Hamas attacking Israel

[Gnarcore]

2 hours ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

You actually think that the IDF is specifically targeting kids? 

They have shot kids throwing rocks at tanks. So yes? 

[CBH1926]

Australian police investigating if some of the protesters in Sydney were chanting “gas the Jews”

https://www.reuters.com/world/police-investigate-pro-palestinian-protest-sydney-opera-house-over-alleged-anti-2023-10-10/

[RomanPer]

1 hour ago, Ilunga said:

 

Well my moral compass is somewhat different than yours.

Targeting kids full stop is a crime against humanity as far as I am concerned. 

 

You can be confident all you like, however you don't know for a fact.

 

Can you state with  certainty that the religious fanatic settlers have made no plans to kill children ?

 

If you think there is a difference in your child being killed accidentally on purpose, or on purpose, is less painful to a parent, then I don't know what to say to you. 

 

The fact of the matter is that a lot more Palestinian children had been killed up until this conflict that is happening now.

 

There’s a small difference between individual lunatics (which i grant you, do exist between the settlers and not only settlers) and official government policy, don’t you think? Yes, i personally knew Dr. Goldstein, and until the actual horrendous act that he committed he was one of the sweetest people that I knew, who had countless Jewish children die in his hands. I doubt that helps to keep people sane.

[24K]

9 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

The British not holding their end of the bargain is not Israel’s fault. They owned the land and ultimately made the decision to offer the Palestinians only 38%. So they are somewhat responsible for everything that has happened as a result of that decision. 
 

I don’t think Israel is going to be the sole decision maker in all of this. The way I see it playing out is that Hezbollah, the Taliban and Iran will all get involved in the conflict and will all attack Israel. The US will back Israel and all hell will break loose. 
 

What happens after that is anyone’s guess but the threat of a nuclear war is very real. This conflict will make the Ukraine/Russis war look like a puppy show. It’s going to get real ugly. 

I am blaming the British. Of course Israel have nothing to do with the original sin. Everything after the six day war, they have a heavy hand in it. 

 

We will have ti see about the rest but it is definitely a very real outcome. 

[RomanPer]

2 minutes ago, Gnarcore said:

They have shot kids throwing rocks at tanks. So yes? 

 

Have you ever been in a tank that gets hit by a Molotov cocktail? I have a friend who had 60% body burns from the Molotov cocktail hitting his tank. It’s a little different from being a keyboard warrior.

[eeeeeeeeergh]

9 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

The British not holding their end of the bargain is not Israel’s fault. They owned the land and ultimately made the decision to offer the Palestinians only 38%. So they are somewhat responsible for everything that has happened as a result of that decision. 
 

I don’t think Israel is going to be the sole decision maker in all of this. The way I see it playing out is that Hezbollah, the Taliban and Iran will all get involved in the conflict and will all attack Israel. The US will back Israel and all hell will break loose. 
 

What happens after that is anyone’s guess but the threat of a nuclear war is very real. This conflict will make the Ukraine/Russis war look like a puppy show. It’s going to get real ugly. 

FWIW, as someone whos been following this conflict in detail since I was a child (family ties to the conflict and all) there is about a 0% chance this escalates to WW3

 

Most people dont realize that this is not the first time Israel has launched an all out ground assault in Gaza. Most recently, Israel intervened in 2014, back when the Arab world was actually MORE at odds with the West than they are today. Today, the Arab world has way more to lose, and you can see it in how they've responded. In 2014, the Arab world was threatening war with Israel. Today, they're "urging Israel to exercise restraint". Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and most of the Arab world have all been aiming to normalize relations with Israel for mutual economic benefit. 

 

Hezbollah can get involved all it likes, the last time it did, Israel annihilated it too, and the rest of the Arab world refused to intervene/participate.

