Hamas attacking Israel

[bishopshodan]

9 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

On only the one day of Oct 7th 2023 hamas fired over 5000 dumb bombs at israel, talking about the number of dumb bombs really shows how little folks know about enfilade, defilade, arc of fire, and the assorted logistics of aiming weapons systems. if Israel has fired 22000 dumb bombs at Gaza, that would seem to me to be roughly equivalent to the number of dumb rockets Hamas has fired at Israel over the last ten weeks. Just food for thought, not every catch phrase we hear is all that important. 

 

Also of note, 22000 dumb bombs and less than 20,000 dead Gazanz. This number includes Hamas operatives. Less than one dead per dumb bomb seems to be a well orchestrated effort to not kill civilians.

 

Everyone's fav, CNN, was claiming that these dumb bombs have a 45% accuracy. 

The guy from Isreal on their show claimed Isreal has new techniques that make the accuracy better in some way.

[Super19]

Israeli has the Iron Dome system which intercepts 99% of the rockets coming in Israel from Gaza. So these unguided rockets coming in are being intercepted 99% of the time. Also, these rockets are puny. Very inexpensive. Rarely land and when they do, does not inflict the damage Israeli bombs cause - nowhere near.

 

It's economic warfare. The munitions for the Iron Dome cost 10x more than the dumb rockets they are intercepting. And when these rockets flood the Iron Dome system as they have, the Iron Dome quickly needs to use AI to figure out which rockets to target as during these floods it will not cover them all. This flooding is also costly due to the cheap rockets coming in and the expensive defense system intercepting it.

 

Also, dumb bombs are unguided, so when the munitions leave the aircraft they basically just fall where they may. The guided munitions are the ones used to target schools, hospitals, civillian infrastructure. Basically the nearly half of the strikes Israel do and all of the ones Hamas do are let the chips fall where they may.

[Super19]

21 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

 

Very good point.

Sad to see such tribal views on everything.

 

What side is someone on that wants a prolonged ceasefire for aid to reach more people? and if needed an adjusted, less deadly for civilians, appraoch by Isreal...

 

I know the terroists that are Hamas will do their subhuman things but Isreal has to be better, has to find a better way. They have all the money and tech, I believe they can conduct operations and influence differently.  

 

 

I'm with you. From the get go I've said Israel is justified to respond. But didn't think it'd be like this. And certainly now, actually overdue, I think more than enough damage has been done. As things are getting worse and worse and messier. The war crimes and crimes against humanity continue. The escalations are happening.

 

It's clear for this military operation to continue there's no other way than a collective punishment. Or enforced displacement of a people from their land, most of whom who don't want to leave but rather just want their basic human rights in their land.

[Super19]

It's sad a child has to say these things. It's her home. Where she grew up. All she knows. She's been living in the so called "open air prison" . She's been faced with a blockade for all her life. Her family have certainly been through several wars. And now the children of Gaza are in their worst chapter.

 

Is this lost on people that support the "awful and difficult" job the IDF has to do from dropping dumb bombs. Powerful bombs. Bombs that send shockwaves so strong the organs from these children cannot handle, they internally bleed and die. Or the bombs that leave dust from the rubble in the air, they they breathe in. Shrapnel. Rubble. Destruction. It's not humane.

[Yoshiyoshi]

1 hour ago, Super19 said:

Are the 152 other nations who voted for a ceasefire, the same vote Russia made, on the wrong side of an issue as well? 152 nations?! For not voting the opposite of Russia?

Yes, not because they voted the same as Russia, but because they are supporting terrorism in the name of saving lives. I despise people who think that saving lives is more important than improving the quality of those lives. Condemning people to poverty and starvation is not helping anyone and the longer you put off fixing the source of the problem, the more suffering there will be overall.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Yoshiyoshi

[Bob Long]

1 hour ago, Super19 said:

Are the 152 other nations who voted for a ceasefire, the same vote Russia made, on the wrong side of an issue as well? 152 nations?! For not voting the opposite of Russia?

 

tbh I don't really care about much that goes on anymore with UN votes or condemnations. If you read some of the things they say about Canada, it shows you there's a lot of bias going on there. The security council is a bad joke.

