Hamas attacking Israel

[Ilunga]

40 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

 

Is there any different context though?

 

Could he have been saying that it is 'true'... that reporters have been hounding him for all those years?

 

Not that he necessarily is admitting to anything?

 

He, Netanyahu, sure is admitting something brother 

 

" I am proud I blocked a Palestinian state "

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/pm-im-proud-i-blocked-a-palestinian-state-looking-at-gaza-everyone-sees-what-would-have-happened/

 

And maybe, very probably, if there was a Palestinian state, Hamas wouldn't have the backing of the Palestinian people, and the October the 7th attack would not have happened.

[bishopshodan]

2 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

He, Netanyahu, sure is admitting something brother 

 

" I am proud I blocked a Palestinian state "

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/pm-im-proud-i-blocked-a-palestinian-state-looking-at-gaza-everyone-sees-what-would-have-happened/

 

And maybe, very probably, if there was a Palestinian state, Hamas wouldn't have the backing of the Palestinian people, and the October the 7th attack would not have happened.

 

Thank you. I only saw what was posted here and wondered...

 

 

 

 

[Ilunga]

1 minute ago, bishopshodan said:

 

Thank you. I only saw what was posted here and wondered...

 

 

 

 

 

I don't trust social media sources much myself. 

Even conventional media, one has to have their bullshit detectors on full alert.

 

This seems pretty definitive. 

 

I don't kinda get how people can defend a regime that has openly admitted that they are oppressing another group of people.

 

Of course this does not excuse or give them the right to use violence against the Isrealis, that just continues the circle of hatred and in the case of the October the 7th attacks, many of the people they tortured and killed were sympathetic to the Palestinians cause. 

 

As has been noted, most of the victims of this forever conflict have been innocent of anything, except for being an Isreali or a Palestinian.

 

I so fuckin hate nationalism.

This conflict literally would not exist if we didn't divide ourselves into disparate groups/ societies.

 

People talk about being a " proud " insert whatever country you would like to name.

I am not even a proud human being.

We continually kill each other in pointless wars.

We are trashing the very planet we live on.

It shames me the legacy we are leaving for my son's generation, and future generations.

The greed, 50 percent of the wealth is held by 1 percent of the population.

So much for us to be ashamed of at a fundamental level.

[Ilunga]

5 hours ago, Super19 said:

If an alien came to Earth and saw what was happening, they'd think Nentanyahu was the genocidal maniac.

 

Why do you believe extra terrestrial life avoids contact with us ?

 

If I was a member of a rational, logical species, I would take one look at us, hit the warp drive, and get the fuck out of this solar system.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Optimist Prime]

27 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Why do you believe extra terrestrial life avoids contact with us ?

 

If I was a member of a rational, logical species, I would take one look at us, hit the warp drive, and get the fuck out of this solar system.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

NDT has said it pretty well, but biologist Richard Dawkins spoke on it too.

https://youtube.com/shorts/zvv0G6LCU6c?si=IdmBeFKu5t-RhtSf

 

https://youtube.com/shorts/8VO1bIZ6nFE?si=xI24XflmibHoJi0G

[Optimist Prime]

By the way, and this is for everyone: 

 

I appreciate that generally we have all learned to share our thoughts on this terrible subject without calling each other names. I am proud of us, the thread has evolved.

[Spur1]

38 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Why do you believe extra terrestrial life avoids contact with us ?

 

If I was a member of a rational, logical species, I would take one look at us, hit the warp drive, and get the fuck out of this solar system.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

lol that’s me and the Uass

[Ilunga]

4 hours ago, Alflives said:

Hamas is a terrorist group as identified by our government. Israel is our ally. The IDF is not a terrorist group. The IDF is going a job that must be done for Gaza to be free. They must eliminate the terrorists - Hamas. 

 

The IDF might not be a terrorist organisation however they support Isreali settlers who commit acts of terror.

Don't believe me, how about Israel's staunchest ally, the US state department.