 

Israel/Palestine will not become a proxy war for major powers because there is no strategic value to the land for any of them (unlike Ukraine which is strategically valuable for Russia and for NATO). The US knows it doesn't have to intervene because Israel has the means to wipe out Iran if it so wishes (nukes). China already released their statement urging restraint and a ceasefire - they have no interest in getting involved in a military conflict over Palestine/Israel. They're saving that for a potential future war over Taiwan.

 

 

People thinking this is going to cause WW3 is just a symptom of this being their first exposure to the Israel/Palestine crisis which has escalated past this point, and de-escalated, in times when Arab states had far more ability and desire to go to war than they do today. 

[Gnarcore]

1 minute ago, RomanPer said:

 

Have you ever been in a tank that gets hit by a Molotov cocktail? I have a friend who had 60% body burns from the Molotov cocktail hitting his tank. It’s a little different from being a keyboard warrior.

Keyboard warrior? Dude.....

Don't act like one is pristine here and the other isn't. I get this hits home for you but throwing out insults over rational discussion? 

[Jaimito]

 

 

 

[eeeeeeeeergh]

5 minutes ago, 24K said:

I am blaming the British. Of course Israel have nothing to do with the original sin. Everything after the six day war, they have a heavy hand in it. 

 

We will have ti see about the rest but it is definitely a very real outcome. 

I mean.. personally I blame the original settlers too. I don't blame their kids who were born in Israel though - they didnt choose where they were born. 

 

The only reason I even believe in a 2 state solution is because I don't think you can punish the children of the original sinners. It would be wrong to displace the people who were born in Israel since its inception. 

[eeeeeeeeergh]

10 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

Have you ever been in a tank that gets hit by a Molotov cocktail? I have a friend who had 60% body burns from the Molotov cocktail hitting his tank. It’s a little different from being a keyboard warrior.

Roman theres a difference between a stone and a molotov cocktail

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faris_Odeh

 

shot in the neck throwing a STONE not a molotov cocktail at a tank

 

14 years old

[RomanPer]

10 minutes ago, Gnarcore said:

Keyboard warrior? Dude.....

Don't act like one is pristine here and the other isn't. I get this hits home for you but throwing out insults over rational discussion? 

 

That wasn’t an insult. If you think that Molotov cocktail is irrelevant to a tank - it tells me that you’ve never seen real tank and real Molotov cocktail.

[Junkyard Dog]

9 minutes ago, eeeeeeeeergh said:

I mean.. personally I blame the original settlers too. I don't blame their kids who were born in Israel though - they didnt choose where they were born. 

 

The only reason I even believe in a 2 state solution is because I don't think you can punish the children of the original sinners. It would be wrong to displace the people who were born in Israel since its inception. 

 

What do you think of this proposal.

 

1 hour ago, Junkyard Dog said:

So do you guys think there's a world where Israel is able to work with the PLO to get rid of Hamas and perhaps get some neighbouring nations to renounce their support of Hamas?

 

In turn Israel would agree to allow control of Gaza to the PLO, end the blockade(after creating stability with the PLO following the removal of Hamas) and allow humanitarian aid to flow more freely following the stability created, Israel agreeing to remove or conceding(to the PLO which in turn could help the displaced Palestinians) the illegal settlements in the West Bank and Israel being a primary contributor(I am sure there would be tons of international support as well) to help fund the reconstruction of Gaza(following Hamas' defeat)?

 

Do you guys think the PLO and certain neighbouring nations like Saudi could agree to terms like these?

[Gnarcore]

1 minute ago, RomanPer said:

 

That wasn’t an insult. If you think that Molotov cocktail is irrelevant to a tank - it tells me that you’ve never seen real tank and real Molotov cocktail.

I said rocks man. ROCKS. Some kid is packing a molotov...shoot his ass. 

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, Gnarcore said:

I said rocks man. ROCKS. Some kid is packing a molotov...shoot his ass. 

Group of HAMAS attacking a tank. They are all bunched together with some shooting rockets, some throwing grenades, some throw Molotov cocktails, and some throwing rocks. 
Regardless what does this have to do with HAMAS murdering innocent women and children this weekend? 

