Hamas attacking Israel

[Ilunga]

3 hours ago, Taxi said:

 

Finkelstein has been writing anti-Israel works his entire career, starting with his own thesis. He's hardly an unbiased source. He's entitled to his opinion. And you'll notice that nobody has tried to silence him, the way other people did with Rushdie. He's, however, not an authority of all Jewish people. And has no more credibility on the issue than any other pundit. 

 

Nobody has tried to silence him ?

Seriously dude ?

You haven't heard of a guy called Alan Dershowitz ?

His campaign to block Finkelstein's bid for tenure at DePaul University.

His false accusations of plagiarism.

His false accusation that Finkelstein attended a holocaust denial even in Iran.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Finkelstein

 

To try and block/ stop a person from teaching is probably the most full on attempt to silence someone. 

 

 

[Taxi]

1 minute ago, Ilunga said:

 

Nobody has tried to silence him ?

Seriously dude ?

You haven't heard of a guy called Alan Dershowitz ?

His campaign to block Finkelstein's bid for tenure at DePaul University.

His false accusations of plagiarism.

His false accusation that Finkelstein attended a holocaust denial even in Iran.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Finkelstein

 

To try and block/ stop a person from teaching is probably the most full on attempt to silence someone. 

 

 

 

Feuding between academics is one thing. Did someone stab him in the face, the way they did with Rushdie? 

 

You also have your facts wrong. It was Finkelstein who accused Dershowitz of plagiarism. After this accusation, Dershowitz did not want Finklestein, understandably to tenure. It was 100% Finkelstein who started that conflict though, with his accusation against Dershowitz.  

 

Quote

Shortly after the publication of the book The Case for Israel, by Harvard Law School professor Alan Dershowitz, Norman Finkelstein alleged that it was "a collection of fraud, falsification, plagiarism and nonsense."^[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dershowitz–Finkelstein_affair

 

Also, Dershowitz has stated that he will publicly debate Finkelstein at any point. Public debate would give Finkelstein a public platform. That sounds like the opposite of silencing. 

[Super19]

This is who the Palestinians are supposed to co-exist with?

 

[Super19]

5 minutes ago, Taxi said:

 

Feuding between academics is one thing. Did someone stab him in the face, the way they did with Rushdie? 

 

You also have your facts wrong. It was Finkelstein who accused Dershowitz of plagiarism. After this accusation, Dershowitz did not want Finklestein, understandably to tenure. It was 100% Finkelstein who started that conflict though, with his accusation against Dershowitz.  

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dershowitz–Finkelstein_affair

 

Also, Dershowitz has stated that he will publicly debate Finkelstein at any point. Public debate would give Finkelstein a public platform. That sounds like the opposite of silencing. 

Finklestein mops the floor with Dershowitz. 

 

Dershowitz got schooled by an Al-Jazeera anchor just this past week.

[Super19]

 

[RomanPer]

1 hour ago, Super19 said:

"If I don't steal it someone else is gonna steal it"

It's laughable if it wasn't causing so much destruction.

So, by your logic, every Palestinian is a terrorist because Hamas did what they did on October 7th. Let’s continue generalizing…

[RomanPer]

3 minutes ago, Super19 said:

 

And he’s not wrong. Maybe unknowingly, all these figures parrot Hamas propaganda 

[Ilunga]

3 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

Just on this one point: I have been there, top to bottom side to side. You have it backwards.

Hard to show with just a couple snaps but I think this highlights what I am talking about:

west bank lands dry and desert like, dusty and hardly any crops. Been that way whenever I was in the territory and it looks that way today from satellites. 

Israel: well irrigated, fertile and lush lands, generally speaking, until you get south of the dead sea and before Eilat on the Red Sea. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.observerbd.com/news.php?id=447974

 

https://www.observerbd.com/news.php?id=447974

 

" Palestine is known for its olives, olive oil and vegetables, which are exported far and wide.

The olive trees in particular are an important symbol of Palestinians attachment to their land " 

 

https://news.mongabay.com/2023/11/palestinian-olive-farmers-hold-tight-to-their-roots-amid-surge-in-settler-attacks/

 

 

https://observers.france24.com/en/middle-east/20230808-palestinian-territories-west-bank-israel-settler-violence-stolen-livestock

 

All these articles illustrate examples of Isreali settlers trying or actually stealing Palestinians farmland on the west bank.

 

The Isrealis have the resources to turn that desert into viable farmland just as they have already done previously.

