Hamas attacking Israel

[Ilunga]

Just now, Alflives said:

Alf is agreeing with you. 

 

I am sorry.

 

As I have stated before, I am an old cunt.

I don't get gifs.

 

[Curmudgeon]

3 hours ago, Ilunga said:

Poo-tee-weet 

 

Billy Pilgrim has become unstuck in time.....

[Alflives]

4 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

I am sorry.

 

As I have stated before, I am an old cunt.

I don't get gifs.

 

Alf is older and interprets images from that lens. 

[Kootenay Gold]

16 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Alf is older and interprets images from that lens. 

So what is older to you Alf? I'm in my 70's

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Kootenay Gold said:

So what is older to you Alf? I'm in my 70's

Alf has socks older. 

[Super19]

 

[Canuck Surfer]

2 hours ago, Ilunga said:

Why do international human rights bodies and human rights bodies within Isreal and many Isrealis themselves, some very prominent ones, state that Isreal is practising arpartheid on the Palestinian people ?

What is their motivation for doing this  ?

 

Look?

 

There is, repeating myself, zero doubt Palestinians have been victimized by what is going on. Also that Israel has acted immorally and against many laws. Yet this is clearly also true of Hamas.  More so in my opinion, but that's just opinion.  The sheer # of dead as a result is disappointing regardless if you are a supporter, or independent of any position. 

 

As for explanations. Specifically by Jews or close supporters. They have a right to those opinions.  If I spent my life growing up supporting a political party? That start making extra judicial decisions, strategic war & policy moves against my values. I would be upset.  If I were Israeli, I would NOT be voting Likud. Pre-dating Oct 7.  Your own people executing policy in a way that does not reflect your morals would piss you off. I'd be upset, betrayed. Yet, they were voted in and for the moment there is little you can do.  Except add your voice of protest which I have a lot of time for. It can and does put pressure on those parties & the govt. So protest they should.

 

Thats better than in Turkey, for example @Super19 . Or Russia where these rights are being limited, outlawed. They have no chance of making inroads. Certainly better than Gaza, where I don't believe contradicting Sinwar is an option for most. 

 

The primary answer to your question is these people are trying to make a difference, and probably are pretty educated on issues.  I argue, being close to the issue, may also make them over react in calling it Apartheid for reasons I don't need to quote again from previous posts. Thats a second answer & a third is that it gets everyone's attention. Even if over proportioned as a description, I also would like to reign in illegal activity by Israel. I also would rather they use measures other than lambasting Gaza with bombs and incendiary death of citizens to hunt Hamas. The collateral damage is way too high. 

 

 

As for other people around the world; those who oppose or are upset by Israel's behaviour.  

 

Part is demographic. There are about 120 or 121 Muslim people on this Earth for every Jew. Just shy of 2 Billion versus about $16.5 million. I could not guess but using the popular logic of the 80/20 rule? Most grew up with the Muslim side of the story.  Who owned the land, how it was proportioned. When other Muslims were victimized. I don't understand how palestinian people can believe only they have a right to the land? Jews were there a thousand years before Islam existed.

 

There is going to be bias on population figures alone. 

 

Part is cultural, which compounds the first part; which could easily have been written in reverse. Adherence to religion is of substantially higher discipline. Possibly a poor word?  Than the Western World, which is trending away from religion. A poor because people in control, school virtually everybody in control methods based on religion being important. Included is that an overwhelming proportion of Muslim populations are in 3rd and 4th world countries. Ones without such active means of protest, freedom of speech, access to alternate views.  Worse, in many militant countries. They cannot operate a shop, unless you pay the toll to the local militants that provide 'security?' Discipline to religion again a poor word when it is perverted for messaging. Not all Muslims accept perversion. Many are horrified an influenceable foot soldier would think he can go to heaven for killing & raping Jews Oct 7. Yet enough do believe it, are recruited into militance. Believe they have to do what the community tells them. 

 

Part is social media, news bias, bot farms, yup, that word propaganda. On repeat 24/7.  Advertising knows the benefits of conditional messaging.  It knows even more so the value of repetitive messaging. Russia spent billions of dollars on bot farms, arguably won Donald Trumps first election for him? They, plus media moguls around the world have a vested interest. Aussie Rupert Murdoch responsible for as much fake news, as has ever been spun on repeat! Then people like Don say everything is fake, even that is fake?    

