Hamas attacking Israel

[Super19]

8 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

its a bit scary how fast the past is glossed over in arguments around this conflict. 

Europeans were responsible for some of the most horrific crimes against Jewish people. Then they kicked em out and are now allowing Israel do to Palestinians what was done to them.

[Super19]

Past Precedents for Muslim and Jewish Peace

A solution to the conflict between Israel and Palestine seems as far away as ever. But, says Martin Gilbert, past relations between Muslims and Jews have often been harmonious and can be so again.

 

https://www.historytoday.com/archive/path-peace-muslims-and-jews

[Super19]

Since we are talking about the past and historical context, which is actually very important for all sides because this did not start on Oct 7 and historical context is indeed important. for what it's worth, the founder of Hamas said this in an interview a few decades ago:

 

The founder of Hamas, Sheikh Ahmed Ismail Hassan Yassin, said:

 

"We don't hate Jews and fight them because they are Jews.

Jews are people of a religion, and we are people of a religion.

We love all people of different religions.

My brother even if he is my brother and he is a Muslim,

If he steals my house and kicks me out, I will resist him."

 

Hypocritical? Or a clear distinction between Jews/Judaism/Religion vs oppression from a state.

[Bob Long]

17 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Europeans were responsible for some of the most horrific crimes against Jewish people. Then they kicked em out and are now allowing Israel do to Palestinians what was done to them.

 

bullshit. Israelis are not doing to Palestinians what happened to European Jews. I mean why would you even go there?

 

Show me the gas chambers, or stop this kind of nonsense. 

 

[Super19]

3 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

bullshit. Israelis are not doing to Palestinians what happened to European Jews. I mean why would you even go there?

 

Show me the gas chambers, or stop this kind of nonsense. 

 

 

Push a people who are already described as living in an 'open air prison concentration camp" into zones. That are getting smaller and smaller. Pushed down from the north into the south. And then bomb those areas anyway? Horrifying. 

 

"Israel said Gazans could flee to this neighbourhood - then it was hit.

Using on-the-ground footage, satellite imagery and mapping software, Sky News found that a building in Deir al Balah was hit on 5 December, one day after Israel told civilians they could flee to the city.

...

In response to our findings, the UN told us it is already investigating 52 similar incidents in areas where the Israeli army told civilians it was safe to evacuate."

 

"NYT investigation: Israel used one-ton bombs in 'safe zones' in south Gaza Strip

“Israel has used one of its most destructive and largest bombs over 200 times in areas in southern Gaza it designated as safe for civilians”

 

 

Does it at least make you think a genocide is possiblely happening?

 

And this is what the people responsible for it are saying:

 

 

[Super19]

Here's a German man so ashamed it led him to do this extreme gesture:

 

 

[Bob Long]

3 minutes ago, Super19 said:

 

Push a people who are already described as living in an 'open air prison concentration camp" into zones. That are getting smaller and smaller. Pushed down from the north into the south. And then bomb those areas anyway? Horrifying. 

 

"Israel said Gazans could flee to this neighbourhood - then it was hit.

Using on-the-ground footage, satellite imagery and mapping software, Sky News found that a building in Deir al Balah was hit on 5 December, one day after Israel told civilians they could flee to the city.

...

In response to our findings, the UN told us it is already investigating 52 similar incidents in areas where the Israeli army told civilians it was safe to evacuate."

 

"NYT investigation: Israel used one-ton bombs in 'safe zones' in south Gaza Strip

“Israel has used one of its most destructive and largest bombs over 200 times in areas in southern Gaza it designated as safe for civilians”

 

 

Does it at least make you think a genocide is possiblely happening?

 

And this is what the people responsible for it are saying:

 

 

 

 

 

just stop with the nonsense stuff. If the Israelis did what you are accusing them of, there wouldn't be any Palestinians. 

 

 

[Super19]

1 minute ago, Bob Long said:

 

 

 

just stop with the nonsense stuff. If the Israelis did what you are accusing them of, there wouldn't be any Palestinians. 