[eeeeeeeeergh]

1 minute ago, Alflives said:

Group of HAMAS attacking a tank. They are all bunched together with some shooting rockets, some throwing grenades, some throw Molotov cocktails, and some throwing rocks. 
Regardless what does this have to do with HAMAS murdering innocent women and children this weekend? 

 

Hes talking about this, and other events like it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faris_Odeh

 

 

[Alflives]

Just now, eeeeeeeeergh said:

 

Hes talking about this, and other events like it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faris_Odeh

 

 

Still HAMAS cowards attacked innocent women and children this past weekend and are (as we type into this thread) torturing and murdering (beheading and filming it to put on the Internet) women, children, and elderly hostages. Totally sick. 

[RomanPer]

14 minutes ago, Gnarcore said:

I said rocks man. ROCKS. Some kid is packing a molotov...shoot his ass. 

 

Sorry, i misread then. IDF had clear instructions not to use live ammunition against rock throwers, only rubber bullets and tear gas.

[RomanPer]

17 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

 

What do you think of this proposal.

 

 

Who knows? Perhaps.

[Ilunga]

24 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

There’s a small difference between individual lunatics (which i grant you, do exist between the settlers and not only settlers) and official government policy, don’t you think? Yes, i personally knew Dr. Goldstein, and until the actual horrendous act that he committed he was one of the sweetest people that I knew, who had countless Jewish children die in his hands. I doubt that helps to keep people sane.

As you know Roman, I care about all people.

 

Isreali/ Jewish people have suffered for centuries, I couldn't believe the holacuast happened when I first learnt about it as a kid, who would treat people that way.

 

In my early teens I started reading books by Leon Uris, one of which Mila 18, a fictionalized account of the Warsaw ghetto really shocked me.

I researched the factual accounts, that was a lot harder back then, no internet, I was horrified.

 

My father told me about stories he was told by fellow British troops who liberated the Belsen concentration camp.

He actually didn't speak much about the war however he felt I should now about that. 

 

While I am not totally equating the treatment of the Palestinians with that, there is an element of persecution.

As I have posted, many prominent Isrealis agree with other international bodies that the Palestinians are victims of arpartheid. 

 

There is only wrong when women and children are suffering. 

My heart goes out to both Isrealis and Palestinians who are victims of this conflict.

 

 

[Darius]

48 minutes ago, eeeeeeeeergh said:

Great question - 

 

Letter on July 14, Hussein to Mcmahon:

 

"England to acknowledge the independence of the Arab countries, bounded on the North by Mersina and Adana up to 37 degrees of latitude, on which degree fall Birijik, Urfa, Mardin, Midiat, Jerizat (Ibn `Umar), Amadia, up to the border of Persia; on the east by the borders of Persia up to the Gulf of Basra; on the South by the Indian Ocean, with the exception of the position of Aden to remain as it is; on the west by the Red Sea, the Mediterranean Sea up to Mersina."

 

Oct 24, Mcmahon to Hussein:

 

" As for those regions lying within those frontiers wherein Great Britain is free to act without detriment to the interests of her ally, France... Great Britain is prepared to recognise and support the independence of the Arabs in all the regions within the limits demanded by the Sherif of Mecca."

 

 

I would also like the opportunity to explain the chronology here, because I think this is the root of the misunderstanding, and why people think "settler colonialism" is just rhetoric rather than a factual basis for what occured.

 

First of all - its important to acknowledge that in 1915, there was no state of "Israel" nor or was there a country known as "Palestine".

 

What there was was multiple towns and cities that made up the geographic region that we now know as Israel and Palestine with the following demographic makeup:

 

Jewish: 90,000

Non-Jewish (mix of Muslim and Christian): 600,000

 

Jewish people in the territories known as Israel/Palestine today amounted to around 12-13%. 

 

1917: Balfour declaration, and the British supports the mass migration of Jewish people in Europe and North America to "Palestine" (at this point this is what the entire territory was called). 

