Hamas attacking Israel

[Optimist Prime]

13 hours ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

 When you lump them all together, for me at least, you wont get any support for your position because you are saying that no jewish person has the right to live in the west bank. Which to me is racist. If you can point out a specific instance of Israeli settlers stealing land, i would condemn that specific action. But you wont get a blanket support from me on that.

This is where I am at too, but I am also ready for a break from this thread so while I may be around a bit, i don't plan on it until at least the new year. knowing me though, see ya tomorrow. 

 

also, just a thought: is Israel practicing apartheid OR are there no valid reasons for jews to live in the west bank and gaza? Seems that the apartheid might be being pushed from the muslims rather than the other way around...what a weird world. 

[Optimist Prime]

37 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

Why do you get annoyed ? it's only a discussion.

I am not annoyed with anyone who disagrees with me. 

Nah dud3, not you or any one person, I am annoyed with the entire thing, aren't we all? But for that reason and for a bit of a mental health break, I want to try to avoid these non hockey forums. It isn't an overall good space, for me. 

 

But like I said, knowing me, see ta tomorrow, with luck in a few weeks or a month. I will be in the fantasy and canucks talk forums for a while I hope.

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, Optimist Prime said:

Nah dud3, not you or any one person, I am annoyed with the entire thing, aren't we all? But for that reason and for a bit of a mental health break, I want to try to avoid these non hockey forums. It isn't an overall good space, for me. 

 

But like I said, knowing me, see ta tomorrow, with luck in a few weeks or a month. I will be in the fantasy and canucks talk forums for a while I hope.

 

I get where you are coming from.

 

The " real world " is a far shittier place for me lately, I am going through the worst time of my life, I have never felt pain like this before in my life. 

 

This is an escape for me and I admit that my passionate nature is, well somewhat more intense than usual.

We are talking about the guy that was called intense Dave. 

 

Anyway I figure I am the sort of guy you want in your corner, I am never gonna back down if the cause is what I deem to be right.

 

If you or Roman, or Alf or Gurn, Sharpie etc were in the shit I would have your backs whatever the cost. 

This is what I taught my son, you sometimes have to fight for what you believe is right.

Defending those you love and respect is at the top of the tree.

 

[Super19]

 

[RomanPer]

5 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

There was only 3 years between the Oslo accords and Netanyahu's first term, elected by the narrowest of margins in 1996.

 

Remember he has bragged about wanting to always stop the formation of a independent Palestinian state.

 

There were acts of violence on both sides, the Israelis " accidentally" bombed a UN compound.

 

Arafat actually tried to bring to justice the Palestinian perpetrators. 

 

Who actually killed the Isreali PM, Yitzhak Rabin, a peacemaker, a extreme Isreali right wing terrorist. 

 

From frontline, one of the most respected investigative programs on this planet.

 

A totally unbiased timeline of the events 

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/oslo/etc/cron.html

 

As you can see, it was the actions of Isrealis, illegal settlements, and provocative actions by Isreali PM's, including Netanyahu, that  provoked the violent, and I condemn them, attacks by Palestinians.

 

I totally condemn the acts of violence by the Palestinians and Isrealis.

Again Arafat tried to bring the perpetrators to justice. 

 

 

Why not just the international community, but many Isrealis/ Jews  themselves criticise Isreal for not living up to their part of the deal regarding the Oslo accords ? 

 

As I stated in reply to PO, if one source tells you something you take it at face value, when many sources tell you the same thing that makes it credible. 

 

I have, and will continue to condemn the violent/ terrorist acts by the Palestinians.

Why can't you do the same in regards to similar actions by the Isrealis ?

 

I don’t need an investigative journalist from the other side of the world to tell me anything about what happened in my country, especially during the years I lived there. I know that I wouldn’t be writing anything on these boards if on February 25, 1996, my 2.5 year old son didn’t wake up just before I left the house and didn’t call me to say good bye. This extra minute at home was the difference between me passing Mahane Yehuda market and being 500 meters further, waiting at a traffic light next to bus #18 that was blown up my the Palestinian terrorists. Instead i only saw the fireball in front of me and i will never forget the smell…

 

As for many sources vs few sources - I believe I said it before, but even a thousand flies will not convince me that shit is tasty.

