Ilunga Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 1 hour ago, Canuck Surfer said: 75% of the people living in Palestine, 6 or 7% Jewish, double that Palestinian,at the turn of the 19th century were Ottomans. Almost none were there by WWII. The area was re populated as the Ottoman Empire declined, then during British control through to the end of WWII. Its borders re-written. So you agree with the Zionist slogan ? A country without people, for a people without a country ? When referring to Palestine ? When Herzl had the idea for a Zionist state ? As those 2 rabbis that the Zionists sent to Palestine stated " The bride is beautiful, but she is already married " This was their way of saying to Herzl that there were already people living there. It wasn't a country without people as he and his fellow Zionists were claiming. Herzl wasn't even fully attached to the idea of Zionist state in Palestine to start with, he also wrote a lot about South America, there were Jewish agricultural colonies there. One of his articles was titled, Palestine or Argentina ? I can't find the date those rabbis were sent to Palestine, Herzl died in 1904 so it had to be before then, The demographics of Palestine in 1890, closet year I could find, 43,000 Jews, 57,000 Christians and 432,000 Muslims. And yes the borders were rewritten by the Colonial powers, Britian and France, an agreement I have mentioned many times on both boards, the Sykes - Picot. Again western powers screwing over people, in this case the Arabian tribes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 18 minutes ago, Ilunga said: I stated " Out of their region " meaning the middle east. Isreal is part of the middle east. Again unlike western nations, especially the US, the Arabian states don't have a history of illegally invading/ interfering with the politics of other nations in many other parts of the world including the middle east. What has the rest of your post have to do with the history of the conflict between the Isreali and Palestinians, since the idea for a Zionist/ Isreali state, or the formation of the state of Israel ? The Zionist idea surfaced about the turn of the century. Most of the Jews & Palestinians in 1920 & 1940 were expats, repatriated to Palestine. Britain ''ruled'' Palestine, the Ottomans prior. Sure Zionists came to the region to create a home in what was once an area ancestral to them. So did Palestinians & Jordanians. They had not been living here, in some cases en masse for centuries; it was militarily taken over by the Turkish. Those who did live there lived, primarily, as slaves or traders. Without rights to own land or freedom of religion. All groups looked to establish themselves as the Ottoman Empire disappeared. Israel did not steal Palestine, from Palestinians. Jordan, for example was granted, I apologize as I don't have a better word than granted, some autonomous control in 1920. Which became Jordan. The UN & Britain Israel in 1948. Many Palestinians did lose farms and land acquired in the time after the Ottomans left? I have argued for historical reparations. It does not mean those that came back to the region had more claim, say, to Jerusalem than Jews did. Jerusalem was an area which held Jewish majority population. Borders formed in the region for Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia all around these times. Many of the Jews that came to these areas' were expelled by those countries majorities, also Morocco, Yemen, Iran. People were being displaced, finding new homes, new borders popped up all over Europe, the Middle East. Handy giving some cultures the right of expulsion, but condemning Israel for it? Handy that people forget, as cultures repatriated the region; they claimed ownership of religious sites? Jews were kept from praying at the West Wall, and Jews regularly were subjected to Pogroms, violent marches attacks on businesses and religious sites In the 1920's and 1930's. These were groups fighting for this territory, politically & physically before the Israeli state was created. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 2 minutes ago, Ilunga said: 432,000 Muslims Same figures I read; but 75% Ottoman. Turkey is a Muslim country. ie Just over 100,000 Palestinian is how I read. A bit more than the combination of Jews & Christians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said: The Zionist idea surfaced about the turn of the century. Most of the Jews & Palestinians in 1920 & 1940 were expats, repatriated to Palestine. Britain ''ruled'' Palestine, the Ottomans prior. Sure Zionists came to the region to create a home in what was once an area ancestral to them. So did Palestinians & Jordanians. They had not been living here, in some cases en masse for centuries; it was militarily taken over by the Turkish. Those who did live there lived, primarily, as slaves or traders. Without rights to own land or freedom of religion. All groups looked to establish themselves as the Ottoman Empire disappeared. Israel did not steal Palestine, from Palestinians. Jordan, for example was granted, I apologize as I don't have a better word than granted, some autonomous control in 1920. Which became Jordan. The UN & Britain Israel in 1948. Many Palestinians did lose farms and land acquired in the time after the Ottomans left? I have argued for historical reparations. It does not mean those that came back to the region had more claim, say, to Jerusalem than Jews did. Jerusalem was an area which held Jewish majority population. Borders formed in the region for Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia all around these times. Many of the Jews that came to these areas' were expelled by those countries majorities, also Morocco, Yemen, Iran. People were being displaced, finding new homes, new borders popped up all over Europe, the Middle East. Handy giving some cultures the right of expulsion, but condemning Israel for it? Handy that people forget, as cultures repatriated the region; they claimed ownership of religious sites? Jews were kept from praying at the West Wall, and Jews regularly were subjected to Pogroms, violent marches attacks on businesses and