 

 

How many children dead will it take before it gets too much? Sources say at least 8,000+ killed children already, including 1,000+ babies. Over 20k men women and children killed total, and estimates suggest this is on the low end.

 

And those are just from bombs. How many more will be killed from starvation? Dirty water? Diseases? No safe shelter? A severe lack of aid. As more bombs continue to fall! Just yesterday the IDF gloated about bombing an entire neighbourhood, which was just posted 1 page back.

 

And Israeli officials and talking heads on channels are saying as much about wiping it all out. And how they're animals that can't be tamed.

[Bob Long]

Just now, Super19 said:

How many children dead will it take before it gets too much? Sources say at least 8,000+ killed children already, including 1,000+ babies. Over 20k men women and children killed total, and estimates suggest this is on the low end.

 

And those are just from bombs. How many more will be killed from starvation? Dirty water? Diseases? No safe shelter? A severe lack of aid. As more bombs continue to fall! Just yesterday the IDF gloated about bombing an entire neighbourhood, which was just posted 1 page back.

 

And Israeli officials and talking heads on channels are saying as much about wiping it all out. And how they're animals that can't be tamed.

 

I'm sorry I just can't take you seriously anymore after what you suggested above. I'll stop responding to you and save you the typing. 

 

[Super19]

1 minute ago, Bob Long said:

 

I'm sorry I just can't take you seriously anymore after what you suggested above. I'll stop responding to you and save you the typing. 

 

Scholars of the subject, who know what the fuck they are talking about, are if not fearing a genocide, are already calling it a genocide. 

 

The travesty beyond the genocide is that this one is being supported.

[Alflives]

53 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Europeans were responsible for some of the most horrific crimes against Jewish people. Then they kicked em out and are now allowing Israel do to Palestinians what was done to them.

No. Jewish people are not doing to Palistinian people what was done to Jewish people by the Nazis. 
On reality, the IDF is freeing the Gaza people from the evil that is Hamas. 

[Taxi]

3 hours ago, Super19 said:

And that's just one hospital. Israel has targeted and destroyed or partially destroyed dozens of hospitals. And thats not all thats been destroyed either. Children and journalists have been killed at unprecedented rates in modern warfare. Is this an army you actually support unconditionally? 

 

Hamas does not get to treat hospitals like its tag and the hospitals are  "home free". The director of the Adwan Hospital just gave a confession about how Hamas uses the hospitals for military purposes.

[Yoshiyoshi]

2 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

I am not waving a flag for them, I was actually quite surprised when I learnt this fact, that, that many Jews still lived lived in Iran. 

 

That link stated that they fled were expelled, the number was 900,000.

If this was against their will I totally condemn this.

This is totally unjust.

 

Does that give Isreal the right to treat Palestinians the same way now ?

 

Expel them from where they live ?

5.35 million of them as of 2022.

Does one injustice justify another ?

 

See as I have stated before, this is where I differ from nearly everyone in this thread, with a couple of notable exceptions. I call out/condemn the extremists and the unjust actions of both the Palestinians and the Isrealis.

 

Most of the regular posters just call out the Palestinians. 

Somd of them actually find reasons to justify illegal acts.

Things they wouldn't want happening to them.

 

As I have also stated, it takes 2 sides for a conflict, it also takes compromise, not many posters talk about the comprises Isreal must make. 

 

I will make it clear what I believe the Palestinians should do, remove Hamas, install leaders that are willing to acknowledge Isreals right to exist.

Renounce all forms of violence.

Treat the Israelis the way they want to be treated themselves, with dignity, respect and Compassion. 

 

This is basically what I expect the Isrealis to do.

Take their religious extremists out the equation.

Renounce all forms of violence.

Give back the land that has been illegally acquired.

And treat the Palestinians they way they want to be treated themselves, with dignity and respect and compassion.

 

 

 

This is pretty much the starting point that Palestinians will have to get to before any chance of change happens.