 

Part three continued; college kids, as an example, around the world have access to the crimes Israel does commit. Others? Want to be conscientious. Have heard stories about boogeyman Islamic terrorists their whole life. Weapons of mass destruction being illegitimate can poison that everything you used to hear is fake. As rafts of suggestion there is credible oppression becomes pounded into their blue tooth headphones, populates their smart phone screens. They take to the streets. Its popular, queers for Palestine suggests everyone are not educated?

 

Look again? Regardless of whether a cross dressing activist would be welcomed in a Gazan Mosque? They have a right to oppose what victimization, collateral damage does occur. Empathy is welcome regardless of whether it might be returned!   

 

I just don't see it as one side, the Jewish, are guilty because someone posted an article. 

 

 

 

 

Part 4 & 5 are geopolitics.

 

Topics for another day. 

 

            

[Canuck Surfer]

4 hours ago, Ilunga said:

As for Iran l, refer to my post about Iran, maybe if the British and Americans didn't help overthrow a democratically elected government in Iran, the women there wouldn't be forced to cover their faces when they go outside.

 

If I had a simplification statement?

 

There would be more places in the world where people are free to decide for themselves whether their face should be covered. 

 

 

Colonization, perversions of it, have long been an overriding problem. Contributing problem!  Were the Greeks the first to try to practice democracy as a concept?  Realistic, or just honestly for that matter, Western countries since the 20's and 30's have 'propagandized' that implanting democracy was a stated goal. Yet not the only problem.  Really, they wanted poor countries cheaper resources, labour markets, tax bases. A Saddam Hussein arsewhole was an opportunity to steal Iraqi oil. Impart control to markets lost when that Iranian democracy collapsed ten years plus earlier. US initially sponsored democracy in Iran was not just overthrown because it was a veiled colony, even though an obvious part of the problem.

 

Pakistan has been largely democratic for an extended time.  Feudal conflicts still have massive effects under the surface; its not particularly free. Colleges where women don't wear masks have been targets for suicide bombers this, and most recent years. India was a democracy when extrajudicial ransacking of Punjabi's happened in the 80's. Genocide in the former Yugoslavia, cartels in Latin America says its not just a ME problem. Old world leaders, organizations who fight militantly for control, still hold massive influence. 

 

The US may not be all that free as soon as next January? 

 

With any luck Palestinians will be more so. So too will Jewish & Ukrainian citizens.     

[Ilunga]

30 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Look?

 

There is, repeating myself, zero doubt Palestinians have been victimized by what is going on. Also that Israel has acted immorally and against many laws. Yet this is clearly also true of Hamas.  More so in my opinion, but that's just opinion.  The sheer # of dead as a result is disappointing regardless if you are a supporter, or independent of any position. 

 

As for explanations. Specifically by Jews or close supporters. They have a right to those opinions.  If I spent my life growing up supporting a political party? That start making extra judicial decisions, strategic war & policy moves against my values. I would be upset.  If I were Israeli, I would NOT be voting Likud. Pre-dating Oct 7.  Your own people executing policy in a way that does not reflect your morals would piss you off. I'd be upset, betrayed. Yet, they were voted in and for the moment there is little you can do.  Except add your voice of protest which I have a lot of time for. It can and does put pressure on those parties & the govt. So protest they should.

 

Thats better than in Turkey, for example @Super19 . Or Russia where these rights are being limited, outlawed. They have no chance of making inroads. Certainly better than Gaza, where I don't believe contradicting Sinwar is an option for most. 

 

The primary answer to your question is these people are trying to make a difference, and probably are pretty educated on issues.  I argue, being close to the issue, may also make them over react in calling it Apartheid for reasons I don't need to quote again from previous posts. Thats a second answer & a third is that it gets everyone's attention. Even if over proportioned as a description, I also would like to reign in illegal activity by Israel. I also would rather they use measures other than lambasting Gaza with bombs and incendiary death of citizens to hunt Hamas. The collateral damage is way too high. 

 

 

As for other people around the world; those who oppose or are upset by Israel's behaviour.  

 

Part is demographic. There are about 120 or 121 Muslim people on this Earth for every Jew. Just shy of 2 Billion versus about $16.5 million. I could not guess but using the popular logic of the 80/20 rule? Most grew up with the Muslim side of the story.  Who owned the land, how it was proportioned. When other Muslims were victimized. I don't understand how palestinian people can believe only they have a right to the land? Jews were there a thousand years before Islam existed.

