Hamas attacking Israel

[Canuck Surfer]

 

Genocide.

Edited January 4 by Canuck Surfer

[Taxi]

16 hours ago, Super19 said:

No, NYT did not say that. NYT reported that "US Intelligence" says that, and again, there is no proof or evidence released.

Also keep in mind with the ICJ hearing sometime soon, USA needs to cover their ass as well or elestt being complicit in genocide 

 

On the other hand, the Post's analysis concluded that Israel did not provide the evidence needed.

 

They brought hostages into the hospital at gun point. That alone gives Israel the right to enter. 

[Super19]

10 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

So its all about the oppressor (Israel)? Hamas has nothing to contribute to peace, or even it's own people in Palestine. 

This is an impotent response. More victimization, no responsibility. Take up the challenge of creating a free nation.

 

 

Why should anyone consider a nation for a group that for 80 years has insisted it gets everything they want.  Or will attack & never accept an Israeli state.  They have been offered a state on 5 Plus occasions. Each time walking away with less. While its leaders become billionaires charging tax to get goods through tunnels. Bought from estate agents in Iran that also profit off Palestinian suffering. 

 

C'mon, take some responsibility.  

 

 

There is no Hamas in the West Bank, yet there is still Israeli oppression there.

 

There is Hamas in Gaza, and there is Israeli oppression there.

 

Why do Israelis keep oppressing Palestinians? 

 

Nentanyahu effectively said he prevented all peace deals from falling through.

[Super19]

4 minutes ago, Taxi said:

 

They brought hostages into the hospital at gun point. That alone gives Israel the right to enter. 

Hospitals have special protections even under war. Israel broke the rules just by entering that hospital. And THEN they found that video footage. And there were no hostages kept there nor were there any links to the real hamas tunnels from al-Shifa.

 

Again, if you wanna bank on something, bank on the fact that Hamas took hostages to get treated. Everything else is really reaching, and that's why there's a big outcry.

 

I clearly remember the 3d maps Israel was showing that depicted the Hamas command centre at al-Shifa, yet it never existed... just blatant lies that you're eating up because you do not value Palestinian life the same as Israeli life.

[StrayDog]

23 minutes ago, Super19 said:

1) Hospitals have special protections even under war. Israel broke the rules just by entering that hospital. And THEN they found that video footage. And there were no hostages kept there nor were there any links to the real hamas tunnels from al-Shifa.

 

2) Again, if you wanna bank on something, bank on the fact that Hamas took hostages to get treated. Everything else is really reaching, and that's why there's a big outcry.

 

3) I clearly remember the 3d maps Israel was showing that depicted the Hamas command centre at al-Shifa, yet it never existed... just blatant lies that you're eating up because you do not value Palestinian life the same as Israeli life.

1) Correct. Under the Geneva Convention hospitals are protected ground. However, that only extends as far until they shelter able-bodied combatants. Hamas' able-bodied combatants took shelter in a hospital and it doesn't matter if they were using it as a place to hold the hostages (taking hostages is also a violation of the Geneva Conventions, fyi) or legitimately taking the hostages for treatment. Armed and able-bodied combatants took refuge in the hospital, bringing the attention of the IDF.

2) Fixed it for you.

3) The tunnels under the hospital never existed? I realize a lot of (mis)information has been flying around - can you point to a news source that verifies that claim? Otherwise, to paraphrase, it's "just blatant lies that you're eating up because you do not value Israeli life the same as Palestinian life."

 

 

[Taxi]

2 hours ago, Super19 said:

Hospitals have special protections even under war. Israel broke the rules just by entering that hospital. And THEN they found that video footage. And there were no hostages kept there nor were there any links to the real hamas tunnels from al-Shifa.

 

Again, if you wanna bank on something, bank on the fact that Hamas took hostages to get treated. Everything else is really reaching, and that's why there's a big outcry.

 

I clearly remember the 3d maps Israel was showing that depicted the Hamas command centre at al-Shifa, yet it never existed... just blatant lies that you're eating up because you do not value Palestinian life the same as Israeli life.