Im not sure Israel can renounce violence until the hostile countries surrounding them do though so that cant be a starting point for Israel. The land issue I dont have an issue with either so long as the lands were actually illegally obtained. If giving back the land means no jewish people are allowed to live in the west bank then thats not going to fly.

[RomanPer]

3 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

I am not waving a flag for them, I was actually quite surprised when I learnt this fact, that, that many Jews still lived lived in Iran. 

 

That link stated that they fled were expelled, the number was 900,000.

If this was against their will I totally condemn this.

This is totally unjust.

 

Does that give Isreal the right to treat Palestinians the same way now ?

 

Expel them from where they live ?

5.35 million of them as of 2022.

Does one injustice justify another ?

 

See as I have stated before, this is where I differ from nearly everyone in this thread, with a couple of notable exceptions. I call out/condemn the extremists and the unjust actions of both the Palestinians and the Isrealis.

 

Most of the regular posters just call out the Palestinians. 

Somd of them actually find reasons to justify illegal acts.

Things they wouldn't want happening to them.

 

As I have also stated, it takes 2 sides for a conflict, it also takes compromise, not many posters talk about the comprises Isreal must make. 

 

I will make it clear what I believe the Palestinians should do, remove Hamas, install leaders that are willing to acknowledge Isreals right to exist.

Renounce all forms of violence.

Treat the Israelis the way they want to be treated themselves, with dignity, respect and Compassion. 

 

This is basically what I expect the Isrealis to do.

Take their religious extremists out the equation.

Renounce all forms of violence.

Give back the land that has been illegally acquired.

And treat the Palestinians they way they want to be treated themselves, with dignity and respect and compassion.

 

 

 

Sorry, 5 million weren’t displaced. And vast majority that left, did it of their own volition. The fact that they reproduce with such high numbers doesn’t mean Israel has to honour any of the 4-5th generations.

 

As for Jews from the Muslim countries - there are facts in that article alone about actual ethnic killings of Jews that led to the exodus. Not sure what more is needed.

[RomanPer]

3 hours ago, Super19 said:

Europeans were responsible for some of the most horrific crimes against Jewish people. Then they kicked em out and are now allowing Israel do to Palestinians what was done to them.

You have some serious guts to compare. Please show me concentration camps and gas chambers for Palestinians in Israel. Shame on you to even thinking about the comparison. As a result of Holocaust Jewish population was reduced by 6 million. As a result of Israeli treatment of Palestinians their population only increased since 1948.

[Super19]

31 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

You have some serious guts to compare. Please show me concentration camps and gas chambers for Palestinians in Israel. Shame on you to even thinking about the comparison. As a result of Holocaust Jewish population was reduced by 6 million. As a result of Israeli treatment of Palestinians their population only increased since 1948.

Shame on me??? You're the one not seeing this war as a genocide and somehow I'm the bad guy...

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

This is pretty much the starting point that Palestinians will have to get to before any chance of change happens.

Im not sure Israel can renounce violence until the hostile countries surrounding them do though so that cant be a starting point for Israel. The land issue I dont have an issue with either so long as the lands were actually illegally obtained. If giving back the land means no jewish people are allowed to live in the west bank then thats not going to fly.

 

Pretty much the starting point ?

What I have stated boils down to the dynamic I live my life by, treat others the way you want to be treated yourself, with respect, dignity and compassion.

Also you don't want to be fucked with, don't fuck with others.

 

No ifs, buts or I am not sure about it.

 

Tell me how much land do the Palestinians have to give up before they don't have enough land to form a viable state ? 

 

It's all the about the faults of the Palestinians right ?

Let's ignore the faults of the Isrealis. 

 

As I have stated, I condemn both sides for their actions that fuel this continuing circle of hatred. 

 

 

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, RomanPer said:

Sorry, 5 million weren’t displaced. And vast majority that left, did it of their own volition. The fact that they reproduce with such high numbers doesn’t mean Israel has to honour any of the 4-5th generations.

 

As for Jews from the Muslim countries - there are facts in that article alone about actual ethnic killings of Jews that led to the exodus. Not sure what more is needed.