 

Between 1915 and 1947, over 500,000 Jewish people migrate from Europe and North America to "Palestine". To make room for those Jewish people, the native population was evicted from their homes and chased out of the towns they lived in. Its important to note that in 1936, in the middle of all of this, the native population TRIED to fight back and protest this displacement - they revolted against the British (the migration was sanctioned by Britain and Britain had declared Palestine its mandate), and got crushed. 

 

In this time period, Jewish terrorist organizations, including Irgun, use violence including bombing arab villages and towns to encourage the still majority Arab population to flee key areas including Jerusalem. See Deir Yassin Massacre as an example. Jewish terrorist organizations also target the British, who at this point are growing concerned about just how many european and north american jewish people are colonizing Palestine, and try to limit the migration numbers. The most notable event here is the bombing of the King David Hotel by Irgun. 

 

Now after ALL of this - the UN in 1947 recommends a partition plan, an Arab state and a separate Jewish state, meaning that people who were forced to leave their homes would never be able to return. In 1948, the still minority Jewish population declares an Independent jewish state.

 

Over the span of 30 years, the native Palestinian population was effectively removed from their homes, and conquered by military force. 

 

Fast forward to today: the 2 million people in Gaza are the children and grandchildren of the people cleansed from their towns to make way for European and North American Jewish migrants. Israel removed its illegal settlements from Gaza, but did put up walls and assumed complete control over the import of goods into Gaza, including food, water, medical supplies, building materials, etc. These people are effectively prisoners, with no ability to leave. 

 

What these people want - is to go home to the towns they came from. Israel cannot let that happen, because if they do, that means welcoming back so many Arabs that Israel is no longer majority Jewish. 

 

There is literally no debate - this WAS settler colonialism. Anyone who says otherwise is lying or ignorant. The territory now known as Israel was conquered by European and North American born people between the 1920s and 1930s, exercising their "birthright" to land that was promised to them by God. They needed to remove the local native population which they did.

 

What we are dealing with today in Gaza and the West Bank IS that native population that was removed.

 

THAT is where we need to start, if you're truly going to understand why terrorism exists in Palestine. 

 

 

 

 

 

Several posters in here want to zero in on the historical context of this issue - which is fine. But you should also include that this happened all over the Mediterranean (and other parts of the world) during that era.   Take modern day Turkey as an example. The country is basically a product of ethnic cleansing, forced population exchanges, and treaties drawn by third parties which arbitrarily drew boundaries depending on who the victor was in various conflicts. The whole coast (starting from the black sea) was populated by Christian Greek speakers, the eastern third of the country was heavily populated by Armenians and Kurds.  Should all the land be handed back?  These people lived there for centuries and were displaced by populations that were not even in the region till relatively recently.    Not to pick on Turkey , you can look at Greece too.  Large slavic population in the north, Muslims in places like Crete, and Today's capital Athens was largely Albanian (or Arvanite).  These populations were forcibly expelled to create relatively homogenous populations.    We can go into the Balkans too - its a quagmire of wars, displaced populations, and nation building.  There were large Jewish populations living everywhere from North Africa to Baghdad that were forcibly displaced - populations that lived in these lands for centuries...kicked out.  Many of them ended up in what is Israel.  Should we look at the Kurds? their land split between multiple countries who dont treat them very nicely.  Yeah, context.

Israel has created the conditions for extremists to flourish - I agree.  They have also violated many Security council resolutions.  So how do we solve the problem going forward because neither population is going anywhere. Its not helpful trying to delegitimize one population by stating they are not original inhabitants -if thats the case then we should reverse multiple international boundaries and or hand a bunch of land back all over the region including land all over the Arab world that was populated by Jews who were forced out. 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Darius

[eeeeeeeeergh]

21 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

 

What do you think of this proposal.