 

International law states hospitals only hold their protected status so long as they are not being used for a military purpose. As soon as a hostage (or a gunman for that matter) entered that hospital, it lost its protected status. In order for a hospital to remain protected it must be used "exclusively" for non-military purposes. 

[Super19]

1 hour ago, Taxi said:

 

International law states hospitals only hold their protected status so long as they are not being used for a military purpose. As soon as a hostage (or a gunman for that matter) entered that hospital, it lost its protected status. In order for a hospital to remain protected it must be used "exclusively" for non-military purposes. 

The hospital served as no other function other than to provide medical attention. Nothing else.

 

The evidence provided supports nothing else.

[Canuck Surfer]

10 hours ago, Super19 said:

There is no Hamas in the West Bank

 

Uhm, nope.  Factually incorrect.

 

Most discussions on a Palestinian state, also all previous renditions rejected (in 2006 by Hamas, prev by others in cluding PA / PLO) had the West Bank together with Gaza proposed for sovereignty. To my knowledge all had East Jerusalem as the proposed capital. These were proposals by Israel & the West. al-Arouri just assasinated was born in Ramallah in the West Bank; his political & 'activity' base started & remains there. Also crossing in to Lebanon & Syria there has been of course more rockets, abductions, assaults on guards, things like tourist bus or suicide bombers from the West Bank until recently. Effectively the primary reason Israel wants an occupied or negotiated demilitarized zone.  Its been offered multiple times. 

 

Hezbollah of course leaks in to the West Bank, and they have coordinated activities with Hamas. Are a main black market trade route & arms supplier for Hamas; but are home based in Lebanon. 

 

In 2005/06 Hamas was offered Gaza & West Bank.  They rejected it. Launched an attack which included raining missiles from the West Bank. Prefaced by, cough, a hostage taking and a demand that Israel sede. Then started smuggling arms in to Gaza. Much smaller scale, but terror attacks & hostages are kinda a signature move?  This immediately after the complete Israeli withdrawal from Gaza.

 

Also proposed in the 80's/90's. Google Camp David.

[4petesake]

7 hours ago, Super19 said:

The hospital served as no other function other than to provide medical attention. Nothing else.

 

The evidence provided supports nothing else.

 

In police or military terms this is called a ‘frog march’ and not generally confused with transporting someone in need of medical attention.

 

 

 

 

[Mac]

13 hours ago, Super19 said:

Hospitals have special protections even under war. Israel broke the rules just by entering that hospital. And THEN they found that video footage. And there were no hostages kept there nor were there any links to the real hamas tunnels from al-Shifa.

 

Again, if you wanna bank on something, bank on the fact that Hamas took hostages to get treated. Everything else is really reaching, and that's why there's a big outcry.

 

I clearly remember the 3d maps Israel was showing that depicted the Hamas command centre at al-Shifa, yet it never existed... just blatant lies that you're eating up because you do not value Palestinian life the same as Israeli life.

 

hamas started this war by raping women and burning babies.

 

I hope Israel kills all hamas terrorists.

[Optimist Prime]

2 hours ago, 4petesake said:

 

In police or military terms this is called a ‘frog march’ and not generally confused with transporting someone in need of medical attention.

 

 

 

 

Just saw a 12 minute video released yesterday showing the basement level of al shift, then a sub basement, then a tiled space below that with doors leading off to tunnels that went at least 250 meters and connected to other tunnels and levels. The video Grapher took it in one long take just before Israel blew up the tunnels. There were tiled spaces along the long tunnelled portion with a sink or a toilet or in one section a large tiled room like an office. The tiles matched the basement tiles of al shifa. I have seen the proof. You can Google it. Many news outlets are now carrying it.

[Canuck Surfer]

LOLOL

 

ISIS/ISIL claims responsibility for Iran bombing attack.  Iran claims it was masterminded by Israel. 

 

Thats it @Super19!  Israel is behind all Islamic militants...  