 

There is going to be bias on population figures alone. 

 

Part is cultural, which compounds the first part; which could easily have been written in reverse. Adherence to religion is of substantially higher discipline. Possibly a poor word?  Than the Western World, which is trending away from religion. A poor because people in control, school virtually everybody in control methods based on religion being important. Included is that an overwhelming proportion of Muslim populations are in 3rd and 4th world countries. Ones without such active means of protest, freedom of speech, access to alternate views.  Worse, in many militant countries. They cannot operate a shop, unless you pay the toll to the local militants that provide 'security?' Discipline to religion again a poor word when it is perverted for messaging. Not all Muslims accept perversion. Many are horrified an influenceable foot soldier would think he can go to heaven for killing & raping Jews Oct 7. Yet enough do believe it, are recruited into militance. Believe they have to do what the community tells them. 

 

Part is social media, news bias, bot farms, yup, that word propaganda. On repeat 24/7.  Advertising knows the benefits of conditional messaging.  It knows even more so the value of repetitive messaging. Russia spent billions of dollars on bot farms, arguably won Donald Trumps first election for him? They, plus media moguls around the world have a vested interest. Aussie Rupert Murdoch responsible for as much fake news, as has ever been spun on repeat! Then people like Don say everything is fake, even that is fake?    

 

Part three continued; college kids, as an example, around the world have access to the crimes Israel does commit. Others? Want to be conscientious. Have heard stories about boogeyman Islamic terrorists their whole life. Weapons of mass destruction being illegitimate can poison that everything you used to hear is fake. As rafts of suggestion there is credible oppression becomes pounded into their blue tooth headphones, populates their smart phone screens. They take to the streets. Its popular, queers for Palestine suggests everyone are not educated?

 

Look again? Regardless of whether a cross dressing activist would be welcomed in a Gazan Mosque? They have a right to oppose what victimization, collateral damage does occur. Empathy is welcome regardless of whether it might be returned!   

 

I just don't see it as one side, the Jewish, are guilty because someone posted an article. 

 

 

 

 

Part 4 & 5 are geopolitics.

 

Topics for another day. 

 

            

 

Thanks for the comprehensive and honest assessment, on your part in answering my question.

 

To cut to the chase, since he Oslo accords where both sides agreed to certain terms, the PLO recognised Isreals right to exist as a state and renounced violence.

Isreal promised not to take any more land and reneged on that promise.

 

Certain Palestinians then resorted to violence, the PLO tried to hold them accountable and eventually both sides failed to live up to their side of the bargain.

It's pretty obvious that the catalyst is Isreal continually illegally taking Palestinians land.

Even their best friend the US condemns the illegal settlements.

Netanyahu has bragged he is proud to have prevented a Palestinian state. 

 

I have provided evidence in past posts for all of this. 

 

Isreal has a right to exist as a self governing free society.

Palestinians have the right to self determination and a free society.

 

One of these groups of people don't have that.

People keep coming up with excuses for why the Palestinians don't deserve what the Isrealis have. 

They live under a form of oppression, whatever you want to call it.

 

That's why I used quotes from an ex Isreali PM that stated this.

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

3 hours ago, Super19 said:

Nobody knew Hamas was throwing people off rooftops before they knew that Hamas beheaded 40 babies. 

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/10/13/watching-the-watchdogs-babies-and-truth-die-together-in-israel-palestine

"JOE BIDEN KEEPS REPEATING HIS FALSE CLAIM THAT HE SAW PICTURES OF BEHEADED BABIES

Many atrocities were committed during the Hamas-led attacks on October 7. Yet the president of the United States continues to repeat debunked falsehoods.

ON OCTOBER 11, four days after the Hamas-led attacks in Israel, President Joe Biden addressed a group of Jewish community leaders in the Indian Treaty Room of the Executive Office Building in Washington, D.C. “I’ve been doing this a long time,” Biden said. “I never really thought that I would see and have confirmed pictures of terrorists beheading children.”

It was a jarring statement. And it was false.

Biden had seen no such pictures, nor received any such confirmation. He made those comments after Nicole Zedeck, a journalist for Israel’s i24 News, reported that 40 babies had been decapitated, citing Israeli soldiers at the scene of the attacks at Kfar Aza. A spokesperson for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu subsequently stated that babies and toddlers had been found with their “heads decapitated.”