religious sites In the 1920's and 1930's. These were groups fighting for this territory, politically & physically before the Israeli state was created. As I have stated, the guy who is considered the founding father of Zionist state was Thomas Herzl. When he died, in 1904, the Zionist organisation had about 100,000 members out of a population of 15 million Jews world wide. Many Jews at that time thought it would be blasphemous to return to Isreal before the messianic era. As for the rest that pertains to the discussion about who has what right to what land in Isreal. I have always defended Isreals right to defend exist. It's their constant illegal settlement/ land grabs in the last 30 odd years are what I am stating is one of the core impediments to a peaceful solution. Edit I am not giving any culture/ people the right to expell anyone. Please quote me were I have stated this. Edited January 11 by Ilunga Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 12 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said: Same figures I read; but 75% Ottoman. Turkey is a Muslim country. ie Just over 100,000 Palestinian is how I read. A bit more than the combination of Jews & Christians. I didn't find any differentiation between the Muslims ? They all lived in the area that as far as I can ascertain was first called Philistia, in 12BCE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 2 minutes ago, Ilunga said: It's their constant illegal settlement/ land grabs in the last 30 odd years are what I am stating is one of the core impediments to a peaceful solution I don't disagree. In fact I call on Israel as the 1st world wealthy, and 'in theory' run by the rule of law country to come clean. Considering they have been fire bombed, had missiles launched & these have been staging grounds for terrorist & military attacks? I don't disagree with the West Bank as a de-weaponized security zone. That does not mean they should be building apartment buildings, and removing farmers. Among illegal activities that need to be shut down. Yet that is the West Bank. They left Gaza in 2006. Gazans could and should have been building their society. Not conducting wars and actions like Oct 7. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 1 minute ago, Ilunga said: I didn't find any differentiation between the Muslims ? They all lived in the area that as far as I can ascertain was first called Philistia, in 12BCE. There are over 400,000 Muslims, but none are the ruling Ottomans? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 1 minute ago, Canuck Surfer said: I don't disagree. In fact I call on Israel as the 1st world wealthy, and 'in theory' run by the rule of law country to come clean. Considering they have been fire bombed, had missiles launched & these have been staging grounds for terrorist & military attacks? I don't disagree with the West Bank as a de-weaponized security zone. That does not mean they should be building apartment buildings, and removing farmers. Among illegal activities that need to be shut down. Yet that is the West Bank. They left Gaza in 2006. Gazans could and should have been building their society. Not conducting wars and actions like Oct 7. So the sins of 20- 25,000 should be visited upon close to 800,000 people. I saw today that 60 percent of homes in Gaza have been destroyed/ damaged. Do you believe this is a proportionate response to the October the 7th attack ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 4 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said: There are over 400,000 Muslims, but none are the ruling Ottomans? They were all Muslims that lived in what is now known as Palestine/ Isreal. It's the descendants of those people that live in Gaza and the occupied territories now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 6 hours ago, Ilunga said: I stated " Out of their region " meaning the middle east. Isreal is part of the middle east. Again unlike western nations, especially the US, the Arabian states don't have a history of illegally invading/ interfering with the politics of other nations in many other parts of the world including the middle east. What has the rest of your post have to do with the history of the conflict between the Isreali and Palestinians, since the idea for a Zionist/ Isreali state, or the formation of the state of Israel ? How about Spain in 711? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 Back to the whole circus of South Africa “case” - here’s an interesting photo from 2015, in which South African president Zuma shakes hands with Mashal, one of the leaders of Hamas, during official visit of Hamas to South Africa in 2015. Let it sink again - one of the leaders of terrorist organization (in 2015 Hamas was already considered a terrorist organization by most of the civilized world) is on OFFICIAL visit to South Africa. And we need to take anything coming out of this country seriously? This world is turning into a huge circus… 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 (edited) 10 minutes ago, RomanPer said: Back to the whole circus of South Africa “case” - here’s an interesting photo from 2015, in which South African president Zuma shakes hands with Mashal, one of the leaders of Hamas, during official visit of Hamas to South Africa in 2015. Let it sink again - one of the leaders of terrorist organization (in 2015 Hamas was already considered a terrorist organization by most of the civilized world) is on OFFICIAL visit to South Africa. And we need to take anything coming out of this country seriously? This world is turning into a huge circus… Just...gonna leave this here, scuse my reach. Ya just gonna drop this right over here. Pardon my pointing that out I'll just be on my way https://www.axios.com/2021/10/13/netanyahu-putin-i-will-be-back-soon Days after being ousted as prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu passed a message to Russian President Vladimir Putin promising a quick comeback, a source close to Netanyahu and a European diplomat told me. Why it matters: Netanyahu and Putin had a close relationship that grew even closer after Russia began its military