Hamas attacking Israel

[RomanPer]

7 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Hamas,  that Netanyahu propped up and  supported  

 

 

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2023-12-20/ty-article-opinion/.premium/how-netanyahu-enabled-october-7-with-suitcases-of-cash/0000018c-8397-d219-a5bf-b7ff40660000

 

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

 

More Isreali sources Bullshitting ?

 

 

Cool story. US created Taliban as means of fighting soviets in the 80s. So what's your point?

[Ilunga]

56 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

That could easily be turned around to the apartheid type life the Palestinians have been living in for decades. 
 

It doesn’t excuse Hamas’s attacks however. 
 

It’s just a reality of the causation by Israel upon Palestine. 
 

The causation can be furthered by Palestinians choosing Hamas as their leadership. 
 

And on and we go Ad Reductio 

 

Where does it end? Only when there’s two States that are both thriving. 

 

Not arpartheid type life, it is actual arpartheid.

The international community has stated this, human rights organisations both within and outside Isreal, and also Isrealis themselves.

 

People who deny this don't seem to realise they lose all credibility. 

 

You know why we keep making the same mistakes over and over again ?,

because so many people don't admit to their mistakes on both a personal and societal level. 

 

 

[Ilunga]

6 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

So, you take the word of one Israeli over words of many other Israelis... I see. You know, being Israeli is not an automatic sign of having an undisputable opinion. I'll tell you more - there's an Israeli feminist professor (who actually either worked until recently or still works at UBC) who published a "research" years ago as her dissertation at Jerusalem Hebrew University, claiming that the fact that Israeli soldiers don't rape Palestinian women is a sign of racism. Talk about a warped view of the world.

 

You keep on bringing up opinions of random Israelis as some sort of ultimate truth. If you have an option to move to Israel and live there for a year or two - you will have your opinion change completely. I said it many times in this thread - Israeli society is not perfect, like any other society in the world. But it's absolutely false to come up with blanket claims like these opinions to portray Israel as systematic bad people.

 

What many Isrealis ?

 

I will take the word of a person that studied hundreds of school text books and has reported the findings of her study. 

 

I know Isreal is not a perfect society neither is the one I live in, Australia, we have and still do treat out indigenous citizens as second class people.

We still have racists amongst us, we actually had to legislate to ban the Nazi salute in my state of Victoria, I am so ashamed.

 

See how easy that is, to admit the mistakes ones society makes.

That's the first step on the path to not making the same mistake again.

 

This is one of the reasons why Isrealis and Palestinians are locked in this circle of hatred, neither side wants to admit their mistakes. 

 

And where did I say, or any of those articles say all Isrealis are bad people ?

 

As I have stated many times, in any given group of people you will find, good to bad and everything in-between.

[Super19]

1 hour ago, RomanPer said:

 

I wonder where all the food goes - somehow all the arrested Hamas fighters look very well fed...

Some of it is being burned by the IDF. Some IDF soldiers are also entering the destroyed homes in Gaza and making themselves meals from their cupboards. All of this is real and happened and it's these little things the IDF is doing that shows they don't give a damn about the people of Gaza.

[Alflives]

19 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

So, you take the word of one Israeli over words of many other Israelis... I see. You know, being Israeli is not an automatic sign of having an undisputable opinion. I'll tell you more - there's an Israeli feminist professor (who actually either worked until recently or still works at UBC) who published a "research" years ago as her dissertation at Jerusalem Hebrew University, claiming that the fact that Israeli soldiers don't rape Palestinian women is a sign of racism. Talk about a warped view of the world.

 

You keep on bringing up opinions of random Israelis as some sort of ultimate truth. If you have an option to move to Israel and live there for a year or two - you will have your opinion change completely. I said it many times in this thread - Israeli society is not perfect, like any other society in the world. But it's absolutely false to come up with blanket claims like these opinions to portray Israel as systematic bad people.

Is not Israel similar to us, where opinions (even though they differ from the norm) are allowed? Hamas would toss people off rooftops who expressed opinions they didn’t like. 

[Sharpshooter]

Things have been said. Points made and counterpoints made. 
 