Three hours later, Biden promoted the claim to the world and asserted he personally saw pictures of the horrifying scene, giving the story supreme legitimacy."

https://theintercept.com/2023/12/14/israel-biden-beheaded-babies-false/

 

40 babies was false, debunked. An overreaction when reports came out.

 

Babies were found without their heads. They were small, possibly just explosions? Armed groups marauding through Kibitzes & the Dance Rave festival, slaughtering groups hiding in bunkers, fields, houses, rape and mutilation on a mass scale all well documented.  The German / Jewish tattoo artist who was taken captive, paraded through Gaza. Her body was found mutilated.    

 

Disinformation does not help your argument. Just like it did not help the 40 dead baby story cause.

[Super19]

@Canuck SurferI get that you wish Israel not be as heavy handed in their bombardment, but what is their plan? How do they reach their goals? Which are 1) retrieve hostages 2) eliminate Hamas 3) protect Israel's security.

 

Is ceasefire and diplomacy not the best option, especially after 100+ days of Israel getting retribution for Oct 7, which has done more harm than good - but I get it, Israel needed to respond to Oct 7, especially after their failure of not capturing or killing all the factions led by Hamas on Oct 7 while they were still in Israel.

[Canuck Surfer]

1 minute ago, Ilunga said:

One of these groups of people don't have that.  

 

Which one?

 

Palestinians have been offered a two state solution at least 5 times historically.

 

I apologize for picking the 'one' spot in this larger post.

 

3 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Thanks for the comprehensive and honest assessment, on your part in answering my question.

 

To cut to the chase, since he Oslo accords where both sides agreed to certain terms, the PLO recognised Isreals right to exist as a state and renounced violence.

Isreal promised not to take any more land and reneged on that promise.

 

Certain Palestinians then resorted to violence, the PLO tried to hold them accountable and eventually both sides failed to live up to their side of the bargain.

It's pretty obvious that the catalyst is Isreal continually illegally taking Palestinians land.

Even their best friend the US condemns the illegal settlements.

Netanyahu has bragged he is proud to have prevented a Palestinian state. 

 

I have provided evidence in past posts for all of this. 

 

Isreal has a right to exist as a self governing free society.

Palestinians have the right to self determination and a free society.

 

One of these groups of people don't have that.

People keep coming up with excuses for why the Palestinians don't deserve what the Isrealis have. 

They live under a form of oppression, whatever you want to call it.

 

That's why I used quotes from an ex Isreali PM that stated this.

 

 

 

I think this is a great, and an appreciated post.  A past prime minister calling for Israel to act legally is substantial. 

[Ilunga]

14 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

If I had a simplification statement?

 

There would be more places in the world where people are free to decide for themselves whether their face should be covered. 

 

 

Colonization, perversions of it, have long been an overriding problem. Contributing problem!  Were the Greeks the first to try to practice democracy as a concept?  Realistic, or just honestly for that matter, Western countries since the 20's and 30's have 'propagandized' that implanting democracy was a stated goal. Yet not the only problem.  Really, they wanted poor countries cheaper resources, labour markets, tax bases. A Saddam Hussein arsewhole was an opportunity to steal Iraqi oil. Impart control to markets lost when that Iranian democracy collapsed ten years plus earlier. US initially sponsored democracy in Iran was not just overthrown because it was a veiled colony, even though an obvious part of the problem.

 

Pakistan has been largely democratic for an extended time.  Feudal conflicts still have massive effects under the surface; its not particularly free. Colleges where women don't wear masks have been targets for suicide bombers this, and most recent years. India was a democracy when extrajudicial ransacking of Punjabi's happened in the 80's. Genocide in the former Yugoslavia, cartels in Latin America says its not just a ME problem. Old world leaders, organizations who fight militantly for control, still hold massive influence. 

 

The US may not be all that free as soon as next January? 

 

With any luck Palestinians will be more so. So too will Jewish & Ukrainian citizens.     

 

This is a solid post, I didn't want to " like " it because it illustrates the worst of our species.

 

As for democracy let's start with here in Aus, do you really believe we live in a real democracy, where there is a 2 party political system, those parties choose their candidates...and we have political lobbying ?

Did you see that 4 corners report on Political lobbying a few years back, without getting right into it, as one lobbyist stated, why do you think we give these guys so much money. 

The big guys contribute to both parties so they have both their bases covered. 

 

At least here in Aus people are starting to wake up to this BS, that's why there was a " teal " wave at the last election, a lot more independent candidates elected to government. 

