Hamas attacking Israel

[Ilunga]

2 hours ago, Sharpshooter said:

Silencing yourself isn’t warranted, desired by most of us, nor required. 

Be you Hip. Do you. 
 

I appreciate you and always have over the years/decades. 
 

You’re a passionate person and that passion for calling a spade a   is always a net benefit here. 
 

Carry on bud. 

 

 

What's the point mate.

I get where Hippy is coming from.

Apart from Super 19,

this is a one sided discussion. 

I really admire his courage to stand up against the crowd in the name of his beliefs.

 

Everyone involved has denounced Hamas and the October the 7th attacks, however nobody will discuss some of the root causes, the illegal settlements and the fact that not only the international community, but many Isrealis themselves state that Isreal practices arpartheid on the Palestinian people. 

In fact people have been finding ways to defend the illegal settlements.

 

 

We are told that Isreal is a just democracy.

What sort of just democracy locks up kids who don't want to fight ?

Where they are threatened with murder and rape. 

 

 

https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20240106-israel-s-refuseniks-i-will-never-justify-what-israel-is-doing-in-gaza 

 

" The 7th of October changed nothing in either direction she said, it should have been expected, because when you put people under extreme violence, extreme violence will rise back at you " 

 

" Since the war started and the horrible violence that has been enacted on the Gazans in Gaza and the destruction of the whole place, it made me surer that we must fight for a different option and that this will never solve anything. And that I have to resist this cycle of bloodshed or it will never end " 

 

" Isreals attempts to eradicate Hamas are only making Hamas stronger, because if you offer no alternative to the Palestinians and if they think that it's the only language Isreal knows how to speak and...their only chance at freedom...then, yes, of course they will join Hamas and try violent resistance, Orr said " 

 

This is the young woman who has been threatened with murder and rape.

Her words make perfect sense to me.

My life experiences back them up. 

 

Doesn't this make sense to you ?

 

Personally I would be extremely proud of her myself if I was her dad.

Her courage to stand up for her beliefs, that I share, is far greater than any of the people who are killing each other on both sides of this conflict. 

I wish I was as smart as her at her age.

 

More examples of kids who have refused to fight 

 

https://observers.france24.com/en/middle-east/20221121-meet-israel-s-teenage-refuseniks-who-refuse-to-enlist-in-the-army

 

What's more powerful brother, guns, or words/ ideas ?

 

The use of guns will continue this circle of hatred, the use of words/ideas has the chance to stop it.

 

[Alflives]

12 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

What's the point mate.

I get where Hippy is coming from.

Apart from Super 19,

this is a one sided discussion. 

I really admire his courage to stand up against the crowd in the name of his beliefs.

 

Everyone involved has denounced Hamas and the October the 7th attacks, however nobody will discuss some of the root causes, the illegal settlements and the fact that not only the international community, but many Isrealis themselves state that Isreal practices arpartheid on the Palestinian people. 

In fact people have been finding ways to defend the illegal settlements.

 

 

We are told that Isreal is a just democracy.

What sort of just democracy locks up kids who don't want to fight ?

Where they are threatened with murder and rape. 

 

 

https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20240106-israel-s-refuseniks-i-will-never-justify-what-israel-is-doing-in-gaza 

 

" The 7th of October changed nothing in either direction she said, it should have been expected, because when you put people under extreme violence, extreme violence will rise back at you " 

 

" Since the war started and the horrible violence that has been enacted on the Gazans in Gaza and the destruction of the whole place, it made me surer that we must fight for a different option and that this will never solve anything. And that I have to resist this cycle of bloodshed or it will never end " 

 

" Isreals attempts to eradicate Hamas are only making Hamas stronger, because if you offer no alternative to the Palestinians and if they think that it's the only language Isreal knows how to speak and...their only chance at freedom...then, yes, of course they will join Hamas and try violent resistance, Orr said " 

 

This is the young woman who has been threatened with murder and rape.

Her words make perfect sense to me.

My life experiences back them up. 

 

Doesn't this make sense to you ?

 

Personally I would be extremely proud of her myself if I was her dad.

Her courage to stand up for her beliefs, that I share, is far greater than any of the people who are killing each other on both sides of this conflict. 

I wish I was as smart as her at her age.