 

The PLO (now known as Fatah) would take this in a heartbeat, Netanyahu has made it clear, even when there were no rocket attacks that settlement activity would continue, so Israel’s not going for that deal. 
 

you have to remember too that the current government of Israel got angry at any countries that considered recognizing Palestine as a state, the sheer fucking irony

 

https://amp.france24.com/en/20160201-israels-netanyahu-slams-france-threat-recognise-palestine

 

and condemned the UN for recognizing Palestine https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2012/nov/29/united-nations-vote-palestine-state

[eeeeeeeeergh]

2 minutes ago, Darius said:

 

Several posters in here want to zero in on the historical context of this issue - which is fine. But you should also include that this happened all over the Mediterranean (and other parts of the world) during that era.   Take modern day Turkey as an example. The country is basically a product of ethnic cleansing, forced population exchanges, and treaties drawn by third parties which arbitrarily drew boundaries depending on who the victor was in various conflicts. The whole coast (starting from the black sea) was populated by Christian Greek speakers, the eastern third of the country was heavily populated by Armenians and Kurds.  Should all the land be handed back?  These people lived there for centuries and were displaced by populations that were not even in the region till relatively recently.    Not to pick on Turkey , you can look at Greece too.  Large slavic population in the north, muslims in places like Crete, and Today's capital Athens was largely Albanian (or Arvanite).  These populations were forcibly expelled to create relatively homogenous populations.    We can go into the Balkans too - its a quagmire of wars, displaced populations, and nation building.  There were large Jewish populations living everywhere from North Africa to Baghdad that were forcibly displaced - populations that lived in these lands for centuries...kicked out.  Many of them ended up in what is Israel.  Should we look at the Kurds? their land split between multiple countries who dont treat them very nicely.  Yeah, context.

Israel has created the conditions for extremists to flourish - I agree.  They have also violated many Security council resolutions.  So how do we solve the problem going forward because neither population is going anywhere. Its not helpful trying to delegitimize one population by stating they are not original inhabitants -if thats the case then we should reverse multiple international boundaries and or hand a bunch of land back all over the region including land all over the Arab world that was populated by Jews who were forced out. 

 

 

 

 

the Jewish people are hands down the most persecuted group in history, we agree completely. 
 

no group had endured atrocities like they have. 
 

to be extremely clear: I have NO objection to Jewish people having a state. In fact I think it’s a pretty fucking good considering how the world has treated them for the past 2000 years. 
 

what I object to is stealing other peoples homes and then enforcing apartheid on the prisoners and refugees that they created when they conquered other peoples land. 
 

 

[Elias Pettersson]

36 minutes ago, eeeeeeeeergh said:

Roman theres a difference between a stone and a molotov cocktail

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faris_Odeh

 

shot in the neck throwing a STONE not a molotov cocktail at a tank

 

14 years old

We were referring to this…

 

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/08/28/west-bank-spike-israeli-killings-palestinian-children

 

In the other cases investigated, the security forces killed boys after they had joined other youths confronting Israeli forces with stones, Molotov cocktails, or fireworks.

[eeeeeeeeergh]

5 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

We were referring to this…

 

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/08/28/west-bank-spike-israeli-killings-palestinian-children

 

In the other cases investigated, the security forces killed boys after they had joined other youths confronting Israeli forces with stones, Molotov cocktails, or fireworks.

If a child is throwing a Molotov cocktail you can’t blame the soldier

 

 

but all too often it’s been children throwing stones, or just sitting in their house, or lying in a hospital bed- and the house, or school, or hospital gets vaporized in an Israeli air strike because they claim a Hamas operative was inside.
 

up until 2002, it was officially IDF policy to use Palestinians as human shields (can look this up, Israel doesn’t deny this).
 

Israel puts on the thinnest possible veneer of “care” for civilian lives, just enough to give its Ally countries political cover. But not enough to actually protect civilians from its wrath.
 

Israel uses the same justification for vaporizing a school, mosque, or hospital, as the US did when Napalming villages. “There are some viet cong there living among them”  

[UnkNuk]

How are Israel soldiers going to tell the difference between a Hamas-Palestinian and an ordinary-Palestinian?