 

We should spend a bit more time in this thread on the influence of Iran and Russia on the current situation and whats to come. If Gaza is just going to be at the whim of Iran-backed terrorists then what was the point of all this?

 

[Yoshiyoshi]

50 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

 

Very good point.

Sad to see such tribal views on everything.

 

What side is someone on that wants a prolonged ceasefire for aid to reach more people? and if needed an adjusted, less deadly for civilians, approach by Isreal...

 

I know the terroists that are Hamas will do their subhuman things but Isreal has to be better, has to find a better way. They have all the money and tech, I believe they can conduct operations and influence differently.  

 

 

A ceasefire has to be agreed to by both sides. You cant force it without an occupation force which does not exist. While it is a nice idea to want to help more people, when that aid also aids the terrorists, at what point is it doing more harm than good? I dont know of any sort of math that can figure out the answer to that so I cant decide that point. If you know it then please present it for us. The second point, making the conflict less deadly for civilians, how exactly do you go about that, do you expect Israel to send soldiers into combat and then require them to not fight in case they might hurt someone? Soldiers are not police, war is not a police action. Soldiers need to react quickly or they die. If someone looks like a threat they get shot before its confirmed, probably how the hostages that were killed by the IDF died.

 

Why does Israel have to be better? Why are they being held to a higher standard than anyone else? Technology can do amazing things but it isnt magic, and money can only do so much. In the end it is the soldiers on the ground that have to go into the tunnels and buildings and clear them.

[Super19]

10 minutes ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

Yes, not because they voted the same as Russia, but because they are supporting terrorism in the name of saving lives. I despise people who think that saving lives is more important than improving the quality of those lives. Condemning people to poverty and starvation is not helping anyone and the longer you put off fixing the source of the problem, the more suffering there will be overall.

Israel is the one who enforces blockades on Gaza.

 

CNN just posted most recently Israeli soldiers buring food in Gaza...

[Bob Long]

2 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Israel is the one who enforces blockades on Gaza.

 

 

not much choice, when Hamas uses aid to fund its terror groups. 

 

Again, whats coming next? more Iran meddling? some permanent state of blue helmets keeping the peace? 

[bishopshodan]

8 minutes ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

A ceasefire has to be agreed to by both sides. You cant force it without an occupation force which does not exist. While it is a nice idea to want to help more people, when that aid also aids the terrorists, at what point is it doing more harm than good? I dont know of any sort of math that can figure out the answer to that so I cant decide that point. If you know it then please present it for us. The second point, making the conflict less deadly for civilians, how exactly do you go about that, do you expect Israel to send soldiers into combat and then require them to not fight in case they might hurt someone? Soldiers are not police, war is not a police action. Soldiers need to react quickly or they die. If someone looks like a threat they get shot before its confirmed, probably how the hostages that were killed by the IDF died.

 

Why does Israel have to be better? Why are they being held to a higher standard than anyone else? Technology can do amazing things but it isnt magic, and money can only do so much. In the end it is the soldiers on the ground that have to go into the tunnels and buildings and clear them.

No I dont have a solution to peace in the ME.

If I did I would be very rich with many international awards. I'll put some thought to it, but no promises.

 

Yes, I would favour sending in troops rather than using mass bombing. I have been around a few ex-IDF and have huge respect for their training. They are some of the very best and have a lot of tech/resources to back them up.

 

I guess Isreal doesnt have to be better... someone already said in this thread that Isreal doesn't care about the worlds support. However, the more heavy handed they are, the more criticism they are likely to recieve.

Edited December 15, 2023 by bishopshodan

[Yoshiyoshi]

6 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Israel is the one who enforces blockades on Gaza.

 

CNN just posted most recently Israeli soldiers buring food in Gaza...

Is it not Egypt that is blockading their side of the border? Not that Israel would be wrong to maintain the blockade

[bishopshodan]

11 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

tbh I don't really care about much that goes on anymore with UN votes or condemnations. If you read some of the things they say about Canada, it shows you there's a lot of bias going on there. The security council is a bad joke.