[RomanPer]

5 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

Of course that video would state that, it was so biased on the Isreali side.

 

How come an Isreali human rights organisation, B'tselem, states the settlements violate international law ? 

Are they wrong ?

All these international human rights bodies are they wrong ?

When most people agree on something and it's pretty obvious to an unbiased person,well a person whose bias is for justice, that taking land from people who are already living there is wrong.

 

As for the Palestinians, they are a non member observer state of the UN, so what votes are you talking about ? 

 

Personally I follow all the road laws.

If there is a stop sign, I stop.

If you don't obey the road laws you really don't deserve the right to drive on public roads. 

 

Funny how people can justify things that they wouldn't want happening to them, like having their land/ home stolen from them.

 

I said it countless times in this thread - just because the source is Israeli doesn’t make it ultimate authority on the truth or facts. B’tselem is openly anti Israel in all its statements. It’s pretty irrelevant organization within Israel and if social media wasn’t such a big thing these days, no one would ever hear about them. Yet, they exist and are not persecuted for their views. Just imagine what would happen to an open pro-Israel organization (or even simply anti-Hamas organization) in Gaza City. B’tselem is essentially a secular version of Naturei Karta - another fringe group. But Hamas propaganda waves these flags left and right just to show “good Jews”. Don’t kid yourself, these “good Jews” will be killed by Hamas just the same, only the very last ones.

 

”When someone’s only goal is to kill you, it doesn’t leave a lot of space for negotiations” - Golda Meir.

[Ilunga]

14 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

I don’t need an investigative journalist from the other side of the world to tell me anything about what happened in my country, especially during the years I lived there. I know that I wouldn’t be writing anything on these boards if on February 25, 1996, my 2.5 year old son didn’t wake up just before I left the house and didn’t call me to say good bye. This extra minute at home was the difference between me passing Mahane Yehuda market and being 500 meters further, waiting at a traffic light next to bus #18 that was blown up my the Palestinian terrorists. Instead i only saw the fireball in front of me and i will never forget the smell…

 

As for many sources vs few sources - I believe I said it before, but even a thousand flies will not convince me that shit is tasty.

 

There's not much I can say to this except I am extremely happy your son called out to you and you are still here with us. 

 

 

[Ilunga]

2 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

I said it countless times in this thread - just because the source is Israeli doesn’t make it ultimate authority on the truth or facts. B’tselem is openly anti Israel in all its statements. It’s pretty irrelevant organization within Israel and if social media wasn’t such a big thing these days, no one would ever hear about them. Yet, they exist and are not persecuted for their views. Just imagine what would happen to an open pro-Israel organization (or even simply anti-Hamas organization) in Gaza City. B’tselem is essentially a secular version of Naturei Karta - another fringe group. But Hamas propaganda waves these flags left and right just to show “good Jews”. Don’t kid yourself, these “good Jews” will be killed by Hamas just the same, only the very last ones.

 

”When someone’s only goal is to kill you, it doesn’t leave a lot of space for negotiations” - Golda Meir.

 

All Isrealis/Jews that respect the fundamental rights of people everywhere have my respect.

All people no matter what place they reside in, who treat others the way they want to be treated themselves have my respect. 

 

I have always condemned Hamas in this thread and want them removed.

Do you believe that if Hamas is removed from the equation and the Palestinians are given a viable state of their own, that this conflict would end ?

I do. 

That's the problem there are extremists on both sides.

They trigger each other and continue the never ending circle of hatred.

 

Where we differ is that I condemn both the Palestinian extremists and the Isreali extremists.

I want them all removed from the equation.

 

You are entitled to your opinion of B'tselem as I am of mine. 

Again why do so many Isrealis criticise the actions of their various governments.

 

What about the Breaking the silence guys, ex IDF soldiers who actually served in the occupied territories.

Are they Bullshitting about their experiences ? 

If you believe they are, why would they do this ?

 

What I want above all is that both Isrealis and Palestinians can raise their families in a safe environment.

[Super19]

NYT reporting.

 

SkyNews also reporting:

"Israel said Gazans could flee to this neighbourhood - then it was hit.

