Hamas attacking Israel

[Optimist Prime]

Israeli army Spokesman: Since ceasefire ended on Dec. 1st, over 2,000 Hamas militants killed by Israeli army, raising total estimates to 9,000, including militants who infiltrated into Israel on and after October 7th

[Optimist Prime]

40 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

You view history differently from me, that's fair enough.

You must remember, these people, the representatives from our societies, are acting in our names. 

 

And I trust you brother, I don't believe you would knowingly lie.

I have tried to research that figure of 80 percent Hamas in the UNRWA, I can't find anything.

 

Also @Taxi claimed there were actual terrorist fighters in not just that organisation, but one or two others, I have asked him for a source and he has not been able to provide one.

I am not gonna scroll back but I provided links to that number from valid sources sometime in October, sorry just not into 'time wasting' this time of year. 

The trick of actual research, as I was trained to do at great expense to the country, is to find relavent reports and actually read them, not just look for tweets and cliffs notes on things. I recall I had delved into actual reports on UNRWA and found what was presented in them by experts on the situation, which admittedly I am not, but I have a good deal of experience with it a few decades ago. Shrug. Is what it is. Hamas literally won the contract to provide directly 3000 of the 5000 jobs in UNRWA, and the remainder were highly infiltrated already at that point: leading to the "up to 80%" number. Skeptics who were also considered experts in the report, from memory, tagged it at 30%. So If you wish you can think of it as between 1 in three and 8 in ten of UNRWA personal are Hamas. 

 

Again from memory, no time to look stuff up these days. Cheers.

 

EDit to add: if you ever wonder how say, an ambulance near al shifa hospital was full of rockets being taken to a tall building for Hamas to fire at Tel Aviv and Israel blew up that ambulance, which made a HUGE explosion on account of being full of rockets: that would be because the UNRWA men using said ambulance were also Hamas men at the same time. Like I said, it is what it is, take it and go or don't believe it. We aren't solving world peace here anyway.

[RomanPer]

2 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

The UN is a toothless tiger however if our species survives, these votes and declarations will illustrate to future generations, who was on the right side of history.

 

 

In your original post you stated, amongst other things, the Palestinians had to recognise the state of Israel, they did that under Arafat. 

It was the fact the Isreal never lived up to their part of the bargain that Palestinians gave up on that regime and voted in Hamas, who has had support from Netanyahu.   

 

Here is an opinion piece by the Isreali British historian Avi Shlaim, it also contains facts about how Isreal reneged on their obligations.

How Isreal is to blame for the failure of the Oslo peace accords.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/12/oslo-israel-reneged-colonial-palestine

 

I have tried to focus on referencing Isreal reports and opinions.

Why do so many Isrealis themselves criticise Isreals actions in regards to the peace process ?

 

Sorry, brother, but there are quite a few of incorrect statements in your post. There was significant amount of time between the Oslo accords and Netanyahu as PM and during all that time there were almost non stop terrorist attacks in Israel with Arafat at the helm of the PA. These terrorist attacks were one of the reasons for the right wing winning the elections. So, saying that after Arafat “recognized” Israel right to exist it was all on Israel is disingenuous to say the least.

 

Gazans voted in Hamas not because of “Israel not living up to their part of the bargain” but because of highest levels of corruption within PA.

 

I’ll stop at that.

[Ilunga]

16 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

I am not gonna scroll back but I provided links to that number from valid sources sometime in October, sorry just not into 'time wasting' this time of year. 

The trick of actual research, as I was trained to do at great expense to the country, is to find relavent reports and actually read them, not just look for tweets and cliffs notes on things. I recall I had delved into actual reports on UNRWA and found what was presented in them by experts on the situation, which admittedly I am not, but I have a good deal of experience with it a few decades ago. Shrug. Is what it is. Hamas literally won the contract to provide directly 3000 of the 5000 jobs in UNRWA, and the remainder were highly infiltrated already at that point: leading to the "up to 80%" number. Skeptics who were also considered experts in the report, from memory, tagged it at 30%. So If you wish you can think of it as between 1 in three and 8 in ten of UNRWA personal are Hamas. 

