Hamas attacking Israel

[Canuck Surfer]

https://apnews.com/article/vatican-lgbtq-pope-bfa5b71fa79055626e362936e739d1d8

 

The pope approves blessing of LGBTQ couples.  Personally I see this as one of the single biggest moves in religion!

 

Maybe it also means Hamas no longer wants Bethlehem in the West Bank?

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

12 hours ago, Sharpshooter said:

That could easily be turned around to the apartheid type life the Palestinians have been living in for decades. 
 

It doesn’t excuse Hamas’s attacks however. 
 

It’s just a reality of the causation by Israel upon Palestine. 
 

The causation can be furthered by Palestinians choosing Hamas as their leadership. 
 

And on and we go Ad Reductio 

 

Where does it end? Only when there’s two States that are both thriving. 

 

I believe in a free home for Palestine.  I believe many / most in Israel do as well. To some, with security assurances, but believe. Many cow tow to extremist groups within their politics.  Yet allow almost 2 million people of Arab descent to live & have citizenship. Had Gazan citizens crossing the border for jobs until Oct 7. 

 

Its an imperfect balance which includes obvious abuses; yet more liberal than a Hamas view that will 'never' accept an Israeli state @Ilunga. Its no longer about blame.

 

 

This remains the absolute bell toll for regional peace? Is there a Gazan / West Bank leadership group that can embrace coexistence... Gazan people certainly deserve peace. Egypt, Jordan have made peace deals with Israel. Jordan perhaps, certainly historically, which could also easily be argued of Egypt, at the expense of people who called themselves Palestinian. Nonetheless have made peace, accept Israel as the Saudi empire appears willing to do?  

[Ilunga]

54 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

I don't believe anyone has ever argued that point my friend.  The Palestinians have had many chances to claim their land and refused, so it's also on them in terms of why they are in their current state.  This could have all been avoided as far back as 1947.  Greed takes over for most and the Palestinians wanted more land than they were offered and went to war to fight for it.  They lost that war.  So now they are in the situation they are in now, even after more peace deals after 1947 that they refused.

 

I believe everyone in this thread wants a two state solution, so stating that Israel is stealing land at a time of war doesn't really help the situation or help with any peaceful ending to this war.

 

The only way this war ends peacefully is for Hamas to either surrender and then negotiations can start, or they are obliterated from the earth.  That's where we are at right now.  The pro Palestinian side is of the opinion that Israel has gone too far, killing women and children and so they need to put their arms down.  The problem with this scenario is that as soon as Israel puts their arms down, Hamas will start to attack again and their will be another violent terrorist attack.  You simply cannot negotiate with terrorists.  That is the core issue and why this war won't end until Hamas has been defeated.

 

They have been stealing land for decades before this conflict.

Have you read the B'tselem article I have posted three times now ? 

 

Here it is again 

 

http://www.btselem.org/publications/summaries/200205_land_grab

 

Note this is dated 2 decades ago.

 

Also amongst many crucial details in this article is the fact that these settlements breach international human rights law.

 

" The establishment of settlements on the west bank violate international humanitarian law, which establishes the principles which apply during war and occupation. Moreover the settlements lead to the infringement of  international of international human rights law " 

 

As I have pointed out in another post, it was the work of an Israeli, Ben Ferenc, at the Nuremberg war trials that formed the basis for international human rights law.

 

So my question to you brother, is do you believe that people should abide by international human rights law ?  

 

Did you read my post about the Oslo peace accords, facts that are known and some that aren't well known.

Do you know that it that it was a far right Isreali extremist that assinated Yitzhak Rabin for signing the Oslo agreement ? 

 

That that agreement never dealt with the hard issues, Jerusalem, Palestinian refugees, borders were taken out of it 

That it was Arafat that asked the Norwegians as far back as 1979 for a back door to negotiate and Isreal refused at the time ?

 

https://remix.aljazeera.com/aje/PalestineRemix/the-price-of-oslo.html

 

 

 

 

 

As for Hamas I don't know how many times I have to say this, they have to be neutralized by whatever means possible.

