Hamas attacking Israel

[Yoshiyoshi]

1 minute ago, bishopshodan said:

 

I dont think Hamas has allowed elections for a long time.

I think a lot of the population is women and children. I dont know how they could stand up to these terrorists. But , you know, I get that info from media ...so I dunno.

 

As for Trump supporters though...they could just choose not to fuck the world/country, as they all have it pretty cushy in comparison. 

 

Even without elections, change could be done through force through sheer numbers. Nations dont become democracies without a populace willing to fight to change them. Women are capable of fighting and children in this context also refers to teenagers which human history would say are some of the most violent people among the human race. While i wouldnt expect preteens to fight back, the rest could in the context of removing pockets of Hamas members from refugee camps and hospitals. Thats why mobs are dangerous. Since they dont do this, they dont care enough about the situation to change it. The young are educated by Hamas to become more Hamas and that wont change without force either from within or without, and either way lots of people are going to die because of it. Unfortunately we dont have any superheroes that can save everyone without killing anyone in the process.

[Ilunga]

25 minutes ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

Even without elections, change could be done through force through sheer numbers. Nations dont become democracies without a populace willing to fight to change them. Women are capable of fighting and children in this context also refers to teenagers which human history would say are some of the most violent people among the human race. While i wouldnt expect preteens to fight back, the rest could in the context of removing pockets of Hamas members from refugee camps and hospitals. Thats why mobs are dangerous. Since they dont do this, they dont care enough about the situation to change it. The young are educated by Hamas to become more Hamas and that wont change without force either from within or without, and either way lots of people are going to die because of it. Unfortunately we dont have any superheroes that can save everyone without killing anyone in the process.

 

Very brave thoughts sitting in your safe country, where it's a safe environment to raise your family.

You haven't got people with guns threatening you.

Nobody is stealing your land from you.

Where it's a struggle just to raise your family.

 

Where even members of the people who are oppressing you state they an arpartheid regime. 

 

http://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheid

 

Ex Isreali PM's and other prominent Isrealis

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/05/amnesty-israel-apartheid-israeli-politicians-agree

 

 

Former Mossad chief

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/06/israel-imposing-apartheid-on-palestinians-says-former-mossad-chief

 

I could go on if you want.

 

Who cares about this right ?

The international community has turned a blind eye to this for decades. 

 

Do you care about the fact that arpartheid still exists in the 21st century ?

 

I have already quoted the man, an Israeli, whose work at the Nuremberg war trials formed the basis for international law, Ben Ferenc

" You cannot kill an entrenched ideology with a gun "

" You have to teach compassion and tolerance at a young age "

 

 

And just because it's seems mandatory to state the obvious, I condemn Hamas, their ideology, and the way the want to initiate change.

They are terror organisation that should be neutralized.

The events on October the 7th horrified me.

 

I am also horrified at the number of Palestinian women and children that have been killed since those attacks. 

I am also saddened by the fact that people on this board that I thought were good people seem to think that the killing of women and children is justified. 

People like this are exactly why feuds and circles of hatred continue to exist on this planet.

 

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, bishopshodan said:

 

Thanks I didn't know that. thats why I asked.

I ask Jimbob lots of stuff. I find him a very smart poster. And in the back of my head I was/am concerned about another run with Trump as POTUS.

 

Unlike some people online I dont pretend to be super duper smart. I have many times over the years claimed I come here to learn. Anyone that has read my posts throughout the years will confirm that.

 

 

You are one of, if not the most intelligent poster on this board.

The breadth of your knowledge is amazing my friend. 

 

More importantly you have so much compassion and empathy.  

 

On a side note.

 

Steph won her last 2 fights.

Going to watch her fight for an Australasian title tonight.

She has stepped up to 63kg because the girl that holds the 58kg Aussie title has been dodging her.

[Yoshiyoshi]

11 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Very brave thoughts sitting in your safe country, where it's a safe environment to raise your family.

You haven't got people with guns threatening you.

Nobody is stealing your land from you.

Where it's a struggle just to raise your family.