 

More examples of kids who have refused to fight 

 

https://observers.france24.com/en/middle-east/20221121-meet-israel-s-teenage-refuseniks-who-refuse-to-enlist-in-the-army

 

What's more powerful brother, guns, or words/ ideas ?

 

The use of guns will continue this circle of hatred, the use of words/ideas has the chance to stop it.

 

It would be wonderful if all humans were caring and understanding empathetic people. Sadly we are not, and we aren’t close. IMHAO if Israel was not 100% for protecting themselves, they would not exist. Hamas is not a group that is caring, understanding, and empathetic. These are terrorists. They would run over (toss off roofs and behead) kind people who will not follow their beliefs. 
IMHAO the IDF are doing the free world a service by eliminating Hamas. 

[Bob Long]

13 minutes ago, Alflives said:

It would be wonderful if all humans were caring and understanding empathetic people. Sadly we are not, and we aren’t close. IMHAO if Israel was not 100% for protecting themselves, they would not exist. Hamas is not a group that is caring, understanding, and empathetic. These are terrorists. They would run over (toss off roofs and behead) kind people who will not follow their beliefs. 
IMHAO the IDF are doing the free world a service by eliminating Hamas. 

 

We can always get lost in the weeds of who did what when, but the reality is as you put it Alf, there would be no Israel if many had their wish.

[Ilunga]

Just now, Alflives said:

It would be wonderful if all humans were caring and understanding empathetic people. Sadly we are not, and we aren’t close. IMHAO if Israel was not 100% for protecting themselves, they would not exist. Hamas is not a group that is caring, understanding, and empathetic. These are terrorists. They would run over (toss off roofs and behead) kind people who will not follow their beliefs. 
IMHAO the IDF are doing the free world a service by eliminating Hamas. 

 

With respect, you don't deal with any of the points I made in that post.

 

What the IDF is doing is exactly what the young girl stated, increasing support for Hamas, which is what they want.

You are correct, stating in previous posts, that Hamas doesn't give 2 fucks about the Palestinian people, however the IDF are playing into their hands.

Support for Hamas has dramatically increased since the attacks on Gaza.

 

Also most of the civilised world is now starting to condemn what the IDF are doing in Gaza.

 

This was 2 months ago 

 

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/02/politics/biden-administration-warning-israel-gaza-civilians/index.html

 

How many innocent civilians should die Alf ?

Women, children ?

Before the cost becomes to great ?

 

There are supposedly 25,000 odd Hamas fighters, this killing has been going on 3 months and there is speculation it could go on for another year. 

 

 

Apart from the Human cost Gaza is being destroyed.

You keep claiming that Gaza will be rebuilt, I replied to this with a comprehensive post why this is unlikely to happen. 

 

As I stated nobody wants to deal with the root causes of this conflict. 

 

I see no difference between this conflict, and the feuds the highland clans used perpetuate. 

 

Actually I can see the similarity between the Campells and Hamas.

[Alflives]

4 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

With respect, you don't deal with any of the points I made in that post.

 

What the IDF is doing is exactly what the young girl stated, increasing support for Hamas, which is what they want.

You are correct, stating in previous posts, that Hamas doesn't give 2 fucks about the Palestinian people, however the IDF are playing into their hands.

Support for Hamas has dramatically increased since the attacks on Gaza.

 

Also most of the civilised world is now starting to condemn what the IDF are doing in Gaza.

 

This was 2 months ago 

 

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/02/politics/biden-administration-warning-israel-gaza-civilians/index.html

 

How many innocent civilians should die Alf ?

Women, children ?

Before the cost becomes to great ?

 

There are supposedly 25,000 odd Hamas fighters, this killing has been going on 3 months and there is speculation it could go on for another year. 

 

 

Apart from the Human cost Gaza is being destroyed.

You keep claiming that Gaza will be rebuilt, I replied to this with a comprehensive post why this is unlikely to happen. 

 

As I stated nobody wants to deal with the root causes of this conflict. 

 

I see no difference between this conflict, and the feuds the highland clans used perpetuate. 

 

Actually I can see the similarity between the Campells and Hamas.

We can discuss the “root causes” of this conflict until the cows come home. We can talk about how there would be peace if other people only “thought like we do”. 
IMHAO Hamas would kill people who think like this. They would expect us to follow their laws or die. (It’s actually written in their doctrine.) They hate us. They want a world caliphate under their laws and rule, with those who disagree dead. These are not people who we should ever side with. These people are evil. They need to be eliminated. 

