Hamas attacking Israel

[Odd.]

5 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

In the other cases investigated, the security forces killed boys after they had joined other youths confronting Israeli forces with stones, Molotov cocktails, or fireworks.

 

Sounds like self defence to me. Is this all you got?  How about the babies?  How many have they killed and beheaded?  

You think a Molotov cocktail thrown over a damn fence from 50 yards is going to do anything against a group of soldiers with literal anti vehicles and vests designed to absorbs bullets and shrapnel?

 

 

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Odd.

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

In the other cases investigated, the security forces killed boys after they had joined other youths confronting Israeli forces with stones, Molotov cocktails, or fireworks.

 

Sounds like self defence to me. Is this all you got?  How about the babies?  How many have they killed and beheaded?  

Its objective fact HAMAS targeted and  murdered innocent people in this attack. There is no inarguable fact that Israelis forces invade, target, murder, and hold hostage innocent children, women, and elderly people like HAMAS just did. 

[Elias Pettersson]

1 hour ago, eeeeeeeeergh said:

Here you go, in writing

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMahon–Hussein_Correspondence#:~:text=The McMahon–Hussein Correspondence is,Revolt against the Ottoman Empire.

Where does it say in those writings that the Palestinians should receive more than 38% of the land?  

[Alflives]

CBC now reporting that rockets are being fired into Israel from Lebanon and Syria. This war is going to get bigger very fast. The US will soon get involved. Then Iran will respond. The result is going to be a lot of the Middle East will be a war zone. 

[24K]

1 minute ago, Alflives said:

Its objective fact HAMAS targeted and  murdered innocent people in this attack. There is no inarguable fact that Israelis forces invade, target, murder, and hold hostage innocent children, women, and elderly people like HAMAS just did. 

No but not giving a F about innocent children, women, and elderly like the IDF have done in their planned operations is probably just a step or two below that. 

 

Both needs to be condemned. Not gonna argue Hamas more so. 

[Alflives]

Just now, 24K said:

No but not giving a F about innocent children, women, and elderly like the IDF have done in their planned operations is probably just a step or two below that. 

 

Both needs to be condemned. Not gonna argue Hamas more so. 

Israel does not target innocent children and women. HAMAS clearly does. Israel does not bold host page innocent women and children and brutalize them. HAMAS does. Those are inarguable facts. Shutting reasons for behaviour is subjective. 

[Elias Pettersson]

2 minutes ago, Odd. said:

You think a Molotov cocktail thrown over a damn fence from 50 yards is going to do anything against a group of soldiers with literal anti vehicles and vests designed to absorbs bullets and shrapnel?

 

 

 

I personally know of people who have been killed from fireworks. 
 

In any event, firing on kids after they have thrown fireworks at you is a lot different than beheading babies. 

[Ilunga]

1 minute ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

Yes I read the articles.

 

Yes those kids where killed after being targeted in the moment.

Fuck off with the parents talking shit part.

 

Yes I have kids.

 

I am aware that IDF have done atrocious things to the Palestinians. However I am also confident that at no time senior Israeli commanders have sat around and made plans to specifically kill children and civilians. Hamas has done exactly that though. Fighting terrorists that use civilians as shields gets messy.

 

Well my moral compass is somewhat different than yours.

Targeting kids full stop is a crime against humanity as far as I am concerned. 

 

You can be confident all you like, however you don't know for a fact.

 

Can you state with  certainty that the religious fanatic settlers have made no plans to kill children ?

 

If you think there is a difference in your child being killed accidentally on purpose, or on purpose, is less painful to a parent, then I don't know what to say to you. 

 

The fact of the matter is that a lot more Palestinian children had been killed up until this conflict that is happening now.

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Elias Pettersson said:

I personally know of people who have been killed from fireworks. 
 

In any event, firing on kids after they have thrown fireworks at you is a lot different than beheading babies. 

Yup. What HAMAS did this past weekend was sick and barbaric. No way anyone could argue that fact. 

[24K]

6 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Israel does not target innocent children and women. HAMAS clearly does. Israel does not bold host page innocent women and children and brutalize them. HAMAS does. Those are inarguable facts. Shutting reasons for behaviour is subjective. 

What. I ain't arguing that IDF don't target innocent people. 

 

I am arguing that they don't give a damn about collateral damage if they can get their guy. Being completely oblivious to damage caused in their operations is not excusable either. 

[Playoff Beered]

10 minutes ago, Odd. said:

You think a Molotov cocktail thrown over a damn fence from 50 yards is going to do anything against a group of soldiers with literal anti vehicles and vests designed to absorbs bullets and shrapnel?

 

Yes it will burn them alive if it hits them.

