Hamas attacking Israel

[Ilunga]

5 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

Maybe. But i will always believe my own eyes and judgement rather than someone else telling me what I should believe.

 Fair enough, that is something I really respect.

 

Please remember, I am never telling people what they should believe.

I present what I believe to be factual information and leave it up to them to make their own mind up.

[Optimist Prime]

7 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

I don't know were my biological ancestors are from, I am adopted.

As for my real parents, mum was 4th generation Australian, dad was a ten pound pom.

 

First off,

I have researched the place I live in, Monbulk had no indigenous presence before European settlement. 

 

Secondly, my father and mother legally bought our farm, cleared the land and built up the farm.

 

So no, by my logic I am at home.

Neither I or nor my parents illegally acquired/ stole the land I live on, unlike the Isreali settlers, that have been illegally acquiring/stealing land from the Palestinians, and have been doing this for decades.

But you have not researched every unique case of 'settlers' in the West Bank though, but you are confident from another continent to lump them all together, Okay. 

[Super19]

This is pretty clear cut: (the video not the tweet)

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by Super19

[Ilunga]

9 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

But you have not researched every unique case of 'settlers' in the West Bank though, but you are confident from another continent to lump them all together, Okay. 

 

Actually I have researched this subject quite thoroughly.

 

For the third time I will post this article, Isreali human rights source

 

http://www.btselem.org/publications/summaries/200205_land_grab

 

Remember this article is dated 2002, hundreds of thousands of Isreali settlers have stolen land since, under the frame work that article illustrates. 

 

The international community has condemned these settlements for decades.

 

My society 

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-16/australia-condemns-israel-over-occupied-west-bank-settlements/101986598

 

Your society

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-israel-west-bank-reverse-1.6894361

 

And it seems your representatives have the courage to call out settler violence 

 

https://www.canada.ca/en/global-affairs/news/2023/11/statement-on-increase-in-israeli-settler-violence-against-palestinians-in-west-bank.html

 

Is it that hard for those in this thread to do the same ? 

To admit the truth ?

 

Even Isreals staunchest ally America is calling them out 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/11/10/white-house-israel-west-bank-violence/

 

Whatever the number, can't you admit what everyone else knows is a fact ?

That Isreali settlers are stealing land from the Palestinians.

[Optimist Prime]

1 minute ago, Ilunga said:

 

Actually I have researched this subject quite thoroughly.

 

For the third time I will post this article, Isreali human rights source

 

http://www.btselem.org/publications/summaries/200205_land_grab

 

Remember this article is dated 2002, hundreds of thousands of Isreali settlers have stolen land since, under the frame work that article illustrates. 

 

The international community has condemned these settlements for decades.

 

My society 

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-16/australia-condemns-israel-over-occupied-west-bank-settlements/101986598

 

Your society

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-israel-west-bank-reverse-1.6894361

 

And it seems your representatives have the courage to call out settler violence 

 

https://www.canada.ca/en/global-affairs/news/2023/11/statement-on-increase-in-israeli-settler-violence-against-palestinians-in-west-bank.html

 

Is it that hard for those in this thread to do the same ? 

To admit the truth ?

 

Even Isreals staunchest ally America is calling them out 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/11/10/white-house-israel-west-bank-violence/

 

Whatever the number, can't you admit what everyone else knows is a fact ?

That Isreali settlers are stealing land from the Palestinians.

It does happen and the practice should stop. Full stop. Period. But as for giving land back, if that happens at all, it would need to a case by case examination, and again, I am not sure you can kick out anyone born and raised in a given place, maybe, I guess that would all be in some future negotiation that can only occur in peace   

[Ilunga]

1 minute ago, Optimist Prime said:

It does happen and the practice should stop. Full stop. Period. But as for giving land back, if that happens at all, it would need to a case by case examination, and again, I am not sure you can kick out anyone born and raised in a given place, maybe, I guess that would all be in some future negotiation that can only occur in peace   

 

Well the Isrealis sure kicked out people that were born and raised in a given place.

They have been doing it for decades. 

 

I don't qualify my condemnation of Hamas's brutal terrorist attack on October the 7th, or any of their heinous actions before that either. 

Pure and simple they have to be neutralized. 

 

The same applies to settler violence and stealing land from Palestinians.

There is no justification, these things have to stop.