 

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/sharpened-censure-us-calls-suspected-israeli-settler-attack-terrorism-2023-08-06/

 

Or maybe former Isreali defence minister Benny Ganz  

 

" We are faced with the evolution of a dangerous Jewish nationalist terrorism "

[Ilunga]

15 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

By the way, and this is for everyone: 

 

I appreciate that generally we have all learned to share our thoughts on this terrible subject without calling each other names. I am proud of us, the thread has evolved.

 

You, as I have always treated others the way you want to be treated yourself, with dignity and respect.

We don't agree all the time however I have so much respect for you, you have the one essential quality I look for in a person, a good heart.

[RomanPer]

22 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

By the way, and this is for everyone: 

 

I appreciate that generally we have all learned to share our thoughts on this terrible subject without calling each other names. I am proud of us, the thread has evolved.

 

It’s very hard sometimes though…

[Ilunga]

3 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

It’s very hard sometimes though…

 

Why ?

 

I feel passionately about the injustice not just visited upon the Isreali and Palestinian people but all injustice everywhere.

I never feel the urge to insult or belittle others just because they don't agree with me.

 

First off that just hurts me more than it hurts them.

Secondly how do you get people to respect your beliefs if you insult them.

 

Thirdly as JJR noted 

 

" Insults are the arguments employed by those who are in the wrong "

[RomanPer]

Just now, Ilunga said:

 

Why ?

 

I feel passionately about the injustice not just visited upon the Isreali and Palestinian people but all injustice everywhere.

I never feel the urge to insult or belittle others just because they don't agree with me.

 

First off that just hurts me more than it hurts them.

Secondly how do you get people to respect your beliefs if you insult them.

 

Thirdly as JJR noted 

 

" Insults are the arguments employed by those who are in the wrong "

 

When someone spews complete lies and you just gave up trying to prove something to that person a long time ago… Just because someone on the internet says something, doesn’t make it true, but certain people present it as undisputable facts.

[Ilunga]

Just now, RomanPer said:

 

When someone spews complete lies and you just gave up trying to prove something to that person a long time ago… Just because someone on the internet says something, doesn’t make it true, but certain people present it as undisputable facts.

 

If you have presented your arguments in a rational logical manner and they are not accepted, insulting the other does not change anything.

It will only compound the divide.

 

I have always known, and the events of the last few years of my life, have really reinforced the fact that the only thing we can take to the grave with us is being true to who we are. 

 

Being true to myself is treating others the way I wish to be treated and treating those less fortunate than me with compassion and empathy.

Shit, treat everyone with compassion and empathy, especially those you don't agree with.  

 

You're a good person at heart.

Like me you are passionate about what you believe in, I respect that, even if we don't agree on somethings.

I believe we agree on the most important thing of all, that people everywhere should respect each other.

 

 

[Ilunga]

 

 

 

 

[Ilunga]

11 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

historically speaking, Japan was bombed into compliance, and are very close friends to this day after that. 

Germany is a very close friend now and has been very good for democracy, peace and prosperity ever after they were bombed into compliance. 

I suspect that once Hamas is dealt with , the good people of Gaza will rally and save their society through compliance with peace and the peace process. 
just a hunch.

 

oh, and more Hamas fighters in Schools, i am shocked to hear of such allegations. (sarcasm for those whose detectors are broken)

 

 

This speaks volumes about our species. 

 

We have to bomb the shit out of each other to get along. 

 

Did you consider the fact that it might have been the compassion that was shown to them after the war, The Marshall plan, rebuilding Germany, and the US rebuilding Japan after the war, that was the real catalyst for change ?

Why they did not feel enmity towards those who had once been their enemies.

 

One thing is for certain they certainly lost the war, however they have won the peace.

[Boudrias]

10 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

When someone spews complete lies and you just gave up trying to prove something to that person a long time ago… Just because someone on the internet says something, doesn’t make it true, but certain people present it as undisputable facts.

