Hamas attacking Israel

[StrayDog]

11 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Is a military raid taking hostages for the purposes of a prisoner swap, landing in a field where there was a music festival unbeknownst to them, and engaging in a firefight with IDF soldiers with innocents in the way and IDF crossfire and IDF unforced errors were occurred deserving condemnation for Hamas? Yes. Is it commendable? No. Is it terrorism just like how Israel is responding in Gaza rn? Yes. Is it a messed up and violent resistance to Israeli oppression and occupation? Yes. Do I think Israel deserves to clap back? Yes. To this extent? No. Is any other military reaction possible without causing this much damage? Very unlikely. Does Hamas want to kill all Jews? No. Do they want to destroy Israel? Yes - is that deserving of condemnation - of course. Is Israel destroying Gaza? Yes. Is Israel killing large amounts of women and children at an unprecedented rate in modern warfare? Yes. Is Israel displacing the population? Yes. Does it look like Israel is actually commiting genocide? YES. Scholars and experts agree.

 

Now show the proofs so I can change/adjust my opinion of what Hamas and Israel is and isnt guilty of and why I'm so villianfied for calling for an immediate ceasefire, accountability for both sides, and a diplomatic solution. THIS is what im supporting. The Palestinians are at great peril here.

Thanks for that. My challenge to your opinion has all along been the fact that you have refused to call Hamas "terrorists". You can barely do it here (and I feel I'm being generous is saying you did it). Even in the bolded part of your reply, (along with pretty much all of your reply) you are incapable of condemning Hamas without also damning Israel, and being more vitriolic about it. This is why I, and others, have a hard time believing you're interested in peace and are more about defending the poor, downtrodden Hamas resistance fighters. You simply cannot condemn Hamas on its own. I don't need to show you proof about your own actions; they exist throughout this thread. 

[Super19]

30 minutes ago, StrayDog said:

Thanks for that. My challenge to your opinion has all along been the fact that you have refused to call Hamas "terrorists". You can barely do it here (and I feel I'm being generous is saying you did it). Even in the bolded part of your reply, (along with pretty much all of your reply) you are incapable of condemning Hamas without also damning Israel, and being more vitriolic about it. This is why I, and others, have a hard time believing you're interested in peace and are more about defending the poor, downtrodden Hamas resistance fighters. You simply cannot condemn Hamas on its own. I don't need to show you proof about your own actions; they exist throughout this thread. 

I don't need that. I want you to show proof of what I asked for from Oct 7 which was the catalyst for this Israeli military operation and the ongoing fuel for many to not support a ceasefire until "the job is done" which implies certain genocide and ethnic cleansing at this rate, undeniably, and you're not willing to listen to the scholars and experts who say as much. There's hours of content being released on an ongoing basis for the past 60 days as Israel commits crime after crime with no repercussions (Except for that one guy the IDF condemned for being an idiot in a Gaza mosque today)

[Bob Long]

2 hours ago, Super19 said:

The problem is people taking tweets and news from one side, stating it as evidence when it's not, and using it to justify what Israel is doing right now.

 

22,000 bombs dropped on Gaza? Well Hamas shouldn't have burned babies en masse. Okay, where's the proof?

 

Gazans are suffering? Well Hamas shouldn't have killed all those babies and pregnant women. Okay, where's the proof?

 

Testimonies from Israelis are more factual than Palestenians? This can surely be debated but is it evidence and proof for either side on these?

 

Hamas breaking into Israel, taking hostages, killing IDF soldiers and innocents in the way. Innocents who were also fired at by the IDF due to forced errors btw. Horrendous. Horrible. I condemn Hamas for that. But Israel making up shocking lies to fuel the even worse atrocities they're commiting in Gaza rn is even worse.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong with sources showing the proof.

 

 

people are also using manufactured bs to justify Hamas too. This is the problem, you can't decipher whats real and whats crap anymore. 