[24K]

13 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Where does it say in those writings that the Palestinians should receive more than 38% of the land?  

It literally said with the exception of some part of Turkey and Syria, I have the authority of the British gonvernment to help establish an Arab state in the proposed land bounda8res. If you looked at the map below on that page it clearly include most of the Palestinian mandate. 

[Junkyard Dog]

So do you guys think there's a world where Israel is able to work with the PLO to get rid of Hamas and perhaps get some neighbouring nations to renounce their support of Hamas?

 

In turn Israel would agree to allow control of Gaza to the PLO, end the blockade(after creating stability with the PLO following the removal of Hamas) and allow humanitarian aid to flow more freely following the stability created, Israel agreeing to remove or conceding(to the PLO which in turn could help the displaced Palestinians) the illegal settlements in the West Bank and Israel being a primary contributor(I am sure there would be tons of international support as well) to help fund the reconstruction of Gaza(following Hamas' defeat)?

 

Do you guys think the PLO and certain neighbouring nations like Saudi could agree to terms like these?

[Elias Pettersson]

41 minutes ago, Odd. said:

It’s not just Palestine. Israel is and has been involved and responsible for oppression throughout history all over the globe.

 

off the top my head: funding the Hutu militia to commit one the worst genocides in our history in Rwanda. Using Israel made weapons.

 

Strong allies to the South African apartheid regime. Funded again Israel made weapons and armoury to participate in the ethnic cleansing of the native black people. Supporting Zionist leaders who put Nelson Mandela to life in prison and actively engaged in propaganda to affectively keep apartheid alive.

 

The Sebrenica genocide. Israel trained and again provided weaponry to Serbian forces to exterminate my people in Bosnia. Participated in an ethnic cleansing of 500000 Bosnian-Croatians. They harboured war criminals who were involved in mass rapes and torture and gave them israeli citizenship.

 

I am anti Zionist. Throughout history Israel has continued to be on the wrong side of history. Fuck that

 

If you hate Israel then you must really hate the USA. They have done much worse. How many Japanese did they kill with their nuclear bombs?  How many people did they kill in Iraq?  Vietnam?  

Edited October 11, 2023 by Elias Pettersson

[Ilunga]

27 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

In the other cases investigated, the security forces killed boys after they had joined other youths confronting Israeli forces with stones, Molotov cocktails, or fireworks.

 

Sounds like self defence to me. Is this all you got?  How about the babies?  How many have they killed and beheaded?  

 

So you think shooting and killing a child, and that's what a teenager is, is a proper response for that child throwing a stone at you ?

[Playoff Beered]

19 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

Well my moral compass is somewhat different than yours.

Targeting kids full stop is a crime against humanity as far as I am concerned. 

 

You can be confident all you like, however you don't know for a fact.

 

Can you state with  certainty that the religious fanatic settlers have made no plans to kill children ?

 

If you think there is a difference in your child being killed accidentally on purpose, or on purpose, is less painful to a parent, then I don't know what to say to you. 

 

The fact of the matter is that a lot more Palestinian children had been killed up until this conflict that is happening now.

 

Calm down please with the accusations of moral disparity, off coarse I think targeting kids is a crime of the highest order.

 

No I don't know for a fact, but like I said I'm confident. Yes some war crimes have been committed, I just don't think it's official policy.

 

If these fanatic settlers are doing that then send them to jail for life.

 

I'm not going on that tangent with you. It's got nothing to do with what I'm saying.

 

This is true, but not because senior IDF officers are making plans to specifically target kids. Unlike Hamas who specifically target kids.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Playoff Beered

[Elias Pettersson]

5 minutes ago, 24K said:

It literally said with the exception of some part of Turkey and Syria, I have the authority of the British gonvernment to help establish an Arab state in the proposed land bounda8res. If you looked at the map below on that page it clearly include most of the Palestinian mandate. 

The area of Arab independence was defined to be "in the limits and boundaries proposed by the Sherif of Mecca" with the exception of "portions of Syria" lying to the west of "the districts of Damascus, Homs, Hamaand Aleppo"; conflicting interpretations of this description were to cause great controversy in subsequent years. One particular dispute, which continues to the present,[7] is the extent of the coastal exclusion.[7][c]

 

That doesn’t sound like a very clear statement to me.

 

In any event, if I’m the owner I can do what I want and change my mind.  I’ve dealt with enough business people in my life to know this. 

[Playoff Beered]

.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Playoff Beered

[24K]

4 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

So do you guys think there's a world where Israel is able to work with the PLO to get rid of Hamas and perhaps get some neighbouring nations to renounce their support of Hamas?