But we, as the international community are starting to ask, at what cost to innocent Palestinians ? 

 

And no I am not stating they should not be brought to justice for their crimes, one way or another.

 

[Ilunga]

7 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

I believe in a free home for Palestine.  I believe many / most in Israel do as well. To some, with security assurances, but believe. Many cow tow to extremist groups within their politics.  Yet allow almost 2 million people of Arab descent to live & have citizenship. Had Gazan citizens crossing the border for jobs until Oct 7. 

 

Its an imperfect balance which includes obvious abuses; yet more liberal than a Hamas view that will 'never' accept an Israeli state @Ilunga. Its no longer about blame.

 

 

This remains the absolute bell toll for regional peace? Is there a Gazan / West Bank leadership group that can embrace coexistence... Gazan people certainly deserve peace. Egypt, Jordan have made peace deals with Israel. Jordan perhaps, certainly historically, which could also easily be argued of Egypt, at the expense of people who called themselves Palestinian. Nonetheless have made peace, accept Israel as the Saudi empire appears willing to do?  

 

I agree with most of what you state however there is one big difference between the countries you have named and the occupied territories, those territories are occupied, breaching international law.

 

As for the Isreali people, I have posted articles and videos of both Isreali and Palestinian people working together for peace, and Isrealis who are sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, however the make up of the Isreali goverment, with a coalition of extreme right wing parties holding power, illustrates that many Isrealis are not sympathetic, they actually are working against a two state solution.

Netanyahu has openly admitted this.

[Canuck Surfer]

On 12/18/2023 at 5:46 AM, Super19 said:

I don't know how much of a role Russia has played so far other than just being an enemy of the US.

 

But yes, the "Axis of Evil" as Fox News would describe it is made up of Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, Hamas. I guess you can add the Houthis to this list now as well. They are all kind of like allies but act independently... with Iran as the lead. Without Iran and Syria, Hamas would certainly have zero capability and Oct 7 would not have happened. Iran gives the financial backing and it is through Syria where these factions like Hezbollah and Hamas find themselves armed. There was that little war between Hezbollah and IDF in 2006, the "Arab Spring" in 2011, the ongoing conflict in Syria can all be events somehow linked with Israel-Palestine and the region and the US and its allies/proxies. At the end of the day it all seems interconnected and a big web. Would highly derail the thread. But to truly dismantle Hamas, it seems like all these countries would need to be dealt with as well... it's Hamas' financial backing,  weaponry and training.

 

What do you know about the Arab Spring?  Honest question, not designed to troll...

 

It was an interesting time.  Long term influential groups, historically highly corrupt, held leadership roles in Palestine, East Africa, Yemen, Syria came under pressure. From a new guard.  Including Hamas. Some old guard groups survived, like in Syria. Were dispatched or subdued, like the PLO/PA, dictators like Saleh in Yemen, al-Bashir in Sudan. There was Western & Russian interference. More notable in Iraq by the West, as some would call a precursor. Yet it is hard, near impossible to force a regime on cultures very different to your own. I am not sure most new groups are better than those dispatched, or survived?        

[Canuck Surfer]

14 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

there is one big difference between the countries you have named and the occupied territories, those territories are occupied, breaching international law.

 

True & not true.

 

I wholeheartedly agree settlement in occupied lands is illegal. Needs to be stopped. Occupation itself? Illegal or otherwise I believe Israel needs the occupied Golan Heights & West Bank to currently be occupied for it's survival. Not that they have a right to actual ongoing land grabs, commercial, private or otherwise. Not annexation, purges, marches or further de-settlement.

 

Gaza is not occupied.  I am less critical of Israel here, than in West Bank & East Jerusalem, perhaps southern Lebanon. Only in terms of defining it occupied; they left Gaza in 2006. West Bank & Gaza have been offered two state solutions, including release of occupied territories.  As much as stopping wing nut extremists in Israel is like gagging Trump. There are many places in West Bank I would happily endorse 'giving back' in return for security.

 

If it were wholly my opinion, there are some contested places that should be permanently multi-cultural, de-militarized!  