 

 

[Alflives]

14 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

people are also using manufactured bs to justify Hamas too. This is the problem, you can't decipher whats real and whats crap anymore. 

 

 

Hamas posted their doctrine/charter. They want those who don’t think like they do (pretty much) dead. The IDF are doing a job that must be done. Hamas must be completely eliminated. I feel for the brave IDF soldiers. It’s an awful job what they’re doing. And when they are done in Gaza then those people there will be free. We will see a lot of countries coming in and building Gaza up. There will be lots of opportunities for the Gaza people. But Hamas must be eliminated first. 

[RomanPer]

4 hours ago, billydakid said:

I always find it interesting to see how people are always wanting to take a 'side', good guy bad guy type thing.

I think most of this is due to ignorance (and not calling you ignorant, people in general) of the deep issues involved in conflicts all over the world, the media and how they 'spin it' is a big part, as they never tell the truth of issues.

 

There seems to be a lack of understanding that often both sides can be to blame / its alot more complicated that people want to admit. One can say Netenyahu (sp) is a war monger who thrives on this, and in fact many Jewish people say the same. At the same time, you can also recognize, Hamas is a terrorist group backed (apparently) by over 80% of their population. Hamas's goals are no different than Hitler, they want to wipe Israel and Jews off the map, as does Iran.

 

It's not until people are willing to accept both those statements, can we find a path to peace.

 

Moreover, people in Canada, harassing Jews, their businesses, chanting to the river to the sea, tearing down posters are generally some of the most ignorant and vile people in this country, and do not stand for Canadian values. No one here / not in govt in Israel has any impact on the events there. Harassing people in the west is bigoted and racist. I honestly think many of these people are too stupid to even know what they're calling for, that or they are happily anti-semitic. As an example, many in the LGBTQ+ community seem to be cheering for Hamas, to me the level of ignorance that shows is unbelievable. They should go to Gaza, Hamas will throw them off buildings or cut their heads off for being gay etc.....the absurdity is only lost on them.  The same holds for harassing muslims and islamaphobia.

 

You can empathize with civilians in Palestine and what they've been through, but still call out Hamas for their terrorism. This seems to be something that is missed by many in the west who just want to be involved in the new "Social Justice Warrior Thing" online.

 

I am muslim by the way and my wife is Jewish. So I think I have a reasonable view into this.

 

Salam aleikum, habibi! We have a lot of things in common, but the most important one - we both have Jewish wives   

[StrayDog]

1 hour ago, Super19 said:

I don't need that. I want you to show proof of what I asked for from Oct 7 which was the catalyst for this Israeli military operation and the ongoing fuel for many to not support a ceasefire until "the job is done" which implies certain genocide and ethnic cleansing at this rate, undeniably, and you're not willing to listen to the scholars and experts who say as much. There's hours of content being released on an ongoing basis for the past 60 days as Israel commits crime after crime with no repercussions (Except for that one guy the IDF condemned for being an idiot in a Gaza mosque today)

Why should I try to show proof? Others already have and you dismissed it as IDF propaganda. Yet you want everyone to believe that anything Hamas says is 100% fact. You can't even bring yourself to call them "terrorists". To you they are "resistance fighters", as if attacking a music festival is somehow part of a noble cause. They haven't done a single thing that paints them as anything other than terrorists. 

[Alflives]

24 minutes ago, StrayDog said:

Why should I try to show proof? Others already have and you dismissed it as IDF propaganda. Yet you want everyone to believe that anything Hamas says is 100% fact. You can't even bring yourself to call them "terrorists". To you they are "resistance fighters", as if attacking a music festival is somehow part of a noble cause. They haven't done a single thing that paints them as anything other than terrorists. 

Hsmas are cowards too. They hide behind women, children, and the ill. 

[Optimist Prime]

3 hours ago, StrayDog said:

It was a UN resolution to end the ceasefire hours before it was due to end?