 

I won't even talk about the US, a system where a candidate who wins the popular vote does not win the election.

 

Beyond all this, it is the Corporations that hold the real power in our societies, governments are middle management at best.

 

I suggest you watch the Canadian made doco, The Corporation, and its follow up, The New Corporation: The Unfortunately Necessary Sequel. They used to be on SBS on demand, I don't know if they still are, content gets changed.

[Canuck Surfer]

1 minute ago, Super19 said:

@Canuck SurferI get that you wish Israel not be as heavy handed in their bombardment, but what is their plan? How do they reach their goals? Which are 1) retrieve hostages 2) eliminate Hamas 3) protect Israel's security.

 

Is ceasefire and diplomacy not the best option, especially after 100+ days of Israel getting retribution for Oct 7, which has done more harm than good - but I get it, Israel needed to respond to Oct 7, especially after their failure of not capturing or killing all the factions led by Hamas on Oct 7 while they were still in Israel.

 

I posted a plan. 

 

Also comprehensive critique of both sides. As well as my conclusion, just my opinion, Hamas is the bigger problem.

 

Hamas is (has been pre invasion) absolutely embedded in Gaza. Less so but still significantly in the West Bank. I share your opinion slaughtering all Palestinians to get to them reprehensible.

 

I view they should have played the long game.  The porous border to Egypt via Sinai should have been demanded to be closed, including tunnels. By force if necessary, I don't believe they would have contested this, as much as its also aggression. The embargo, save controlled humanitarian aid, ramped up, not down.  IMO Gaza was never a jail, but should have been again after Oct 7.  Invite any and all refugee's to leave in to controlled points, no ship or airline to land.  Till hostages were returned, leaders surrendered.  Its idealistic.  Its not a great plan if I'm being honest? It needs discussion, but leadership and communication as a start is better than bombs.

 

Yet re-advertising  their offer from 2005/06 of a Palestinian state, now as a 5 or ten year plan?  Offer to use internationally invited peace keepers with them at border points.  Including Palestinian ones, also to patrol the West Bank.  Israeli police, or IDF, are not allowed to shoot protestors, only to patrol with Palestinian & neutral peace keepers.  Said peace keepers to close down tunnels, homesteads that hide terrorists (which do exist) as you move progressively to a Palestinian and neutral police force, moving to independence.  

 

Simultaneously offering empowerment of justice to investigate settler & other crimes holding Israeli sides accountable.

 

If no offer to negotiate, with legitimate structure on offer is accepted?  Perhaps an invasion was impossible to avoid.  

 

It would have made a difference in world opinion.

[Canuck Surfer]

1 minute ago, Canuck Surfer said:

By force if necessary, I don't believe they would have contested this, as much as its also aggression.

 

They being Egypt.

 

Let Israel close down the Raffa crossing.  I don't believe Egypt would have contested. May have even granted, with international pressure.

 

Egypt has repeatedly said it does not want Palestinian refugee's.  Too many militants, when they have too many of their own problems. Another reason it may have been granted. If Israel was willing to take responsibility for refugee's? Then the pressure becomes on Hamas.

 

World view could not have accepted Oct 7 if Israel had shown better leadership in its response. 

[Ilunga]

19 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Which one?

 

Palestinians have been offered a two state solution at least 5 times historically.

 

I apologize for picking the 'one' spot in this larger post.

 

 

I think this is a great, and an appreciated post.  A past prime minister calling for Israel to act legally is substantial. 

 

As I stated, I will go as far back as the Oslo peace accords when the Palestinians finally agreed to recognise Isreal and renounce violence, for the main they tried their best to do so.

They tried to police their fellow Palestinians, very small minority, that broke promise.

Isreal never lived up to their promise of not to continue taking land. 

