Hamas attacking Israel

[Canuck Surfer]

When do we here Free, Free, Kurdistan?

 

As many, more, Kurds have died in the last 30 years than Palestinians since 1948.  More, substantially displaced, over 5 million, they don't have a free nation either?

 

 

My point is all people should be free!  If Kurds could be free, active minorities with all rights & privileges in Syria, Turkey, Iraq? Life would be great!

 

Palestinians & Kurds are fully deserving of their own nation. 

 

Just not by calling for the destruction of other races as does Hamas...

[Bob Long]

14 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

When do we here Free, Free, Kurdistan?

 

 

you don't. You don't here many deserving "free _______" situations around the globe. 

 

But for some reason, Israel needs to continue to justify its existence in ways we don't demand of other countries. Why don't we still do this for Canada? We did some shady stuff, fought wars, still have terrible treatment of First Nations people, but no one questions Canadas existence. 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

7 hours ago, Warhippy said:

Vladimir Putin promising a quick comeback, a source close to Netanyahu and a European diplomat told me.

 

Its also worth mentioning that Israel certainly, Bibi secondarily has distanced themselves from Russia & Putin. Owing little to Palestine.

 

Clearly aware of Iran advancing it's nuclear program & developing nuclear weapons first and foremost. Cozying closer up to Iran in general.

 

In return for weapons for Ukraine, perhaps, but a different story? Leverage, or working with Vlad Israel was otherwise assumed to be a good partner for Ukraine as a closer ally of the US. That has never surfaced. Israel is also not an ally, a sworn enemy of Assad in Syria with whom they are in near constant conflict. Assad a closer ally of Russia, whom helped absolutely wipe Aleppo off the map to keep in power. 

 

In any case, Putin is not a close ally of Netanyahu, as much as any leader would strike deals at times of convenience.

 

Vlad has the most to gain from chaos in the Middle East.  The more despots and militia who he can use to gain partial control, underground revenues. The better!

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

1 hour ago, Bob Long said:

You don't here many deserving "free _______" situations around the globe. 

Kurds are Muslims.

 

And you are echoing my point. People, many anyway, who call for a free Palestine, cow tow to any indiscretion against Muslims?  As a generalisation anyway. Sure there are examples of Israel behaving illegally.  750,000 Muslims were displaced to make way for Israel. 5,000,000 Muslims, Kurds, were displaced by Turkey. They were gassed in Iraq. Nearly a million sitting in refugee camps, or stateless. In the Arab spring the Yemeni dictator was dispatched. There has been civil war ever since; militant groups as credible as Hamas fighting for control. With no regard from other Muslims, regard for the civilians.

 

Who cares if there is not someone from the West to blame?

[Ilunga]

8 hours ago, RomanPer said:

How about Spain in 711?

 

Yes, forgot about that.

In the sum total of their history, thousands of years, the Arabian Tribes  invaded another nation not in their region once....once 

 

As opposed to say the US, which according to this book by the American historian Chris Kelly and British historian Stuart Laycock

America Invades 

How We've Invaded or Been Militarily to Involved with Almost Every Country On Earth. 

 

There are only 3 countries that America, that has the been around a few hundred years, hasn't invaded or been militarily involved with.

 

Andorra 

Bhutan 

Lichtenstein 

 

[Ilunga]

4 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Not at all. I don't believe in crushing a country of 2,000,000 to find Hamas. 

 

You will find, it is in this thread and the CDC version, myself calling for restraint on the part of Israel.  Not perfect, but suggested an even increased embargo.  I would have liked Egypt to have granted access to the border at Rafah.  If not to Israel, to a peace keeping force. More specifically to close by any means necessary the access tunnels. What Gaza needed was the tunnels closed and said peacekeepers to allow, but monitor incoming trade, not weapons via the ports.  People can call Gaza a prison. Which is an exaggeration. The truth is it was necessary; Oct 7 was the 3rd war started by Hamas, near constant intermittent & pulsating missile and other attacks.  

 

I also had a sense of despair. 

 

That would have meant militant Hamas continuing to operate, hide under Gaza. Political Hamas, if there is such a thing, had an opportunity to rule Gaza as a legitimate govt.. To create a nation and work to benefit their people. Instead they brutally got rid of any political opposition & built their tunnel system to operate their terror network. 

 

 

 

You realise you are talking about a catch 22 situation ?

You call on the Gazans to build a nation yet how can they do that when they are blockaded by the Isrealis ? 

 

 

Anyway, we have diverged from your original post where you claimed that I was wrong in stating that the 2 major reasons for this conflict/ impediments to peace are the illegal settlements and Isreal practicing a form of oppression on the Palestinian people.

 

In a post last night you agreed that the illegal settlements are indeed a cause of this conflict/ impediment to peace ?