[Ilunga]

20 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

We can always get lost in the weeds of who did what when, but the reality is as you put it Alf, there would be no Israel if many had their wish.

 

 

There would be no independent state of Palestine if many Isrealis had their wish 

 

Here are the thoughts of an Isreali/ Jewish emeritus professor of international relations at Oxford University.

Some one who is far more well versed in international relations than any of us posters on a hockey forum 

 

" Land grabbing and peace making don't go together and by constantly expanding settlements, Isreal has shown that it prefers land to peace "

 

https://thewire.in/world/full-text-israel-palestine-karan-thapar-avi-shlaim 

 

No getting lost in those weeds, this is an accurate/ truthful account of what has led us to the point we are at now.

 

To condense all that Avi states us that Isreal consistently chooses to ( take/ steal ) land over peace. 

 

I present source after Isreali source, that Isreal has caused, by its actions, this never ending conflict.

Of course the Palestinians exacerbate this by their use of violence which I totally condemn.

 

 

 

[Ilunga]

24 minutes ago, Alflives said:

We can discuss the “root causes” of this conflict until the cows come home. We can talk about how there would be peace if other people only “thought like we do”. 
IMHAO Hamas would kill people who think like this. They would expect us to follow their laws or die. (It’s actually written in their doctrine.) They hate us. They want a world caliphate under their laws and rule, with those who disagree dead. These are not people who we should ever side with. These people are evil. They need to be eliminated. 

 

Until those root causes are dealt with by the Isrealis and the Palestinians there will be no end to this conflict full stop.

 

You haven't answered my question, how many innocent people have to die before the cost is to great ?

How much destruction of property, peoples homes ? 

 

Even if Hamas is removed from the equation who/ what is going to replace them ?

The IDF's actions are breeding new generations of people who will feel hate towards the Isreali people. 

 

People are stating this is like Isreals 9/11.

Well it's just like that in the sense that the people who are paying the price for these acts of terror, aren't the people who committed them.

[Super19]

4 hours ago, Alflives said:

We can discuss the “root causes” of this conflict until the cows come home. We can talk about how there would be peace if other people only “thought like we do”. 
IMHAO Hamas would kill people who think like this. They would expect us to follow their laws or die. (It’s actually written in their doctrine.) They hate us. They want a world caliphate under their laws and rule, with those who disagree dead. These are not people who we should ever side with. These people are evil. They need to be eliminated. 

What's your HAO of this?

 

"The founder of Hamas, Sheikh Ahmed Ismail Hassan Yassin, said:

 

"We don't hate Jews and fight them because they are Jews.

 

Jews are people of a religion, and we are people of a religion.

 

We love all people of different religions.

 

My brother even if he is my brother and he is a Muslim,

 

If he steals my house and kicks me out, I will resist him.""

[Canuck Surfer]

 

 

Excerpt from Jewish Radicals by Tony Michels; Pogroms in Palestine 1929 : Chapter 29

 

The pogroms against Jews in Palestine have taken on the character of a bloody catastrophe. Murderous attacks by Arabs against Jews have occurred several times in recent years. The hateful mood, which has recently been incited against Jews in Palestine, is also known. But nobody had imag-ined that such a fire of blood and hatred would break out in the Land of Israel. Nobody had imagined that such would be possible under English rule and in a land where the Jewish population consists entirely of a creative, con-structive element.It will still take time for all the facts behind the catastrophe to be thoroughly investigated and determined.

 

The most important questions for everyone who reads about the bloody events are these: Where did the Arabs get their weapons? Who provided them with ammunition? It is clear that they were organized, carefully organized. This was not a sudden, mass outbreak. In certain cases the pogromists used cunning means, “strategic” means, to be able to more easily break into Jewish neighborhoods. There were people who thought through all of this, carried out all of this; people who provided the weapons; people who led the attacks; people who worked out strategy.The political situation in Palestine and the general politics around Pales-tine is so muddled that it is easy for each side to interpret the facts as they suit him. Opponents of a Jewish Palestine find justification for the Arab pogrom-ists in the fact that Jews held a demonstration by the Western Wall

[Canuck Surfer]

9 hours ago, Ilunga said:

Everyone involved has denounced Hamas and the October the 7th attacks, however nobody will discuss some of the root causes, the illegal settlements and the fact that not only the international community, but many Isrealis themselves state that Isreal practices arpartheid on the Palestinian people. 