 

Again from memory, no time to look stuff up these days. Cheers.

 

EDit to add: if you ever wonder how say, an ambulance near al shifa hospital was full of rockets being taken to a tall building for Hamas to fire at Tel Aviv and Israel blew up that ambulance, which made a HUGE explosion on account of being full of rockets: that would be because the UNRWA men using said ambulance were also Hamas men at the same time. Like I said, it is what it is, take it and go or don't believe it. We aren't solving world peace here anyway.

 

Like a stated, I believe you are a person of the highest integrity, I believe you, I just can't find these sources

 

As for Hamas " fighter's" I believe that description fits the guys doing the actual fighting, committing acts of terrorism.

There is a difference between supporting an organisation that kills people and actually committing acts of terror. 

 

Was that " ambulance" being driven by members of those international organisations, that @Taxi claimed had actual terrorist fighters in their ranks.

Big claims like this require big evidence to back them up. 

 

And why does no one address the my claims, with overwhelming evidence provided, that it is Isreal that has failed to live up to, and sabotaged the Oslo peace accords ?

And the fact that many of the Isreali settlements on the west bank are illegal, and violate international law ?

 

Do we only obey laws when it suits us ?

 

 

 

[Optimist Prime]

12 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Like a stated, I believe you are a person of the highest integrity, I believe you, I just can't find these sources

 

As for Hamas " fighter's" I believe that description fits the guys doing the actual fighting, committing acts of terrorism.

There is a difference between supporting an organisation that kills people and actually committing acts of terror. 

 

Was that " ambulance" being driven by members of those international organisations, that @Taxi claimed had actual terrorist fighters in their ranks.

Big claims like this require big evidence to back them up. 

 

And why does no one address the my claims, with overwhelming evidence provided, that it is Isreal that has failed to live up to, and sabotaged the Oslo peace accords ?

And the fact that many of the Isreali settlements on the west bank are illegal, and violate international law ?

 

Do we only obey laws when it suits us ?

 

 

 

I think the west bank settler situation is difficult and not exactly as you may perceive it, but for what it is worth, I think it should stop immediately and we will see what comes of things after the work of dismantling Hamas ability to wage terror is complete. 

[Yoshiyoshi]

3 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Like a stated, I believe you are a person of the highest integrity, I believe you, I just can't find these sources

 

As for Hamas " fighter's" I believe that description fits the guys doing the actual fighting, committing acts of terrorism.

There is a difference between supporting an organisation that kills people and actually committing acts of terror. 

 

Was that " ambulance" being driven by members of those international organisations, that @Taxi claimed had actual terrorist fighters in their ranks.

Big claims like this require big evidence to back them up. 

 

And why does no one address the my claims, with overwhelming evidence provided, that it is Isreal that has failed to live up to, and sabotaged the Oslo peace accords ?

And the fact that many of the Isreali settlements on the west bank are illegal, and violate international law ?

 

Do we only obey laws when it suits us ?

 

 

 

I believe RomanP posted a video yesterday to counter this and you said you stopped listening and called it biased. Was gonna say more but out of time so posted!

[Ilunga]

17 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

Sorry, brother, but there are quite a few of incorrect statements in your post. There was significant amount of time between the Oslo accords and Netanyahu as PM and during all that time there were almost non stop terrorist attacks in Israel with Arafat at the helm of the PA. These terrorist attacks were one of the reasons for the right wing winning the elections. So, saying that after Arafat “recognized” Israel right to exist it was all on Israel is disingenuous to say the least.

 

Gazans voted in Hamas not because of “Israel not living up to their part of the bargain” but because of highest levels of corruption within PA.

 

I’ll stop at that.

 

There was only 3 years between the Oslo accords and Netanyahu's first term, elected by the narrowest of margins in 1996.

 

Remember he has bragged about wanting to always stop the formation of a independent Palestinian state.

 

There were acts of violence on both sides, the Israelis " accidentally" bombed a UN compound.

 

Arafat actually tried to bring to justice the Palestinian perpetrators. 