[Ilunga]

17 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

True & not true.

 

I wholeheartedly agree settlement in occupied lands is illegal. Needs to be stopped. Occupation itself? Illegal or otherwise I believe Israel needs the occupied Golan Heights & West Bank to currently be occupied for it's survival. Not that they have a right to actual ongoing land grabs, commercial, private or otherwise. Not annexation, purges, marches or further de-settlement.

 

Gaza is not occupied.  I am less critical of Israel here, than in West Bank & East Jerusalem, perhaps southern Lebanon. Only in terms of defining it occupied; they left Gaza in 2006. West Bank & Gaza have been offered two state solutions, including release of occupied territories.  As much as stopping wing nut extremists in Israel is like gagging Trump. There are many places in West Bank I would happily endorse 'giving back' in return for security.

 

If it were wholly my opinion, there are some contested places that should be permanently multi-cultural, de-militarized!  

 

I am not talking about Gaza.

The west bank and east Jerusalem form the current occupied territories. 

 

You have just illustrated why there will never be peace.

There are enough extremists on the Isreali side to keep the dream of a Palestinian state from ever happening, the last 20 years of various Isreali governments has proven this.

 

That fuels the extremists on the Palestinian side that will resort to violence in order to try and form a Palestinian state.

It's an endless loop.

[Canuck Surfer]

7 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

That fuels the extremists on the Palestinian side that will resort to violence in order to try and form a Palestinian state.

It's an endless loop.

 

Your opinion.  A widespread one I fully recognize. I also believe Israel has to enforce behaviour within occupied zones and condemn abuse. As the wealthier and 1st world nation its justice system should be roping down its own abusers. Enforcing rule of law. Which Israel is not; they are part of the problem. An unfortunately healthy part!

 

My opinion is the corruption is top down and vastly more widespread in militant autocracies / dictatorships throughout the Islamic world. You can't run a Kebab shop in places like Gaza city, Baghdad or Mogadishu without experiencing street gangs & payola. Live in fear of 'moral police' in Tehran. Hell there are gangs in London patrolling club districts for girls wearing mini skirts & rave clothes. There is death and human rights abuses throughout. The common tie is most ME administrations are in place & enforced by militant control.  Most, including Hamas have leaders that become incredibly wealthy by enforcing control, cultural coercions of their people. People who get told they are indeed victims in widespread propaganda, often engrained over generations including through religion. Yet also get the butt end of a rifle in the back of the head, if not worse, see Sinwar, if anyone questions / resists what is going on!  

 

My opinion is the King of Jordan, the Saudi's, Iranians, Iraqis, Egyptians, Turks, Syrians & others would all have gladly gobbled up Jerusalem, Tel Aviv & the West Bank. 'Palestine' if Israel had not done so militarily in 1948/49. Many times since! The key problem is each of these groups wants to be dominant individually for the wealth of their feudal leaders. Secondarily as a whole of Muslim nations, for control of what is sacred to their culture; be damned if so to anyone else...  

 

 

 

Many of these nations, see Jordan & Syria, have killed more Palestinians than Israel. I'll only repeat I believe a home and sovereignty, peace is a needed outcome for Palestinians.  Hardly the only culture in the Arab world who are victims.  Most not to Israel.

 

[Optimist Prime]

Why every aid truck crossing the border needs to be thoroughly searched. These rockets were hidden inside a rig and had the capability to hit Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. 

[Bob Long]

2 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

Why every aid truck crossing the border needs to be thoroughly searched. These rockets were hidden inside a rig and had the capability to hit Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. 

 

 

but sure, ceasefire and pull out 

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

 

Is this interview ^^ rigged?

 

 

[RomanPer]

6 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

It's easy for an American Jew who is living in the US to tell the Israelis what to do when they are 3000 miles from the war.  How would they be feeling if they were actually living in Israel and their family was murdered by Hamas terrorists?  Would they be talking the same way?  Would they be telling the Israeli army to lay down their weapons so that Hamas can have free reign on more terror attacks?  An American Jew doesn't have to worry about their house being bombed and their family being murdered...

