Hamas attacking Israel

[Canuck Surfer]

15 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

No matter whether the reasons are valid or not, it's a catch 22 situation.

You call on " average" Gazans to build an economy/ nation yet how can they do this while they are being blockaded ? 

 

Also what's happens on the west bank is not a seperate issue.

The problems in Gaza, west bank and east Jerusalem are all linked in the minds of the Palestinian people.

 

 

Same issue I agree again. In 2006, as 1994 & at Camp David?

 

Palestinians via Hamas in 2006 rejected an offer to have an independent state; combining East Jerusalem, West Bank & Gaza as an independent nation. With East Jerusalem as capital.  At the same time as they also left Gaza. I don't dispute illegal activities by Israel since. More egregious activities by Ham as; they started wars. That offer included a full withdrawal of Gaza in good faith.  

 

Hamas immediately responded by attacking Israel. Lost.  I don't believe it justifies the indignance of settlement activity.  Military activity was initiated by Hamas, not Israel. Its great to call out Israel for illegal activity; Hamas launching rockets & suicide attacks, acts of civil disobedience which are terrorism because these were in Israel itself? 

 

You're offered a peace deal, instead of negotiating; you attack someone you cannot beat.  Who is negotiating in good faith at that point in time...

 

 

As for the average Gazan? There is a degree of fate that falls with being born, or moving here. Imagine the degree of fate for that German girl who was kidnapped at the rave dance party. Your dad fought in a war. My grandfather survived a war he was mobilized to serve for the Russian nation who killed his family and stole their farm. Shani Louk was kidnapped marched through Gaza city, then 3 or 4 weeks later found dead. I'll spare some of the other details. Was her luck fate? That said;

 

There was a time the average Gazan had a very good opportunity to help determine its future; in 2004. Palestinians were well on their way to ongoing peace, already signed with Israel, but they voted in a hardline party. I have no idea how fair the elections were?  It's a rough part of the world.  Yahya Sinwar was in an Israeli jail in 2006. 15 years earlier he was imprisoned, in part for personally strangling with his bare hands, Palestinian dissidents to his anti-Israeli view. The simple thought that protest, the ability to vote, even revolt to corruption, or report it to a court system is a luxury I acknowledge Gazans at times did not have.  Could they have risen up in revolt to Hamas?

 

Fate says between 2011 and today; it could certainly have led to the death by internal discipline in Gaza. It takes courage to protest or try to upend an organization such as Hamas. Even just to flee & leave. They can, and did harass the families of those who left. Their track record is horrific. Shows no desire to avoid bloodshed. 

 

Its why I call on Israel to be the leader, behave in accordance with the law. For the benefit of possible peace, its own citizens but also Palestinians.

 

Hamas is still the primary instigator here,

[Ilunga]

1 minute ago, Taxi said:

I agree. And the Ayatollahs want to divert these people's attention towards outside forces, that have no real control over their lives. It's the classic move by dictators. You find a scapegoat to get the people to ignore you have your boot in their necks.

 

Don't ya think that instead of us here in the west demonizing the leaders, we instead should show support to the people who are protesting against their extremist  leaders ?

Show the people of Iran we are fully behind them. 

I find that positivity rather than negativity is a better way to initiate change.

 

From what I have heard,people who have been there, and the research I have done,the Iranian people themselves are a kind, generous people. 

There was actually an Iranian guy fighting at the same event as my friends daughter a few weeks ago.

Got chatting to his support group, they were really nice people.

His fight was a cracker, he won, and was a very gracious winner, complimenting the other fighter.

[Canuck Surfer]

3 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

Please brother, that's insulting.

I never have, and never will propagate Hamas BS. 

 

Just because I believe in freedom and justice for the Palestinian people, I certainly don't condone violence by anyone  including Hamas to achieve those aims. 

 

I am virtually the only poster that consistently posts articles and videos of Isrealis and Arabs/ Palestinians working together for peace. 

 

 

 

What I read was you defended that Palestine was victim to Israel. Used blame words like Apartheid & genocide. Its just not the whole story. 