 

Where even members of the people who are oppressing you state they an arpartheid regime. 

http://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheid

 

Ex Isreali PM's and other prominent Isrealis

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/05/amnesty-israel-apartheid-israeli-politicians-agree

 

 

Former Mossad chief

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/06/israel-imposing-apartheid-on-palestinians-says-former-mossad-chief

 

I could go on if you want.

 

Who cares about this right ?

The international community has turned a blind eye to this for decades. 

 

Do you care about the fact that arpartheid still exists in the 21st century ?

 

I have already quoted the man, an Israeli, whose work at the Nuremberg war trials formed the basis for international law, Ben Ferenc

" You cannot kill an entrenched ideology with a gun "

" You have to teach compassion and tolerance at a young age "

 

 

And just because it's seems mandatory to state the obvious, I condemn Hamas, their ideology, and the way the want to initiate change.

They are terror organisation that should be neutralized.

The events on October the 7th horrified me.

 

I am also horrified at the number of Palestinian women and children that have been killed since those attacks. 

I am also saddened by the fact that people on this board that I thought were good people seem to think that the killing of women and children is justified. 

People like this are exactly why feuds and circles of hatred continue to exist on this planet.

 

Yes it is easy to say, doesnt make it wrong though. In order to have a safe and free environment, there needs to be a large enough percentage of the population willing to fight for that. If there isnt, then you cant create freedom or safety. I wonder how much of the population of my country is still willing to fight for freedom for everyone and hope that we dont see a need for that in my lifetime because i fear that the percentage has dropped below the level necessary to prevent a democracy from turning authoritarian.

 

Im not sure why you are bringing up Apartheid here as Israel isnt in charge of Gaza atm, Hamas is. I know you are passionate about human rights but if you keep changing the target then nothing gets fixed. Right now the target is Gaza, in order for Gaza to be fixed, internally Hamas needs to be destroyed, and those who support them need to be willing to work towards a peaceful solution and not continue the violence against Israel. Israel cannot show any mercy to people who will exploit that mercy to attack them. This war will remove the overt violent elements against them, post war who or whatever takes over Gaza will need to build a system not dedicated to conflict with Israel, the education of children will need to not be designed to incite hatred against jewish people. Israel will have to continue eliminating any armed resistance in Gaza to prevent a resurgence of a Hamas like regime taking control of Gaza. I would also think that they should require the disarmament of Gaza as well.

Quote

" You cannot kill an entrenched ideology with a gun "

" You have to teach compassion and tolerance at a young age "

These quotes, while not wrong, are incomplete as a course of action. Those who choose violence do need to be killed, because not killing them means that they will be able to kill others. It is better that those who want to kill others die instead of those who dont want to kill others. The children need to be taught appropriately, which is not happening in Gaza atm and will not change until Hamas is removed. If you dont remove the source of the problem, you cant teach a better way. Removing the source of the problem is a very violent and difficult task which is why before the Oct 7th attack it was ignored. Now it cant be ignored and lots of people who probably dont deserve to die will die because they are too close to those hurting others.

Quote

I am also saddened by the fact that people on this board that I thought were good people seem to think that the killing of women and children is justified. 

People like this are exactly why feuds and circles of hatred continue to exist on this planet.

Im sorry that you feel that way. Life isnt fair and we do not have the power of gods, so we can only change things with the tools and power that we have. As i said before, we dont have superheros that can fight evil and save everyone, it just isnt possible. The cruel reality is that when violence is needed, it is no longer a choice of killing or not killing, it is a choice of who dies and how many. As ive seen from your previous posts in both this thread and the Ukraine one, you dont agree and I dont know how to convince you.

[Optimist Prime]

4 hours ago, King Heffy said:

I think the fact that Israeli troops aren't all volunteers shifts the calculus even more in favour of bombs.  At least the Canadian military members signed up willingly knowing this was a possibility.