 

Exactly. It's the exact same as "Norm Finkelstein" or "Noam Chomsky" argument. Just because someone is Jewish doesn't mean they carry ultimate answers about everything related to Israel.

 

Found this very funny:

 

[AatuD2]

16 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

I too was gonna say, I can't think of any reason for the current 'divide' other than before it happened a bus or a busy market or a large gathering like a wedding or a funeral were blown up on a daily basis. I know it sounds like collective punishment, but the vast majority of folks who went to gaza did so of their own accord, and after, Israel simply built a protective fence, again in self defence: what do you do when that one neighbour continuously breaks your stuff, kills your people and steals what they can carry off? You build a big fence and arm yourself. 

 

Also, for what it is worth, there is a large number of Arab Israeli's and there was a large number of Gazans who were allowed in and out of the strip to work. If Israel practiced apartheid in the sensationalist sense some folks try to use it as: that would not be the case. When the Government of Gaza attacks Israel, of COURSE Israel shuts down the border gates...what else do you do if you are the defending group? Absurd to call it apartheid when the reality is if Gazans were absolutely free to intermingle in Israel as they please we would be looking at hundreds of thousands of Dead Israeli's over the past 30 years. 

 

Again there have been 16 major attacks from Palestinians and their allies since Israel was created out of the British lands in the middle east. Israel only initiated one of them, and it was a day before the combined arab armies were going to attack her anyway... start 16 wars and then cry foul over how the nation reacts to you? Pshhhh.

 

Hang on, weren't the Palestinians displaced to begin with back in 1947? 

 

What do you mean they chose to move to Gaza? 

[AatuD2]

12 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

Wow, they were  powerful words.

 

Parents were in the Warsaw Ghetto, one was at Auschwitz.

 

 I love how he states he is not pro Isreal, he is not pro Palestinian, he is pro Justice, he is pro truth. 

 

People should listen to this video.

 

Thanks for posting brother.

 

Yeah, really well laid out with simple facts, no feelings one way or another. 

 

Starts at 6:50 

 

 

[AatuD2]

12 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

All I can say to this - Marxism on paper also looks very cool and appealing. The harsh realities on the ground are very far from the idealistic views of the world the academics of social studies have.

 

Norman Finkelstein has lived in New York, Israel, and Palestine. 

 

He has dedicated the last 40 years to studying this. 

 

He makes a very good recap of how it started and all significant events along the way. 

 

UN resolutions are really the ones that stand out to me and it's a travesty that none of them calling for a two-state solution weren't accepted. 

[RomanPer]

25 minutes ago, AatuD2 said:

 

Norman Finkelstein has lived in New York, Israel, and Palestine. 

 

He has dedicated the last 40 years to studying this. 

 

He makes a very good recap of how it started and all significant events along the way. 

 

UN resolutions are really the ones that stand out to me and it's a travesty that none of them calling for a two-state solution weren't accepted. 

 

RomanPer lived in Ukraine, Israel, Vancouver and worked in what is known as occupied territories for several years, interacting daily with Israelis and Palestinians alike. He has been involved in studying this for the last 32 years.

 

P.S. Finkelstein parents were pro-Soviet and anti West, while continuing to live in that damn West. Oh, how convenient, to be academic pacifist, to be enamored by the USSR but choosing not to pursue their dream to that new home and instead enjoying all the benefits of living in the free world. No wonder their kid was raised this way. There is a very good word for this - two-faced.

Edited December 20, 2023 by RomanPer

[Super19]

 

[Optimist Prime]

1 hour ago, AatuD2 said:

 

Hang on, weren't the Palestinians displaced to begin with back in 1947? 

 

What do you mean they chose to move to Gaza? 

some werre displaced but the majority fled in an initial panick of their own accord, like trying to get to friendly lines as the Arabs all attacked isreal at once. It is a complicated thing, the middle east, and isn't easily summed up with a tweet. 

[Taxi]

1 hour ago, AatuD2 said:

 

Norman Finkelstein has lived in New York, Israel, and Palestine. 