In fact people have been finding ways to defend the illegal settlements.

 

Sorry; the root causes go back, obviously centuries & thousands of years. But specifically last century. The first 50 years, since WWI an almost mirror image of the last 50 years.

 

In 1895 All of Palestine, ruled by Hamid as Sultan, authoritarian leader of the Ottoman Empire, had a population of about 1 Million. 2/3rds Turkish.  They ruled over 4 centuries. Neither Jews nor todays Palestinians were significant populations. Although both there, and owning 'history?' Virtually none of the Palestinians, nor Jews were indigenous, a few one or three generation old in the context of the hundred years preceding 1948. 

 

As the Ottoman Empire collapsed & British Palestine emerged? Population tripled between 1905 and 1935, even as most Ottoman's left. Bedouin, Palestinian, Jews & Jewish Zionists, Syrian and Jordanian peoples ALL re-emerged. Sunni Arab's became the majority population sometime during the 20's. Some as trades people, or workers, business people as new trading routes and partners were opened by the British.  Most as those who would pilgrimage to ancestral grounds back in to this region when 20,000,000 were displaced in WWI.

 

British Palestine had about 1.5 or 1.8 Million people in the late 30's. Bear in mind this includes Jordan, parts of Syria, todays Israel, parts of Lebanon. Over 1/2 those Arab Sunni, including Palestinians, but also Bedouin, Syrian, Egyptian, N African and Yemeni. The next largest group Jews, about 450,000 & Christians, often Orthodox. Notably most groups were in pockets, including Jewish people being an over 50% majority of Jerusalem & other 'strongholds?'

 

My last post above noted an article from 1929 that could have been last week? Pogroms where Jews were slaughtered, beaten displaced & suffered rampant violence. In a mirror image of todays ''Apartheid'' crimes. Majority Sunni Muslim Settlers, evicted Jews, land and business owners near the West Wall & West Bank for full control of the Al Aqsa mosque? In spite of not having religious, or the right to own land privileges under Ottoman rule just 30 years earlier. For 400 years? Full controls, this is ours? Pogroms by the majority 'Palestinians' against Jews and any other groups in the way.  People have short memories, or do not read history?

 

Here is the thing for context @Ilunga, @RomanPer @Super19.  Interwar the world was full of displaced peoples. Ethnic groups who survived Austro-Hungarian, Russian, German or Ottoman empires as oppressed peoples. Forged cultural nationalistic and very militants groups. Including Zionists, Palestinians, the OUNB in Ukraine, Romani and far from limited to European & Middle Eastern groups. Arabs, groups back from war in Africa, the Caucasus. Groups binded by their ethnicity, culture & religion. Free from the last centuries oppressors fought, made alliances & slaughtered competing cultures for a home. Perhaps where they once lived, but simply needing a home.

 

The region's population tripled again between 1939 & 1948; Go figure? 30 to 45,000,000 more people were displaced. Zionists, Palestinians and many surrounding ethnic groups gathered then battled for control in what is now Israel, politically. Then on the battlefield. When Israel was declared a nation in 1948.  All these groups had converged. First 'allied' Arabic groups helped evict Palestinians as the Israeli state was formed by decree during the Nakba.  Roman had a post on the old CDC?  About Palestinians leaving on their own merit, to paraphrase? Which was code for warlord and religious' leaders amongst Palestinians, including the King of Jordan & Jordanian army, were bought out, bribed, made treaties with the withdrawing British, the UN, Zionists. Helped move the 750,000 Palestinians. Many expecting to be back in days or weeks... 

 

Not that the should have been kicked out. Nor their neighbors turned against them. I again argue some historic reparation of lost wealth. Worse, many of their Arab brotherhood who had sold them out. Just accumulated en-masse to go to war with Israel anyway. Jordan, Egypt, Syria, the Saudi Kingdom, Persian & Iraqi warlords, more? All attacked Israel within weeks. Creating Israel's war of independence.