Kandahar Airfield Tim Hortons Sign:

[Optimist Prime]

3 hours ago, RomanPer said:

I can guarantee you one thing - one doesn’t become antisemite due to actions of Israel. A person is either antisemite or not. It’s just that open calls against Israel and Jews now emboldened the antisemites who were quiet otherwise.

just like elections here and in the US. 40% of voters don't, until they do. It is never the same 60% turnout in any election as there was in previous ones. When a particular issue motivates a segment of society, it also demotivates another segment. The loudest voice of the moment is yet another minority who have been motivated to squeak their wheels to try to get some grease. 

[Ilunga]

30 minutes ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

Yes it is easy to say, doesnt make it wrong though. In order to have a safe and free environment, there needs to be a large enough percentage of the population willing to fight for that. If there isnt, then you cant create freedom or safety. I wonder how much of the population of my country is still willing to fight for freedom for everyone and hope that we dont see a need for that in my lifetime because i fear that the percentage has dropped below the level necessary to prevent a democracy from turning authoritarian.

 

Im not sure why you are bringing up Apartheid here as Israel isnt in charge of Gaza atm, Hamas is. I know you are passionate about human rights but if you keep changing the target then nothing gets fixed. Right now the target is Gaza, in order for Gaza to be fixed, internally Hamas needs to be destroyed, and those who support them need to be willing to work towards a peaceful solution and not continue the violence against Israel. Israel cannot show any mercy to people who will exploit that mercy to attack them. This war will remove the overt violent elements against them, post war who or whatever takes over Gaza will need to build a system not dedicated to conflict with Israel, the education of children will need to not be designed to incite hatred against jewish people. Israel will have to continue eliminating any armed resistance in Gaza to prevent a resurgence of a Hamas like regime taking control of Gaza. I would also think that they should require the disarmament of Gaza as well.

These quotes, while not wrong, are incomplete as a course of action. Those who choose violence do need to be killed, because not killing them means that they will be able to kill others. It is better that those who want to kill others die instead of those who dont want to kill others. The children need to be taught appropriately, which is not happening in Gaza atm and will not change until Hamas is removed. If you dont remove the source of the problem, you cant teach a better way. Removing the source of the problem is a very violent and difficult task which is why before the Oct 7th attack it was ignored. Now it cant be ignored and lots of people who probably dont deserve to die will die because they are too close to those hurting others.

Im sorry that you feel that way. Life isnt fair and we do not have the power of gods, so we can only change things with the tools and power that we have. As i said before, we dont have superheros that can fight evil and save everyone, it just isnt possible. The cruel reality is that when violence is needed, it is no longer a choice of killing or not killing, it is a choice of who dies and how many. As ive seen from your previous posts in both this thread and the Ukraine one, you dont agree and I dont know how to convince you.

 

 

Seriously ?

You don't know why I am bringing up the fact that the Palestinian people are victims of arpartheid, and what that means in the context of this dispute that has been going on for 80 odd years.

 

You talk about people attacking people, Isreali settlers and armed forces have been attacking and killing Palestinians for decades.

The settlers even dress up as " soldiers "

beating, urinating on them, sexually them.

 

 

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231020-israel-soldiers-and-settlers-blindfold-beat-urinate-sexually-assault-palestinian-activists-in-west-bank/

 

I could post dozens of articles that illustrate other events like this.

 

Who is choosing violence here ? 

 

Probably don't deserve to die ?

There is never a reason for killing women and children that have nothing to do with the conflict. 

 

Now here is the thing, put yourself in the Palestinian peoples shoes, after all this has happened to you, your land is slowly getting stolen you, how would you feel.

 

I feel compassion and empathy for those people.

They need a Mandela or Ghandi like figure to rally the international community behind them.

Unfortunately ATM they are stuck with really bad examples of human beings as their leaders.

 

Was listening to an interview with a guy, Josh Paul, from the US state department that was responsible for military aid to other countries.

He quit in protest not long after the October 7th attacks because he feels Isreal in not held to the same account as other nations in regards to receiving US military aid.

He pointed out they are the occupying power and how there is lot more bipartisan support for Isreal as an occupying power than there now is for Ukraine who is being occupied. 