Using on-the-ground footage, satellite imagery and mapping software, Sky News found that a building in Deir al Balah was hit on 5 December, one day after Israel told civilians they could flee to the city."

...

"In response to our findings, the UN told us it is already investigating 52 similar incidents in areas where the Israeli army told civilians it was safe to evacuate."

[RomanPer]

3 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

All Isrealis/Jews that respect the fundamental rights of people everywhere have my respect.

All people no matter what place they reside in, who treat others the way they want to be treated themselves have my respect. 

 

I have always condemned Hamas in this thread and want them removed.

Do you believe that if Hamas is removed from the equation and the Palestinians are given a viable state of their own, that this conflict would end ?

I do. 

That's the problem there are extremists on both sides.

They trigger each other and continue the never ending circle of hatred.

 

Where we differ is that I condemn both the Palestinian extremists and the Isreali extremists.

I want them all removed from the equation.

 

You are entitled to your opinion of B'tselem as I am of mine. 

Again why do so many Isrealis criticise the actions of their various governments.

 

What about the Breaking the silence guys, ex IDF soldiers who actually served in the occupied territories.

Are they Bullshitting about their experiences ? 

If you believe they are, why would they do this ?

 

What I want above all is that both Isrealis and Palestinians can raise their families in a safe environment.

 

Different people have different experiences. Vast majority of my friends who served in IDF have the same experience as I did - the orders were very clear about rules of engagement. Is it possible that there are occasional overzealous soldiers or commanders? Probably. But to take individual cases and represent them as “systematic” is absolutely wrong. But media sells controversy. That’s why we have situations where BBC comes with 2 headlines: 1) “Palestinian killed in the West Bank”; 2) “Three Israelis died in West Bank”. If you just read it like that you paint one picture. In reality, it was a terrorist attack that killed three Israelis before the terrorist was neutralized. But BBC made it sound like an innocent Palestinian was killed by bloodthirsty settlers.

 

This is why I keep you telling everyone - if you have the means, go and spend some significant time in Israel. Your eyes will open.

 

As for your question whether I believe that removing Hamas will immediately bring peace - unfortunately I’m not that optimistic. Even if Netanyahu government is defeated (which, by the way, is a highly likely scenario after the war), you still have the entire generation indoctrinated to hate and kill the Jews. Hamas used UNRWA money very efficiently in that regard. Just yesterday 2 Palestinian kids in the West Bank died. But not because they were killed by the Israelis - they were riding a motorcycle and a suicide west on one of them blew up. Some major re-education efforts are needed but I don’t see anyone strong and charismatic on the Palestinian side to lead that at the moment. Palestinians can certainly benefit from their own version of Nelson Mandela.

[Ilunga]

1 minute ago, RomanPer said:

 

Different people have different experiences. Vast majority of my friends who served in IDF have the same experience as I did - the orders were very clear about rules of engagement. Is it possible that there are occasional overzealous soldiers or commanders? Probably. But to take individual cases and represent them as “systematic” is absolutely wrong. But media sells controversy. That’s why we have situations where BBC comes with 2 headlines: 1) “Palestinian killed in the West Bank”; 2) “Three Israelis died in West Bank”. If you just read it like that you paint one picture. In reality, it was a terrorist attack that killed three Israelis before the terrorist was neutralized. But BBC made it sound like an innocent Palestinian was killed by bloodthirsty settlers.

 

This is why I keep you telling everyone - if you have the means, go and spend some significant time in Israel. Your eyes will open.

 

As for your question whether I believe that removing Hamas will immediately bring peace - unfortunately I’m not that optimistic. Even if Netanyahu government is defeated (which, by the way, is a highly likely scenario after the war), you still have the entire generation indoctrinated to hate and kill the Jews. Hamas used UNRWA money very efficiently in that regard. Just yesterday 2 Palestinian kids in the West Bank died. But not because they were killed by the Israelis - they were riding a motorcycle and a suicide west on one of them blew up. Some major re-education efforts are needed but I don’t see anyone strong and charismatic on the Palestinian side to lead that at the moment. Palestinians can certainly benefit from their own version of Nelson Mandela.

 

I would love to go to Isreal.