 

I guarantee you, after many helped displace Palestinians for Israel? They were just ushering out the British & Palestinians, to strategically outnumbered Jews. Have their crack at the holy land of Jerusalem, its Mediterranean ports, the fertile valleys from the river to the sea? For themselves. 

 

Most of these same groups are still lead by warlords & authoritarian Kings. Would slaughter Hamas or Jews to have the West Wall. Or Mecca, Baghdad, Mogadishu, the Gulf of Oman, Gulf of Aden or Red Sea.  Any trade or shipping route, source of oil, hundreds of years ago slaves & ivory.

 

I don't believe the root source is anti-semitism? Or the crimes, which they are, by Israel.  

 

The root source is the strategic value of the holy land. Wanted by many corrupt leaders and people.  Israel is strong, but not that strong at all in a historical context.

 

So these militant groups, led by corrupt leaders just keep forming. Jews are simply the current guards at the front of the bank!

 

That is the root cause.

 

 

[Bob Long]

8 hours ago, Super19 said:

What's your HAO of this?

 

"The founder of Hamas, Sheikh Ahmed Ismail Hassan Yassin, said:

 

"We don't hate Jews and fight them because they are Jews.

 

Jews are people of a religion, and we are people of a religion.

 

We love all people of different religions.

 

My brother even if he is my brother and he is a Muslim,

 

If he steals my house and kicks me out, I will resist him.""

 

I can imagine the bomber that just killed 80 people in Iran said something similar. 

[Super19]

1 minute ago, Bob Long said:

 

I can imagine the bomber that just killed 80 people in Iran said something similar. 

? Surely you read the news a bit past the headline... Hamas didn't do that suicide bombing nor did Hamas take responsibility for it.

[Bob Long]

15 minutes ago, Super19 said:

? Surely you read the news a bit past the headline... Hamas didn't do that suicide bombing nor did Hamas take responsibility for it.

 

Similar mentality with terrorist groups tho.

[Ilunga]

11 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Sorry; the root causes go back, obviously centuries & thousands of years. But specifically last century. The first 50 years, since WWI an almost mirror image of the last 50 years.

 

In 1895 All of Palestine, ruled by Hamid as Sultan, authoritarian leader of the Ottoman Empire, had a population of about 1 Million. 2/3rds Turkish.  They ruled over 4 centuries. Neither Jews nor todays Palestinians were significant populations. Although both there, and owning 'history?' Virtually none of the Palestinians, nor Jews were indigenous, a few one or three generation old in the context of the hundred years preceding 1948. 

 

As the Ottoman Empire collapsed & British Palestine emerged? Population tripled between 1905 and 1935, even as most Ottoman's left. Bedouin, Palestinian, Jews & Jewish Zionists, Syrian and Jordanian peoples ALL re-emerged. Sunni Arab's became the majority population sometime during the 20's. Some as trades people, or workers, business people as new trading routes and partners were opened by the British.  Most as those who would pilgrimage to ancestral grounds back in to this region when 20,000,000 were displaced in WWI.

 

British Palestine had about 1.5 or 1.8 Million people in the late 30's. Bear in mind this includes Jordan, parts of Syria, todays Israel, parts of Lebanon. Over 1/2 those Arab Sunni, including Palestinians, but also Bedouin, Syrian, Egyptian, N African and Yemeni. The next largest group Jews, about 450,000 & Christians, often Orthodox. Notably most groups were in pockets, including Jewish people being an over 50% majority of Jerusalem & other 'strongholds?'

 

My last post above noted an article from 1929 that could have been last week? Pogroms where Jews were slaughtered, beaten displaced & suffered rampant violence. In a mirror image of todays ''Apartheid'' crimes. Majority Sunni Muslim Settlers, evicted Jews, land and business owners near the West Wall & West Bank for full control of the Al Aqsa mosque? In spite of not having religious, or the right to own land privileges under Ottoman rule just 30 years earlier. For 400 years? Full controls, this is ours? Pogroms by the majority 'Palestinians' against Jews and any other groups in the way.  People have short memories, or do not read history?

 

Here is the thing for context @Ilunga, @RomanPer @Super19.  Interwar the world was full of displaced peoples. Ethnic groups who survived Austro-Hungarian, Russian, German or Ottoman empires as oppressed peoples. Forged cultural nationalistic and very militants groups. Including Zionists, Palestinians, the OUNB in Ukraine, Romani and far from limited to European & Middle Eastern groups. Arabs, groups back from war in Africa, the Caucasus. Groups binded by their ethnicity, culture & religion. Free from the last centuries oppressors fought, made alliances & slaughtered competing cultures for a home. Perhaps where they once lived, but simply needing a home.