[Optimist Prime]

1 minute ago, Ilunga said:

 

Well the Isrealis sure kicked out people that were born and raised in a given place.

They have been doing it for decades. 

 

I don't qualify my condemnation of Hamas's brutal terrorist attack on October the 7th, or any of their heinous actions before that either. 

Pure and simple they have to be neutralized. 

 

The same applies to settler violence and stealing land from Palestinians.

There is no justification, these things have to stop.

Agreed, I think we almost all agree on that.

[Optimist Prime]

The thing is each historical case is different. If a Jewish Israeli buys a house from your landlord and evicts you and moves in: that happens all over, someone buys a renters house and evicts them every day all over the globe. The illegal settling needs to stop, absolutely, but reversing historical situations en mass is not something I would say is a good idea. 

[Super19]

[Ilunga]

10 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

The thing is each historical case is different. If a Jewish Israeli buys a house from your landlord and evicts you and moves in: that happens all over, someone buys a renters house and evicts them every day all over the globe. The illegal settling needs to stop, absolutely, but reversing historical situations en mass is not something I would say is a good idea. 

 

You know why the Isrealis want the land on the west bank ?

Because it's the most valuable in regards to resources, especially the farmland.

How can the Palestinians form a viable state with resources/ assets to back up an economy.

 

As for Gaza if this is true 

 

https://www.commondreams.org/news/israel-settlements-gaza

 

" A house on the beach is not a dream " reads an advertisement published by Harey  Zahav, a company notorious for building settlements in the illegally occupied west bank "

 

While it states this is not state backed, this company seems to be planning on taking land in Gaza already. 

 

And I have already bought up this case, an Aussie trying to take land in Jerusalem from Armenians that have been living there for over 1600 years.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/religionandethicsreport/property-deal-could-threaten-armenian-presence-in-holy-land/103126920

 

I live my life by one simple rule, treat others the way I want to be treated.

I want to be treated fairly and with justice, don't you believe we should treat the Palestinians the same way we expect to be treated ?

 

 

 

[Super19]

We need a full investigation of Oct 7 to know exactly what did and didn't happen.

 

 

[Bob Long]

17 minutes ago, Super19 said:

We need a full investigation of Oct 7 to know exactly what did and didn't happen.

 

 

 

Who would you trust to run it? 

[Ilunga]

9 hours ago, AatuD2 said:

One of the rare Norman Finkelstein interviews where he's allowed to speak without being interrupted every five seconds... 

 

 

 

 

 

Wow, they were  powerful words.

 

Parents were in the Warsaw Ghetto, one was at Auschwitz.

 

 I love how he states he is not pro Isreal, he is not pro Palestinian, he is pro Justice, he is pro truth. 

 

People should listen to this video.

 

Thanks for posting brother.

[RomanPer]

15 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Wow, they were  powerful words.

 

Parents were in the Warsaw Ghetto, one was at Auschwitz.

 

 I love how he states he is not pro Isreal, he is not pro Palestinian, he is pro Justice, he is pro truth. 

 

People should listen to this video.

 

Thanks for posting brother.

 

All I can say to this - Marxism on paper also looks very cool and appealing. The harsh realities on the ground are very far from the idealistic views of the world the academics of social studies have.

[Ilunga]

3 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

Well, again this is a hockey forum and we aren't obliged to solve the worlds woes, however, I think that it would be a very good thing to see the practice of settling in the west bank end, obviously, but again: how do you tell the heirs of settlers they have to move from the only place they have ever known? Are you leaving Australia any time soon?

 

Edit cuz i don't wanna type out another full post: In each particular situation, what are the details of the land confiscations? Lets say a rocket factory is discovered in Hebron, it has only one purpose: destroying Israeli's and their property. If Israel polices that situation and arrests the inhabitants and they are guilty of doing it, should they get to keep the land or should it be forfeited to the Nation of Israel? Keep in mind that both of our governments confiscate property that is used as a criminal enterprise..

 

Second point on that: Bethlehem was 87% christian not so long ago, now it is i think it is 92% muslim, should those lands be returned? If no because they were bought in legal commerce over time... then that is a caveat to the whole land back idea that would call for close scrutiny of each individual case. If the head of a household shoots at Israeli's and his house is forfeit, what exactly is the reason to give it back? I know there are all kinds of things and reasons for each case, some are clearly pure violations of international law, that much is very true, but not all, and in many cases the place is bought and paid for, like in Bethlehem. 