The US has also stated it vetoed the UN ceasefire because the resolution put forth did not condemn Hamas' terrorist actions on Oct 7.

I am hearing Bob Rae was showing his NDP roots with that vote and will either be recalled or retired in 2024 for not fighting to include a chastisement of hamas in the same statement.

[billydakid]

2 hours ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

This conflict is actually a much simpler thing that people are making it out to be. It has nothing to do with the history of the region or who did what however many years ago. Its simple and can be applied to any group. The leadership of Party A launched an attack against and killed over 1000 civilians in an attack specifically targeting civilians. Party B in response is aiming to destroy the leadership of Party A and anyone supporting them. Any group that does what party A in this formula did would get a similar response from any nation on the planet that is capable of defending itself. It doesnt matter how much support the civilian population of party A has for the government or the attack, if they get in the way of the retaliation, they die. Western civilization and Israel are far more merciful towards civilians than they have any right to expect, most countries would be aiming to kill as many civilians as possible after being attacked like that. People who expect an enemy army to risk their lives to defend their enemies civilians are idiots. The civilians were told to evacuate, anyone killed in those areas that didnt evacuate only have themselves (or Hamas if they werent allowed to evacuate by them) to blame. Anyone who knows there are Hamas members nearby should be moving the fuck away from them, not giving them cover.

 

Its funny, prior to Oct 7th i would have considered myself on the Palestinian side of the conflict, I felt Israel needed to take steps to make peace in the region. I didnt really give a damn about Israel and would have continued to think that the Israeli government was in the wrong. Now though, even though I disagree with what they were doing before Oct 7th, I fully support their response and in fact would support a far greater level of force used. I consider anyone who speaks about forcing a ceasefire to be a supporter of terrorism. It has really opened my eyes how stupid some of the people on my side of the political spectrum are, I thought the people on the right were making shit up when they talked about some of this stuff on the left. I guess the next election is going to be about which type of evil you support and which type you oppose because there certainly arent any good guys anymore in this country.

I think what you may be realizing is all sides often try to push their narrative as being the moral one, despite facts, and as such many people in either camp will assume those narratives to be true and not question it.

 

When you decide you don't stand on a side, but rather stand on principle, whatever the issue, war, elections, covid etc, you start looking deeper. And when you look deeper and question, you often learn, as you have, that people are preying on one's allegiance to their side for their support, irrespective of values and morals and importantly, truth.

 

I don't have a side, I am politically homeless as they say now, and it has woken me up to a great deal of how we are lied to and manipulated. We need better people leading countries, actual leaders.

 

 

Edited December 15, 2023 by billydakid

[Bob Long]

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

Hamas posted their doctrine/charter. They want those who don’t think like they do (pretty much) dead. The IDF are doing a job that must be done. Hamas must be completely eliminated. I feel for the brave IDF soldiers. It’s an awful job what they’re doing. And when they are done in Gaza then those people there will be free. We will see a lot of countries coming in and building Gaza up. There will be lots of opportunities for the Gaza people. But Hamas must be eliminated first. 

 

which is why its so sad to see someone like the president of Harvard having to be forced to barely acknowledge how bad Oct 7 was. Warhippy got mad at me for my suggesting the left has lost the plot, but there's ample evidence for it. 

 

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, billydakid said:

I think what you may be realizing is all sides often try to push their narrative as being the moral one, despite facts, and as such many people in either camp will assume those narratives to be true and not question it.

 

When you decide you don't stand on a side, but rather stand on principle, whatever the issue, war, elections, covid etc, you start looking deeper. And when you look deeper and question, you often learn, as you have, that people are preying on one's allegiance to their side for their support, irrespective of values and morals and importantly, truth.

 

I don't have a side, I am politically homeless as they say now, and it has woken me up to a great deal of how we are lied to and manipulated. We need better people leading countries, actual leaders.