 

Who actually killed the Isreali PM, Yitzhak Rabin, a peacemaker, a extreme Isreali right wing terrorist. 

 

From frontline, one of the most respected investigative programs on this planet.

 

A totally unbiased timeline of the events 

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/oslo/etc/cron.html

 

As you can see, it was the actions of Isrealis, illegal settlements, and provocative actions by Isreali PM's, including Netanyahu, that  provoked the violent, and I condemn them, attacks by Palestinians.

 

I totally condemn the acts of violence by the Palestinians and Isrealis.

Again Arafat tried to bring the perpetrators to justice. 

 

 

Why not just the international community, but many Isrealis/ Jews  themselves criticise Isreal for not living up to their part of the deal regarding the Oslo accords ? 

 

As I stated in reply to PO, if one source tells you something you take it at face value, when many sources tell you the same thing that makes it credible. 

 

I have, and will continue to condemn the violent/ terrorist acts by the Palestinians.

Why can't you do the same in regards to similar actions by the Isrealis ?

[Ilunga]

19 minutes ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

I believe RomanP posted a video yesterday to counter this and you said you stopped listening and called it biased. Was gonna say more but out of time so posted!

 

Have you watched it ?

 

As I stated I stopped when the host referenced the claim about the Grand Mufti suggesting to Hitler the idea of a " final solution "

I have posted a link that debunks that entirely.

Even before that, I could see the bias. 

 

I will ask you the same question I asked PO

 

The international community states the west bank settlements violate international law.

 

Here again is an Isreali human rights organisation that details why Isreal is violating international law regarding the west bank settlements

 

http://www.btselem.org/publications/summaries/200205_land_grab

 

Again, how many times do I have to post this for people to accept the truth  ?

 

Do we only obey laws when it suits us ?

[Super19]

5 hours ago, Taxi said:

 

There are videos of Hamas gunmen bringing hostages into the hospital at gunpoint. That alone gives Israel the right to enter. They found tunnels underneath the hospital being used by Hamas. It does not matter if those tunnels were directly connected to Hamas' wider network of tunnels.

Hospitals have special protection even under war.

 

Yeah and the IDF only got those videos AFTER they sieged and effed up the hospitals functions? So did they "enter" the hospital on the hunch? They were wrong about the tunnels and failed to provide proof that al-Shifa was a Hamas command centre. There weren't even any hostages kept there anyway. It's impossible for Hamas to have used the hospital to transport them to the real Hamas tunnels because there's no connection. Is it unreasonable to think the hostages went to the best hospital in Gaza to get their injuries treated? The hostages meant everything to Hamas plans for the prisoner swap. IIRC the hostages in the video were the Thai ones that got returned safely.

 

Israel claimed they had CONCRETE evidence. They showed some a few weeks ago. It wasn't good enough for me. But its not good enough for the Post either, now that means something. 

[Bob Long]

3 hours ago, Gurn said:

Hamas takes hostages

Israel takes prisoners

 

the difference a word makes. Yet all those people are being held against their will. So what is the difference, really?

 

 

 

Your chances of ending up dead for starters.

[Ilunga]

39 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

I think the west bank settler situation is difficult and not exactly as you may perceive it, but for what it is worth, I think it should stop immediately and we will see what comes of things after the work of dismantling Hamas ability to wage terror is complete. 

 

I can only go on the information that is provided, which I have provided to you.

 

An unbiased person who cares about Justice for everyone on this planet, Israelis and Palestinians included can see what is happening.

 

That video of Romans, 

" Oh we just want to be here " 

Well so did the Palestinians who were already living there before their land was taken from them.

 

Heres a couple of other statements I copied down,

 

Paraphrasing 

" The world's a hostile place, so why not move here " 

 

That's an insult to both our countries.

As I have pointed out, AIJAC, a Jewish lobby group is a very powerful, influential voice in our country. 

 

Here's another claim from that video 

 

 "The world shut it's doors to the Jews "

 

There is nearly as many Jews living in the US as there are in Isreal.

 

Canada has 393,000

The UK 292,000

Australia 118,000

 

Remember there are only just under 7 million living in Isreal. 