 

The region's population tripled again between 1939 & 1948; Go figure? 30 to 45,000,000 more people were displaced. Zionists, Palestinians and many surrounding ethnic groups gathered then battled for control in what is now Israel, politically. Then on the battlefield. When Israel was declared a nation in 1948.  All these groups had converged. First 'allied' Arabic groups helped evict Palestinians as the Israeli state was formed by decree during the Nakba.  Roman had a post on the old CDC?  About Palestinians leaving on their own merit, to paraphrase? Which was code for warlord and religious' leaders amongst Palestinians, including the King of Jordan & Jordanian army, were bought out, bribed, made treaties with the withdrawing British, the UN, Zionists. Helped move the 750,000 Palestinians. Many expecting to be back in days or weeks... 

 

Not that the should have been kicked out. Nor their neighbors turned against them. I again argue some historic reparation of lost wealth. Worse, many of their Arab brotherhood who had sold them out. Just accumulated en-masse to go to war with Israel anyway. Jordan, Egypt, Syria, the Saudi Kingdom, Persian & Iraqi warlords, more? All attacked Israel within weeks. Creating Israel's war of independence.

 

I guarantee you, after many helped displace Palestinians for Israel? They were just ushering out the British & Palestinians, to strategically outnumbered Jews. Have their crack at the holy land of Jerusalem, its Mediterranean ports, the fertile valleys from the river to the sea? For themselves. 

 

Most of these same groups are still lead by warlords & authoritarian Kings. Would slaughter Hamas or Jews to have the West Wall. Or Mecca, Baghdad, Mogadishu, the Gulf of Oman, Gulf of Aden or Red Sea.  Any trade or shipping route, source of oil, hundreds of years ago slaves & ivory.

 

I don't believe the root source is anti-semitism? Or the crimes, which they are, by Israel.  

 

The root source is the strategic value of the holy land. Wanted by many corrupt leaders and people.  Israel is strong, but not that strong at all in a historical context.

 

So these militant groups, led by corrupt leaders just keep forming. Jews are simply the current guards at the front of the bank!

 

That is the root cause.

 

 

 

" The bride is beautiful but she is already married "

[Ilunga]

@Canuck Surfer

 

And further this conflict can't be traced back as far as you are claiming. 

 

The guy that had a vision for a Jewish state was a person from Vienna, Theodore Herzl, his/ the Zionist slogan was, a country without a people for a people without a country. 

Remind you of something ?

 

The got some money together sent a couple of Rabbis over.

They came to the conclusion I stated in reply to your post, 

" The bride is beautiful but she is already married " 

There were already people living there.

 

Now let's pull apart your assessment of the Arab tribes, you know the tribes the British used in WW1 and then betrayed after the war.

Colonial powers drawing up borders without taking into account tribal associations. 

I suggest you read the Seven Pillars of Wisdom.

Written by a englishman that lived and fought with the Arabian tribes.

 

Then after WW2 the west has continually manipulated/interfered with the Arabian states affairs in regards to wanting their oil.

Right up until the invasion of Iraq, which was the central reason they invaded that country.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2013/03/19/opinion/iraq-war-oil-juhasz/index.html 

 

So who has been fucking with who ?

 

Now let's pull apart your claim that these Arab groups would slaughter the Jews, are these the same groups that have been making peace with Isreal for the last few decades ?

 

The Jews/ Isrealis are the current guards ?

 

Have any Arab tribes ever invaded/ interfered with other countries out of their region since their formation ?

Say like us, when we illegally invaded Iraq ? 

 

The state of Israel did not exist before 1848.

The idea for the state of Israel did not exist 50 odd years before that. 

The conflict between these 2 groups of people did not exist before 1948.

 

Respectfully do you claim to know more that an Jewish Oxford emeritus professor of international relations ?

I don't even need him to tell me the obvious, Isreal prefers taking/ stealing land instead of peace. 

 

Land grabs and peace don't go together. 

 

Do you agree with the international community and many Isrealis themselves when they state that Isreal practices arpartheid on the Palestinian people ?