 

https://abcnews.go.com/US/former-state-department-official-explains-resigned-us-military/story?id=104173231

 

There is basically two different sets of rules/conditions for US military aid to other countries, Isreals, and everyone else's.  

 

Throwing around euphemisms like life isn't fair ? 

Even though I am going through the worst time of my life, my life is fair compared to the families of the Isreali and Palestinian victims.

[Yoshiyoshi]

44 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

 

Seriously ?

You don't know why I am bringing up the fact that the Palestinian people are victims of arpartheid, and what that means in the context of this dispute that has been going on for 80 odd years.

 

You talk about people attacking people, Isreali settlers and armed forces have been attacking and killing Palestinians for decades.

The settlers even dress up as " soldiers "

beating, urinating on them, sexually them.

 

 

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231020-israel-soldiers-and-settlers-blindfold-beat-urinate-sexually-assault-palestinian-activists-in-west-bank/

 

I could post dozens of articles that illustrate other events like this.

 

Who is choosing violence here ? 

 

Probably don't deserve to die ?

There is never a reason for killing women and children that have nothing to do with the conflict. 

 

Now here is the thing, put yourself in the Palestinian peoples shoes, after all this has happened to you, your land is slowly getting stolen you, how would you feel.

 

I feel compassion and empathy for those people.

They need a Mandela or Ghandi like figure to rally the international community behind them.

Unfortunately ATM they are stuck with really bad examples of human beings as their leaders.

 

Was listening to an interview with a guy, Josh Paul, from the US state department that was responsible for military aid to other countries.

He quit in protest not long after the October 7th attacks because he feels Isreal in not held to the same account as other nations in regards to receiving US military aid.

He pointed out they are the occupying power and how there is lot more bipartisan support for Isreal as an occupying power than there now is for Ukraine who is being occupied. 

 

https://abcnews.go.com/US/former-state-department-official-explains-resigned-us-military/story?id=104173231

 

There is basically two different sets of rules/conditions for US military aid to other countries, Isreals, and everyone else's.  

 

Throwing around euphemisms like life isn't fair ? 

Even though I am going through the worst time of my life, my life is fair compared to the families of the Isreali and Palestinian victims.

I dont know how to respond to this to be honest, its a mess of different things mixed together. You seem to not understand what i said or are choosing not to understand and instead be offended by it.

[Super19]

28 minutes ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

I dont know how to respond to this to be honest, its a mess of different things mixed together. You seem to not understand what i said or are choosing not to understand and instead be offended by it.

It's wrong to be killing this many children. And that is what Israel is doing right now. Full stop. Anything beyond what I just said, is supporting the death of these children. Wether the intent is there or not, it's the factual reality of what is happening. I think you, along with most ITT, seem to think the outcome is justified for whatever reason. 

[Ilunga]

35 minutes ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

I dont know how to respond to this to be honest, its a mess of different things mixed together. You seem to not understand what i said or are choosing not to understand and instead be offended by it.

 

I understand what you are saying, what I am pointing out is causation not just effect.

You are only discussing the effects not wanting to deal with the causation. 

 

The only thing that really offends me is injustice.

In some of your posts you seem to justify injustice. 

 

There is no justification for the killing of women and children full stop... Ever !

 

Posters here posting videos of some Palestinian kids saying horrible things about the Isrealis as if they represent all Palestinians.

Same with the video of the Isreali kids singing a hateful song about the Palestinians.

 

I have yet to see any of the regular posters expression compassion for the innocent Palestinian victims.

And no they are not all Hamas supporters.

As I have posted in the past, some Palestinians have protested against Hamas risking their lives in doing so.

 

If you can't see how what Isreal is doing, is and will create more extremists like Hamas in the future then respectfully I don't know what to say to you. 

 

Just saying, a few radical kids in your town killed some people, did some terrible things to people in another town,would you be okay with people from that town blowing the shit out of your town, and killing people in your town, that had nothing to do with hurting the other town ?

 

 

 

[Yoshiyoshi]

Just now, Ilunga said:

 

I understand what you are saying, what I am pointing out is causation not just effect.