A recent poll indicated that 75% of Gazans support Hamas. The narrative has become what it takes to either eliminate Hamas leadership or bring them to the table to talk long term peace. IMHO it is Israel that has to see concrete guarantees that protect their existence. It is Israel that cannot trust any other country to defend Israel. Wasn't it the 1973 war when the Syrians came off the Golan Heights and broke toward the Med and threatened to split Israel in two? It was Bibi who lead Israeli tanks back north to destroy the Syrians and save Israel. The closest the Arabs ever got to destroying Israel and a reality I doubt Israelis have ever forgotten. 24 hours away from losing their country? Israel can only exist thru strength. It is Arabs who will have to build bridges over the coming decades. Signs of what might be possible were being realized prior to Oct. 7th as Arab country after country signed agreements with Israel to normalize relations. The Egyptians were the first and they have stood by their agreements. Jordanians as well. The Sunni Arab countries are not supporting Humas for a reason. The Palestinian people have to conclude that this is the way forward and not support their current leadership. If the Palestinians has spent their time and money on building a future on the West Bank and Gaza they would not suffer the poverty they live in now. But such a course would destroy those who profit from their poverty and desperation.     

Edited December 17, 2023 by Boudrias

[Alflives]

18 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

A recent poll indicated that 75% of Gazans support Hamas. The narrative has become what it takes to either eliminate Hamas leadership or bring them to the table to talk long term peace. IMHO it is Israel that has to see concrete guarantees that protect their existence. It is Israel that cannot trust any other country to defend Israel. Wasn't it the 1973 war when the Syrians came off the Golan Heights and broke toward the Med and threatened to split Israel in two? It was Bibi who lead Israeli tanks back north to destroy the Syrians and save Israel. The closest the Arabs ever got to destroying Israel and a reality I doubt Israelis have ever forgotten. 24 hours away from losing their country? Israel can only exist thru strength. It is Arabs who will have to build bridges over the coming decades. Signs of what might be possible were being realized prior to Oct. 7th as Arab country after country signed agreements with Israel to normalize relations. The Egyptians were the first and they have stood by their agreements. Jordanians as well. The Sunni Arab countries are not supporting Humas for a reason. The Palestinian people have to conclude that this is the way forward and not support their current leadership. If the Palestinians has spent their time and money on building a future on the West Bank and Gaza they would not suffer the poverty they live in now. But such a course would destroy those who profit from their poverty and desperation.     

Hamas has been the government in Gaza for close to one generation. I am thinking the children, and young adults, are now so programmed to hate it’s going to take another generation to cleanse their thinking. 
“A 2013 New York Times article said that Gaza schools run by Hamas and the U.N. both use the Palestinian Authority curriculum that is also taught throughout the West Bank, but that “Hamas has added programs, like a military training elective” and other teachings to “infuse the next generation with its militant ideology.””

https://forward.com/opinion/566841/hamas-schools-indoctrination-antisemitic-textbooks-gaza/?amp=1

 

Edited December 17, 2023 by Alflives

[Bob Long]

16 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

A recent poll indicated that 75% of Gazans support Hamas. The narrative has become what it takes to either eliminate Hamas leadership or bring them to the table to talk long term peace. IMHO it is Israel that has to see concrete guarantees that protect their existence. It is Israel that cannot trust any other country to defend Israel. Wasn't it the 1973 war when the Syrians came off the Golan Heights and broke toward the Med and threatened to split Israel in two? It was Bibi who lead Israeli tanks back north to destroy the Syrians and save Israel. The closest the Arabs ever got to destroying Israel and a reality I doubt Israelis have ever forgotten. 24 hours away from losing their country? Israel can only exist thru strength. It is Arabs who will have to build bridges over the coming decades. Signs of what might be possible were being realized prior to Oct. 7th as Arab country after country signed agreements with Israel to normalize relations. The Egyptians were the first and they have stood by their agreements. Jordanians as well. The Sunni Arab countries are not supporting Humas for a reason. The Palestinian people have to conclude that this is the way forward and not support their current leadership. If the Palestinians has spent their time and money on building a future on the West Bank and Gaza they would not suffer the poverty they live in now. But such a course would destroy those who profit from their poverty and desperation.     