That at the very least, they live under some form of oppression, whatever you want to name it.

 

Personally I only need to use my ability to think critically to come to this conclusion. 

 

These are the root causes of this conflict between these 2 groups of people that share a genetic heritage. 

[Gnarcore]

 

[Optimist Prime]

I will wait and see what the verdict is. I believe I am educated on the middle east, and I know I have first hand experience there, but I can honestly say I don't know enough to make an accurate judgement. On my one hand is remembering the half a million to 800 thousand people killed in the Rwandan Genocide that affected so many Canadian Forces personell, including our General on the ground Romeo Dallaire. Which makes roughly 18k civilians killed in a war their leaders started and then hid behind them during seem to me to be maybe iffy. I can't say it is not one though, so I will prefer to wait and see what the authorities over such matters have decided. I think that is the best position to take for my level of knowledge on the conflict. I also suspect I have a higher level of understanding than a lot of social media commenters, and so I hope they too wait to see what comes of the case. I certainly wish that no civilians were killed in Gaza, or anywhere else on earth, but I live in reality, not fantasy, unless you count fantasy hockey. 

[Yoshiyoshi]

4 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

I will wait and see what the verdict is. I believe I am educated on the middle east, and I know I have first hand experience there, but I can honestly say I don't know enough to make an accurate judgement. On my one hand is remembering the half a million to 800 thousand people killed in the Rwandan Genocide that affected so many Canadian Forces personell, including our General on the ground Romeo Dallaire. Which makes roughly 18k civilians killed in a war their leaders started and then hid behind them during seem to me to be maybe iffy. I can't say it is not one though, so I will prefer to wait and see what the authorities over such matters have decided. I think that is the best position to take for my level of knowledge on the conflict. I also suspect I have a higher level of understanding than a lot of social media commenters, and so I hope they too wait to see what comes of the case. I certainly wish that no civilians were killed in Gaza, or anywhere else on earth, but I live in reality, not fantasy, unless you count fantasy hockey. 

should be closer to 10k if the 9k+ hamas kills from IDF are accurate

[RomanPer]

7 hours ago, Gnarcore said:

 

 

Frances Boyle served as a counsel to PLO between 1987 and 1989. He was born in the US but considers himself Irish and not White North American. These first fact makes it pretty clear where he stands, so not surprising that he would comment this way. The second fact just tells me that he’s an idiot.

[Wall of Wonder]

Seems like everyone is forgetting that Hamas started this whole thing.  sigh. 

[Spur1]

On 1/7/2024 at 7:08 PM, Ilunga said:

 

What's the point mate.

I get where Hippy is coming from.

Apart from Super 19,

this is a one sided discussion. 

I really admire his courage to stand up against the crowd in the name of his beliefs.

 

Everyone involved has denounced Hamas and the October the 7th attacks, however nobody will discuss some of the root causes, the illegal settlements and the fact that not only the international community, but many Isrealis themselves state that Isreal practices arpartheid on the Palestinian people. 

In fact people have been finding ways to defend the illegal settlements.

 

 

We are told that Isreal is a just democracy.

What sort of just democracy locks up kids who don't want to fight ?

Where they are threatened with murder and rape. 

 

 

https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20240106-israel-s-refuseniks-i-will-never-justify-what-israel-is-doing-in-gaza 

 

" The 7th of October changed nothing in either direction she said, it should have been expected, because when you put people under extreme violence, extreme violence will rise back at you " 

 

" Since the war started and the horrible violence that has been enacted on the Gazans in Gaza and the destruction of the whole place, it made me surer that we must fight for a different option and that this will never solve anything. And that I have to resist this cycle of bloodshed or it will never end " 

 

" Isreals attempts to eradicate Hamas are only making Hamas stronger, because if you offer no alternative to the Palestinians and if they think that it's the only language Isreal knows how to speak and...their only chance at freedom...then, yes, of course they will join Hamas and try violent resistance, Orr said " 

 

This is the young woman who has been threatened with murder and rape.

Her words make perfect sense to me.

My life experiences back them up. 

 

Doesn't this make sense to you ?

 

Personally I would be extremely proud of her myself if I was her dad.

Her courage to stand up for her beliefs, that I share, is far greater than any of the people who are killing each other on both sides of this conflict. 