 

it is much more complicated than hockey fans care to admit and that is why it has been a quagmire for many generations. I don't think any of us or all of us can possibly come up with the solution here. 

 

Missed this post.

 

Very poor argument comparing the situation here in Aus.

 

We have given our indigenous people land rights.

 

https://www.nma.gov.au/defining-moments/resources/aboriginal-land-rights-act

 

Our high court has overturned terra nullius 

 

https://www.aph.gov.au/Visit_Parliament/Art/Stories_and_Histories/The_Mabo_decision

 

We have apologised for for the stolen generation

 

https://www.aph.gov.au/Visit_Parliament/Art/Icons/Apology_to_Australias_Indigenous_Peoples

 

The only fuck up so far on the road to justice was the failed referendum on a voice to Parliament a few months ago, I voted yes. 

 

Here are some thoughts from a Jewish Australian about the similarities between us and Isreal vis a vis terra nullius 

 

https://johnmenadue.com/ron-witton-zionism-and-terra-nullius-a-haunting-parallel-between-israel-and-australia/

 

 

Long before I was a hockey fan I have been a history buff.

I believe my posting history illustrates the depth of my knowledge on world history, politics and religion. 

 

I will claim to have an answer to this conflict, a very simple one, that Palestinians treat Isrealis the way they expect to be treated themselves, and Isrealis reciprocate in kind.

[Ilunga]

8 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

All I can say to this - Marxism on paper also looks very cool and appealing. The harsh realities on the ground are very far from the idealistic views of the world the academics of social studies have.

 

It was his thoughts/ words in relation to the conflict in Palestine/ Isreal I was referring to.

 

As for Marxism, I don't know how many times I have to say this, if one has read the communist manifesto and Das Kapital, then one would know there has never been a truly Marxist society on this planet, they way Marx himself envisioned it. 

 

The big 2 who tried, Russia and China, their people have always been fucked over by a ruling elite, Tzars and Emperor's.

Now fucked up dictators.

Not much difference for the average person, freedom wise, between any of these regimes. 

 

[RomanPer]

2 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

It was his thoughts/ words in relation to the conflict in Palestine/ Isreal I was referring to.

 

As for Marxism, I don't know how many times I have to say this, if one has read the communist manifesto and Das Kapital, then one would know there has never been a truly Marxist society on this planet, they way Marx himself envisioned it. 

 

The big 2 who tried, Russia and China, their people have always been fucked over by a ruling elite, Tzars and Emperor's.

Now fucked up dictators.

Not much difference for the average person, freedom wise, between any of these regimes. 

 

 

Well, this is exactly what I meant. Theory and practice is not the same. As to why both russia and China experiences failed - I have a different opinion. It’s not that their people were fucked over by a ruling elite. It’s the fact that the theory itself isn’t taking into account human nature and instead paints the rosy picture of total equality. People who work hard and effective can’t be expected to live the same way as lazy people (and support these lazy people). It’s been proven over and over - the moment people don’t see benefits for trying to be better, they slowly roll down into mediocrity.

[Ilunga]

9 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

Well, this is exactly what I meant. Theory and practice is not the same. As to why both russia and China experiences failed - I have a different opinion. It’s not that their people were fucked over by a ruling elite. It’s the fact that the theory itself isn’t taking into account human nature and instead paints the rosy picture of total equality. People who work hard and effective can’t be expected to live the same way as lazy people (and support these lazy people). It’s been proven over and over - the moment people don’t see benefits for trying to be better, they slowly roll down into mediocrity.

 

Oh I agree and I have brought this up before.

We are all equal in regards to basic human rights, however some people are driven to achieve more than others, they should be rewarded accordingly.

 

However a world where 1 percent of the population controls 50 percent of the wealth ?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/nov/14/worlds-richest-wealth-credit-suisse

 

That's messed up.

 

 

I would also like to add I have a great deal of respect for the fact that you continue to discuss these things with me when they are of a very personal nature to you. 

I have a great deal of respect for you.

 

 

 

[Super19]

1 hour ago, Bob Long said:

 

Who would you trust to run it? 

Sherlock Holmes. Lol. Someone or agency that can run some investigative journalism can accomplish something close to the truth. Def don't trust Steven Speilberg to do it. There's enough info for me at least that leads me to believe the shocking narrative that was spun in the first few days was not factual/the truth. That's why I've asked several times what atrocities do people in this thread subscribe to in regards to Oct 7?- There's still people talking about 40 beheaded babies as if that actually happened. 