 

I am a farmer, I know that feeling of attachment to the land, the ebb and flow of seasons.

I don't even consider I own my land, I am merely it's legal custodian.

It's my duty to care for it the best I can and hand it on to the next generation, just as my parents did.

[Super19]

4 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.observerbd.com/news.php?id=447974

 

https://www.observerbd.com/news.php?id=447974

 

" Palestine is known for its olives, olive oil and vegetables, which are exported far and wide.

The olive trees in particular are an important symbol of Palestinians attachment to their land " 

 

https://news.mongabay.com/2023/11/palestinian-olive-farmers-hold-tight-to-their-roots-amid-surge-in-settler-attacks/

 

 

https://observers.france24.com/en/middle-east/20230808-palestinian-territories-west-bank-israel-settler-violence-stolen-livestock

 

All these articles illustrate examples of Isreali settlers trying or actually stealing Palestinians farmland on the west bank.

 

The Isrealis have the resources to turn that desert into viable farmland just as they have already done previously.

 

I am a farmer, I know that feeling of attachment to the land, the ebb and flow of seasons.

I don't even consider I own my land, I am merely it's legal custodian.

It's my duty to care for it the best I can and hand it on to the next generation, just as my parents did.

I think this is the 1st time olive trees have been brought up. Indigenous people would never burn down the olive trees that have been around for generations like the Israelis have. Nor would they dig up burial sites or destroy sacred sites. Yet people debate whose land it is? Indigenous people are willing to fight for their land and die in it.

[Optimist Prime]

2 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

Well if Lord Bebo says it, it must be true.

is that Vader's cousin?

[Optimist Prime]

58 minutes ago, Super19 said:

I think this is the 1st time olive trees have been brought up. Indigenous people would never burn down the olive trees that have been around for generations like the Israelis have. Nor would they dig up burial sites or destroy sacred sites. Yet people debate whose land it is? Indigenous people are willing to fight for their land and die in it.

My buddies olive grove in Turkey has some trees older than a thousand years in it!  You can't replace millennium aged olive trees, point of fact. I apologize for quoting you on this, it is just interesting to me. I will give you a rough pass (c-) on saying all indigenous people wouldn't do such and such...that is just pure BS in my books, but i get where you are coming from.

[Ilunga]

14 minutes ago, Taxi said:

 

Feuding between academics is one thing. Did someone stab him in the face, the way they did with Rushdie? 

 

You also have your facts wrong. It was Finkelstein who accused Dershowitz of plagiarism. After this accusation, Dershowitz did not want Finklestein, understandably to tenure. It was 100% Finkelstein who started that conflict though, with his accusation against Dershowitz.  

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dershowitz–Finkelstein_affair

 

Also, Dershowitz has stated that he will publicly debate Finkelstein at any point. Public debate would give Finkelstein a public platform. That sounds like the opposite of silencing. 

 

I should have been more clearer, he accused him of outright lies, misquotations and distortions, you are correct, it wasn't plagiarism he was accused of.  

The false accusation of attending a holocaust denial convention in Iran speaks volumes about Dershowitz's character.

 

So you are into victim blaming ? 

So because they were feuding, it's Finkelsteins fault that the Dershowitz initiated a campaign to stop him from teaching at DePaul University ?

These are 2 completely different matters.

Sounds like the actions of a spiteful, vindictive person to me 

 

 

However the fact remains that Dershowitz tried to silence him, he tried to stop him from teaching.

If you don't believe that trying to stop someone from teaching is not trying to silence them, you need lessons in critical thinking. 

 

 

[Taxi]

27 minutes ago, Super19 said:

 

There are now hundreds of examples of UN, IRCS, Amnesty, DWB, etc.. Employees who have been found to not only be Hamas members but actual fighters. It's a huge issue.

[Optimist Prime]

3 hours ago, RomanPer said:

For those who blaim everything on the settlers and paint them all with one brush - take some time and watch this documentary

 

I will watch this when i settle in for the night, I am interested, my understanding is only slightly better than cursory and I would like to learn more. I still think the practice should stop immediately, and perhaps in the negotiations that follow the removal of Hamas ability to wage war or terror, this could play a big part, however I still don't think you can undo the last 80 years of stuff with the stroke of a pen and moving almost a million settlers, imagine the kvetching. 