I wish I was as smart as her at her age.

 

More examples of kids who have refused to fight 

 

https://observers.france24.com/en/middle-east/20221121-meet-israel-s-teenage-refuseniks-who-refuse-to-enlist-in-the-army

 

What's more powerful brother, guns, or words/ ideas ?

 

The use of guns will continue this circle of hatred, the use of words/ideas has the chance to stop it.

 

The only thing that can stop and heal this is Love. Make love not war. 

[Ilunga]

27 minutes ago, Spur1 said:

The only thing that can stop and heal this is Love. Make love not war. 

 

https://www.standing-together.org/english

 

 

 

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

On 1/9/2024 at 12:34 PM, Ilunga said:

 

Have any Arab tribes ever invaded/ interfered with other countries out of their region since their formation ?

 

You mean like they all attacked Israel in 1948? 

 

In modern times most have enough trouble grabbing and holding power.  350,000 civilians died in the Syrian civil war in 6 or 7 months less than 10 years ago.  Including Palestinians? 25,000 plus Palestinians were killed  by Jordanians,b others expelled via a Pakistani general during Black September in the 1970's.  Yemen has millions of dead, Sudan. There has been internal war in Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Somalia, Mogadishu. Kuwait was attacked, Saddam Hussein's Iraq at war with Iran. Nearly ten times as many Kurds have been displaced in and from Turkey, also Iraq, Syria, Azerbaijan in the last 25 years than was displaced in Palestine 1948. 1.5 Million Afghani's are being expelled from Pakistan.  

 

Coup's and civil war in Muslim countries run by warlords, where there are not 'Kingdoms,' autocrats is an overwhelming majority. In West Sudan, this September, non indigenous tribes and militant factions rounded up & mass murdered locals. We can split hairs regarding this being Arab; the fighters are backed by Qatar, Turkey, Iran, Hamas, the Russian Wagner group. There has been fighting in Eritrea. Throughout Central Africa. Getting back to Israel, the Middle East is a cauldron of factions vying for power. Including those interfering in Israel, Lebanon, Syria, all the surrounding states.   

 

Those competing for power in Yemen are attacking civil ships. 

[Canuck Surfer]

On 1/9/2024 at 12:34 PM, Ilunga said:

There were already people living there.

 

75% of the people living in Palestine, 6 or 7% Jewish, double that Palestinian,at the turn of the 19th century were Ottomans. Almost none were there by WWII.   

 

The area was re populated as the Ottoman Empire declined, then during British control through to the end of WWII. Its borders re-written.    

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

You mean like they all attacked Israel in 1948? 

 

In modern times most have enough trouble grabbing and holding power.  350,000 civilians died in the Syrian civil war in 6 or 7 months less than 10 years ago.  Including Palestinians? 25,000 plus Palestinians were killed  by Jordanians,b others expelled via a Pakistani general during Black September in the 1970's.  Yemen has millions of dead, Sudan. There has been internal war in Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Somalia, Mogadishu. Kuwait was attacked, Saddam Hussein's Iraq at war with Iran. Nearly ten times as many Kurds have been displaced in and from Turkey, also Iraq, Syria, Azerbaijan in the last 25 years than was displaced in Palestine 1948. 1.5 Million Afghani's are being expelled from Pakistan.  

 

Coup's and civil war in Muslim countries run by warlords, where there are not 'Kingdoms,' autocrats is an overwhelming majority. In West Sudan, this September, non indigenous tribes and militant factions rounded up & mass murdered locals. We can split hairs regarding this being Arab; the fighters are backed by Qatar, Turkey, Iran, Hamas, the Russian Wagner group. There has been fighting in Eritrea. Throughout Central Africa. Getting  back to Israel, the Middle East is a cauldron of factions vying for power. Including those interfering in Israel, Lebanon, Syria, all the surrounding states.   

 

Those competing for power in Yemen are attacking civil ships. 

 

I stated 

" Out of their region "

meaning the middle east. 

Isreal is part of the middle east. 

 

Again unlike western nations, especially the US, the Arabian states don't have a history of illegally invading/ interfering with the politics of other nations in many other parts of the world including the middle east.

 

What has the rest of your post have to do with the history of the conflict between the Isreali and Palestinians, since the idea for a Zionist/ Isreali state, or the formation of the state of Israel ?