 

In turn Israel would agree to allow control of Gaza to the PLO, end the blockade(after creating stability with the PLO following the removal of Hamas) and allow humanitarian aid to flow more freely following the stability created, Israel agreeing to remove or conceding(to the PLO which in turn could help the displaced Palestinians) the illegal settlements in the West Bank and Israel being a primary contributor(I am sure there would be tons of international support as well) to help fund the reconstruction of Gaza(following Hamas' defeat)?

 

Do you guys think the PLO and certain neighbouring nations like Saudi could agree to terms like these?

The major sticking point in my opinion is that Gaza and the west bank are completely separated. Zero land, air, or maritime crossing that would not involve having to go through Israel. That is a major leverage Israel will have against the a Palanstiaian state with current borders. 

 

Palestine can't really just give up on Gaza either as that would leave them as a land locked country. 

 

So really the solution would be Israel and/or surrounding countries cede land to Palestine to create a land bridge to Gaza but that is a hard sale for anyone country. 

 

But if it can get to that point and especially with waning oil revenues in the coming decades, other Arab nations would probably want to just make peace instead if burning money in these conflicts. 

[Elias Pettersson]

1 minute ago, Ilunga said:

 

So you think shooting and killing a child, and that's what a teenager is, is a proper response for that child throwing a stone at you ?

Molotov cocktails and fireworks can be very dangerous my friend. Also, why are these kids throwing stuff at soldiers?  Do your kids do that?  
 

I’ve seen teenagers killed on the street for doing much less. It’s a pretty despicable place we live in sometimes. 
 

I do not condone the killing of women and children no matter the circumstances. However, these whataboutisms in this thread aren’t really going to solve the current situation. 
 

Maybe we should all focus on today and what is happening right now versus what happened 20, 30, 50 years ago. 

[Odd.]

7 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

If you hate Israel then you must really hate the USA. They have done much worse. How many Japanese did they kill with their nuclear bombs?  How many people did they kill in Iraq?  Vietnam?  

You’re exactly right. I do. Especially when they’ve made 0 preparations.

 

What is your point anyways? Is that your way of desensitizing the apartheid happening in Israel?

[24K]

5 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

The area of Arab independence was defined to be "in the limits and boundaries proposed by the Sherif of Mecca" with the exception of "portions of Syria" lying to the west of "the districts of Damascus, Homs, Hamaand Aleppo"; conflicting interpretations of this description were to cause great controversy in subsequent years. One particular dispute, which continues to the present,[7] is the extent of the coastal exclusion.[7][c]

 

That doesn’t sound like a very clear statement to me.

 

In any event, if I’m the owner I can do what I want and change my mind.  I’ve dealt with enough business people in my life to know this. 

Dude there are letters before that with maps that define the area. This ain't the only one.

 

Yes you may be able to do what you want but that doesn't mean the Arabs should just take it like you suggested. 

 

You do this kind of thing in business, you burn bridges and consequences will follow. Well we see the consequences now don't we. 

[Ilunga]

1 minute ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

Calm down please with the accusations of moral disparity, off coarse I think targeting kids is a crime of the highest order.

 

No I don't know for a fact, but like I said I'm confident. Some war crimes have been committed, I just don't think it's official policy.

 

I'm not going on that tangent with you. It's got nothing to do with what I'm saying.

 

This is true, but not because senior IDF officers are making plans to specifically target kids.

 

Personally I don't see the difference in people killing children.

 

Killing a child is a crime against humanity.

 

As I have already stated, if my child was killed, I wouldn't be asking questions about collateral damage.

I actually find that term offensive,it was invented by lawyers, reduces the killing of civilians to abstraction, and also a way of justifying the death of innocent people.

[moosehead]

39 minutes ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

Yes I read the articles.

 

Yes those kids where killed after being targeted in the moment.

Fuck off with the parents talking shit part.

 

Yes I have kids.

 

I am aware that IDF have done atrocious things to the Palestinians. However I am also confident that at no time senior Israeli commanders have sat around and made plans to specifically kill children and civilians. Hamas has done exactly that though. Fighting terrorists that use civilians as shields gets messy.

 

I would argue that the Israeli  targeted bombing of Palestinian residential buildings is pretty much targeting women and children.    But you can keep insisting that only one side kills innocent civilians if that make you feel better.   There is more than enough blame in this conflict for both sides.    Yes Hamas are barbaric animals with no human decency and need to be held accountable.       Holding Hamas accountable  is all fine and dandy but in the big picture the world needs to encourage both sides to settle this dispute.  The human suffering is terrible for civilians on both sides. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by moosehead

[Sharpshooter]

54 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Didn’t that episode end with the two last survivors of their peoples still trying to kill each other? 

I believe they left the ship, to continue their fight, endlessly.