 

He has dedicated the last 40 years to studying this. 

 

He makes a very good recap of how it started and all significant events along the way. 

 

UN resolutions are really the ones that stand out to me and it's a travesty that none of them calling for a two-state solution weren't accepted. 

 

Finkelstein has been writing anti-Israel works his entire career, starting with his own thesis. He's hardly an unbiased source. He's entitled to his opinion. And you'll notice that nobody has tried to silence him, the way other people did with Rushdie. He's, however, not an authority of all Jewish people. And has no more credibility on the issue than any other pundit. 

[Optimist Prime]

17 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

You know why the Isrealis want the land on the west bank ?

Because it's the most valuable in regards to resources, especially the farmland.

 

Just on this one point: I have been there, top to bottom side to side. You have it backwards.

Hard to show with just a couple snaps but I think this highlights what I am talking about:

west bank lands dry and desert like, dusty and hardly any crops. Been that way whenever I was in the territory and it looks that way today from satellites. 

Israel: well irrigated, fertile and lush lands, generally speaking, until you get south of the dead sea and before Eilat on the Red Sea. 

 

[RomanPer]

For those who blaim everything on the settlers and paint them all with one brush - take some time and watch this documentary

 

[Bob Long]

4 hours ago, Super19 said:

 

 

Well if Lord Bebo says it, it must be true.

[Boudrias]

1 hour ago, RomanPer said:

For those who blaim everything on the settlers and paint them all with one brush - take some time and watch this documentary

 

Absolutely excellent Roman. Long but necessarily so. 

[Super19]

1 hour ago, RomanPer said:

For those who blaim everything on the settlers and paint them all with one brush - take some time and watch this documentary

 

"If I don't steal it someone else is gonna steal it"

It's laughable if it wasn't causing so much destruction.

[Ilunga]

9 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Your opinion.  A widespread one I fully recognize. I also believe Israel has to enforce behaviour within occupied zones and condemn abuse. As the wealthier and 1st world nation its justice system should be roping down its own abusers. Enforcing rule of law. Which Israel is not; they are part of the problem. An unfortunately healthy part!

 

My opinion is the corruption is top down and vastly more widespread in militant autocracies / dictatorships throughout the Islamic world. You can't run a Kebab shop in places like Gaza city, Baghdad or Mogadishu without experiencing street gangs & payola. Live in fear of 'moral police' in Tehran. Hell there are gangs in London patrolling club districts for girls wearing mini skirts & rave clothes. There is death and human rights abuses throughout. The common tie is most ME administrations are in place & enforced by militant control.  Most, including Hamas have leaders that become incredibly wealthy by enforcing control, cultural coercions of their people. People who get told they are indeed victims in widespread propaganda, often engrained over generations including through religion. Yet also get the butt end of a rifle in the back of the head, if not worse, see Sinwar, if anyone questions / resists what is going on!  

 

My opinion is the King of Jordan, the Saudi's, Iranians, Iraqis, Egyptians, Turks, Syrians & others would all have gladly gobbled up Jerusalem, Tel Aviv & the West Bank. 'Palestine' if Israel had not done so militarily in 1948/49. Many times since! The key problem is each of these groups wants to be dominant individually for the wealth of their feudal leaders. Secondarily as a whole of Muslim nations, for control of what is sacred to their culture; be damned if so to anyone else...  

 

 

 

Many of these nations, see Jordan & Syria, have killed more Palestinians than Israel. I'll only repeat I believe a home and sovereignty, peace is a needed outcome for Palestinians.  Hardly the only culture in the Arab world who are victims.  Most not to Israel.

 

 

You have extended this conversation of ours beyond the Palestinian- Isreali conflict, fair enough, I will take it further, what is fundamentally different about the way minorities, different races are treated in most places in the world, including here in Aus ? 

 

Remember last year when we went to the Good things festival ?

We saw Tism perform for the first time in 20 years 

This song while nearly 30 years old is still relevant today.

For those who might be confused, this is an anti- racist, anti-war song 

 

Warning for everyone, the lyrics are full on.