 

For a group of people that make up just .2 percent of the worlds 8.2 billion population they have a big voice in world affairs.

 

I call out injustice when I see it, my own country, it's treatment of our indigenous people, 1.2 million children living in poverty, over 122,000 people on any given night are homeless. 

The underlying racism that has always existed in our society.

 

Palestinian injustices,  not just the October 7th attacks but their terror actions in the last nearly 2 decades.

The terrorist actions of the PLO before that.

I condemn all of this.

 

How fucken hard is it to call out the Injustices perpetrated by the Isrealis ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Yoshiyoshi]

2 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Have you watched it ?

 

As I stated I stopped when the host referenced the claim about the Grand Mufti suggesting to Hitler the idea of a " final solution "

I have posted a link that debunks that entirely.

Even before that, I could see the bias. 

 

I will ask you the same question I asked PO

 

The international community states the west bank settlements violate international law.

 

Here again is an Isreali human rights organisation that details why Isreal is violating international law regarding the west bank settlements

 

http://www.btselem.org/publications/summaries/200205_land_grab

 

Again, how many times do I have to post this for people to accept the truth  ?

 

Do we only obey laws when it suits us ?

Well if you had watched the whole thing it would have challenged the statement that the settlements were illegal under international law and said something about the interpretation being used to call them illegal was an interpretation only used on Israel. But i dont remember the details so if you want more info on it you can check the movie out.

 

As to the statements about international law and the international community. I will consider respecting things they say when the rules are applied consistently and to everyone and not only when it is convenient. I dont want to hear anything about human rights from people who consistently violate said human rights. Any nation that discriminates against women and LBGT+ I dont respect the opinions of so if they are involved in the voting, the vote means nothing to me.

 

Some laws are always obeyed, some are only obeyed when it suits us. I for one will ignore traffic laws in a deserted intersection. Some laws are also ignored because it is easier than removing said law from the books. Im sure you can find examples of such if you want to. So to answer the question, yes we do only obey laws when it suits us. Most of the human race is that way.

 

 

[Optimist Prime]

18 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

I can only go on the information that is provided, which I have provided to you.

 

An unbiased person who cares about Justice for everyone on this planet, Israelis and Palestinians included can see what is happening.

 

That video of Romans, 

" Oh we just want to be here " 

Well so did the Palestinians who were already living there before their land was taken from them.

 

Heres a couple of other statements I copied down,

 

Paraphrasing 

" The world's a hostile place, so why not move here " 

 

That's an insult to both our countries.

As I have pointed out, AIJAC, a Jewish lobby group is a very powerful, influential voice in our country. 

 

Here's another claim from that video 

 

 "The world shut it's doors to the Jews "

 

There is nearly as many Jews living in the US as there are in Isreal.

 

Canada has 393,000

The UK 292,000

Australia 118,000

 

Remember there are only just under 7 million living in Isreal. 

 

For a group of people that make up just .2 percent of the worlds 8.2 billion population they have a big voice in world affairs.

 

I call out injustice when I see it, my own country, it's treatment of our indigenous people, 1.2 million children living in poverty, over 122,000 people on any given night are homeless. 

The underlying racism that has always existed in our society.

 

Palestinian injustices,  not just the October 7th attacks but their terror actions in the last nearly 2 decades.

The terrorist actions of the PLO before that.

I condemn all of this.

 

How fucken hard is it to call out the Injustices perpetrated by the Isrealis ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

You lost me when you started ranting about Jews of the world having an outsized voice bro. sorry can't follow you down that hole. 

It is irrelevant to the events that were started on Oct 7th with a brutal attack on Israel from Gaza. There was a Palestinian in downtown Vancouver threatening to put people six feet under at a protest someone linked here:....irrelevant to the situation going on right now over in the middle east just like the number of jews in Canada or Australia is entirely irrelevant to it. 

[Optimist Prime]

here are some Corgi's to try to help everyone have a good night:

 

[Ilunga]

3 minutes ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

Well if you had watched the whole thing it would have challenged the statement that the settlements were illegal under international law and said something about the interpretation being used to call them illegal was an interpretation only used on Israel. But i dont remember the details so if you want more info on it you can check the movie out.