 

We should spend a bit more time in this thread on the influence of Iran and Russia on the current situation and whats to come. If Gaza is just going to be at the whim of Iran-backed terrorists then what was the point of all this?

 

 

What happens if the US stopped sending arms to Isreal?

 

Bidens support of Isreal seems to be hurting him in the polls...setting up another Trump term. What if the US backs away from Isreal? how much will that hurt them long term?

[Yoshiyoshi]

1 minute ago, bishopshodan said:

No I dont have a solution to peace in the ME.

If I did I would be very rich with many international awards. I'll put some tought to it, but no promises.

 

Yes, I would favour sending in troops rather than using mass bombing. I have been around a few ex-IDF and have huge respect for their training. They are some of the very best and have a lot of tech/resources to back them up.

 

I guess Isreal doesnt have to be better... someone already said in this thread that Isreal doesn't care about the worlds support. However, the more heavy handed they are, the more criticism they are likely to recieve.

Would you be in favor of sending Canadian troops in instead of using bombs? I ask this because it is easy to say that Israel should send in troops as a third party. If it was Canada fighting this war, would you want Canadian troops on the ground risking their lives clearing out buildings and tunnels. Remember that after the war ends, those soldiers will have to live with what they went through, they will make mistakes because civilians are stupid and will do something that makes them look like enemies and get themselves shot. Some of those shot will be children or teenagers programmed by Hamas, they wont know if they are carrying bombs or just rocks, if they have a gun or if its just a stick. The soldiers will have to shoot because if they dont then their squadmates will be in danger. Fighting in a city against an irregular army that doesnt wear uniforms is hell for soldiers and should Israel subject its soldiers to unnecessary risk just to save a few enemy civilians? How many civilians make it worth the cost in Israeli lives? That value is not something a 3rd party can decide. I suggest thinking about it as if it was Canadians and then see if you can come up with a number. For me I would be far more willing to sacrifice enemy civilians over my soldiers, id say at least 20 civilians per Canadian soldier would have to be saved for me to be able to justify it. People say that you cant put a price on human life, but thats exactly what people in charge of countries have to do in order to run them effectively. There is a disconnect between ideology and reality that is resulting in people making the wrong choice about this conflict. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, i believe that is a good saying for this.

[King Heffy]

4 minutes ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

Would you be in favor of sending Canadian troops in instead of using bombs? I ask this because it is easy to say that Israel should send in troops as a third party. If it was Canada fighting this war, would you want Canadian troops on the ground risking their lives clearing out buildings and tunnels. Remember that after the war ends, those soldiers will have to live with what they went through, they will make mistakes because civilians are stupid and will do something that makes them look like enemies and get themselves shot. Some of those shot will be children or teenagers programmed by Hamas, they wont know if they are carrying bombs or just rocks, if they have a gun or if its just a stick. The soldiers will have to shoot because if they dont then their squadmates will be in danger. Fighting in a city against an irregular army that doesnt wear uniforms is hell for soldiers and should Israel subject its soldiers to unnecessary risk just to save a few enemy civilians? How many civilians make it worth the cost in Israeli lives? That value is not something a 3rd party can decide. I suggest thinking about it as if it was Canadians and then see if you can come up with a number. For me I would be far more willing to sacrifice enemy civilians over my soldiers, id say at least 20 civilians per Canadian soldier would have to be saved for me to be able to justify it. People say that you cant put a price on human life, but thats exactly what people in charge of countries have to do in order to run them effectively. There is a disconnect between ideology and reality that is resulting in people making the wrong choice about this conflict. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, i believe that is a good saying for this.

I think the fact that Israeli troops aren't all volunteers shifts the calculus even more in favour of bombs.  At least the Canadian military members signed up willingly knowing this was a possibility.

[Bob Long]

45 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

 

What happens if the US stopped sending arms to Isreal?

 

Bidens support of Isreal seems to be hurting him in the polls...setting up another Trump term. What if the US backs away from Isreal? how much will that hurt them long term?

 

It'll hurt them a lot. Probably lead to a pretty big much wider conflict.