[Optimist Prime]

29 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

And he’s not wrong. Maybe unknowingly, all these figures parrot Hamas propaganda 

I was gonna say he is half right, but i think it is at the unlinked level of shared interests in 'fairness' or perceived fairness, not a fully formed thought, but I hear a lot of younger folks talk about fair, and I don't think they realize there has never been a fair decade in human history on a global scale..it is a myth like various religions. 

 

i will say though my wife and i were talking about this as we put the finishing touches on our 8 nights of lights (we put up seasonal lights to push away the dark..over 8 days usually, but this year it stretched a bit from the first Night oh Hanukah.  We were talking about the totallity of the horror show going on in the middle east and even Ukraine, and I suggested that I hope the youth of today are as successful at changing the world as the generation that moved the needle in North America from the 50s to the end of the 70s. That was a substantial shift towards rights and freedoms for regular folks, and I do wish the current youthful generation all the best of luck in moving the needle today towards a more fair and equitable future for all. 

I feel at my core I am a globalist, and I want everyone to succeed, be healthy and happy and prosperous. It isn't so much to ask, is it? 

[Alflives]

5 minutes ago, Taxi said:

There are now hundreds of examples of UN, IRCS, Amnesty, DWB, etc.. Employees who have been found to not only be Hamas members but actual fighters. It's a huge issue.

Hamas is evil. It’s not all all surprising they are hiding in those places. These evil people must be eliminated for Gaza good people to be free. 

[Ilunga]

5 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

My buddies olive grove has some trees older than a thousand years in it!  You can't replace millennium aged olive trees, point of fact. I apologize for quoting you on this, it is just interesting to me. I will give you a rough pass (c-) on saying all indigenous people wouldn't do such and such...that is just pure BS in my books, but i get where you are coming from.

 

3 years ago 

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN27E1Y5/

 

 

" More than a thousand (olive) trees owned by Palestinian farmers have been burned or damaged in the Isreali occupied territory since the harvest began three weeks ago, according to a United Nations report "

 

[Optimist Prime]

32 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.observerbd.com/news.php?id=447974

 

https://www.observerbd.com/news.php?id=447974

 

" Palestine is known for its olives, olive oil and vegetables, which are exported far and wide.

The olive trees in particular are an important symbol of Palestinians attachment to their land " 

 

https://news.mongabay.com/2023/11/palestinian-olive-farmers-hold-tight-to-their-roots-amid-surge-in-settler-attacks/

 

 

https://observers.france24.com/en/middle-east/20230808-palestinian-territories-west-bank-israel-settler-violence-stolen-livestock

 

All these articles illustrate examples of Isreali settlers trying or actually stealing Palestinians farmland on the west bank.

 

The Isrealis have the resources to turn that desert into viable farmland just as they have already done previously.

 

I am a farmer, I know that feeling of attachment to the land, the ebb and flow of seasons.

I don't even consider I own my land, I am merely it's legal custodian.

It's my duty to care for it the best I can and hand it on to the next generation, just as my parents did.

good post, no rebuttal.

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

I was gonna say he is half right, but i think it is at the unlinked level of shared interests in 'fairness' or perceived fairness, not a fully formed thought, but I hear a lot of younger folks talk about fair, and I don't think they realize there has never been a fair decade in human history on a global scale..it is a myth like various religions. 

Young people, in their free and safe life in the western world, are very idealistic. As they mature they become more conservative and they accept the realities of the real 

world. There is evil in the world. And that evil must be eliminated. Hamas is evil. 

[Ilunga]

33 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

And he’s not wrong. Maybe unknowingly, all these figures parrot Hamas propaganda 

 

So these people, who are often risking their lives to help some of the most vulnerable people in the world don't have credibility ?

 

They sacrifice money and give up one of the most precious things we all have, their time, to help others. 

I think their actions speak for themselves. 

 

Too bad we don't have more kind compassionate people like these in the world. 

 

I support/ donate to both these

organisations. 

 

Are you critical of their work in Ukraine 

 

https://www.unicef.org.au/donate/ukraine-emergency-appeal?utm_source=google&utm_medium=paid_search&utm_campaign=unicef_climate_conversion&utm_content=appeals_23&&mkwid=s&pcrid=675406551788&pkw=unicef ukraine&pmt=e&pdv=m&plid=&gclid=CjwKCAiAvoqsBhB9EiwA9XTWGbfiSLx1ffGH4nK45uBmHpmT0KITK1qLkW0Dn4gsfdLg9GmJbYQsURoCfUIQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

 

https://www.msf.org/ukraine

 

 

[Ilunga]

9 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Young people, in their free and safe life in the western world, are very idealistic. As they mature they become more conservative and they accept the realities of the real 

world. There is evil in the world. And that evil must be eliminated. Hamas is evil. 