 

As to the statements about international law and the international community. I will consider respecting things they say when the rules are applied consistently and to everyone and not only when it is convenient. I dont want to hear anything about human rights from people who consistently violate said human rights. Any nation that discriminates against women and LBGT+ I dont respect the opinions of so if they are involved in the voting, the vote means nothing to me.

 

Some laws are always obeyed, some are only obeyed when it suits us. I for one will ignore traffic laws in a deserted intersection. Some laws are also ignored because it is easier than removing said law from the books. Im sure you can find examples of such if you want to. So to answer the question, yes we do only obey laws when it suits us. Most of the human race is that way.

 

 

 

Of course that video would state that, it was so biased on the Isreali side.

 

How come an Isreali human rights organisation, B'tselem, states the settlements violate international law ? 

Are they wrong ?

All these international human rights bodies are they wrong ?

When most people agree on something and it's pretty obvious to an unbiased person,well a person whose bias is for justice, that taking land from people who are already living there is wrong.

 

As for the Palestinians, they are a non member observer state of the UN, so what votes are you talking about ? 

 

Personally I follow all the road laws.

If there is a stop sign, I stop.

If you don't obey the road laws you really don't deserve the right to drive on public roads. 

 

Funny how people can justify things that they wouldn't want happening to them, like having their land/ home stolen from them.

[Yoshiyoshi]

1 minute ago, Ilunga said:

 

I can only go on the information that is provided, which I have provided to you.

 

An unbiased person who cares about Justice for everyone on this planet, Israelis and Palestinians included can see what is happening.

 

That video of Romans, 

" Oh we just want to be here " 

Well so did the Palestinians who were already living there before their land was taken from them.

 

Heres a couple of other statements I copied down,

 

Paraphrasing 

" The world's a hostile place, so why not move here " 

 

That's an insult to both our countries.

As I have pointed out, AIJAC, a Jewish lobby group is a very powerful, influential voice in our country. 

 

Here's another claim from that video 

 

 "The world shut it's doors to the Jews "

 

There is nearly as many Jews living in the US as there are in Isreal.

 

Canada has 393,000

The UK 292,000

Australia 118,000

 

Remember there are only just under 7 million living in Isreal. 

 

For a group of people that make up just .2 percent of the worlds 8.2 billion population they have a big voice in world affairs.

 

I call out injustice when I see it, my own country, it's treatment of our indigenous people, 1.2 million children living in poverty, over 122,000 people on any given night are homeless. 

The underlying racism that has always existed in our society.

 

Palestinian injustices,  not just the October 7th attacks but their terror actions in the last nearly 2 decades.

The terrorist actions of the PLO before that.

I condemn all of this.

 

How fucken hard is it to call out the Injustices perpetrated by the Isrealis ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

So you just ignore that the jewish population of almost every arab nation has basically gone extinct in the past century? You also ignore that it was jewish land before it was Palestinian? Where is your justice for the jewish population?

[Optimist Prime]

Just now, Yoshiyoshi said:

So you just ignore that the jewish population of almost every arab nation has basically gone extinct in the past century? You also ignore that it was jewish land before it was Palestinian? Where is your justice for the jewish population?

it was never palestinian, just a point of order.

[Ilunga]

5 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

You lost me when you started ranting about jews of the world having an outsized voice bro. sorry can't follow you down that hole. 

 

Now you are twisting my words, I didn't say an " outsized voice ", I said a powerful voice.

And when I express an opinion it is ranting ?

 

Here's the definition of ranting for you 

 

" Lengthy angry and impassioned speech.

 

Here is what I stated , 

 

For a group of people that make up just .2 percent of the worlds population, they have a big voice in world affairs.

 

Is this lengthy ? 

Is this angry ?

Is this impassioned ?

 No it is not.

 

 

 

 

I have already provided evidence of this in my own society.

 

Like complaining about the word Palestine in a crossword puzzle and forcing an apology amongst more important things. 