Facts need to be discussed. 
 

Counter the point but please remain extra respectful to every Member here. Especially in this thread. 
 

That’s not a suggestion gentlemen. It’s a requirement or you’ll find yourself removed from the conversation. 
 

Capiche? 
 

 

[RomanPer]

6 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

What many Isrealis ?

 

I will take the word of a person that studied hundreds of school text books and has reported the findings of her study. 

 

I know Isreal is not a perfect society neither is the one I live in, Australia, we have and still do treat out indigenous citizens as second class people.

We still have racists amongst us, we actually had to legislate to ban the Nazi salute in my state of Victoria, I am so ashamed.

 

See how easy that is, to admit the mistakes ones society makes.

That's the first step on the path to not making the same mistake again.

 

This is one of the reasons why Isrealis and Palestinians are locked in this circle of hatred, neither side wants to admit their mistakes. 

 

And where did I say, or any of those articles say all Isrealis are bad people ?

 

As I have stated many times, in any given group of people you will find, good to bad and everything in-between.

 

So, you are taking opinion of one academic researcher over people whose kids actually attend Israeli schools. Got it.

[Alflives]

4 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Some of it is being burned by the IDF. Some IDF soldiers are also entering the destroyed homes in Gaza and making themselves meals from their cupboards. All of this is real and happened and it's these little things the IDF is doing that shows they don't give a damn about the people of Gaza.

Hsmas doesn’t give a damn about the people of Gaza. One of their leaders stated as much when saying it was the rest of the world’s countries who were responsible to provide for the Gaza people because of refugee status, or some such thing. IMHAO the IDF are freeing the people of Gaza from an evil entity - Hamas. Sadly even after cleansed it’s going to take a generation to recover from the brainwashing of the Gaza children to hate. 

[Ilunga]

17 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

Cool story. US created Taliban as means of fighting soviets in the 80s. So what's your point?

 

I don't find anything about this forever conflict cool.

It's a really fucked up situation with so many people suffering on both sides.

 

My point, and the point of those articles is, is that Netanyahu didn't want Palestinians to have self determination, that he played the game of divide and conquer, all the while enabling Jewish settlers to steal more land on the west bank.

That he supported Hamas for his own political ends.

That some portion of blame for the October 7th attack must be placed on his shoulders.  

 

 

 

 

[Ilunga]

3 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

So, you are taking opinion of one academic researcher over people whose kids actually attend Israeli schools. Got it.

 

Yes I will.

Especially when that person has every reason to be biased against the Palestinian people.

Why would she lie ?

 

Have you studied hundreds of Isreali school textbooks ? 

She did.

 

If you informed me about information in regards to software, I would believe you, that's your speciality isn't it ?

 

 

[bishopshodan]

This is a lot of people that would have to move for a 2 state solution to work according to this fella...

 

Two-state solution achievable by relocating 200,000 settlers: top Israeli lawyer

https://www.middleeasteye.net/live-blog/live-blog-update/two-state-solution-would-mean-relocating-200000-settlers-top-israeli?nid=326631&topic=Israel-Palestine%20war&fid=494076

 

Nearly 200,000 of the 700,000 Israeli settlers in the West Bank would have to be relocated into Israel to create a viable Palestinian state, according to an influential Israeli lawyer from whom UK Foreign Secretary David Cameron has sought advice on his visits to Israel.

[Optimist Prime]

2 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

I wonder where all the food goes - somehow all the arrested Hamas fighters look very well fed...

They do in fact commandeer storehouses of goods, particularly the UN stuff about a month ago, watched an almost live feed of Hamas forcing out the locals and UN vested folks and literally just taking armed control of the food store warehouse. 

So weird watching things pretty close to live. Only barely had this tech when I was in "Virtual Afghanistan" in an ops room in Ottawa in 2004/5, and not for civilian consumption. Satellite feeds and such at the time.  

[Optimist Prime]

31 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

This is a lot of people that would have to move for a 2 state solution to work according to this fella...