[Ilunga]

3 hours ago, Taxi said:

 

There are very few nations with the capability to attack nations not close to their own borders. Lacking the capability of such an act doesn't mean you aren't an extreme aggressor. The death toll from wars between nations in the middle east (even those not involving Israel or the West) is pretty immense:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_modern_conflicts_in_the_Middle_East

 

 

Yet everyone talks about the Iranian boogey man, you know the one that made the deal to not build nukes, the deal that the US broke.

The boogeyman that's coming for us all.

 

Talking about using Nukes, it was a member of the Knesset, the Heritage Minister Otzma Yehudit that stated 

" One of Isreals options in the war on Gaza is to drop a Nuclear bomb on the strip " 

 

The bombs that Isreal are ambiguous about.....

[Ilunga]

2 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

I suggest quit quoting Hamas propaganda. Even though I agree, because I thoroughly hate the innocent deaths.

 

Also remember that Palestine included Syria, Jordan, parts of Iraq, Lebanon, Kuwait under Ottoman rule. Primarily Jordan & modern day Israel.

 

   

 

Populations were also dispersed in to these countries. For their part the British set aside first semi-autonomous control over Jordan in 1920. 200,000 of that population figure quoted in 1900, I suppose some of it was growth, became Jordanian subjects. Its creation as a nation in 1947 also by Britain in relinquishing control over Palestine, not JUST Israel.  Jordan's King & military seemed pretty complicit in the Nakba in 1948. Then tried to grab a share as part of attacks after Israel's creation. They also slaughtered and expelled those Palestinians working under Arafat in 1972. 

 

The current death toll in Gaza now similar to the toll exacted by Jordan; who was just freeing Palestine (from militants) at that time? 

 

* Jordan expelled them because they were militant.  Wanted control over Jordan, not just their desire for war with Israel.

* Egypt does not want encampments of refugeeès now. They wish no militants added to the challenge for leadership in their country either. 

 

For condemnation of the West as 'at fault.' Middle Eastern countries are highly reluctant to accept refugees from other Middle Eastern nations. None seem to like any minorities. I see the purification of race; ethnic cleansing of opposition minorities as widespread throughout virtually all Middle East & Muslim countries in Asia & Africa.

 

I do believe in peeling back borders, Israel has to give land back to the West Bank. That said, I would love to see this as a multicultural zone.  

 

Imagine Christians not being able to see Bethlehem, or the Dead Sea?

 

Please brother, that's insulting.

I never have, and never will propagate Hamas BS. 

 

Just because I believe in freedom and justice for the Palestinian people, I certainly don't condone violence by anyone  including Hamas to achieve those aims. 

 

I am virtually the only poster that consistently posts articles and videos of Isrealis and Arabs/ Palestinians working together for peace. 

 

 

[Taxi]

16 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Yet everyone talks about the Iranian boogey man, you know the one that made the deal to not build nukes, the deal that the US broke.

The boogeyman that's coming for us all.

 

Talking about using Nukes, it was a member of the Knesset, the Heritage Minister Otzma Yehudit that stated 

" One of Isreals options in the war on Gaza is to drop a Nuclear bomb on the strip " 

 

The bombs that Isreal are ambiguous about.....

Iran is working extra hard to create wars all around it. Lebanon, Palestine, Israel, Yemen, Syria, it's a long list. Many dead. Their support of Assad alone likely resulted in twenty times more deaths than the current Gaza war, which is being called genocide. I guess that's mega genocide?

[Yoshiyoshi]

8 minutes ago, Taxi said:

Iran is working extra hard to create wars all around it. Lebanon, Palestine, Israel, Yemen, Syria, it's a long list. Many dead. Their support of Assad alone likely resulted in twenty times more deaths than the current Gaza war, which is being called genocide. I guess that's mega genocide?

Anything can be called genocide if you change the definition of it to suit your narrative

[Taxi]

Just now, Yoshiyoshi said:

Anything can be called genocide if you change the definition of it to suit your narrative

Exactly. Not to say Israel is innocent, but there's a big difference between killing thousands, while fighting Hamas on urban combat, they initiated, and killing millions of civilians in a non combat situation.

[Super19]

3 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

At the end of the day?

 

I don't see Hamas as a legitimate governing body for Gaza.  If Ismail Haniyeh was their leader?  As is stated & he was part of elections 2006. Sinwar, locally in Gaza (yuck!)?

 

Why does Haniyeh live in Doha. Why does he not sit in the PLC? The Palestinian Legislative Council was created as part of the Oslo accords, back to Camp David 1993. 