 

Underscores the real problem in the middle east. Each Islamic group sets goals to be the supreme leader of any region they target.  If Muslim's are in the way?  They are just as in the way as Israel. Except (almost) all Muslim groups want to lay claim to Jerusalem's West Wall. 

 

 

Is this a parable?  Nah, does not rhyme. 

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[RomanPer]

13 hours ago, Super19 said:

The hospital served as no other function other than to provide medical attention. Nothing else.

 

The evidence provided supports nothing else.

 

This is complete lie. I have a 7 minutes video from the tunnels under the Shifa hospital. Unfortunately, it's too large to upload on this site. It shows rooms, washrooms, electricity, etc in the tunnels. I'm sure, you are expecting to see a full NATO style JSOC centre, with computers and large screen monitors, satellite access, etc, to be convinced that Hamas indeed had serious infrastructure under the hospital.

[RomanPer]

On 1/3/2024 at 7:30 PM, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Separate discussion. When I mentioned Israel withdrawing masses of its troops to you a few days ago? To engage a more targeted itinerary in Gaza.

 

Its likely they were securing reserves in case there was a backlash to the impending assassination of Saleh al-Arouri. 

 

A Northern front had massive potential became more active. With the southern front activity, some good if your Palestinian Hamas guerilla work aside, just mopping up to do. Its logical they would bring back reserves for a backlash from a Lebanese front, activity in the West Bank. 

 

He is was, reportedly, the original link to contacting Shia Iran for funding and support in Gaza 20+ years ago. A company man, I have no doubt he was committed to his cause. The deputy political leader of Hamas, and it's original organizer of its militant wing. Responsible, cough, for the hierarchy of funding that supplied both weapons and payola within the gang structure inside Gaza. Dig the tunnels, get paid; pay 'tribute' back to Hamas leaders & Iran for weapons supply and tunnel access in an ongoing, pardon the true pun, underground Ponzi scheme. Which made Gaza impenetrable to Palestinian (PA) and external opposition.

 

Are you familiar with the PA?  Is there any credible opposition to Hamas, Palestinian Authority or otherwise?  And what is their stability.  The PA also a political, cough, arm of what was a terrorist organization for 30 years. Albeit one that was ready to do a peace deal, I worry for back door payola, nonetheless a peace deal with Israel like Egypt ten plus years earlier in 2005. If you are up to it; as a 'proponent of Gazan's & Palestinian' I'd like to challenge you to investigate and report here on legitimate peaceful options, internally, not just a campaign that Israel die leave, which could surface for Palestinian people. 

 

It would be a mistake if empowering the PA just gave another militant group the keys, like happened in Sudan & West Sudan 2 years ago. Reinvigorated power for Asaad in Syria. It would be critical to cut ties with the IRGC specifically & Muslim Brotherhood connections in Israel, Hezbollah. Or are these, sort of, furtive connections healthy? 

 

I'd love @RomanPer's suggestions from the other side of the moon? @Ilunga's input on the philosophical! Who could responsibly administer for a peaceful Palestinian nations birth? 

 

Sorry for the delay, I'm in Spain on vacation.

 

First - a few days ago there was a news report that IDF discovered a tunnel in the West Bank, almost finished, leading to a Jewish settlement. Probably a very bloody terrorist attack was prevented. So, the tunnels is not just Hamas and not just in Gaza... I'm not very optimistic about any of the current Palestinian leaderships. PA is corrupt and hates Jews. Hamas is fanatical and hates Jews. They all have one thing in common...

 

Regarding the IDF exit from Gaza - it's just part of a regular rotation due to the major offensive being behind. Some of the reservists are actually being released. But they all have been told to be ready for another round within the next 4-6 months. North is a definite possibility, since having something like Hezbollah at the north is very dangerous. I'm not sure if people in the West know, but there are over 300,000 Israelis who are internally displaced at the moment. Practically the entire North of the country has been evacuated due to a constant threat of the attacks by Hezbollah and Syrian pro-Iran forces. This is one of the reasons one the Liechtenstein Air Force has been attacking certain targets in Syria and Lebanon. 