You are only discussing the effects not wanting to deal with the causation. 

 

The only thing that really offends me is injustice.

In some of your posts you seem to justify injustice. 

 

There is no justification for the killing of women and children full stop... Ever !

 

Posters here posting videos of some Palestinian kids saying horrible things about the Isrealis as if they represent all Palestinians.

Same with the video of the Isreali kids singing a hateful song about the Palestinians.

 

I have yet to see any of the regular posters expression compassion for the innocent Palestinian victims.

And no they are not all Hamas supporters.

As I have posted in the past, some Palestinians have protested against Hamas risking their lives in doing so.

 

If you can't see how what Isreal is doing, is and will create more extremists like Hamas in the future then respectfully I don't know what to say to you. 

 

Just saying, a few radical kids in your town killed some people, did some terrible things to people in another town,would you be okay with people from that town blowing the shit out of your town, and killing people in your town, that had nothing to do with hurting the other town ?

 

 

 

So if a women has a gun and is about to kill someone, its not ok to shoot them? Or a child? In a territory controlled by a terrorist organization there will be women and child supporters and that is why Israel had women and child prisoners to exchange for hostages.

 

The apartheid stuff seems to be more related to the West bank than Gaza and I do not consider that relevant to the current conflict. Im not going to debate that again it is exhausting and I already did it a while back.

 

I dont bother with most social media stuff so I havent watched said videos. I cant identify which Palestinians are Hamas supporters and which ones arent so I dont bother trying, it makes no difference in the end. I will never be in a position where I can help them so it doesnt matter if i show my sympathy or not. I just hope that the innocent people listen and evacuate as ordered and can stay away from any Hamas members.

 

As for creating more extremists, that will only happen if Israel does not have a complete victory. A forced ceasefire or partial victory will just continue the war in the future and yes will create more extremists. But a complete victory at least has the possibility of breaking the cycle of violence in Gaza. Chances are Israel will blow it and it wont matter in the end anyways but nothing will change or improve if you keep leaving terrorists in charge to train new terrorists and launch more attacks.

 

As to your last paragraph. It isnt really equivalent to the situation due to scaling issues but ill try to answer it anyways. My response would have been to turn over those radical kids to the other town immediately to be executed or imprisoned, assuming there was sufficient evidence of their guilt. This analogy doesnt really work right with the situation though. I would say that what actually happened is the town refused to turn over those radicals and if i was a member of the town id be trying to get out of the way and maintain neutrality at the very least. This analogy doesnt work well because first, it would be the town leaders that ordered the attack, and second just the numbers issue. Hamas has close to 50000 members ive heard, 2.5 percent of the population, maybe that can be scaled down to a town level, 25 out of 1000 people? Ok maybe the numbers issue isnt so bad after all but still.

 

As to the justice statements, since it is a subjective thing, justice to one person can be unjust to another. I have never been able to find a situation where justice for 1 party didnt result in an injustice to someone else. So im not going to try to say whether something is just or injust as just as you feel some of my statements supported injustice, ive felt the same way about some of yours. So this isnt a topic that will lead to anything beneficial for either of us nor will it resolve anything.

 

[Pompou]

Hamas doesn't have elections because they don't need elections, apparently. Even after the Israeli retribution , the vast majority of Palestinians support it's disgusting actions, although decidedly less so in Gaza than in the so far secure West Bank. This is the second poll on this I've seen in the 70% range.

 

 

Edited December 16, 2023 by Pompou

[Yoshiyoshi]

Im not sure how reliable a poll in Gaza would be atm so id take that number with a grain of salt.

[Ilunga]

6 hours ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

So if a women has a gun and is about to kill someone, its not ok to shoot them? Or a child? In a territory controlled by a terrorist organization there will be women and child supporters and that is why Israel had women and child prisoners to exchange for hostages.

 

The apartheid stuff seems to be more related to the West bank than Gaza and I do not consider that relevant to the current conflict. Im not going to debate that again it is exhausting and I already did it a while back.