 

Did you note the question mark ?

That was a question.

 

 

Did you note that I condemned any actions that are performed against the Jewish peoples will. 

That includes killing people.

I believe I have made enough posts on this and the old board to illustrate how I feel about this.

Or do I have to state the obvious.

 

Maybe I should be like Alf.

 

Every post, Hamas is evil, Hamas should be exterminated.

 

I don't know how many fuckin times I have condemned Hamas.

 

Just so we are clear, I condemn Hamas.

I don't believe violence is the way to change people beliefs. 

I believe in peaceful solutions. 

 

Here you go for the third time from an Isreali whose work at the Nuremberg war trials formed the basis of international law

 

" You can't change an entrenched ideology with a gun "

 

 " You have to teach compassion and empathy when people are young "

 

Ben Ferenc

A truly wise and compassionate man who also stated something else that I live my life around,

 

" I don't care about glory, I don't care about money, I came into this world a pauper, I lived most of my early life in poverty and now I am giving it all back "

 

[Inkidu]

3 hours ago, Super19 said:

Here's a German man so ashamed it led him to do this extreme gesture:

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Super19 said:

Since we are talking about the past and historical context, which is actually very important for all sides because this did not start on Oct 7 and historical context is indeed important. for what it's worth, the founder of Hamas said this in an interview a few decades ago:

 

The founder of Hamas, Sheikh Ahmed Ismail Hassan Yassin, said:

 

"We don't hate Jews and fight them because they are Jews.

Jews are people of a religion, and we are people of a religion.

We love all people of different religions.

My brother even if he is my brother and he is a Muslim,

If he steals my house and kicks me out, I will resist him."

 

Hypocritical? Or a clear distinction between Jews/Judaism/Religion vs oppression from a state.

 

"There is a way that seems right to a man, but that way lies death." 

[Yoshiyoshi]

31 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Pretty much the starting point ?

What I have stated boils down to the dynamic I live my life by, treat others the way you want to be treated yourself, with respect, dignity and compassion.

Also you don't want to be fucked with, don't fuck with others.

 

No ifs, buts or I am not sure about it.

 

Tell me how much land do the Palestinians have to give up before they don't have enough land to form a viable state ? 

 

It's all the about the faults of the Palestinians right ?

Let's ignore the faults of the Isrealis. 

 

As I have stated, I condemn both sides for their actions that fuel this continuing circle of hatred. 

 

 

Im disappointed that you once again seem to have been offended by me almost agreeing with you on something but whatever.

 

As to the land thing, why should we care if they have enough land to form their own country? They never had one in the past, it was owned by the British and i think it was some form of Turkey before that? Should every group of people on the planet have a right to form their own state out of the countries they live in? I believe when the UN created Israel they also tried to form a Palestinian state which was rejected by the people and they instead chose to fight. And lost. The countries that opposed Israel attacked and lost land multiple times. I could maybe see your point more if Israel was the attacker but they werent, even the one time they attacked first it was a preemptive strike before the other side could attack. It is quite common for land to be seized at the end of a war, to form a buffer zone and to punish the attacker.

 

You keep pushing this narrative that we are ignoring the fault of Israel, but the truth is that we just arent willing to jump on the Israel is bad bandwagon and blame them for everything. As I have said, i will oppose specific acts of Israel that I think are wrong. If they go in and take land by force then yes i would condemn that unless that land was being used to attack Israel in some form. But if they buy the land or use some other legal means to acquire it im not going to oppose that. With the type of fighting that Hamas and those like them use, it is very hard to find out what is actually a valid target or not. So as a result of that, if you want me to condemn a specific act, you need to have proof of said act from a source I can consider reasonably honest with minimal bias.

 

You are free to condemn both sides, I personally dont think that accomplishes anything and doesnt lead to any discussion about how to change things for the better. From what I see, the only way for a lasting peace to happen is for the Palestinians to take the first step. If Israel were to take the first step it would just be treated as a sign of weakness and result in more attacks against them, if not by Palestinians, then by other hostile Arab groups. Nothing would change. But if the Palestinians took the steps you mentioned, that would be a big change that would allow Israel to be less hostile towards them and eventually they could stop having to have checkpoints everywhere and have to be constantly on guard from people living in their own country. Maybe the 2 state solution could be revived eventually too.