 

@Super19 How do you construct the modern day Palestinian legislative body. The road to peace for Palestinians is to create lawful governance. In a perfect world, one committed to peace.  Or to stop being bombed by Israel; but by definition would also include stopping provoking attacks by suicide bombers. Or planning events like Oct 7. Above, when the Oslo accord was created Arafat signed on.  Arafat, like Haniyeh, made his fortune on corrupt governance over Palestine. Sooner or later, it still has to transition to ruling its people. Even the Taliban has had to make this transition. That said, my opinion, he (Arafat) moved to create clean money by signing on for peace with Israel. Officially, and this I do support, the method was creation of a system of legislature that was both public & transparent. Geared to governing the people of East Jerusalem, West Bank & Gaza which is what it was set up to do. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Accords

 

The reason is once ''elected,'' Hamas effectively dismantled the governance system, PA, that was being created. The PLC has not sat since 2007, shortly after Hamas were elected. Have been running the government as they see fit as opposed to how they were elected to do so? My observation / opinion is as much of the control over activities has become underground as possible. Which suits the ability of leaders to operate without accountability; for three main purposes. 

 

* Corruption; leaders become incredibly wealthy off tax free money. 

* Doctrine; including rejecting Israel but notably to dictate cultural rules.              

           ** To suit keeping leaders enshrined, peoples subjected (?) cough corruption.

* Enforce control by decree versus legislature.

 

The last three points are my opinion, but easily assumed, readily accepted as facts of reality. Also why Hamas's government has not been accepted internationally.   

I agree Hamas is not a legitimate government. 

It's up to Israel first to cease their oppressive and occupying forces before anyone can expect Palestinians right to self govern. 

[Super19]

8 minutes ago, Taxi said:

Exactly. Not to say Israel is innocent, but there's a big difference between killing thousands, while fighting Hamas on urban combat, they initiated, and killing millions of civilians in a non combat situation.

Why did Hamas initiate Oct 7?

[Yoshiyoshi]

8 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Why did Hamas initiate Oct 7?

Israel was going to normalize relations with some middle eastern countries and Iran didnt want that, also Russia wanted a distraction from Ukraine

[Super19]

10 minutes ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

Israel was going to normalize relations with some middle eastern countries and Iran didnt want that, also Russia wanted a distraction from Ukraine

So according to this, Hamas is fighting for Iranian and Russian interests?

[Bob Long]

11 minutes ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

Israel was going to normalize relations with some middle eastern countries and Iran didnt want that, also Russia wanted a distraction from Ukraine

 

All the dredging up of history overshadows this very correct statement, imo.

[Canuck Surfer]

1 hour ago, Ilunga said:

 

You realise you are talking about a catch 22 situation ?

You call on the Gazans to build a nation yet how can they do that when they are blockaded by the Isrealis ? 

 

They are blockaded because Hamas fires missiles in to Israeli civilian area's. Stages suicide bombings, take foreign & Israeli citizens hostage, including children, disabled & elderly. Attacks border guards. All before Oct 7.  Hamas attacked Israel twice since 2006 prior to Oct, fought wars against Israel. Continued an ongoing policy carrying out terrorist activities. 

 

Deposed a regime that had made peace with Israel. You yourself said why is it Muslim countries like Egypt, UAE, Jordan can make peace with Israel? Suggested they can make peace with no one; a paradox? What happened with Rabin / Arafat? With Jordan in '94? Hamas allies today with regime's committed to Jewish complete expulsion from the region; or death.  Just Palestinian groups did like they used to do from 1900 to 1940.  A history you suggested was irrelevant?   

 

Then did the same in scale on Oct 7 because Israel was to make peace with the Saudi's..  These dumb fucks walk in to a bar region, and pick a fight with someone ten and 20 times stronger than them.  With the same plan as Vlad the d!ckhead Putin. Oh, we thought everybody would sympathize with us & come to our side? Believed we were going to be conquering heo's? Hamas expected Iran, Hezbollah, Syria, the Arab brotherhood, the Yemeni all to come in.  Hoped others would to jump in to the war.

 

I guess you could say I believe the blockade is self inflicted.

 

They could have built a nation instead of tunnels.  Israel had completely withdrawn from Gaza. 

 

Thats why they are blockaded.

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, Taxi said:

Iran is working extra hard to create wars all around it. Lebanon, Palestine, Israel, Yemen, Syria, it's a long list. Many dead. Their support of Assad alone likely resulted in twenty times more deaths than the current Gaza war, which is being called genocide. I guess that's mega genocide?

 

Yes, but some posters here, and pundits elsewhere suggest that we here in the west have something to fear from them. 

And Hamas... something... something...world wide caliphate.

Do you seriously believe this is something we should fear ?

 

 

Have you forgotten about the Saudis and Isrealis themselves who are involved in these proxy wars with Iran ? 

There is blood on all their hands, however to the detriment of the Iranian people themselves, they are vilified by the west.

 

Me, I denounce all people who use violence as a means to solve conflicts/ problems.

Lost track of the amount of times I have stated this. 