 

I dont bother with most social media stuff so I havent watched said videos. I cant identify which Palestinians are Hamas supporters and which ones arent so I dont bother trying, it makes no difference in the end. I will never be in a position where I can help them so it doesnt matter if i show my sympathy or not. I just hope that the innocent people listen and evacuate as ordered and can stay away from any Hamas members.

 

As for creating more extremists, that will only happen if Israel does not have a complete victory. A forced ceasefire or partial victory will just continue the war in the future and yes will create more extremists. But a complete victory at least has the possibility of breaking the cycle of violence in Gaza. Chances are Israel will blow it and it wont matter in the end anyways but nothing will change or improve if you keep leaving terrorists in charge to train new terrorists and launch more attacks.

 

As to your last paragraph. It isnt really equivalent to the situation due to scaling issues but ill try to answer it anyways. My response would have been to turn over those radical kids to the other town immediately to be executed or imprisoned, assuming there was sufficient evidence of their guilt. This analogy doesnt really work right with the situation though. I would say that what actually happened is the town refused to turn over those radicals and if i was a member of the town id be trying to get out of the way and maintain neutrality at the very least. This analogy doesnt work well because first, it would be the town leaders that ordered the attack, and second just the numbers issue. Hamas has close to 50000 members ive heard, 2.5 percent of the population, maybe that can be scaled down to a town level, 25 out of 1000 people? Ok maybe the numbers issue isnt so bad after all but still.

 

As to the justice statements, since it is a subjective thing, justice to one person can be unjust to another. I have never been able to find a situation where justice for 1 party didnt result in an injustice to someone else. So im not going to try to say whether something is just or injust as just as you feel some of my statements supported injustice, ive felt the same way about some of yours. So this isnt a topic that will lead to anything beneficial for either of us nor will it resolve anything.

 

 

First thank you for the detailed reply. 

 

I should have been more specific, innocent women and children.

 

As for woman with a gun, was just stat checking  and came up with 

The IDF has the highest percentage of women in their armed forces, 34 percent.

It used to be only men were stupid enough to fight pointless wars over bits of land, now women are doing it to.

And it is more likely, ratio wise, percentage of population, to be an Isreali women.

 

Personally speaking I would take wounds before I would kill a women.

I would go to great lengths not to even hit a woman.

I was once " glassed " by a women when I was fighting with her partner, he started the fight, I did not retaliate against her.

I had to get ten stitches, head wounds piss out blood.

 

Wether or not you believe the issue of arpartheid is relevant or not to Gaza, and it is, don't you believe that fact that arpartheid exists on our planet in the 21st century is wrong ? 

Don't you think this burns in the heart of all Palestinians ?

 

I don't bother with social media either, the videos I am referring to were posted in this thread.

Showing sympathy to people who are victims of this war on both sides indicates what sort of person you are.

It might not help them however it gives one an insight into your character.

 

As polls are indicating Isreals response is engendering more  support for Hamas and just as importantly more condemnation from the civilised world. 

So to effectively wipe out Hamas, most of the 2.5 million people of Gaza have to be killed, would you be happy with that ?

At what line do we draw a ratio of killing civilians, women and children, to killing actual terrorists, 1- 1, 2- 1, 10 - 1, ?

1- 1 is too many IMO.

 

Macro, Micro my example holds the same weight.

What if those kids had guns and rocket launchers and refused to let you hand them over to the other town.

Don't you believe the majority of Palestinians are trying to be Neutral ?

There isn't any real chance for them to get out of the way.

 

Isreal states Hamas has 30,000 members 

 

https://apnews.com/article/hamas-gaza-palestinian-authority-israel-war-ed7018dbaae09b81513daf3bda38109a

 

I have read other reports stating 20 - 25,000, so your figure of 50,000 is way off the mark. 

 

So over 1,000 Isrealis being killed in the October the 7th attack is an injustice, and it is, yet thousands of Palestinians who are not members off Hamas who have been killed since Isreal has attacked Gaza is not an injustice ?

Subjectively speaking ? 

 

As I have already stated I have seen no compassion for the thousands of innocent Palestinian victims from most of the regular posters.