[bishopshodan]

1 hour ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

Would you be in favor of sending Canadian troops in instead of using bombs? I ask this because it is easy to say that Israel should send in troops as a third party. If it was Canada fighting this war, would you want Canadian troops on the ground risking their lives clearing out buildings and tunnels. Remember that after the war ends, those soldiers will have to live with what they went through, they will make mistakes because civilians are stupid and will do something that makes them look like enemies and get themselves shot. Some of those shot will be children or teenagers programmed by Hamas, they wont know if they are carrying bombs or just rocks, if they have a gun or if its just a stick. The soldiers will have to shoot because if they dont then their squadmates will be in danger. 

 

Yes. 

And thank you for saying this.

My cousin did 2 tours in Afghanistan and 1 in Iraq. He was messed for a couple years. Went off around the world with a backpack to get his head together. He spoke of civilians hating them ( Brits). They would make loud bang noises as the troops drove by to mock roadside bombs etc... Once he thought more about what he was doing and why, he turned down the oportunity to try out for the SAS.

One of my best firends, was just talking to him, is ex-US Marine. I hope to work with him in law enforcement soon. He will not talk about what he had to do. He was really shook by his time serving . My brother pressed him once when they were drunk about some details but out of respect for him I wont share. I understand why he had troubles though.

 

Still, my answer is yes. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

 For me I would be far more willing to sacrifice enemy civilians over my soldiers

 

I completely disagree. To me they are not enemy civilians, they are just civilians. Trapped between ambitions of evil leaders. 

I understand that some will unfortunately die. Casualties or war and all that. But never should it be an accepted idea, a percentage.

If soldiers act the same way the bad guys do...what does that make them?

 

1 hour ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

There is a disconnect between ideology and reality that is resulting in people making the wrong choice about this conflict. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, i believe that is a good saying for this.

 

I will cut to the chase and call myself idealistic. I dont care anymore, the way we humans handle conflicts doesn't work.

 

That is why there is no hope for the middle east. In fact eventually there is no hope for humankind.

 

Now, with all that nice stuff said.

Thank you for taking the time to respond to me. I mean it. 

 

Edited December 15, 2023 by bishopshodan

[RomanPer]

5 hours ago, bishopshodan said:

 

Oh, that is what he probably meant.

 

My comment earlier is about what you went on to say. 'There are many Jews right now who are saying "Not in my name". I think these Jewish people and Muslims can relate'

I hope people are not blaming the Jewish religion for the actions of the country of Isreal. Yet, I fear some are.

A few points. Not that many Jews are saying “not in my name”. In reality it’s an extremely small percentage, they are just loud.

 

As for “the whole religion” - Jews are not a religion. Judaism is, but there are a lot of completely secular Jews around. And Hamas and its supporters target all of us, religious or not. I’ll tell you even more - they target those “not in my name” just the same.

[bishopshodan]

11 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

A few points. Not that many Jews are saying “not in my name”. In reality it’s an extremely small percentage, they are just loud.

 

As for “the whole religion” - Jews are not a religion. Judaism is, but there are a lot of completely secular Jews around. And Hamas and its supporters target all of us, religious or not. I’ll tell you even more - they target those “not in my name” just the same.

 

Thanks, I didn't type the 'not in my name' sentence but mentioned to that poster that my point was 'about that '

 

I understand that Judaism is the religion, what I originally posted was...

I feel for Jewish people the world over. That country is casting an unfortunate undeserving shadow on the religion. ....( meaning Judaism)

 

Anyway, I appreciate your very high level knowledge about the subject and dont mean to offend. I know I wont be getting all the particulars correct.

 

In essence I was trying to convey that I feel, as many have pointed out, that anger towards people of that religion may be rising due to the actions of a country. 

[RomanPer]

1 hour ago, bishopshodan said:

 

What happens if the US stopped sending arms to Isreal?

 

Bidens support of Isreal seems to be hurting him in the polls...setting up another Trump term. What if the US backs away from Isreal? how much will that hurt them long term?