I have a ten year old son that I have some legal custody of, however his mother is breaking the court orders in several ways, the biggest is a form of child abuse, Parental Alienation, telling him he is not my son due to him being an IVF child.

I haven't seen him for  over 3 months.

I am faced with a damned if I do , damned if I don't do choice, however it is hard to commit to an overseas trip. 

 

I understand that that the media twists the facts to suit their particular narrative.

I have stated I don't trust any social media, and my bullshit detectors are working overtime with the conventional media.

 

 

I have already stated that the Palestinians need a Mandela or Ghandi like figure as their leader, a person who advocates for peaceful/ non violent driven change. 

As you have noted, there doesn't appear to be a person like that currently. 

 

What I do know for a fact is that in any dispute it takes comprise on both sides.

 

I have had Judges tell me this in regards to the biggest battle I have ever fought in my life.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Super19]

24 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

But media sells controversy. That’s why we have situations where BBC comes with 2 headlines: 1) “Palestinian killed in the West Bank”; 2) “Three Israelis died in West Bank”. If you just read it like that you paint one picture. In reality, it was a terrorist attack that killed three Israelis before the terrorist was neutralized. But BBC made it sound like an innocent Palestinian was killed by bloodthirsty settlers.

You can point to one example. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and not ask for the source. Your example clearly demonstrates a case of poor journalism that went against Israel. But again, that's just ONE example. We could go back and forth with headlines until one of us runs out of headlines to post just to prove a point. 

 

You can check out this article:

 

https://www.newarab.com/analysis/telling-wrong-story-palestine-western-media

"Telling the Palestinian story: An uphill battle against Western media bias

In-depth

7 min read

Abeer Al-Najjar

28 July, 2022

States of Journalism: The framing, sourcing, selection of facts, and language choices used to report on Palestine in the Western media often reveal systematic biases which distort the Palestinian struggle."

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Gnarcore]

 

[Gnarcore]

Just now, Gnarcore said:

 

Like every conflict you have pieces of shit on every side. Hopefully regardless of side it is a very small minority.  

[RomanPer]

13 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

I have ignored nothing.

Have those Arab countries killed or forcibly expelled the Jews ?

Killed them ?

What about the Jewish population of Iran ?

Second largest in the middle east after Isreal.

 

Does any of this give Isrealis the right to keep taking land from Palestinians in Palestine who were already living there ?

By your logic all the Palestinians should fuck off to somewhere else, because Jewish people lived there 2000 years ago before they left.

 

I get it, you wouldn't want this to happen to you but you don't care when it happens to others. 

 

 

Bro, really? “Have those Arab countries killed or forcibly expelled the Jews ?”

 

Yes and yes. Just read this little history of Jews in the Arab world. And waving a flag of “largest Jewish population in Iran” is laughable - from 150,000 less than 100 years ago to peanuts that it’s today is not really something for the Muslim countries to be proud of

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world

[Sharpshooter]

 

[Taxi]

15 hours ago, Super19 said:

Hospitals have special protection even under war.

 

Yeah and the IDF only got those videos AFTER they sieged and effed up the hospitals functions? So did they "enter" the hospital on the hunch? They were wrong about the tunnels and failed to provide proof that al-Shifa was a Hamas command centre. There weren't even any hostages kept there anyway. It's impossible for Hamas to have used the hospital to transport them to the real Hamas tunnels because there's no connection. Is it unreasonable to think the hostages went to the best hospital in Gaza to get their injuries treated? The hostages meant everything to Hamas plans for the prisoner swap. IIRC the hostages in the video were the Thai ones that got returned safely.

 

Israel claimed they had CONCRETE evidence. They showed some a few weeks ago. It wasn't good enough for me. But its not good enough for the Post either, now that means something. 

 

And Israel didn't destroy the hospital. They entered it, searched it, and left. Totally reasonable given the intelligence they had, which turned out to be correct. As stated, Hamas gunmen were in the hospital, armed, and with hostages. 

[Super19]

3 hours ago, Sharpshooter said:

 

Better than nothing. But not enough. 

Russia abstained because they said they insist on having a ceasefire in the resolution. 

US abstained because... well, at least they didn't veto.

 

Thanks for sharing pivotal and crucial updates such as this.