Compassion seems to be a one way street in this thread apart from 

@Super19, though I wish he would express empathy and compassion for the Isreali victims as I have.

 

What I know for a fact is that while the majority of people think like you, and are able to rationalise the deaths of innocent people, our species will continue to fight these pointless wars/ conflicts.

Killing, injuring and maiming each other, for fuckin stupid reasons.

 

[Ilunga]

You are so right @bishopshodan

 

Stupid species 

 

 

 

 

 

On that side note 

 

Steph was so clinical.

Knocked her opponent down in the first, twice in the second and a TKO in the third.

No chicken wings tonight, kept her elbows closer to her body. 

Bunch of dudes who had paid a fortune for a ringside table got into a punch on just before her fight.

They got kicked out and we got their table.

Stephanie Lee Cutting is now an Australasian Champ.

Fuckin good times. 

 

[Hammertime]

On 11/14/2023 at 7:32 PM, Alflives said:

That’s your view and you’re welcome to it. IMHAO Hamas did terrible things on October 7 and are now being destroyed. The IDF will not stop, regardless of what’s posted here, until Hamas is eliminated. Then, IMHAO, western countries will invest in Gaza and build it up. 

Like the Taliban in Afghanistan Hamas is going no where. 

Edited December 16, 2023 by Hammertime

[Bob Long]

20 hours ago, Super19 said:

Israeli has the Iron Dome system which intercepts 99% of the rockets coming in Israel from Gaza. So these unguided rockets coming in are being intercepted 99% of the time. Also, these rockets are puny. Very inexpensive. Rarely land and when they do, does not inflict the damage Israeli bombs cause - nowhere near.

 

It's economic warfare. The munitions for the Iron Dome cost 10x more than the dumb rockets they are intercepting. And when these rockets flood the Iron Dome system as they have, the Iron Dome quickly needs to use AI to figure out which rockets to target as during these floods it will not cover them all. This flooding is also costly due to the cheap rockets coming in and the expensive defense system intercepting it.

 

Also, dumb bombs are unguided, so when the munitions leave the aircraft they basically just fall where they may. The guided munitions are the ones used to target schools, hospitals, civillian infrastructure. Basically the nearly half of the strikes Israel do and all of the ones Hamas do are let the chips fall where they may.

 

But Hamas uses civilian buildings. I don't see the good choice here. If Hamas is to be eliminated, and their capacity to wage attacks, then the infrastructure they use also has to be taken out.

 

Unless you can explain how Hamas capabilities can be reduced some other way? How would you prevent them from using tunnels under hospitals eg?

 

Edited December 16, 2023 by Bob Long

[Bob Long]

6 minutes ago, Hammertime said:

Like the Taliban in Afghanistan Hamas is going no where. 

 

No but you can greatly reduce their capacity to wage attacks.

[Hammertime]

12 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

No but you can greatly reduce their capacity to wage attacks.

Only temporarily. To me this war is only fueling future generations of Hamas.  

[Super19]

3 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

So over 1,000 Isrealis being killed in the October the 7th attack is an injustice, and it is, yet thousands of Palestinians who are not members off Hamas who have been killed since Isreal has attacked Gaza is not an injustice ?

Subjectively speaking ? 

I respect your views and sentiment.

 

I just want to point out that the Israeli Social Security Office announced that 695 civillians were killed on Oct 7 and 373 Israeli forces were killed, bringing the total to 1,068 Israelis killed on Oct 7.

 

We also know that Israel, due to crossfire/forced error or perhaps even a Hannibal Directive, killed up to half of these Israelis themselves. Their Apache helicopters and tanks on the ground.

 

Now don't get me wrong, Hamas is responsible for the deaths of these Israelis, even if Israel killed nearly half of them due to forced error/crossfire or even the Hannibal Directive. But still, we were misled by the severity and atrocities, and the IDF doesn't look too good here.

 

So keeping in mind that 695 civillians were killed on Oct 7, with the IDF themselves killing a number of them, we are seeing nearly 10,000 (and counting) CHILDREN dead in Israel's military response.