 

Literally just received a 60th birthday card from my local politician, just over a month early and it blows me away she did this.

Anyway, I am just as idealistic now  as I was in teens - twenties

 

Inside the cover of ballads of the revolution by Good Riddance, Russ R writes a good little piece how punk rockers lose their ideals as they age and the system beats them down.

 

Not me.

[Optimist Prime]

19 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Young people, in their free and safe life in the western world, are very idealistic. As they mature they become more conservative and they accept the realities of the real 

world. There is evil in the world. And that evil must be eliminated. Hamas is evil. 

absolutely true, on both counts. I am leaning towards the idea that it looks like Israel has done the bulk of that work though, some clean up, mop up as it were, in the north end of the strip and the south end doesn't look like it will be such a long arduous and deadly mission for the IDF soldiers. Capturing 500 hamas soldiers in one day was a stroke of awesome. I would much rather they not be martyrs but face justice in handcuffs. Again, you can't take back a death penalty if you are mistaken and simply being a soldier of a government isn't a crime. Hamas is/was the government of Gaza...those responsible for the horror of Oct 7th can face justice without dying before they see a judge. 

 

If the war is won relatively soon by Israel, then everyone needs to turn towards making the peace work. 

[Optimist Prime]

13 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Literally just received a 60th birthday card from my local politician, just over a month early and it blows me away she did this.

Anyway, I am just as idealistic now  as I was in teens - twenties

 

Inside the cover of ballads of the revolution by Good Riddance, Russ R writes a good little piece how punk rockers lose their ideals as they age and the system beats them down.

 

Not me.

Few of you will like this; but i opened my card from the Trudeau's today and it put me on cloud nine. a short note and both signatures, and a photo of the family at Long Beach. Put a rosy glow in my cheeks while we put up lights this afternoon.

 

I have said this before in the political threads but when i was concerned for the environment i joined a party and built policy, rather than protest outside a building and annoy people. When I wanted weed legalized I joined a party and pushed up the chain from inside and fostered a culture that would eventually do exactly that. When I saw seniors buying catfood to eat in order to stretch their pension checks i joined a party and every year I sit on a council that examines and debates initiatives for old folks in need: most years a ten percent increase is the result but I am still pushing for a minimum living income for all 65+ Canadians. My 19 year old self sitting around a giant vaporizer at Sacred Herb in Victoria would be proud of 50 year old me. I know it. 

 

An oldie, but I cherish it, and yeah i dropped a few pounds since then and my hair is much longer now. 

[Ilunga]

29 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

I was gonna say he is half right, but i think it is at the unlinked level of shared interests in 'fairness' or perceived fairness, not a fully formed thought, but I hear a lot of younger folks talk about fair, and I don't think they realize there has never been a fair decade in human history on a global scale..it is a myth like various religions. 

 

i will say though my wife and i were talking about this as we put the finishing touches on our 8 nights of lights (we put up seasonal lights to push away the dark..over 8 days usually, but this year it stretched a bit from the first Night oh Hanukah.  We were talking about the totallity of the horror show going on in the middle east and even Ukraine, and I suggested that I hope the youth of today are as successful at changing the world as the generation that moved the needle in North America from the 50s to the end of the 70s. That was a substantial shift towards rights and freedoms for regular folks, and I do wish the current youthful generation all the best of luck in moving the needle today towards a more fair and equitable future for all. 

I feel at my core I am a globalist, and I want everyone to succeed, be healthy and happy and prosperous. It isn't so much to ask, is it? 

 

The generation you are referring to was unique.

 

I had this printed up on a t-shirt

 

" The great thing about being a human 

Is our ability to reason

But reason it don't work when no one cares

Two parts apathy one part despair " 

 

Pretty applicable to the generations since 

 

This song, by the same band sums up generation Z and the times we live 

 

This one is for you @bishopshodan

 

 

 

 

[Optimist Prime]

Just now, Ilunga said:

 

The generation you are referring to was unique.

 

I had this printed up on a t-shirt

 

" The great thing about being a human 

Is our ability to reason

But reason it don't work when no one cares

Two parts apathy one part despair " 

 

Pretty applicable to the generations since 

 

This song, by the same band sums up generation Z and the times we live 

 

This one is for you @bishopshodan

 

 

 

 

NOFX was a great group!!