[Ilunga]

30 minutes ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

Im disappointed that you once again seem to have been offended by me almost agreeing with you on something but whatever.

 

As to the land thing, why should we care if they have enough land to form their own country? They never had one in the past, it was owned by the British and i think it was some form of Turkey before that? Should every group of people on the planet have a right to form their own state out of the countries they live in? I believe when the UN created Israel they also tried to form a Palestinian state which was rejected by the people and they instead chose to fight. And lost. The countries that opposed Israel attacked and lost land multiple times. I could maybe see your point more if Israel was the attacker but they werent, even the one time they attacked first it was a preemptive strike before the other side could attack. It is quite common for land to be seized at the end of a war, to form a buffer zone and to punish the attacker.

 

You keep pushing this narrative that we are ignoring the fault of Israel, but the truth is that we just arent willing to jump on the Israel is bad bandwagon and blame them for everything. As I have said, i will oppose specific acts of Israel that I think are wrong. If they go in and take land by force then yes i would condemn that unless that land was being used to attack Israel in some form. But if they buy the land or use some other legal means to acquire it im not going to oppose that. With the type of fighting that Hamas and those like them use, it is very hard to find out what is actually a valid target or not. So as a result of that, if you want me to condemn a specific act, you need to have proof of said act from a source I can consider reasonably honest with minimal bias.

 

You are free to condemn both sides, I personally dont think that accomplishes anything and doesnt lead to any discussion about how to change things for the better. From what I see, the only way for a lasting peace to happen is for the Palestinians to take the first step. If Israel were to take the first step it would just be treated as a sign of weakness and result in more attacks against them, if not by Palestinians, then by other hostile Arab groups. Nothing would change. But if the Palestinians took the steps you mentioned, that would be a big change that would allow Israel to be less hostile towards them and eventually they could stop having to have checkpoints everywhere and have to be constantly on guard from people living in their own country. Maybe the 2 state solution could be revived eventually too.

 

I am not offended, I am frustrated that people can't realise that the Isreali people also commit unjust acts. 

 

Am I blaming Isreal for everything ?

How many times do I have to state, it's a circle of hatred that is fueled by extremists on both sides.

 

Forget the international community, why do so many Isrealis state that Isreal practices a form of arpartheid.

Yitzhak Rabin PM of Isreal warned as far back as 1976 

 

" Calling the still nascent west bank  settler movement, 

Comparable to a cancer and warned that Isreal risked becoming an arpartheid state if it annexed and absorbed the west banks Arab population " 

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-1976-interview-rabin-likens-settlements-to-cancer-warns-of-apartheid/

 

More recently 

 

Many current and former Isreali politicians agree with this, including 2 former Prime Ministers, Ehud Barak and Ehud Olmert

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/05/amnesty-israel-apartheid-israeli-politicians-agree

 

Yossi Sarid, former leader of the Isreali opposition

 

" What acts like arpartheid, is run like arpartheid, and harrasses like arpartheid is not a duck, it's arpartheid "

 

Isreals former attorney general Michael Ben Yair 

 

" We've established an arpartheid regime in the occupied territories immediately following their capture, that oppressive regime exists to this day "

 

 

How about a former head of the Mossad, 

Tamir Pardo

 

https://apnews.com/article/israel-apartheid-palestinians-occupation-c8137c9e7f33c2cba7b0b5ac7fa8d115 

 

 

 

This just acts of settler violence since the October the 7th attacks 

That both your and mine governments amongst others, call the Isreali goverment to tackle 

 

 

https://www.dfat.gov.au/news/media-release/joint-statement-settler-violence-west-bank

 

" 343 violent attacks, killing 8 Palestinian civilians, injuring more than 83, and forcing 1026 Palestinians from their homes "

 

 

[Ilunga]

 

If men possessed wisdom, which stands in the same relation to the form of man as the sight of the eye, they would not cause any injury to themselves or to others, for the knowledge of truth removes hatred and quarrels, and prevents mutual injuries 

 

Moses Maimonides 

[Yoshiyoshi]

1 hour ago, Ilunga said:

 

I am not offended, I am frustrated that people can't realise that the Isreali people also commit unjust acts. 

