with them, then what?

I don't want to get into a "no true Scotsman" argument. I know how that worked last time I presented many, many Jewish voices who didn't agree with the status quo of ITT.

 

But I will say what we are seeing around the world is unlike the few questionable Palestenian voices or even the few "Muslim Arab" voices that announce their unconditional support for Israel's actions.

 

But regardless, the breadth, scope, and unity from all these different types of people (like seriously, we have a SIGNIFICANT amount of Indigenous, people from the left, people from the right, multicultural, Jews to Christians to Muslims to Sikhs, LGBTQ+ to Andrew flicking Tate) all around the world that are against the sentiment of North American and Western European leaders is significant and a major red flag for these leaders who are supposed to be about truth and justice. 

[Super19]

Yemen is escalating their threats of a blockade into now firing missiles:

 

It looks like Hezbollah is getting more involved as well.

 

Everyday that passes, the US veto looks worse and worse as this is escalating.

 

Ships in the region are unsafe as the risk of a Houthi enforced blockade rises, rockets to be contended by the Iron Dome are coming in from Gaza and Hezbollah now according to reports. The IDF soldiers are now facing more risk on the ground in Gaza. And of course, above all, the Palestenians and the hostages in Gaza are in a worse spot than ever.

[King Heffy]

4 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Yemen is escalating their threats of a blockade into now firing missiles:

 

It looks like Hezbollah is getting more involved as well.

 

Everyday that passes, the US veto looks worse and worse as this is escalating.

 

Ships in the region are unsafe as the risk of a Houthi enforced blockade rises, rockets to be contended by the Iron Dome are coming in from Gaza and Hezbollah now according to reports. The IDF soldiers are now facing more risk on the ground in Gaza. And of course, above all, the Palestenians and the hostages in Gaza are in a worse spot than ever.

There's a solution but you're not going to like it because it involves killing terrorists.

[Bob Long]

43 minutes ago, Super19 said:

I don't want to get into a "no true Scotsman" argument. I know how that worked last time I presented many, many Jewish voices who didn't agree with the status quo of ITT.

 

But I will say what we are seeing around the world is unlike the few questionable Palestenian voices or even the few "Muslim Arab" voices that announce their unconditional support for Israel's actions.

 

But regardless, the breadth, scope, and unity from all these different types of people (like seriously, we have a SIGNIFICANT amount of Indigenous, people from the left, people from the right, multicultural, Jews to Christians to Muslims to Sikhs, LGBTQ+ to Andrew flicking Tate) all around the world that are against the sentiment of North American and Western European leaders is significant and a major red flag for these leaders who are supposed to be about truth and justice. 

 

Ah so you're doing the colonialism thing.

[Alflives]

24 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Yemen is escalating their threats of a blockade into now firing missiles:

 

It looks like Hezbollah is getting more involved as well.

 

Everyday that passes, the US veto looks worse and worse as this is escalating.

 

Ships in the region are unsafe as the risk of a Houthi enforced blockade rises, rockets to be contended by the Iron Dome are coming in from Gaza and Hezbollah now according to reports. The IDF soldiers are now facing more risk on the ground in Gaza. And of course, above all, the Palestenians and the hostages in Gaza are in a worse spot than ever.

We do agree that the IDF soldiers are facing increasing risk while they eliminate the evil that is Hamas. The IDF soldiers are very brave. They are doing what needs to be done so the people of Gaza can be free from Gamas control. 

[Super19]

17 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

There's a solution but you're not going to like it because it involves killing terrorists.

6,000 prisoners for the 250 hostages leading to 0 additional deaths and no escalating violence + renewed diplomacy and a strict ceasefire ensuring the protection of innocents on both sides = solution.

 

But look how messy things are getting now.

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Super19 said:

6,000 prisoners for the 250 hostages leading to 0 additional deaths and no escalating violence + renewed diplomacy and a strict ceasefire ensuring the protection of innocents on both sides = solution.

 

But look how messy things are getting now.

And any violence is 100% the fault of Hamas. The cowards should surrender but instead they hide behind skirts, babies, and the sick. 

[King Heffy]

14 minutes ago, Super19 said:

6,000 prisoners for the 250 hostages leading to 0 additional deaths and no escalating violence + renewed diplomacy and a strict ceasefire ensuring the protection of innocents on both sides = solution.

 

But look how messy things are getting now.

Releasing 6000 terrorists and negotiation with Hamas is not a solution.

[Alflives]

Just now, King Heffy said:

Releasing 6000 terrorists and negotiation with Hamas is not a solution.

Release 6000 terrorists just means the good people in Gaza have to suffer more. The Israeli soldiers and the Israeli hostages are making the ultimate sacrifice in order for the good people of Gaza to be free. It’s a tragic irony.