 

Two-state solution achievable by relocating 200,000 settlers: top Israeli lawyer

https://www.middleeasteye.net/live-blog/live-blog-update/two-state-solution-would-mean-relocating-200000-settlers-top-israeli?nid=326631&topic=Israel-Palestine%20war&fid=494076

 

Nearly 200,000 of the 700,000 Israeli settlers in the West Bank would have to be relocated into Israel to create a viable Palestinian state, according to an influential Israeli lawyer from whom UK Foreign Secretary David Cameron has sought advice on his visits to Israel.

West Bank might be a viable solution, but I honestly don't see how a new nation of Palestine could work with Gaza involved as a satellite state...We see it with Russia and Kaliningrad on the Baltic, but even that may be fraught with peril going forward, as Russia wipes out its national military infrastructure for meters and feet of gains in Eastern Ukraine. 

 

We shall see what becomes of Gaza after the work is done there to eliminate Hamas ability to wage war or terror campaigns. My suspicion is that north of the Wadi Gaza will be forfeited as a spoil of war for reparations and a viable buffer zone from future rockets. 

 

Earlier I had mused that Gaza might be a good incentive for Jordan to take control of the Palestinians full time and forever with a reconstituted Transjordan empire, which did used to include the west bank anyways...but for the trouble of taking on the Palestinians, perhaps a newly rebuilt Transjordan would like to have a Mediterranean port such as Gaza?

[Optimist Prime]

2 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

Sorry, not buying the "apartheid" lingo. Plenty of examples to claim otherwise. Attempt to protect your own population from constant terrorist attacks <> apartheid. Also, the whole "open air prison in Gaza" is bs - Gazan influencer recently published a video on Instagram with the comment "Miss my life in Gaza before October 7th" that showed quite nice life, with beaches, nice houses, restaurants, etc. After the internal outcry that this message doesn't fit into the "permanent victim" narrative of Hamas propaganda, she promptly removed that video.

I too was gonna say, I can't think of any reason for the current 'divide' other than before it happened a bus or a busy market or a large gathering like a wedding or a funeral were blown up on a daily basis. I know it sounds like collective punishment, but the vast majority of folks who went to gaza did so of their own accord, and after, Israel simply built a protective fence, again in self defence: what do you do when that one neighbour continuously breaks your stuff, kills your people and steals what they can carry off? You build a big fence and arm yourself. 

 

Also, for what it is worth, there is a large number of Arab Israeli's and there was a large number of Gazans who were allowed in and out of the strip to work. If Israel practiced apartheid in the sensationalist sense some folks try to use it as: that would not be the case. When the Government of Gaza attacks Israel, of COURSE Israel shuts down the border gates...what else do you do if you are the defending group? Absurd to call it apartheid when the reality is if Gazans were absolutely free to intermingle in Israel as they please we would be looking at hundreds of thousands of Dead Israeli's over the past 30 years. 

 

Again there have been 16 major attacks from Palestinians and their allies since Israel was created out of the British lands in the middle east. Israel only initiated one of them, and it was a day before the combined arab armies were going to attack her anyway... start 16 wars and then cry foul over how the nation reacts to you? Pshhhh.

[Ilunga]

40 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

This is a lot of people that would have to move for a 2 state solution to work according to this fella...

 

Two-state solution achievable by relocating 200,000 settlers: top Israeli lawyer

https://www.middleeasteye.net/live-blog/live-blog-update/two-state-solution-would-mean-relocating-200000-settlers-top-israeli?nid=326631&topic=Israel-Palestine%20war&fid=494076

 

Nearly 200,000 of the 700,000 Israeli settlers in the West Bank would have to be relocated into Israel to create a viable Palestinian state, according to an influential Israeli lawyer from whom UK Foreign Secretary David Cameron has sought advice on his visits to Israel.

 

Why shouldn't all the Isreali settlers who have stolen land from the Palestinians be forced to give it back ?

 

Would we allow people to steal land in our societies ? 

 

 

[Bob Long]

14 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

I too was gonna say, I can't think of any reason for the current 'divide' other than before it happened a bus or a busy market or a large gathering like a wedding or a funeral were blown up on a daily basis. I know it sounds like collective punishment, but the vast majority of folks who went to gaza did so of their own accord, and after, Israel simply built a protective fence, again in self defence: what do you do when that one neighbour continuously breaks your stuff, kills your people and steals what they can carry off? You build a big fence and arm yourself. 