 

As for the 

[Bob Long]

5 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

Just saw a 12 minute video released yesterday showing the basement level of al shift, then a sub basement, then a tiled space below that with doors leading off to tunnels that went at least 250 meters and connected to other tunnels and levels. The video Grapher took it in one long take just before Israel blew up the tunnels. There were tiled spaces along the long tunnelled portion with a sink or a toilet or in one section a large tiled room like an office. The tiles matched the basement tiles of al shifa. I have seen the proof. You can Google it. Many news outlets are now carrying it.

 

Sure but that's not "evidence" right? Maybe it's like that mall in Minnesota and people just like to walk indoors during the winter.

[Super19]

5 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

This is complete lie. I have a 7 minutes video from the tunnels under the Shifa hospital. Unfortunately, it's too large to upload on this site. It shows rooms, washrooms, electricity, etc in the tunnels. I'm sure, you are expecting to see a full NATO style JSOC centre, with computers and large screen monitors, satellite access, etc, to be convinced that Hamas indeed had serious infrastructure under the hospital.

 

The whole problem is that Israel was wrong in their intelligence, or they flat out lied about it. Their justification to target al-Shifa was because they believed al-Shifa to be a major command and control centre for Hamas:

 

Quote

"The claims were remarkably specific — that five hospital buildings were directly involved in Hamas activities; that the buildings sat atop underground tunnels that were used by militants to direct rocket attacks and command fighters; and that the tunnels could be accessed from inside hospital wards. The assertions were backed by “concrete evidence,” Israel Defense Forces spokesman Daniel Hagari said as he laid out the case in an Oct. 27 briefing.

 

In regards to the tunnels and tiled rooms:

 

"The Post mapped the path of the tunnel by geolocating the excavation sites within al-Shifa and analyzing the videos frame-by-frame to determine the network’s directionality and length. The Post then superimposed the tunnel routes on the original map released by the IDF on Oct. 27 that it said showed the full extent of Hamas’s command and control infrastructure.

None of the five buildings highlighted by the IDF appear to connect to the tunnels, and no evidence has been produced showing that the tunnels could be accessed from inside the hospital wards, as Hagari had claimed"

 

"The bare, white-tiled rooms showed no immediate evidence of use — for command and control or otherwise. There are no signs of recent habitation, including litter, food containers, clothing or other personal items."

 

"“If you don’t end up finding what you said you were going to find, that justifies skepticism as to whether or not your assessment of military value in conducting the operation was legitimate,” said Geoffrey Corn, a law professor at Texas Tech University and a former senior law of war adviser to the U.S. Army. “It’s certainly not conclusive. The ultimate question is whether the assessment of military advantage was reasonable under the circumstances.”"

 

And then after their raid, the got the videos of Hamas leading some hostages through the hospital. But again, there is no proof that the hospital served as no other function other than a hospital.

 

 

Now keep in mind 2 babies in incubators died as a direct result from the actions taken by the IDF. Many more died as well. But even just this is horrifying and this blood is on the IDF hands. More premature babies in incubators died because of the IDF targetting al-Shifa than the total that died on Oct 7.

[Alflives]

21 minutes ago, Super19 said:

 

The whole problem is that Israel was wrong in their intelligence, or they flat out lied about it. Their justification to target al-Shifa was because they believed al-Shifa to be a major command and control centre for Hamas:

 

 

In regards to the tunnels and tiled rooms:

 

"The Post mapped the path of the tunnel by geolocating the excavation sites within al-Shifa and analyzing the videos frame-by-frame to determine the network’s directionality and length. The Post then superimposed the tunnel routes on the original map released by the IDF on Oct. 27 that it said showed the full extent of Hamas’s command and control infrastructure.

None of the five buildings highlighted by the IDF appear to connect to the tunnels, and no evidence has been produced showing that the tunnels could be accessed from inside the hospital wards, as Hagari had claimed"

 

"The bare, white-tiled rooms showed no immediate evidence of use — for command and control or otherwise. There are no signs of recent habitation, including litter, food containers, clothing or other personal items."