 

 

You do realize Hamas, in their own published charter, want a world caliphate and for those who don’t think like them to be eliminated, right? 
There are absolutely sides in this. There’s Hsmas and everyone who doesn’t think like them. 
 

[billydakid]

Just now, Alflives said:

You do realize Hamas, in their own published charter, want a world caliphate and for those who don’t think like them to be eliminated, right? 
There are absolutely sides in this. There’s Hsmas and everyone who doesn’t think like them. 
 

I've made my position clear earlier. Please read it for context...You're responding to a part of what I have said and clearly haven't taken the time to read the post I am discussing with this other person.

 

Thanks

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Bob Long said:

 

which is why its so sad to see someone like the president of Harvard having to be forced to barely acknowledge how bad Oct 7 was. Warhippy got mad at me for my suggesting the left has lost the plot, but there's ample evidence for it. 

 

Alf doesn’t understand why anyone would support a group that wants you dead? Makes no sense. That Harvard professor would be tossed off a roof top by Hamas. 

[Bob Long]

Just now, Alflives said:

Alf doesn’t understand why anyone would support a group that wants you dead? Makes no sense. That Harvard professor would be tossed off a roof top by Hamas. 

 

yep she would. She seems to me, and its just my opinion, to be in the "Israel deserved it" camp. 

 

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, billydakid said:

I've made my position clear earlier. Please read it for context...You're responding to a part of what I have said and clearly haven't taken the time to read the post I am discussing with this other person.

 

Thanks

All our posts in the open forums are for everyone. Start a private discussion if that’s your expectation.

Hsmas is evil. They hate us and would happily murder us, our families, and our friends for not thinking like them. 

[billydakid]

1 minute ago, Alflives said:

All our posts in the open forums are for everyone. Start a private discussion if that’s your expectation.

Hsmas is evil. They hate us and would happily murder us, our families, and our friends for not thinking like them. 

Go read my post

 

 

And ya the posts are open forums.. but don't start an argument with someone who's points you're not even reading

 

My god

Edited December 15, 2023 by billydakid

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, billydakid said:

Go read my post

My god what a child

 

[RomanPer]

7 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

yep she would. She seems to me, and its just my opinion, to be in the "Israel deserved it" camp. 

 

 

Just saw a great meme: "If it looks like a duck, walks like a ducks and quacks like a duck - then it depends on the context"  

[Gnarcore]

1 hour ago, RomanPer said:

 

Salam aleikum, habibi! We have a lot of things in common, but the most important one - we both have Jewish wives   

I have Jewish exes. Does that count? 

[Optimist Prime]

8 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

Just saw a great meme: "If it looks like a duck, walks like a ducks and quacks like a duck - then it depends on the context"  

Could be a rabbit.

[Canuck Surfer]

Better than knocking whole buildings down!

 

 

[Optimist Prime]

5 hours ago, Gnarcore said:

I have Jewish exes. Does that count? 

I got kicked out of an ancient chapel at the Mount of beatitudes by a hundred year old nun with a boney finger for washing my brow with the baptismal font water. It was hot and musty and I thought it was for freshening up. But no Jewish ex's.

[Optimist Prime]

1 hour ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Better than knocking whole buildings down!

 

 

I was go8ng to say, when people talk about buildings destroyed by the IDF in Gaza, thus is why it had to be destroyed: hamas sniper. Early in the war it was hamas rocket forces on rooftops. The critics of the bombing ignore WHY it happens.

[Super19]

Yeah, all the Israeli bombs have been super precise and accurate. Thankyou Israeli army for showing your humanity in this tough job you have to do. /sarcasm

[Super19]

What happens when you drop bunker bombs, 2,500lb bombs, bombs that are meant to be used on warships, into residential neighborhoods? 

 

Children don't do well with the enormous shockwaves emitted. It damages their little organs, kills them without leaving scratches or amputations. Israel has no effing right to be dropping these bombs.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Super19