 

There have been a few Isreali PM's going as far back as the mid 1970's when Yitzhak Rabin made this  statements 

 

" In a previously unpublicized interview, Isreals fifth Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin can be heard calling the still nascent west bank settler movement, comparable to cancer, and warning that Isreal risked becoming an arpartheid state if it annexed and absorbed the west bank population "

 

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-1976-interview-rabin-likens-settlements-to-cancer-warns-of-apartheid/

 

How about Ehud Olmert, another Ex Isreali PM, when he states 

 

 " We can't afford to continue to live under circumstances where there are millions of people without rights which we occupy without giving them the basic elementary rights that they deserve, I feel that we are coming close to the point where Israel will be perceived as an apartheid country " 

 

 

https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/3/16/23639947/palestine-netanyahu-israel-protests-ehud-olmert

 

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

1 hour ago, Ilunga said:

In a previously unpublicized interview, Isreals fifth Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin can be heard calling the still nascent west bank settler movement, comparable to cancer, and warning that Isreal risked becoming an arpartheid state if it annexed and absorbed the west bank population "

 

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-1976-interview-rabin-likens-settlements-to-cancer-warns-of-apartheid/

 

How about Ehud Olmert, another Ex Isreali PM, when he states 

 

 " We can't afford to continue to live under circumstances where there are millions of people without rights which we occupy without giving them the basic elementary rights that they deserve, I feel that we are coming close to the point where Israel will be perceived as an apartheid country " 

 

 

https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/3/16/23639947/palestine-netanyahu-israel-protests-ehud-olmert

 

I suppose it begs the question?

 

When they were prime minister?  Why did they not kick the Settlers out & stick them in jail.  Have them lose their life's savings if that is what they invested. Prosecute them. Hangtie settlement violence. Or did it not happen when they they were in power? Its easy to criticize after the fact; or when in opposition. 

 

Posturing if not complicit.

 

Arrest more than just rock hurling 13 year olds, and suicide bombers from the other side.  Which begs the reverse question. Why were there suicide bombers and guys like Sinwar being arrested around the time of Camp David?  Why were palestinian authorities equally not arresting those executing terror, hijacking. I'll have to do some research.  I am not sure Israel was the only only infringing party. I do know Palestinians started wars directly after 2006.  Both sides should be policing the red line.

 

But I'll look. 

 

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

My memory serves too many militants simply jumped on to Hamas.

 

Legitimizing the govt. would have meant all the old backward hustles would have had to have given up their sources of income, power. A view where it was easy for Arafat to come clean; he already had billions. Probably made money on the agreements & had lived life ruling by the sword. Yasir was easy to distrust. 

 

But I'll look.

[Optimist Prime]

World / Middle East

 

Freed Israeli hostage says she was held in Gaza hospital with dozens of others

 

 

Quote

She told Cooper that while her family had become separated in the chaos of the attacks, the four of them had been reunited in captivity when militants hid them alongside dozens of other hostages being held at Nasser hospital in southern Gaza

Quote

“They brought in an ambulance [and] disguised David as a corpse. They put me in traditional Arab clothes and they put Yuli on me and covered her with a sheet,” she said. “There were about three rooms of hostages [in the hospital]. Each one was 10 to 12 people in it, small rooms, 12 square feet. So not a lot of room.”

It was there where she was eventually reunited with Emma. Hamas militants wanted to film the family “and suddenly I heard a voice of a baby crying outside the door” that sounded like Emma, she said.

 

[Boudrias]

13 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

Hamas has attacked and attacked and attacked and attacked: if it stays in power in Gaza there will be future murders of peaceful folks like at the Peace Festival. 

I think the people of Gaza could hand over hamas pretty easily if they choose to do so. 

At this day in the war, a little over 100 days, I don't see that the cost is too high yet. In the past few weeks in fact, there has been much less of the Gazan civilians lives lost, to stop now is just dumb. Finish the job with as few casualties as possible for a MUCH more stable future for Gaza and for Israel. The worst of it is done, why quit when there is just a little mopping up left to do? Wouldn't that be more callous about the lives already lost, if israel stopped on the 10 yard line, rather than go for the touchdown that will end the game?

 

also: my Niece goes to those kinds of festivals, it could have just as easily have been her on Oct 7th. Since you asked. 

Just found out that my son's father-in-law lost a cousin, murdered by Hamas at the music festival. He also lost much of his family at Auschwitz. 

 

My hope is that there is a greater geopolitical initiative going on. It appears that most of the ME realizes true progress cannot happen if Iran is allowed to continue their disruptive activity by funding insurgencies in various countries. If Iran achieves a functioning nuke their ability to continue their aggressive activity will be assured. That cannot happen. I would not be surprised to see a regime change in Tehran. Hopefully this is done internally but it could be done by military action by a coalition of countries in the ME, aided by the UK and USA.

[RomanPer]

For any future to be peaceful, this is where the change has to start:

 

[Warhippy]

Remind me again how everyone was adamant that Netenyahu would return land once the conflict was over?  Guessing those assurances were a bit premature and there were a lot of confident statements made about this here and elsewhere.