 

"“If you don’t end up finding what you said you were going to find, that justifies skepticism as to whether or not your assessment of military value in conducting the operation was legitimate,” said Geoffrey Corn, a law professor at Texas Tech University and a former senior law of war adviser to the U.S. Army. “It’s certainly not conclusive. The ultimate question is whether the assessment of military advantage was reasonable under the circumstances.”"

 

And then after their raid, the got the videos of Hamas leading some hostages through the hospital. But again, there is no proof that the hospital served as no other function other than a hospital.

 

 

Now keep in mind 2 babies in incubators died as a direct result from the actions taken by the IDF. Many more died as well. But even just this is horrifying and this blood is on the IDF hands. More premature babies in incubators died because of the IDF targetting al-Shifa than the total that died on Oct 7.

IMHAO the suffering Palestinian people in Gaza are experiencing is because of the actions, past and present, of Hamas and its supporters.

The IDF will eliminate Hamas. Then it will take 1-2 generations to help the people of Gaza to build up their area and deprogram the hatred. 

[Taxi]

1 hour ago, Super19 said:

 

The whole problem is that Israel was wrong in their intelligence, or they flat out lied about it. Their justification to target al-Shifa was because they believed al-Shifa to be a major command and control centre for Hamas:

 

 

In regards to the tunnels and tiled rooms:

 

"The Post mapped the path of the tunnel by geolocating the excavation sites within al-Shifa and analyzing the videos frame-by-frame to determine the network’s directionality and length. The Post then superimposed the tunnel routes on the original map released by the IDF on Oct. 27 that it said showed the full extent of Hamas’s command and control infrastructure.

None of the five buildings highlighted by the IDF appear to connect to the tunnels, and no evidence has been produced showing that the tunnels could be accessed from inside the hospital wards, as Hagari had claimed"

 

"The bare, white-tiled rooms showed no immediate evidence of use — for command and control or otherwise. There are no signs of recent habitation, including litter, food containers, clothing or other personal items."

 

"“If you don’t end up finding what you said you were going to find, that justifies skepticism as to whether or not your assessment of military value in conducting the operation was legitimate,” said Geoffrey Corn, a law professor at Texas Tech University and a former senior law of war adviser to the U.S. Army. “It’s certainly not conclusive. The ultimate question is whether the assessment of military advantage was reasonable under the circumstances.”"

 

And then after their raid, the got the videos of Hamas leading some hostages through the hospital. But again, there is no proof that the hospital served as no other function other than a hospital.

 

 

Now keep in mind 2 babies in incubators died as a direct result from the actions taken by the IDF. Many more died as well. But even just this is horrifying and this blood is on the IDF hands. More premature babies in incubators died because of the IDF targetting al-Shifa than the total that died on Oct 7.

 

You do realize that the reason that it took so long to get supplies into the hospital was because there was  military standoff there? Israel couldn't just enter the hospital as there were Hamas gunmen in and around the hospital. If there was no military presence in the hospital, Israel would have been able to just walk right in.

 

You also haven't seen all the US and Israeli intelligence on the area that led them to the conclusion that the hospital was being used as a command center. 

 

The US government continues to conclude that the hospital was being used as a command center:

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/02/us/politics/gaza-hospital-hamas.html

 

A reporter from the Washington Post, who has never been to the hospital and has zero intelligence data, however, somehow is more of an authority on the issue? His main piece of evidence, there wasn't enough garbage in the tunnels. Although you can clearly see lots of garbage and other personal items in the building where the stairs into the tunnel are (about 10:30):

 

It's unlikely that anyone would be living in a bunker. They would be in the buildings above the bunker and go into the bunker as necessary. 

[Super19]

41 minutes ago, Taxi said:

 

You do realize that the reason that it took so long to get supplies into the hospital was because there was  military standoff there? Israel couldn't just enter the hospital as there were Hamas gunmen in and around the hospital. If there was no military presence in the hospital, Israel would have been able to just walk right in.