How do you think the military cooperation between Israel and the US works? Do you really think that US just ships arms one way? It’s a two way cooperation of two allies. There are numerous military advancements in the US military made possible due to Israeli technology. Also, most of that support is in a form of US government paying to the US defence companies for orders to be delivered to Israel. So, you should as the question differently - how much weaker will US military and defence contractors be if US stops its military support of Israel.

[RomanPer]

2 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

 

Thanks, I didn't type the 'not in my name' sentence but mentioned to that poster that my point was 'about that '

 

I understand that Judaism is the religion, what I originally posted was...

I feel for Jewish people the world over. That country is casting an unfortunate undeserving shadow on the religion. ....( meaning Judaism)

 

Anyway, I appreciate your very high level knowledge about the subject and dont mean to offend. I know I wont be getting all the particulars correct.

 

In essence I was trying to convey that I feel, as many have pointed out, that anger towards people of that religion may be rising due to the actions of a country. 

I can guarantee you one thing - one doesn’t become antisemite due to actions of Israel. A person is either antisemite or not. It’s just that open calls against Israel and Jews now emboldened the antisemites who were quiet otherwise.

[bishopshodan]

1 minute ago, RomanPer said:

How do you think the military cooperation between Israel and the US works? Do you really think that US just ships arms one way? It’s a two way cooperation of two allies. There are numerous military advancements in the US military made possible due to Israeli technology. Also, most of that support is in a form of US government paying to the US defence companies for orders to be delivered to Israel. So, you should as the question differently - how much weaker will US military and defence contractors be if US stops its military support of Israel.

 

Thanks I didn't know that. thats why I asked.

I ask Jimbob lots of stuff. I find him a very smart poster. And in the back of my head I was/am concerned about another run with Trump as POTUS.

 

Unlike some people online I dont pretend to be super duper smart. I have many times over the years claimed I come here to learn. Anyone that has read my posts throughout the years will confirm that.

 

[Yoshiyoshi]

31 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

I completely disagree. To me they are not enemy civilians, they are just civilians. Trapped between ambitions of evil leaders. 

I understand that some will unfortunately die. Casualties or war and all that. But never should it be an accepted idea, a percentage.

If soldiers act the same way the bad guys do...what does that make them?

I guess this is the main point that gives us the different view points. I dont consider civilians innocent of what their leadership does. In my opinion everyone bears at least a small amount of responsibility for the actions of their government. In the end, numbers matter and if the people really didnt support Hamas, they would be able to stop them just through sheer numbers. I just read that Trump is winning in the current polls and that terrifies me. If he does win, everyone who voted for him will be responsible for the harm he causes if he wins.

[RomanPer]

2 hours ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

Yes, not because they voted the same as Russia, but because they are supporting terrorism in the name of saving lives. I despise people who think that saving lives is more important than improving the quality of those lives. Condemning people to poverty and starvation is not helping anyone and the longer you put off fixing the source of the problem, the more suffering there will be overall.

Agree wholeheartedly. Or, as Winston Churchill put it, “if between war and dishonour you choose dishonour, you will get both dishonour and war”.

[bishopshodan]

3 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

I can guarantee you one thing - one doesn’t become antisemite due to actions of Israel. A person is either antisemite or not. It’s just that open calls against Israel and Jews now emboldened the antisemites who were quiet otherwise.

That makes sense.

 

I know I have a hard time understanding Isreals response. But I have no problem if people want to follow any religion. Theyre all silly to me. 

[bishopshodan]

2 minutes ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

I guess this is the main point that gives us the different view points. I dont consider civilians innocent of what their leadership does. In my opinion everyone bears at least a small amount of responsibility for the actions of their government. In the end, numbers matter and if the people really didnt support Hamas, they would be able to stop them just through sheer numbers. I just read that Trump is winning in the current polls and that terrifies me. If he does win, everyone who voted for him will be responsible for the harm he causes if he wins.

 

I dont think Hamas has allowed elections for a long time.

I think a lot of the population is women and children. I dont know how they could stand up to these terrorists. But , you know, I get that info from media ...so I dunno.

 

As for Trump supporters though...they could just choose not to fuck the world/country, as they all have it pretty cushy in comparison.