 

Also, for what it is worth, there is a large number of Arab Israeli's and there was a large number of Gazans who were allowed in and out of the strip to work. If Israel practiced apartheid in the sensationalist sense some folks try to use it as: that would not be the case. When the Government of Gaza attacks Israel, of COURSE Israel shuts down the border gates...what else do you do if you are the defending group? Absurd to call it apartheid when the reality is if Gazans were absolutely free to intermingle in Israel as they please we would be looking at hundreds of thousands of Dead Israeli's over the past 30 years. 

 

Again there have been 16 major attacks from Palestinians and their allies since Israel was created out of the British lands in the middle east. Israel only initiated one of them, and it was a day before the combined arab armies were going to attack her anyway... start 16 wars and then cry foul over how the nation reacts to you? Pshhhh.

 

But facts don't trump the feels.

 

There's no way to discuss this rationally with far too many people.

[RomanPer]

1 hour ago, Ilunga said:

 

Yes I will.

Especially when that person has every reason to be biased against the Palestinian people.

Why would she lie ?

 

Have you studied hundreds of Isreali school textbooks ? 

She did.

 

If you informed me about information in regards to software, I would believe you, that's your speciality isn't it ?

 

 

 

Sorry, brother, but I’ll take personal experience and opinions of people who themselves and their kids are using these textbooks on regular basis over an academic research of a person with an unknown preconceived notions. I gave you an example of another Jewish scholar who came up I with the ost idiotic concept of her dissertation. Being Jewish or Israeli doesn’t automatically mean you are smart or reasonable. We’ll have to agree to disagree.

[Optimist Prime]

Of the original roughly 110 square KM's of Gaza Strip north of the Wadi Gaza, only 24 square KM's are not under complete Israeli Control as of now. 

The rest may fall very quickly, and I hope it does. Hamas can't beat the IDF whatsoever, and by not surrendering they are only further damaging the lives of the people they controlled up until now. 

[Optimist Prime]

20 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Why shouldn't all the Isreali settlers who have stolen land from the Palestinians be forced to give it back ?

 

Would we allow people to steal land in our societies ? 

 

 

Aren't you in Australia? Were your ancestors from there or.....would you have to 'go home' to Europe if you practiced what you preach?

[Ilunga]

15 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

I too was gonna say, I can't think of any reason for the current 'divide' other than before it happened a bus or a busy market or a large gathering like a wedding or a funeral were blown up on a daily basis. I know it sounds like collective punishment, but the vast majority of folks who went to gaza did so of their own accord, and after, Israel simply built a protective fence, again in self defence: what do you do when that one neighbour continuously breaks your stuff, kills your people and steals what they can carry off? You build a big fence and arm yourself. 

 

Sounds like you are describing the west bank and the Gaza strip. 

In particular the west bank.

 

 Voluntarily went to Gaza ?

They kept on losing more and more land, and were forced to into smaller areas.

 

What would you do if people kept stealing your land 

 

What do you do when you are confined to a small place, that has no real resources, have people with guns constantly patrolling your streets. 

When your kids are killed.

 

Apart from @Super19 not one poster has dealt with the fact of Isreali settlers acts of terror.

How Isreali settlers keep stealing more and more land on the west bank.

This is the most " valuable " land, farmland in particular that is needed if Palestinians are to have have their own state they need resources. 

What resources does Gaza have ?

Very limited resources. 

 

 

 

[Ilunga]

22 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

But facts don't trump the feels.

 

There's no way to discuss this rationally with far too many people.

 

So people who disagree with you aren't being rational.

 

And the facts they present aren't facts at all. 

 

[Optimist Prime]

32 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Sounds like you are describing the west bank and the Gaza strip. 

In particular the west bank.

 

 Voluntarily went to Gaza ?

They kept on losing more and more land, and were forced to into smaller areas.