 

You also haven't seen all the US and Israeli intelligence on the area that led them to the conclusion that the hospital was being used as a command center. 

 

The US government continues to conclude that the hospital was being used as a command center:

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/02/us/politics/gaza-hospital-hamas.html

 

A reporter from the Washington Post, who has never been to the hospital and has zero intelligence data, however, somehow is more of an authority on the issue? His main piece of evidence, there wasn't enough garbage in the tunnels. Although you can clearly see lots of garbage and other personal items in the building where the stairs into the tunnel are (about 10:30):

 

It's unlikely that anyone would be living in a bunker. They would be in the buildings above the bunker and go into the bunker as necessary. 

Israel is denying the right of willing journalists to enter Gaza to do their jobs to document and investigate. Major red flag.

 

You also haven't seen the US intellegence re: al-Shifa. It's not released. Again, you're banking on that the USA is right. 2 premature babies in incubators died as a direct result of the actions taken by the IDF. 

 

Let's just say you end up being right. How effective was Israel's military operation in al-Shifa at eliminating Hamas? Like what did the IDF accomplish at al-Shifa? They siezed a few dozen guns and found a room with a calender? Dismantled tunnel networks that looked unused and had no significant military capability and link to the significant tunnels that Hamas are using? This was worth the life of 2 premature babies? And thousands other who need al-Shifa operating at its full capability.

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Super19 said:

Israel is denying the right of willing journalists to enter Gaza to do their jobs to document and investigate. Major red flag.

 

You also haven't seen the US intellegence re: al-Shifa. It's not released. Again, you're banking on that the USA is right. 2 premature babies in incubators died as a direct result of the actions taken by the IDF. 

 

Let's just say you end up being right. How effective was Israel's military operation in al-Shifa at eliminating Hamas? Like what did the IDF accomplish at al-Shifa? They siezed a few dozen guns and found a room with a calender? Dismantled tunnel networks that looked unused and had no significant military capability and link to the significant tunnels that Hamas are using? This was worth the life of 2 premature babies? And thousands other who need al-Shifa operating at its full capability.

You keep trying to connect the Israelis with killing babies. IMHAO any tragedy happening in Gaza is the fault of Hamas. They shouldn’t hide behind women, children, the old, and those in hospitals. Hamas behave like thrives and cowards (they are terrorists) and the consequences of their cowardly behaviour is the people of Gaza suffer. 

[Super19]

 

[Super19]

7 hours ago, Alflives said:

You keep trying to connect the Israelis with killing babies. IMHAO any tragedy happening in Gaza is the fault of Hamas. They shouldn’t hide behind women, children, the old, and those in hospitals. Hamas behave like thrives and cowards (they are terrorists) and the consequences of their cowardly behaviour is the people of Gaza suffer. 

I know you love the IDF and the job they are doing so much that it's blinded your humanity.

[RomanPer]

2 hours ago, Super19 said:

 

 

Lol, all South African nationals. How exactly is South Africa affected by what’s happening in Gaza? Did they resolve their own child pregnancy problems, with 25% of girls getting pregnant before the age of 20 and 88,000 school age girls current pregnant? Or did they resolve one of the highest rape rate in the world? Or perhaps they found a solution to AIDS crisis, with 25% of death in the country attributed to the disease that became quite manageable in the rest of the world? They should clean their own house before sticking their noses into someone else’s business.

[Super19]

2 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

Lol, all South African nationals. How exactly is South Africa affected by what’s happening in Gaza? Did they resolve their own child pregnancy problems, with 25% of girls getting pregnant before the age of 20 and 88,000 school age girls current pregnant? Or did they resolve one of the highest rape rate in the world? Or perhaps they found a solution to AIDS crisis, with 25% of death in the country attributed to the disease that became quite manageable in the rest of the world? They should clean their own house before sticking their noses into someone else’s business.

There's nothing wrong with what South Africa is doing by taking Israel to the Hague. Infact it's commendable. If you believed a genocide was happening you wouldn't have said what you just said.