[Super19]

3 hours ago, Taxi said:

 

And Israel didn't destroy the hospital. They entered it, searched it, and left. Totally reasonable given the intelligence they had, which turned out to be correct. As stated, Hamas gunmen were in the hospital, armed, and with hostages. 

Israel literally sieged the hospital. Resulting in dozens of deaths and forced terribly wounded patients to evacuate which resulted in an unknown # of deaths.

 

Israels intelligence was WRONG. Literally the whole point of the Post's analysis. Israel was wrong about what they thought was at al-Shifa. They broke rules by targetting the hospital. Israel said the had concrete evidence about a Hamas command centre, and they were fucking wrong.

 

Where was the Hamas command centre? It wasn't there. Didn't exist. "But there is a list... there is a khamas tunnel". 

 

Hospitals have special protection. You cannot target it on a hunch that Hamas is there. Israel said they had concrete evidence of it. And then they proved NOTHING. They had no grounds to enter and do what they did. Hamas took the hostages to the best hospital in Gaza to have their injuries treated is the most reasonable explanations for that video. And getting that video only came after war crimes committed by Israel. And not to mention the fact there was no evidence of anything other than Hamas taking hostages to the hospital, simply to use the hospital for the function hospitals serve, and IIRC those hostages shown in the video were the ones successfully returned.

[Super19]

3 hours ago, Taxi said:

 

And Israel didn't destroy the hospital. They entered it, searched it, and left. Totally reasonable given the intelligence they had, which turned out to be correct. As stated, Hamas gunmen were in the hospital, armed, and with hostages. 

And that's just one hospital. Israel has targeted and destroyed or partially destroyed dozens of hospitals. And thats not all thats been destroyed either. Children and journalists have been killed at unprecedented rates in modern warfare. Is this an army you actually support unconditionally? 

[Ilunga]

4 hours ago, RomanPer said:

Bro, really? “Have those Arab countries killed or forcibly expelled the Jews ?”

 

Yes and yes. Just read this little history of Jews in the Arab world. And waving a flag of “largest Jewish population in Iran” is laughable - from 150,000 less than 100 years ago to peanuts that it’s today is not really something for the Muslim countries to be proud of

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world

 

I am not waving a flag for them, I was actually quite surprised when I learnt this fact, that, that many Jews still lived lived in Iran. 

 

That link stated that they fled were expelled, the number was 900,000.

If this was against their will I totally condemn this.

This is totally unjust.

 

Does that give Isreal the right to treat Palestinians the same way now ?

 

Expel them from where they live ?

5.35 million of them as of 2022.

Does one injustice justify another ?

 

See as I have stated before, this is where I differ from nearly everyone in this thread, with a couple of notable exceptions. I call out/condemn the extremists and the unjust actions of both the Palestinians and the Isrealis.

 

Most of the regular posters just call out the Palestinians. 

Somd of them actually find reasons to justify illegal acts.

Things they wouldn't want happening to them.

 

As I have also stated, it takes 2 sides for a conflict, it also takes compromise, not many posters talk about the comprises Isreal must make. 

 

I will make it clear what I believe the Palestinians should do, remove Hamas, install leaders that are willing to acknowledge Isreals right to exist.

Renounce all forms of violence.

Treat the Israelis the way they want to be treated themselves, with dignity, respect and Compassion. 

 

This is basically what I expect the Isrealis to do.

Take their religious extremists out the equation.

Renounce all forms of violence.

Give back the land that has been illegally acquired.

And treat the Palestinians they way they want to be treated themselves, with dignity and respect and compassion.

 

 

 

[Super19]

10 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

This is horrible.

[Bob Long]

4 hours ago, Sharpshooter said:

 

 

OK. So how does this get enforced? 

[Bob Long]

5 hours ago, RomanPer said:

Bro, really? “Have those Arab countries killed or forcibly expelled the Jews ?”

 

Yes and yes. Just read this little history of Jews in the Arab world. And waving a flag of “largest Jewish population in Iran” is laughable - from 150,000 less than 100 years ago to peanuts that it’s today is not really something for the Muslim countries to be proud of

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world

 

its a bit scary how fast the past is glossed over in arguments around this conflict.