 

Like the fact that even though Isreal is overwhelmingly more Powerful than Hamas, the US rushed 2 carrier groups to the region in a matter of days.

Anyone who has any knowledge of the American political system knows that Isreal is a powerful voice in American political affairs.

[Yoshiyoshi]

1 minute ago, Ilunga said:

 

Of course that video would state that, it was so biased on the Isreali side.

 

How come an Isreali human rights organisation, B'tselem, states the settlements violate international law ? 

Are they wrong ?

All these international human rights bodies are they wrong ?

When most people agree on something and it's pretty obvious to an unbiased person,well a person whose bias is for justice, that taking land from people who are already living there is wrong.

 

As for the Palestinians, they are a non member observer state of the UN, so what votes are you talking about ? 

 

Personally I follow all the road laws.

If there is a stop sign, I stop.

If you don't obey the road laws you really don't deserve the right to drive on public roads. 

 

Funny how people can justify things that they wouldn't want happening to them, like having their land/ home stolen from them.

Actually my family did have land taken from them by the government to build a road, eminent domain i think its called? Wonder how much that land would have been worth today. But if you want to get more support for your anti israeli settlement stance, start by pointing out specific instances. When you lump them all together, for me at least, you wont get any support for your position because you are saying that no jewish person has the right to live in the west bank. Which to me is racist. If you can point out a specific instance of Israeli settlers stealing land, i would condemn that specific action. But you wont get a blanket support from me on that.

 

So at midnight in a deserted intersection with no traffic you think its wrong to ignore the light and should wait the 5 min for it to change? Im sorry but if you do, then our view of right and wrong are completely incompatible. Laws exist for a reason, and that reason is not to be blindly followed. It is to manage interactions between people. But laws are imperfect and part of life is figuring out when laws and rules should be followed and when they should not. Laws and rules also have tiers of importance as well as interactions with eachother that the order of priority has to be sorted out for which one matters more.

 

As to votes, i didnt mention Palestine at all. Ok im tired so someone else can take over the discussion

[Optimist Prime]

41 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Now you are twisting my words, I didn't say an " outsized voice ", I said a powerful voice.

And when I express an opinion it is ranting ?

 

Here's the definition of ranting for you 

 

" Lengthy angry and impassioned speech.

 

Here is what I stated , 

 

For a group of people that make up just .2 percent of the worlds population, they have a big voice in world affairs.

 

Is this lengthy ? 

Is this angry ?

Is this impassioned ?

 No it is not.

 

 

 

 

I have already provided evidence of this in my own society.

 

Like complaining about the word Palestine in a crossword puzzle and forcing an apology amongst more important things. 

 

Like the fact that even though Isreal is overwhelmingly more Powerful than Hamas, the US rushed 2 carrier groups to the region in a matter of days.

Anyone who has any knowledge of the American political system knows that Isreal is a powerful voice in American political affairs.

Sorry to say 'ranting'. It was completely irrelevant however and made me question your reason for including it on otherwise well spoken points from you. Talking about jews in the world, imo, is beneath you and what I have come to expect from you. Again sorry to say ranting, that wasn't spot on. '

 

edit: i will totally credit you for pointing out my rants from previous posts: i agree 100%. It isn't always easy to see them until i read back later. hehehe. I agree with you on it. 

[Optimist Prime]

5 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

Like the fact that even though Isreal is overwhelmingly more Powerful than Hamas, the US rushed 2 carrier groups to the region in a matter of days.

Anyone who has any knowledge of the American political system knows that Isreal is a powerful voice in American political affairs.

You are aware of the nation of Iran right? THAT is why the US rushed a carrier group to the region to join one already there, but redeployed nearer to the situation. Those groups are assuring that the situation didn't become what has occurred so often in the past: many arab nations trying to wipe Israel off the map. Sorry but you must be impassioned today as you are veering quickly away from sound judgement and into a bit of an anti western/first world stance. I can't follow there brother, best of luck from here on out. 

 

i think I need a break from this, it is getting annoying again. 

[Ilunga]

12 minutes ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

So you just ignore that the jewish population of almost every arab nation has basically gone extinct in the past century? You also ignore that it was jewish land before it was Palestinian? Where is your justice for the jewish population?