 

 

[Ilunga]

18 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Same issue I agree again. In 2006, as 1994 & at Camp David?

 

Palestinians via Hamas in 2006 rejected an offer to have an independent state; combining East Jerusalem, West Bank & Gaza as an independent nation. With East Jerusalem as capital.  At the same time as they also left Gaza. I don't dispute illegal activities by Israel since. More egregious activities by Ham as; they started wars. That offer included a full withdrawal of Gaza in good faith.  

 

Hamas immediately responded by attacking Israel. Lost.  I don't believe it justifies the indignance of settlement activity.  Military activity was initiated by Hamas, not Israel. Its great to call out Israel for illegal activity; Hamas launching rockets & suicide attacks, acts of civil disobedience which are terrorism because these were in Israel itself? 

 

You're offered a peace deal, instead of negotiating; you attack someone you cannot beat.  Who is negotiating in good faith at that point in time...

 

 

As for the average Gazan? There is a degree of fate that falls with being born, or moving here. Imagine the degree of fate for that German girl who was kidnapped at the rave dance party. Your dad fought in a war. My grandfather survived a war he was mobilized to serve for the Russian nation who killed his family and stole their farm. Shani Louk was kidnapped marched through Gaza city, then 3 or 4 weeks later found dead. I'll spare some of the other details. Was her luck fate? That said;

 

There was a time the average Gazan had a very good opportunity to help determine its future; in 2004. Palestinians were well on their way to ongoing peace, already signed with Israel, but they voted in a hardline party. I have no idea how fair the elections were?  It's a rough part of the world.  Yahya Sinwar was in an Israeli jail in 2006. 15 years earlier he was imprisoned, in part for personally strangling with his bare hands, Palestinian dissidents to his anti-Israeli view. The simple thought that protest, the ability to vote, even revolt to corruption, or report it to a court system is a luxury I acknowledge Gazans at times did not have.  Could they have risen up in revolt to Hamas?

 

Fate says between 2011 and today; it could certainly have led to the death by internal discipline in Gaza. It takes courage to protest or try to upend an organization such as Hamas. Even just to flee & leave. They can, and did harass the families of those who left. Their track record is horrific. Shows no desire to avoid bloodshed. 

 

Its why I call on Israel to be the leader, behave in accordance with the law. For the benefit of possible peace, its own citizens but also Palestinians.

 

Hamas is still the primary instigator here,

 

I don't know how many articles I have to post, all from different sources, including Isreali sources, that maybe if Isreal stopped taking land, there would be a better chance of Hamas being neutralized by their own people.  

Ever since the Oslo accords Isreal has continued to take land.

This violates the agreement.

 

 

As I have stated from the beginning, it's a circle of hatred that continues round and around. 

 

How many people in Gaza are now going to hold hatred in their hearts after what has happened in the last 3 months ? 

 

What Isreal is doing now in Gaza will not end this conflict.

It is only fueling it. 

[Canuck Surfer]

2 hours ago, Super19 said:

I agree Hamas is not a legitimate government. 

 

Thanks for this!

3 hours ago, Super19 said:

It's up to Israel first to cease their oppressive and occupying forces before anyone can expect Palestinians right to self govern.

 

I agree Israel has to take the lead role.

 

Hamas is led, effectively, by gangsters who will, and have, killed those who oppose them. Have militant policing of the streets, access to markets and services by the people, tunnels, enforcement of subjugation by the people of Gaza. Creation of their propaganda.

 

It would be nice if there were Palestinians, even in exile, willing to tackle a transparent system of justice in taking over administration.

 

[Ilunga]

2 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

What I read was you defended that Palestine was victim to Israel. Used blame words like Apartheid & genocide. Its just not the whole story. 

 

 

 

I stated that the international community and many  Isrealis themselves, some very prominent state that Isreal is practising arpartheid. 

 

I stated that I believe the Palestinians live under some form of oppression, whatever you want to name it.

Pretty fuckin obvious to me.

 

As for genocide, I defended Isreal against the charge of genocide earlier in this thread.

Since then I have been silent on this subject.

 

[Ilunga]

9 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Thanks for this!