involvement in Syria in 2015. Netanyahu flaunted that relationship during election campaigns — meeting with Putin days before the 2019 vote and even featuring a picture of the two together on a campaign billboard to emphasize his stature as a statesman. Edited January 11 by Warhippy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 1 hour ago, Warhippy said: Just...gonna leave this here, scuse my reach. Ya just gonna drop this right over here. Pardon my pointing that out I'll just be on my way https://www.axios.com/2021/10/13/netanyahu-putin-i-will-be-back-soon Days after being ousted as prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu passed a message to Russian President Vladimir Putin promising a quick comeback, a source close to Netanyahu and a European diplomat told me. Why it matters: Netanyahu and Putin had a close relationship that grew even closer after Russia began its military involvement in Syria in 2015. Netanyahu flaunted that relationship during election campaigns — meeting with Putin days before the 2019 vote and even featuring a picture of the two together on a campaign billboard to emphasize his stature as a statesman. I vaguely recall that, good post. I see some difference between a head of state and former head of state meeting and a head of state meeting with internationally recognized terrorists. I don't know much about south africa's politics so I can't say much. Interesting though. Clearly South Africa's government sees something for them in this. I have not the foggiest idea what though. Something to keep watch on. Off the top of my head, South Africa may be the most powerful nation on the continent, aside from Egypt. Could they be working to replace Egypt as an ally on the continent to the Palestinians? Curious but again I don't know enough. I have some depth of knowledge, professionally, about the D.R. Congo and its direct neighbours from work i was involved in there, but most of what I know about S.A. is from the music of Die Antwoord, hehehe. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 1 hour ago, Warhippy said: Just...gonna leave this here, scuse my reach. Ya just gonna drop this right over here. Pardon my pointing that out I'll just be on my way https://www.axios.com/2021/10/13/netanyahu-putin-i-will-be-back-soon Days after being ousted as prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu passed a message to Russian President Vladimir Putin promising a quick comeback, a source close to Netanyahu and a European diplomat told me. Why it matters: Netanyahu and Putin had a close relationship that grew even closer after Russia began its military involvement in Syria in 2015. Netanyahu flaunted that relationship during election campaigns — meeting with Putin days before the 2019 vote and even featuring a picture of the two together on a campaign billboard to emphasize his stature as a statesman. Believe it or not, I agree with you here. Bibi is pos and should be in jail. This close relationship with putin is one of the reasons. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 2 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said: I vaguely recall that, good post. I see some difference between a head of state and former head of state meeting and a head of state meeting with internationally recognized terrorists. I don't know much about south africa's politics so I can't say much. Interesting though. Clearly South Africa's government sees something for them in this. I have not the foggiest idea what though. Something to keep watch on. This is exactly the point. Even after Bibi met with putin, Israel didn’t go anywhere to try and blame Ukraine in “genocide”. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 3 minutes ago, RomanPer said: Believe it or not, I agree with you here. Bibi is pos and should be in jail. This close relationship with putin is one of the reasons. As an aside: maybe Bibi does what needs to be done in Gaza and then takes one for the team and leaves the stage for good, or perhaps even jail? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 10 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said: As an aside: maybe Bibi does what needs to be done in Gaza and then takes one for the team and leaves the stage for good, or perhaps even jail? Look up on the internet a letter that Lieberman wrote to Bibi and military command when he was the minister of defence back in 2018. It outlined the exact attack of October 7th, he was just wrong with a year (he thought it would be in 2022). He was ignored and it led to him resigning. I’m not sure though if it’s available anywhere in English 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 The real effects of the ICJ case presented by South Africa will be raising the awareness of the genocidal nature of Israel's siege. Surely a tarnish on Israel's image and on those complicit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 9 hours ago, Ilunga said: So the sins of 20- 25,000 should be visited upon close to 800,000 people. I saw today that 60 percent of homes in Gaza have been destroyed/ damaged. Do you believe this is a proportionate response to the October the 7th attack ? Not at all. I don't believe in crushing a country of 2,000,000 to find Hamas. You will find, it is in this thread and the CDC version, myself calling for restraint on the part of Israel. Not perfect, but suggested an even increased embargo. I would have liked Egypt to have granted access to the border at Rafah. If not to Israel, to a peace keeping force. More specifically to close by any means necessary the access tunnels. What Gaza needed was the tunnels closed and said peacekeepers to allow, but monitor incoming trade, not weapons via the ports. People can call Gaza a prison. Which is an exaggeration. The truth is it was necessary; Oct 7 was the 3rd war started by Hamas, near constant intermittent & pulsating missile and other attacks. I also had a sense of despair. That would have meant militant Hamas continuing to operate, hide under Gaza. Political Hamas, if there is such a thing, had an opportunity to rule Gaza as a legitimate govt.. To create a nation and work to benefit their people. Instead they brutally got rid of any political opposition & built their tunnel system to operate their terror network. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taxi Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 12 hours ago, Ilunga said: I stated " Out of their region " meaning the middle east. Isreal is part of the middle east. Again unlike western nations, especially the US, the Arabian states don't have a history of illegally invading/ interfering with the politics of other nations in many other parts of the world including the middle east. What has the rest of your post have to do with the history of the conflict between the Isreali and Palestinians, since the idea for a Zionist/ Isreali state, or the formation of the state of Israel ? There are very few nations with the capability to attack nations not close to their own borders. Lacking the capability of such an act doesn't mean you aren't an extreme aggressor. The death toll from wars between nations in the middle east (even those not involving Israel or the West) is pretty immense: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_modern_conflicts_in_the_Middle_East Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 At the end of the day? I don't see Hamas as a legitimate governing body for Gaza. If Ismail Haniyeh was their leader? As is stated & he was part of elections 2006. Sinwar, locally in Gaza (yuck!)? Why does Haniyeh live in Doha. Why does he not sit in the PLC? The Palestinian Legislative Council was created as part of the Oslo accords, back to Camp David 1993. @Super19 How do you construct the modern day Palestinian legislative body. The road to peace for Palestinians is to create lawful governance. In a perfect world, one committed to peace. Or to stop being bombed by Israel; but by definition would also include stopping provoking attacks by suicide bombers. Or planning events like Oct 7. Above, when the Oslo accord was created Arafat signed on. Arafat, like Haniyeh, made his fortune on corrupt governance over Palestine. Sooner or later, it still has to transition to ruling its people. Even the Taliban has had to make this transition. That said, my opinion, he (Arafat) moved to create clean money by signing on for peace with Israel. Officially, and this I do support, the method was creation of a system of legislature that was both public & transparent. Geared to governing the people of East Jerusalem, West Bank & Gaza which is what it was set up to do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Accords The reason is once ''elected,'' Hamas effectively dismantled the governance system, PA, that was being created. The PLC has not sat since 2007, shortly after Hamas were elected. Have been running the government as they see fit as opposed to how they were elected to do so? My observation / opinion is as much of the control over activities has become underground as possible. Which suits the ability of leaders to operate without accountability; for three main purposes. * Corruption; leaders become incredibly wealthy off tax free money. * Doctrine; including rejecting Israel but notably to dictate cultural rules. ** To suit keeping leaders enshrined, peoples subjected (?) cough corruption. * Enforce control by decree versus legislature. The last three points are my opinion, but easily assumed, readily accepted as facts of reality. Also why Hamas's government has not been accepted internationally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 I get the empathy, sympathy and heartbreak for Palestinians. That Hamas adopts itself as the legal governing body of Gaza, with the destruction of Israel not just as an official policy. With the destruction of Israel among its routine activities, forget Oct 7 hostages & slaughter, think 12,000 missiles launched? This why Gaza is under attack. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Arrogant Worms Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 Iran seizes Greek tanker, escalating tensions with West https://www.politico.eu/article/iran-seizes-greek-tanker-in-gulf-of-oman-escalating-tensions-with-west/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 11 hours ago, Ilunga said: So the sins of 20- 25,000 should be visited upon close to 800,000 people. I suggest quit quoting Hamas propaganda. Even though I agree, because I thoroughly hate the innocent deaths. Also remember that Palestine included Syria, Jordan, parts of Iraq, Lebanon, Kuwait under Ottoman rule. Primarily Jordan & modern day Israel. Populations were also dispersed in to these countries. For their part the British set aside first semi-autonomous control over Jordan in 1920. 200,000 of that population figure quoted in 1900, I suppose some of it was growth, became Jordanian subjects. Its creation as a nation in 1947 also by Britain in relinquishing control over Palestine, not JUST Israel. Jordan's King & military seemed pretty complicit in the Nakba in 1948. Then tried to grab a share as part of attacks after Israel's creation. They also slaughtered and expelled those Palestinians working under Arafat in 1972. The current death toll in Gaza now similar to the toll exacted by Jordan; who was just freeing Palestine (from militants) at that time? * Jordan expelled them because they were militant. Wanted control over Jordan, not just their desire for war with Israel. * Egypt does not want encampments of refugeeès now. They wish no militants added to the challenge for leadership in their country either. For condemnation of the West as 'at fault.' Middle Eastern countries are highly reluctant to accept refugees from other Middle Eastern nations. None seem to like any minorities. I see the purification of race; ethnic cleansing of opposition minorities as widespread throughout virtually all Middle East & Muslim countries in Asia & Africa. I do believe in peeling back borders, Israel has to give land back to the West Bank. That said, I would love to see this as a multicultural zone. Imagine Christians not being able to see Bethlehem, or the Dead Sea? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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