 

What would you do if people kept stealing your land 

 

What do you do when you are confined to a small place, that has no real resources, have people with guns constantly patrolling your streets. 

When your kids are killed.

 

Apart from @Super19 not one poster has dealt with the fact of Isreali settlers acts of terror.

How Isreali settlers keep stealing more and more land on the west bank.

This is the most " valuable " land, farmland in particular that is needed if Palestinians are to have have their own state they need resources. 

What resources does Gaza have ?

Very limited resources. 

 

 

 

Well, again this is a hockey forum and we aren't obliged to solve the worlds woes, however, I think that it would be a very good thing to see the practice of settling in the west bank end, obviously, but again: how do you tell the heirs of settlers they have to move from the only place they have ever known? Are you leaving Australia any time soon?

 

Edit cuz i don't wanna type out another full post: In each particular situation, what are the details of the land confiscations? Lets say a rocket factory is discovered in Hebron, it has only one purpose: destroying Israeli's and their property. If Israel polices that situation and arrests the inhabitants and they are guilty of doing it, should they get to keep the land or should it be forfeited to the Nation of Israel? Keep in mind that both of our governments confiscate property that is used as a criminal enterprise..

 

Second point on that: Bethlehem was 87% christian not so long ago, now it is i think it is 92% muslim, should those lands be returned? If no because they were bought in legal commerce over time... then that is a caveat to the whole land back idea that would call for close scrutiny of each individual case. If the head of a household shoots at Israeli's and his house is forfeit, what exactly is the reason to give it back? I know there are all kinds of things and reasons for each case, some are clearly pure violations of international law, that much is very true, but not all, and in many cases the place is bought and paid for, like in Bethlehem. 

 

it is much more complicated than hockey fans care to admit and that is why it has been a quagmire for many generations. I don't think any of us or all of us can possibly come up with the solution here. 

[Ilunga]

35 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

Sorry, brother, but I’ll take personal experience and opinions of people who themselves and their kids are using these textbooks on regular basis over an academic research of a person with an unknown preconceived notions. I gave you an example of another Jewish scholar who came up I with the ost idiotic concept of her dissertation. Being Jewish or Israeli doesn’t automatically mean you are smart or reasonable. We’ll have to agree to disagree.

 

I will believe a person who has studied this subject and released her findings.

Them I will use my bullshit detectors to research her background.

Her Grandfather, Avraham Katsnelson, signed Isreals declaration of independence.

Her father was a famous Isreali general and became a peace activist, there should be a lot more of them in the world.

Her daughter was killed by a Palestinian suicide bomber, so she had every reason to be biased/ hate the Palestinians yet she advocates for them.

She is the co laureate for the European Parliament Sakharov prize for freedom of thought.

I really love me some freedom of thought.

 

All of these things contribute to me taking her work seriously.

 

[RomanPer]

2 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

I will believe a person who has studied this subject and released her findings.

Them I will use my bullshit detectors to research her background.

Her Grandfather, Avraham Katsnelson, signed Isreals declaration of independence.

Her father was a famous Isreali general and became a peace activist, there should be a lot more of them in the world.

Her daughter was killed by a Palestinian suicide bomber, so she had every reason to be biased/ hate the Palestinians yet she advocates for them.

She is the co laureate for the European Parliament Sakharov prize for freedom of thought.

I really love me some freedom of thought.

 

All of these things contribute to me taking her work seriously.

 

 

Maybe. But i will always believe my own eyes and judgement rather than someone else telling me what I should believe.

[Ilunga]

28 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

Aren't you in Australia? Were your ancestors from there or.....would you have to 'go home' to Europe if you practiced what you preach?

 

I don't know were my biological ancestors are from, I am adopted.

As for my real parents, mum was 4th generation Australian, dad was a ten pound pom.

 

First off,

I have researched the place I live in, Monbulk had no indigenous presence before European settlement. 

 

Secondly, my father and mother legally bought our farm, cleared the land and built up the farm.

 

So no, by my logic I am at home.

Neither I or nor my parents illegally acquired/ stole the land I live on, unlike the Isreali settlers, that have been illegally acquiring/stealing land from the Palestinians, and have been doing this for decades.