 

I agree Israel has to take the lead role.

 

Hamas is led, effectively, by gangsters who will, and have, killed those who oppose them. Have militant policing of the streets, access to markets and services by the people, tunnels, enforcement of subjugation by the people of Gaza. Creation of their propaganda.

 

It would be nice if there were Palestinians, even in exile, willing to tackle a transparent system of justice in taking over administration.

 

 

Again I have stated that they need a Ghandi or an MLK like figure.

 

Then again, while Afro-Americans aren't as persecuted as they were back in MLK's day, things are far from perfect for them either. 

 

And Indians, from what I hear, despite the claims their caste system is breaking down, if you are born to a shit cleaner, a shit cleaner you will probably be.

 

[Canuck Surfer]

1 hour ago, Ilunga said:

 

While the protests aren't as big as they were early last year, many in Iran are still fighting for women's rights.

 

 

https://theconversation.com/womens-activism-in-iran-continues-despite-street-protests-dying-down-in-face-of-state-repression-213514

 

 

 

This goes part and parcel with the real problem in the ME.  Groups that have and hold control.  It could actually be the most understated problem in the middle East?

 

At the expense of other peoples human rights & for the benefit of a ruling leader, class or militant group.  

 

 

And even more specifically women's rights. I'll see if I can make peace today with you?  Take up the please don't blame advice, give! Which was also mentioned.

 

I used to pay in to a charity that helped women's rights victims in India. Specifically sexual violence. Victims of honour killings, rape. Honour killings happen sometimes when a female is unfaithful? They also happen when a girls is raped, the family can no longer offer her as a virgin to a potential groom. I will try and find something similar now that I am employed again. 

 

I have learned, here on CDC including from yourself that even worse happens in the ME.  I will do charity, but more than charity I will have to find some activism.  

 

I am open to suggestion; perhaps in Palestine, Syria.

[RomanPer]

2 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

Ever since I heard that line 

" And you're cactus if you Kurdish "

In the song  Aussiemandias by TISM, I have researched the situation the Kurds have been, and are in.

Literally everyone fucks them over, including their allies.

 

" Nothing is certain in this world except death, taxes, and America betraying the Kurds "

 

https://theintercept.com/2019/10/07/kurds-syria-turkey-trump-betrayal/

 

 

 

Do you know which nation in the Middle East is the closest ally to the Kurds? Israel…

[Ilunga]

58 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

This goes part and parcel with the real problem in the ME.  Groups that have and hold control.  It could actually be the most understated problem in the middle East?

 

At the expense of other peoples human rights & for the benefit of a ruling leader, class or militant group.  

 

 

And even more specifically women's rights. I'll see if I can make peace today with you?  Take up the please don't blame advice, give! Which was also mentioned.

 

I used to pay in to a charity that helped women's rights victims in India. Specifically sexual violence. Victims of honour killings, rape. Honour killings happen sometimes when a female is unfaithful? They also happen when a girls is raped, the family can no longer offer her as a virgin to a potential groom. I will try and find something similar now that I am employed again. 

 

I have learned, here on CDC including from yourself that even worse happens in the ME.  I will do charity, but more than charity I will have to find some activism.  

 

I am open to suggestion; perhaps in Palestine, Syria.

 

There is always peace between us Brother...

Salaam ealaykum

 

You have a giant heart  

 

As you know I am passionate about what I believe in.

Justice and freedom for all. 

 

I must say that the Isrealis themselves have concerns in this department.

What Netanyahu is trying to do with Isreals supreme Court reminds me of what  PO1135809 tried to do with the American supreme court, different methods, same result.

Virtually certain he was copying him.

 

What astounds me is that the Saudis seem to get a free pass here in the west.

Their treatment of women is not much better than Iran's.

MBS is one evil motherfucker, yet the US sells hundreds of millions of dollars worth of weapons to them.

One guess where those weapons are used.

 

I am watching the Dakar now, it pisses me off that they, the Saudis, are able to hold this event, sports washing.

One good thing is that the Russian team of trucks, KAMAZ, which has dominated for years, has been refused entry since Russia illegally invaded Ukraine.