[Super19]

"BREAKING: Three Israeli hostages killed by the IDF were shirtless and holding up a makeshift white flag, an Israeli military official has said.

An inquiry into the incident has found the hostages were fired upon against Israel's rules of engagement"

 

 The hostages were mistakenly killed by Israeli soldiers. Whichever way you slice this, the implications from this is that Israel is willing to break their rules of engagement as long as they see a threat from a man in Gaza, even if they are holding a white flag. Should really make you question how many innocent men Israel detained from the past several days, and how true is this story?:

 

"They were all killed, executed at gunpoint.”

In exclusive testimonies obtained by Al Jazeera, witnesses describe the horrific sights they encountered inside a school in northern Gaza following an Israeli attack."

 

 

[bishopshodan]

4 hours ago, Ilunga said:

Steph was so clinical.

Knocked her opponent down in the first, twice in the second and a TKO in the third.

No chicken wings tonight, kept her elbows closer to her body. 

Bunch of dudes who had paid a fortune for a ringside table got into a punch on just before her fight.

They got kicked out and we got their table.

Stephanie Lee Cutting is now an Australasian Champ.

Fuckin good times. 

 

 

Man, that is awesome.

She really is good. Heart of a fighter (good pressure) with strong technique. Please keep me upto date with her progress. 

Snagging that table must have made for a wicked good night. I dream of sitting ringside. 

 

I think I have told you about my friend's son that I take to the gym ( son of the ex-US marine guy I mentioned yesterday). He will be off to Alabama on a full lacrosse scholarship.... Anyway, his little bro has discovered bjj. After just 2 months the club approached his dad and asked if they could put the son in tournies. He loves it. Mopping up and fighting above his weight class. I think he is 13-1 so far. He doesn't have the natural gifts of his big bro but he has a fire, indomitable spirit. I am so stoked to support him along his journey.

 

Great song you posted. BTW, because of you 'Idiots are taking over' is on my gym playlist. I think of you almost daily.

Thanks for the kind words Ilunga. Take care of yourself this holiday season, treat yourself well. 

[Super19]

1 hour ago, Bob Long said:

 

But Hamas uses civilian buildings. I don't see the good choice here. If Hamas is to be eliminated, and their capacity to wage attacks, then the infrastructure they use also has to be taken out.

 

Unless you can explain how Hamas capabilities can be reduced some other way? How would you prevent them from using tunnels under hospitals eg?

 

IMO? Ceasefire and diplomacy.

 

(There was no tunnel under al-Shifa btw)

 

And I get Israel doesn't want to always be on high alert and look behind their backs. But it's extremely difficult for Hamas (or whatever other faction in Gaza) to infiltrate Israel, and the Iron Dome has a 99% success under most ordinary conditions. But these tunnel systems pose Israel no threat unless IDF are actually IN Gaza. 

 

Ceasefire and diplomacy. Force Hamas to change their charter and uphold the utmost discipline from both sides to not F around with eachother.

[Bob Long]

11 minutes ago, Super19 said:

IMO? Ceasefire and diplomacy.

 

(There was no tunnel under al-Shifa btw)

 

And I get Israel doesn't want to always be on high alert and look behind their backs. But it's extremely difficult for Hamas (or whatever other faction in Gaza) to infiltrate Israel, and the Iron Dome has a 99% success under most ordinary conditions. But these tunnel systems pose Israel no threat unless IDF are actually IN Gaza. 

 

 

Come on that's a bit silly. They are great places to store weapons troops and hostages.

 

 

11 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Ceasefire and diplomacy. Force Hamas to change their charter and uphold the utmost discipline from both sides to not F around with eachother.

 

Hamas needs to f off.

 

Gazans have to choose better leadership. I'm not victim blaming average Gazans but they do have a responsibly to choose better , if they ever get the chance to again.

[Bob Long]

1 hour ago, Hammertime said:

Only temporarily. To me this war is only fueling future generations of Hamas.  

 

Which is what Hamas wanted.