 

I have ignored nothing.

Have those Arab countries killed or forcibly expelled the Jews ?

Killed them ?

What about the Jewish population of Iran ?

Second largest in the middle east after Isreal.

 

Does any of this give Isrealis the right to keep taking land from Palestinians in Palestine who were already living there ?

By your logic all the Palestinians should fuck off to somewhere else, because Jewish people lived there 2000 years ago before they left.

 

I get it, you wouldn't want this to happen to you but you don't care when it happens to others. 

 

 

[Ilunga]

26 minutes ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

Actually my family did have land taken from them by the government to build a road, eminent domain i think its called? Wonder how much that land would have been worth today. But if you want to get more support for your anti israeli settlement stance, start by pointing out specific instances. When you lump them all together, for me at least, you wont get any support for your position because you are saying that no jewish person has the right to live in the west bank. Which to me is racist. If you can point out a specific instance of Israeli settlers stealing land, i would condemn that specific action. But you wont get a blanket support from me on that.

 

So at midnight in a deserted intersection with no traffic you think its wrong to ignore the light and should wait the 5 min for it to change? Im sorry but if you do, then our view of right and wrong are completely incompatible. Laws exist for a reason, and that reason is not to be blindly followed. It is to manage interactions between people. But laws are imperfect and part of life is figuring out when laws and rules should be followed and when they should not. Laws and rules also have tiers of importance as well as interactions with eachother that the order of priority has to be sorted out for which one matters more.

 

As to votes, i didnt mention Palestine at all. Ok im tired so someone else can take over the discussion

 

I am sorry to hear you had land taken from you without being properly compensated

 

 

This is a classic Aussie movie about something similar, they didn't want compensation

 

As I have quoted one my heroes Douglas Bader, before, 

Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men.

However I obey the road laws, I sit at a red light, even if there is no traffic.

Did it the other night,one of the few nights I drove into Melbourne to see my friends daughter won an Australasian boxing title. 

 

As I have stated, I will take the word of the international community, International human rights bodies, including an Isreali one.

In other words, an overwhelming opinion by the world community.

 

 

[Ilunga]

30 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

You are aware of the nation of Iran right? THAT is why the US rushed a carrier group to the region to join one already there, but redeployed nearer to the situation. Those groups are assuring that the situation didn't become what has occurred so often in the past: many arab nations trying to wipe Israel off the map. Sorry but you must be impassioned today as you are veering quickly away from sound judgement and into a bit of an anti western/first world stance. I can't follow there brother, best of luck from here on out. 

 

i think I need a break from this, it is getting annoying again. 

 

 

All those Arab nations that people have been pointing out, have been making peace with Isreal ?

I have been anti western since Vietnam.

I have already posted evidence that up until the 80's, the US was the dominant sponsor of international terrorism.

Iraq, Afghanistan, the war crimes of our SAS in Afghanistan.

Yours to a lesser extent in Somalia.

 

I am aware that Iran has never invaded any country in my lifetime, unlike the US who has illegally invaded and " intervened " in quite a few countries in my lifetime. 

 

My stance is against injustice, especially those that claim to be states that practice justice, they are worse than dictatorships that dont pretend to practice justice.

 

Why do you get annoyed ? it's only a discussion.

I am not annoyed with anyone who disagrees with me. 

 

As always I wish the best for not just you and yours, but everyone on this board, shit, on this planet.

[Ilunga]

46 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

Sorry to say 'ranting'. It was completely irrelevant however and made me question your reason for including it on otherwise well spoken points from you. Talking about jews in the world, imo, is beneath you and what I have come to expect from you. Again sorry to say ranting, that wasn't spot on. 

 

Why ? 

This topic is about Jews/ Palestinians.

The Palestinians don't have much of a voice, in the circles of power.

 

If this was a thread about Aussies and someone else in a conflict, I would bring up our voice in world affairs.

I have actually expressed my shame about our " voice " at the UN. 

 

Without fear or favour my friend.

All I give a fuck about is justice !