 

[Boudrias]

8 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

Do you know which nation in the Middle East is the closest ally to the Kurds? Israel…

Israel has Gaza under control. If Israel has to move into Lebanon to eliminate Hezbollah what support will Hezbollah have? They are part of the Lebanonese government with seats in their coalition government. 

 

More and more this situation in the ME looks like a righting of the ship in preparation for a Sunni Arab accord with Israel. Eliminate Hamas and Hezbollah and Iran has to pull back into their own country. The centrifuges must be working overtime in the Iranian underground nuke plants.  

[Bob Long]

14 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

Israel has Gaza under control. If Israel has to move into Lebanon to eliminate Hezbollah what support will Hezbollah have? They are part of the Lebanonese government with seats in their coalition government. 

 

More and more this situation in the ME looks like a righting of the ship in preparation for a Sunni Arab accord with Israel. Eliminate Hamas and Hezbollah and Iran has to pull back into their own country. The centrifuges must be working overtime in the Iranian underground nuke plants.  

 

I think the last thing Iran really wants is US missiles targeting these sites. If they really try to open up actual new fronts in this conflict that becomes a real possibility. 

[Boudrias]

57 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

I think the last thing Iran really wants is US missiles targeting these sites. If they really try to open up actual new fronts in this conflict that becomes a real possibility. 

I doubt there will be any secret sites that the Americans and Israelis don't know about. It is not insignificant that Hamas has not got much support from Sunni countries that surround Israel. In fact Saudi Arabia has recommitted to their normalization of relations with Israel once hostilities have ended. It might not sound appropriate but it appears to me that the Sunni countries are leaving Israel to clean up the mess they largely created. 

 

There is a ticking clock working against Israel and Sunni countries as Iran works towards a usable nuke. After Saddam Hussein I can understand why Iranians see a need. If not for the radicalism of the mullahs I suspect Iran would have many western friends. Back in the '80's my cousin worked inside Iran for 2-3 years and had many friends there. But even then their were religious zealots that they had to avoid.   

[Bob Long]

2 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

I doubt there will be any secret sites that the Americans and Israelis don't know about. It is not insignificant that Hamas has not got much support from Sunni countries that surround Israel. In fact Saudi Arabia has recommitted to their normalization of relations with Israel once hostilities have ended. It might not sound appropriate but it appears to me that the Sunni countries are leaving Israel to clean up the mess they largely created. 

 

There is a ticking clock working against Israel and Sunni countries as Iran works towards a usable nuke. After Saddam Hussein I can understand why Iranians see a need. If not for the radicalism of the mullahs I suspect Iran would have many western friends. Back in the '80's my cousin worked inside Iran for 2-3 years and had many friends there. But even then their were religious zealots that they had to avoid.   

 

Iran is a really sad story. Wonderful people there, with some of the worst leaders possible. 

[Taxi]

11 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

Don't ya think that instead of us here in the west demonizing the leaders, we instead should show support to the people who are protesting against their extremist  leaders ?

Show the people of Iran we are fully behind them. 

I find that positivity rather than negativity is a better way to initiate change.

 

From what I have heard,people who have been there, and the research I have done,the Iranian people themselves are a kind, generous people. 

There was actually an Iranian guy fighting at the same event as my friends daughter a few weeks ago.

Got chatting to his support group, they were really nice people.

His fight was a cracker, he won, and was a very gracious winner, complimenting the other fighter.

 

Lol. I know lots of Persian people. Very few show anything but contempt for the leaders in Iran. Many of the Persian people here left Iran because of the Ayatollahs. This has nothing to do with inherent qualities about people from Iran. The Ayatollahs, their regime, and the people that support them are a major problem for world peace. They have a political philosophy that is not based on reason. They literally accuse dissenters of conspiring with genies and sorcery. 

[Taxi]

3 hours ago, Boudrias said:

Israel has Gaza under control. If Israel has to move into Lebanon to eliminate Hezbollah what support will Hezbollah have? They are part of the Lebanonese government with seats in their coalition government. 