 

The more things change, the more they stay the same.  There's absolutely no chance this decision will lead to further bloodshed in the future.  Of course it won't.

 

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says he has informed the United States that he opposes the establishment of a Palestinian state as part of any postwar scenario, underscoring the deep divisions between the close allies three months into Israel's assault on Gaza that aims to eliminate its Hamas rulers.

Netanyahu vowed to press ahead with the offensive until Israel realizes a "decisive victory over Hamas." He also rejected the idea of Palestinian statehood.

Netanyahu said he had relayed his positions to the Americans.

"In any future arrangement … Israel needs security control all territory west of the Jordan," Netanyahu told a nationally broadcast news conference. "This collides with the idea of sovereignty. What can you do?"

"The prime minister needs to be capable of saying no to our friends," he added.

Edited January 18 by Warhippy

[Super19]

54 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

Remind me again how everyone was adamant that Netenyahu would return land once the conflict was over?  Guessing those assurances were a bit premature and there were a lot of confident statements made about this here and elsewhere.

 

The more things change, the more they stay the same.  There's absolutely no chance this decision will lead to further bloodshed in the future.  Of course it won't.

 

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says he has informed the United States that he opposes the establishment of a Palestinian state as part of any postwar scenario, underscoring the deep divisions between the close allies three months into Israel's assault on Gaza that aims to eliminate its Hamas rulers.

Netanyahu vowed to press ahead with the offensive until Israel realizes a "decisive victory over Hamas." He also rejected the idea of Palestinian statehood.

Netanyahu said he had relayed his positions to the Americans.

"In any future arrangement … Israel needs security control all territory west of the Jordan," Netanyahu told a nationally broadcast news conference. "This collides with the idea of sovereignty. What can you do?"

"The prime minister needs to be capable of saying no to our friends," he added.

Bibi is basically saying "Free(secure) Israel from the river to sea"... the same words Zionists love to accuse as genocidal words, is now effectively being said by Bibi. Wtf.

[Warhippy]

Just now, Super19 said:

Bibi is basically saying "Free(secure) Israel from the river to sea"... the same words Zionists love to accuse as genocidal words, is now effectively being said by Bibi. Wtf.

idgaf what either side says.

 

They're both wrong.

 

But the friendship club seemed very self assured that all would be returned when it was over and now they're finding out that won't be the case.  Will be interesting to see how the US handles this.

[Gurn]

16 hours ago, Super19 said:

This rap by Immortal Technique released in 2003 is still so relevant today. I bolded the line I think you'd like:

 

"How could this be, the land of the free, home of the brave?
Indigenous holocaust, and the home of the slaves
Corporate America, dancin' offbeat to the rhythm
You really think this country, never sponsored terrorism?
Human rights violations, we continue the saga
El Savador and the contras in Nicaragua
And on top of that, you still want to take me to prison
Just cause I won't trade humanity for patriotism"

 

They want to rearrange the whole point of view of the ghetto
The fourth branch of the government, want us to settle
A bandana full of glittering, generality
Fighting for freedom and fighting terror, but what's reality?
Read about the history of the place that we live in
And stop letting corporate news tell lies to your children

 

Flow like the blood of Abraham through the Jews and the Arabs
Broken apart like a woman's heart, abused in a marriage
The brink of holy war, bottled up, like a miscarriage
Embedded correspondents don't tell the source of the tension
And they refuse to even mention, European intervention
Or the massacres in Jenin, the innocent screams
U.S. manufactured missles, and M-16's
Weapon contracts and corrupted American dreams
Media censorship, blocking out the video screens
A continent of oil kingdoms, bought for a bargain
Democracy is just a word, when the people are starvin'
The average citizen, made to be, blind to the reason
A desert full of genocide, where the bodies are freezin'
And the world doesn't believe that you fightin' for freedom
Cause you fucked the Middle East, and gave birth to a demon
It's open season with the CIA, bugging my crib
Trapped in a ghetto region like a Palestinian kid
Where nobody gives a fuck whether you die or you live
I'm tryin' to give the truth, and I know the price is my life
But when I'm gone they'll sing a song about Immortal Technique
Who beheaded the President, and the princes and sheiks
You don't give a fuck about us, I can see through your facade
Like a fallen angel standing in the presence of God
Bitch niggaz scared of the truth, when it looks at you hard