 

It's no surprise that Hamas attacked right before Israel and the Saudis were closing in on a deal.

 

[bishopshodan]

12 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

When someone spews complete lies and you just gave up trying to prove something to that person a long time ago… Just because someone on the internet says something, doesn’t make it true, but certain people present it as undisputable facts.

 

Yes, I find this poor form too.

 

This was my complaint about the claim that Hamas funds individuals in Canada's government, universities and education institutions.

 

Either give some sources or a link or ( as Alf loves to do now) state that it is just your opinion. In the case I keep complaining about the poster let other users try to justify...Alf said it must be just his opinion, Bob tried to explain that it must be in essense or more about Iran perhaps....but the OP, just sat there, not responding, not clearing it up. He let his statements sit there as fact. 

The poster is very pessimistic about Canada and is constantly putting our country down. I am proud of our country, when statements this extreme are made about our land's most important institutions I want some sort of proof. 

 

[Alflives]

3 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

 

Yes, I find this poor form too.

 

This was my complaint about the claim that Hamas funds individuals in Canada's government, universities and education institutions.

 

Either give some sources or a link or ( as Alf loves to do now) state that it is just your opinion. In the case I keep complaining about the poster let other users try to justify...Alf said it must be just his opinion, Bob tried to explain that it must be in essense or more about Iran perhaps....but the OP, just sat there, not responding, not clearing it up. He let his statements sit there as fact. 

The poster is very pessimistic about Canada and is constantly putting our country down. I am proud of our country, when statements this extreme are made about our land's most important institutions I want some sort of proof. 

 

We (mostly) are all proud of Canada. There are some though who -IMHAO- openly express hatred and promote violence against our allies. Those people should be tried and jailed, and if not citizens deported. Not too sure there is money coming from Iran or Hamas to some of these people (directly or indirectly) but I certainly wouldn’t be shocked to find out one day that it does. The RCMP just arrested a couple younger guys for plotting a bombing. Where are those guys getting their money and do they have connections to terrorists? 

[bishopshodan]

3 hours ago, Alflives said:

Not too sure there is money coming from Iran or Hamas to some of these people (directly or indirectly) but I certainly wouldn’t be shocked to find out one day that it does.

There might be.

These days it wouldnt surprise me about anything... but the claim is massive. Anyone who spews that should have the decency to provide some source, some reason, or as we say...claim it it just your opinion/belief. 

Those accepting funds in our cherished institutions should be arrested, for sure.

 

There is something very American-style about some of the hate rhetoric coming from some Canadians about their own country. We have many things to fix but this is our homeland and we have many reasons to be proud. To post serious criminal accusations, presented as fact, when they are opinions... on a discussion board and then not be willing to discuss what you claim is... weaksauce poured on a side of steaming bullshit. 

Edited December 17, 2023 by bishopshodan

[Super19]

On 12/15/2023 at 1:45 PM, Bob Long said:

 

 

We should spend a bit more time in this thread on the influence of Iran and Russia on the current situation and whats to come. If Gaza is just going to be at the whim of Iran-backed terrorists then what was the point of all this?

 

I don't know how much of a role Russia has played so far other than just being an enemy of the US.

 

But yes, the "Axis of Evil" as Fox News would describe it is made up of Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, Hamas. I guess you can add the Houthis to this list now as well. They are all kind of like allies but act independently... with Iran as the lead. Without Iran and Syria, Hamas would certainly have zero capability and Oct 7 would not have happened. Iran gives the financial backing and it is through Syria where these factions like Hezbollah and Hamas find themselves armed. There was that little war between Hezbollah and IDF in 2006, the "Arab Spring" in 2011, the ongoing conflict in Syria can all be events somehow linked with Israel-Palestine and the region and the US and its allies/proxies. At the end of the day it all seems interconnected and a big web. Would highly derail the thread. But to truly dismantle Hamas, it seems like all these countries would need to be dealt with as well... it's Hamas' financial backing,  weaponry and training.