 

More and more this situation in the ME looks like a righting of the ship in preparation for a Sunni Arab accord with Israel. Eliminate Hamas and Hezbollah and Iran has to pull back into their own country. The centrifuges must be working overtime in the Iranian underground nuke plants.  

 

The Iranians, because of what's going on in Russia/Ukraine, are running out of weapons. The Iranians supported multiple proxy armies via a steady flow of soviet era weapons from Russia. Russia has been using those weapons for themselves, Iran, therefore, no longer has this steady flow to keep the proxy armies afloat. It's major armies are Hamas, the Houthis, Hezbollah, and Assad's regime. Syria's civil war has depleted both Assad's regime and Hezbollah. Hezbollah also has challenges, as Lebanon is in a horrible state. 

 

If Iran loses all of these armies, they are in big trouble. Hezbollah simply cannot afford to take on Israel right now. If Israel defeats both Hamas and Hezbollah, that's a major blow. In other words, Iran needs the threat of Hezbollah more than Hezbollah attacking right now.

[bishopshodan]

44 minutes ago, Taxi said:

The Iranians, because of what's going on in Russia/Ukraine, are running out of weapons.

Are they really? not messing with you...honestly curious.

I have read in the past that they have boosted their arms industry, that they do want to be a major weapons supplier. However, is that coming at the cost of their own supply?

[Taxi]

25 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

Are they really? not messing with you...honestly curious.

I have read in the past that they have boosted their arms industry, that they do want to be a major weapons supplier. However, is that coming at the cost of their own supply?

 

I should clarify my opinion.

 

They have weapons. They don't have as many weapons to flood the region, like they had in the past. For example, Russia historically, both directly and indirectly via Iran, was the greatest supplier of weapons to Syria. Now Russia a net importer of weapons. 

 

Iran certainly also has its own arms industry. They are responsible for giving the Houtis their drones, which are causing havoc for imports. They can produce arms for themselves. Iran is now, however, giving weapons to Russia, as opposed to receiving them.

[Boudrias]

3 hours ago, Taxi said:

 

The Iranians, because of what's going on in Russia/Ukraine, are running out of weapons. The Iranians supported multiple proxy armies via a steady flow of soviet era weapons from Russia. Russia has been using those weapons for themselves, Iran, therefore, no longer has this steady flow to keep the proxy armies afloat. It's major armies are Hamas, the Houthis, Hezbollah, and Assad's regime. Syria's civil war has depleted both Assad's regime and Hezbollah. Hezbollah also has challenges, as Lebanon is in a horrible state. 

 

If Iran loses all of these armies, they are in big trouble. Hezbollah simply cannot afford to take on Israel right now. If Israel defeats both Hamas and Hezbollah, that's a major blow. In other words, Iran needs the threat of Hezbollah more than Hezbollah attacking right now.

The reason I brought this up was the possible imperative that both Israel and Saudi Arabia might feel that there is a timeline that will ultimately threaten them. If they take Hezbollah out now then Iran has to fight their own battles. It secures Israeli borders which would allow a direct air attack on Iran. My tin foil hat tells me that the Americans and British attacking the Houthis secures Saudi Arabia's flank if it comes to a shooting war with Iran. 

 

If nothing else the civil unrest inside Iran has clearly shown how unpopular the current regime is. How much support would there be inside Iran for a war with Israel and Saudi Arabia? Would a targeted air campaign be enough to ensure a regime change in Iran? If Saudi Arabia is prepared to recognize Israel then obviously the last serious threat to stability in the ME is Iran. The Americans have been jetting around the ME talking to Sunni governments. I don't think those talks are about what is going on in Gaza. 

 

Take Iran out and Russia loses a major weapon supplier. Take Iran out and funding for all the terrorist orgs in the ME dries up. Take Iran out and Russian and Chinese influence globally takes a major hit. Take Iran out and Biden gets a big +++ going into a presidential campaign. Trump takes a major hit.  

Edited January 12 by Boudrias

[Canuck Surfer]

Hmmmm?

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

7 hours ago, Boudrias said:

Israel has Gaza under control. If Israel has to move into Lebanon to eliminate Hezbollah what support will Hezbollah have? They are part of the Lebanonese government with seats in their coalition government. 