 

Meanwhile, Israel is killing an unprecedented rate of journalists in Gaza all while blocking willing journalists to do their jobs in Gaza right now. These are major red flags to me.

[Super19]

3 minutes long. After watching this video you will see that Israel is doing exactly what they fear Hamas would do (if Hamas had the capabilty). Personally, I think it's even worse.

 

[Super19]

"Israelism" is now available to watch: @Sabrefan1

 

https://kinema.com/events/israelism-worldwide-rental-tdqdt3

 

When two young American Jews raised to unconditionally love Israel witness the brutal way Israel treats Palestinians, their lives take sharp left turns. They join a movement of young American Jews battling the old guard to redefine Judaism’s relationship with Israel, revealing a deepening generational divide over modern Jewish identity.

 

[Sabrefan1]

1 hour ago, Super19 said:

"Israelism" is now available to watch: @Sabrefan1

 

https://kinema.com/events/israelism-worldwide-rental-tdqdt3

 

When two young American Jews raised to unconditionally love Israel witness the brutal way Israel treats Palestinians, their lives take sharp left turns. They join a movement of young American Jews battling the old guard to redefine Judaism’s relationship with Israel, revealing a deepening generational divide over modern Jewish identity.

 

 

Thanks.  I'll give it a watch.

[Ilunga]

2 hours ago, Super19 said:

"Israelism" is now available to watch: @Sabrefan1

 

https://kinema.com/events/israelism-worldwide-rental-tdqdt3

 

When two young American Jews raised to unconditionally love Israel witness the brutal way Israel treats Palestinians, their lives take sharp left turns. They join a movement of young American Jews battling the old guard to redefine Judaism’s relationship with Israel, revealing a deepening generational divide over modern Jewish identity.

 

 

@RomanPer 

 

What this lady, Simone, states at the start of the video reminds me of something I believe you stated 

2 Jewish people can have 3 opinions.

[Elias Pettersson]

6 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

Well the Isrealis sure kicked out people that were born and raised in a given place.

They have been doing it for decades. 

 

I don't qualify my condemnation of Hamas's brutal terrorist attack on October the 7th, or any of their heinous actions before that either. 

Pure and simple they have to be neutralized. 

 

The same applies to settler violence and stealing land from Palestinians.

There is no justification, these things have to stop.

 

I don't believe anyone has ever argued that point my friend.  The Palestinians have had many chances to claim their land and refused, so it's also on them in terms of why they are in their current state.  This could have all been avoided as far back as 1947.  Greed takes over for most and the Palestinians wanted more land than they were offered and went to war to fight for it.  They lost that war.  So now they are in the situation they are in now, even after more peace deals after 1947 that they refused.

 

I believe everyone in this thread wants a two state solution, so stating that Israel is stealing land at a time of war doesn't really help the situation or help with any peaceful ending to this war.

 

The only way this war ends peacefully is for Hamas to either surrender and then negotiations can start, or they are obliterated from the earth.  That's where we are at right now.  The pro Palestinian side is of the opinion that Israel has gone too far, killing women and children and so they need to put their arms down.  The problem with this scenario is that as soon as Israel puts their arms down, Hamas will start to attack again and their will be another violent terrorist attack.  You simply cannot negotiate with terrorists.  That is the core issue and why this war won't end until Hamas has been defeated.

[Elias Pettersson]

3 hours ago, Super19 said:

"Israelism" is now available to watch: @Sabrefan1

 

https://kinema.com/events/israelism-worldwide-rental-tdqdt3

 

When two young American Jews raised to unconditionally love Israel witness the brutal way Israel treats Palestinians, their lives take sharp left turns. They join a movement of young American Jews battling the old guard to redefine Judaism’s relationship with Israel, revealing a deepening generational divide over modern Jewish identity.

 

 

It's easy for an American Jew who is living in the US to tell the Israelis what to do when they are 3000 miles from the war.  How would they be feeling if they were actually living in Israel and their family was murdered by Hamas terrorists?  Would they be talking the same way?  Would they be telling the Israeli army to lay down their weapons so that Hamas can have free reign on more terror attacks?  An American Jew doesn't have to worry about their house being bombed and their family being murdered...