 

Guess you don't want to address the fact that it was an extremist in Isreal that suggested using nukes. 

Guess you are only interested in pointing out the actions of the extremists on one side of the conflict.

[Taxi]

1 hour ago, Super19 said:

So according to this, Hamas is fighting for Iranian and Russian interests?

Yes. Hamas believes they are fighting for their own interests. However, they are puppet for Iran and Russia to fight the USA and pacify their own populations. No one will question why the Ayatollah is murdering women for not wearing headscarves if Israel is fighting Muslims.

[Ilunga]

9 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

They are blockaded because Hamas fires missiles in to Israeli civilian area's. Stages suicide bombings, take foreign & Israeli citizens hostage, including children, disabled & elderly. Attacks border guards. All before Oct 7.  Hamas attacked Israel twice since 2006 prior to Oct, fought wars against Israel. Continued an ongoing policy carrying out terrorist activities. 

 

Deposed a regime that had made peace with Israel. You yourself said why is it Muslim countries like Egypt, UAE, Jordan can make peace with Israel? Suggested they can make peace with no one; a paradox? What happened with Rabin / Arafat? With Jordan in '94? Hamas allies today with regime's committed to Jewish complete expulsion from the region; or death.  Just Palestinian groups did like they used to do from 1900 to 1940.  A history you suggested was irrelevant?   

 

Then did the same in scale on Oct 7 because Israel was to make peace with the Saudi's..  These dumb fucks walk in to a bar region, and pick a fight with someone ten and 20 times stronger than them.  With the same plan as Vlad the d!ckhead Putin. Oh, we thought everybody would sympathize with us & come to our side? Believed we were going to be conquering heo's? Hamas expected Iran, Hezbollah, Syria, the Arab brotherhood, the Yemeni all to come in.  Hoped others would to jump in to the war.

 

I guess you could say I believe the blockade is self inflicted.

 

They could have built a nation instead of tunnels.  Israel had completely withdrawn from Gaza. 

 

Thats why they are blockaded.

 

No matter whether the reasons are valid or not, it's a catch 22 situation.

You call on " average" Gazans to build an economy/ nation yet how can they do this while they are being blockaded ? 

 

Also what's happens on the west bank is not a seperate issue.

The problems in Gaza, west bank and east Jerusalem are all linked in the minds of the Palestinian people.

 

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, Taxi said:

Exactly. Not to say Israel is innocent, but there's a big difference between killing thousands, while fighting Hamas on urban combat, they initiated, and killing millions of civilians in a non combat situation.

 

I created a thread about about the Humanitarian crisis in Yemen on the old board.

No one apart from @Canuck Surfer seemed to care then. 

 

 

 

[Ilunga]

12 minutes ago, Taxi said:

Yes. Hamas believes they are fighting for their own interests. However, they are puppet for Iran and Russia to fight the USA and pacify their own populations. No one will question why the Ayatollah is murdering women for not wearing headscarves if Israel is fighting Muslims.

 

While the protests aren't as big as they were early last year, many in Iran are still fighting for women's rights.

 

 

https://theconversation.com/womens-activism-in-iran-continues-despite-street-protests-dying-down-in-face-of-state-repression-213514

 

 

[Optimist Prime]

Hooti's done gon' get Blowfished. 

 

Five eyes nations all played rolls tonight in US and UK led airstrikes on Houthi bases. 

 

You probably all already know that but I was busy watching hockey and unboxing a new Omen monitor for my office set up. 

[Ilunga]

5 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

When do we here Free, Free, Kurdistan?

 

As many, more, Kurds have died in the last 30 years than Palestinians since 1948.  More, substantially displaced, over 5 million, they don't have a free nation either?

 

 

My point is all people should be free!  If Kurds could be free, active minorities with all rights & privileges in Syria, Turkey, Iraq? Life would be great!

 

Palestinians & Kurds are fully deserving of their own nation. 

 

Just not by calling for the destruction of other races as does Hamas...

 

Ever since I heard that line 

" And you're cactus if you Kurdish "

In the song  Aussiemandias by TISM, I have researched the situation the Kurds have been, and are in.

Literally everyone fucks them over, including their allies.

 

" Nothing is certain in this world except death, taxes, and America betraying the Kurds "

 

https://theintercept.com/2019/10/07/kurds-syria-turkey-trump-betrayal/

 

 

[Taxi]

33 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

While the protests aren't as big as they were early last year, many in Iran are still fighting for women's rights.

 

 

https://theconversation.com/womens-activism-in-iran-continues-despite-street-protests-dying-down-in-face-of-state-repression-213514

 

 

I agree. And the Ayatollahs want to divert these people's attention towards outside forces, that have no real control over their lives. It's the classic move by dictators. You find a scapegoat to get the people to ignore you have your boot in their necks.