 

More and more this situation in the ME looks like a righting of the ship in preparation for a Sunni Arab accord with Israel. Eliminate Hamas and Hezbollah and Iran has to pull back into their own country. The centrifuges must be working overtime in the Iranian underground nuke plants.  

 

There has to be a naturalization over time. From militance to governance. or progression?

 

Every country celebrates their war of independence!

 

 

Does that exclude a former freedom fighter from being targeted?  If by definition two sides are shooting, bombing or otherwise trying to kill each other. To me there is a state of war; declared or otherwise. 

 

Oh, what if it is independent militants. Militia? More specifically, say militia from a foreign power.  With complicit or explicit intentions.

 

>> I discussed this argument in the Ukraine war. Russia accused Ukraine of using militia, that countries who had soldiers in Azov might even be complicit. 

>> I suggested a little green man, probably with a glove, should slap Putin, not stroke him. 

 

In the case of Lebanon, really all such conflicts? A country like Israel, or Lebanon IMO need to state clearly their policy.  Even manage their borders, certainly their populations according to policy.  If Israel grants a base to the US, who fires on a foreign power. Israel has to be seen as complicit.  It gets darker with Hezbollah. They have moved from being exclusively an activist body, like Sinn Fein, a militant one, or terrorist, to one with a political arm. Hezbollah, militarily and politically receives backing from foreign interests. 

 

Clearly, Hamas now being more specific, has launched attacks in to Israel from the West Bank. Hezbollah, the military arm, has also. An important distinction is not all, perhaps evn most, targets have not been military in nature. Its absolutely the responsibility of Lebanon to police its borders, its populations.  Just like its Israel's responsibility to restrict settler violence in the West Bank.  This is where the entire system breaks down.

 

I don't see a problem shielding from law a Lebanese man who kills an Israeli guard in Lebanon during a conflict.  Shielding a man who orchestrated attacks inside a foreign country presents a problem. I would have argued the Saleh al-Arouri assassination may have been illegal if he was being granted refuge. That Hezbollah, perhaps not as official government activity, was four fold complicit.

 

* They were active in alignment meeting & harbouring with Hamas

* Had their own direct conflicts exchanging fire in the preceding days, weeks & months

* Had the backing of foreign nations with illicit intent

* Perhaps not as direct agent, but with the knowledge of their own govt

 

Lebanon is running a slippery slope.  

 

My response is the same as it was for Gaza before the invasion response to Oct 7.  I call for restraint.  Individually its hard to fault the surgical strike in comparison to acts in Gaza.  They did not bring a building down killing dozens of civilians. 

 

My escalated response would have been for Israel to offer to not attack. Yet for Lebanon to curb its militants, hand over or at worst expel Arouri.

 

Bear in mind, I have called for Israel to take the lead, done the same even prior to Oct 7 asking them to police their role. That included settler abusers, raiders, heavy handed security resulting in death in West Bank, withdrawal of settlements. It included the defense minister & had shots at the govt. The real solution is when all parties hold their borders, activities inside their borders within the law. 

[Ilunga]

7 hours ago, Taxi said:

 

 They have a political philosophy that is not based on reason. 

 

So they are like POI135809 and his political base ?

Edited January 13 by Ilunga

[Optimist Prime]

heard from a couple of buddies in the CSOR that they are holed up in Riyadh tonight, they were in Canada a few days back. Something noteworthy maybe?

 

edit: i should also say more than a few times I got as far as the Tarmac in Aviano before the mission was scrubbed and came home. LIkely this is staging in the event of... but usually if that is the case, the 'in case of..' never happens. 

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Optimist Prime said:

heard from a couple of buddies in the CSOR that they are holed up in Riyadh tonight, they were in Canada a few days back. Something noteworthy maybe?

Explain please. 

[Optimist Prime]

1 minute ago, Alflives said:

Explain please. 

I don't have any information at all, just some friends of mine who would be more planners and orderers than the guys taking the orders are over there at the moment. Recce maybe? shrug.