 

Am I blaming Isreal for everything ?

How many times do I have to state, it's a circle of hatred that is fueled by extremists on both sides.

 

Forget the international community, why do so many Isrealis state that Isreal practices a form of arpartheid.

Yitzhak Rabin PM of Isreal warned as far back as 1976 

 

" Calling the still nascent west bank  settler movement, 

Comparable to a cancer and warned that Isreal risked becoming an arpartheid state if it annexed and absorbed the west banks Arab population " 

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-1976-interview-rabin-likens-settlements-to-cancer-warns-of-apartheid/

 

More recently 

 

Many current and former Isreali politicians agree with this, including 2 former Prime Ministers, Ehud Barak and Ehud Olmert

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/05/amnesty-israel-apartheid-israeli-politicians-agree

 

Yossi Sarid, former leader of the Isreali opposition

 

" What acts like arpartheid, is run like arpartheid, and harrasses like arpartheid is not a duck, it's arpartheid "

 

Isreals former attorney general Michael Ben Yair 

 

" We've established an arpartheid regime in the occupied territories immediately following their capture, that oppressive regime exists to this day "

 

 

How about a former head of the Mossad, 

Tamir Pardo

 

https://apnews.com/article/israel-apartheid-palestinians-occupation-c8137c9e7f33c2cba7b0b5ac7fa8d115 

 

 

 

This just acts of settler violence since the October the 7th attacks 

That both your and mine governments amongst others, call the Isreali goverment to tackle 

 

 

https://www.dfat.gov.au/news/media-release/joint-statement-settler-violence-west-bank

 

" 343 violent attacks, killing 8 Palestinian civilians, injuring more than 83, and forcing 1026 Palestinians from their homes "

 

 

Sounds like something worth condemning, however there are apparently around 500k israeli jewish people living in the west bank so again not going to blame everyone there. I would like to see the numbers for attacks in the other direction to compare to. That would give a better idea of whats going on.

[Ilunga]

9 minutes ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

Sounds like something worth condemning, however there are apparently around 500k israeli jewish people living in the west bank so again not going to blame everyone there. I would like to see the numbers for attacks in the other direction to compare to. That would give a better idea of whats going on.

 

Pretty simple to me brother.

Doesn't matter who is attacking who, what is happening is wrong. 

 

Can't you just simply condemn something that is wrong. 

 

I condemn the Palestinians who attack Isrealis full stop, settlers or not.

 

Or do you believe that the circle of hatred should continue ? 

 

What about Arpartheid ?

Don't you believe what those very prominent Isrealis amongst 

others have stated ? 

 

How about some prominent Isreali scholars, artists, ex ambassadors and historians 

 

https://www.commondreams.org/news/academics-israeli-apartheid

 

From a Jewish person who grew up in South Africa and witnessed arpartheid there 

 

" Isreal is going where South Africa was 75 years ago. It is like watching the replay of a horror movie. 

I have argued with all my might against the accusation that Isreal is an arpartheid state, in lectures, news paper articles on TV and in a book he continued, however the accusation is becoming fact, in Isreal I am now witnessing the apartheid with which I grew up " 

 

I believe Benjamin Pogrund knows what he is talking about.

 

[Ilunga]

4 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

You may not be the bad guy, you just don’t like Jews very much.

 

 

One of my most favourite people on this planet is a Jew, he describes himself as a Heeb 

 

The only time a little hate is justified 

 

 

 

Edit 

Just in case I wasn't clear this is his band.

 

As they described themselves on one album title 

 

White trash, Two Heebs and a Bean

 

Edited December 23, 2023 by Ilunga