[Optimist Prime]

Mark your calendar, i agree with the post above. Have a good night all. Movie time., Gotta find what escapism we can right?

[Ilunga]

13 hours ago, Alflives said:

Hamas has been the government in Gaza for close to one generation. I am thinking the children, and young adults, are now so programmed to hate it’s going to take another generation to cleanse their thinking. 
“A 2013 New York Times article said that Gaza schools run by Hamas and the U.N. both use the Palestinian Authority curriculum that is also taught throughout the West Bank, but that “Hamas has added programs, like a military training elective” and other teachings to “infuse the next generation with its militant ideology.””

https://forward.com/opinion/566841/hamas-schools-indoctrination-antisemitic-textbooks-gaza/?amp=1

 

 

Guess what Alf so do the Isrealis 

 

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20190805-israel-kids-flock-to-military-themed-summer-camps/

 

https://forward.com/opinion/197866/when-israelis-teach-their-kids-to-hate/

 

Still waiting for you to condemn the Isreali settler terrorism.

[Ilunga]

14 hours ago, Boudrias said:

A recent poll indicated that 75% of Gazans support Hamas. The narrative has become what it takes to either eliminate Hamas leadership or bring them to the table to talk long term peace. IMHO it is Israel that has to see concrete guarantees that protect their existence. It is Israel that cannot trust any other country to defend Israel. Wasn't it the 1973 war when the Syrians came off the Golan Heights and broke toward the Med and threatened to split Israel in two? It was Bibi who lead Israeli tanks back north to destroy the Syrians and save Israel. The closest the Arabs ever got to destroying Israel and a reality I doubt Israelis have ever forgotten. 24 hours away from losing their country? Israel can only exist thru strength. It is Arabs who will have to build bridges over the coming decades. Signs of what might be possible were being realized prior to Oct. 7th as Arab country after country signed agreements with Israel to normalize relations. The Egyptians were the first and they have stood by their agreements. Jordanians as well. The Sunni Arab countries are not supporting Humas for a reason. The Palestinian people have to conclude that this is the way forward and not support their current leadership. If the Palestinians has spent their time and money on building a future on the West Bank and Gaza they would not suffer the poverty they live in now. But such a course would destroy those who profit from their poverty and desperation.     

 

Some facts that are commonly known and some not so much about the " Oslo peace accords " 

 

https://remix.aljazeera.com/aje/PalestineRemix/the-price-of-oslo.html 

 

Some key points 

 

1979 Arafat asks Norway to provide a secret back chanel to the Isrealis.

Isreal wasn't willing to talk.

 

 

Norway was considered a Zionist country, 87 of the 157 members of parliament belonged to the group the  " friends of Isreal "  

 

9th of September 1993 Arafat, the PLO,  recognises the state of Israel, pledges to  renounce violence and terrorism.

 

All the difficult questions, Jerusalem, Palestinian refugees, borders you name it were taken out ( of the Oslo negotiations)

 

Hilde Henriksen Waage 

Norwegian historian

 

We did what we were asked to do. Mutual recognition and security coordination.

We honoured our promises but the occupying power did not.

 

Yasser Abed Rabbo,

Palestinian Liberation Organisation 

 

 

My own thoughts.

 

Any one who has studied this conflict knows the Isrealis did not deal with the hard issues and they kept breaking their promise of not to take/ steal/ settle more land.

Netanyahu has openly admitted this.

 

So it is obvious to  anybody who has any sort of critical thinking skills,  that it is the Isrealis that have torpedoed the Oslo accords.

Again Netanyahu has openly admitted this.

Edited December 18, 2023 by Ilunga