Super19 Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 21 minutes ago, Warhippy said: idgaf what either side says. They're both wrong. But the friendship club seemed very self assured that all would be returned when it was over and now they're finding out that won't be the case. Will be interesting to see how the US handles this. Same way Blinken handles the collective punishment of Palestinians. They'll advise Israel not to, offer crocodile tears for the victims, while simontanously back Israel doing it all. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 1 hour ago, Warhippy said: Remind me again how everyone was adamant that Netenyahu would return land once the conflict was over? Not me. I have said from the start that I worry that northern Gaza and the interior strip 'southeast' of the highway line are likely going to be forfeit to Israel as reparations/spoils of war/buffer zone against future aggression from Gaza. I have not seen anything to say that WILL happen, but I would not doubt it is going to be the case. Is there something new in the news aside from a vocal minority talking about settling Gaza? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 7 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said: Not me. I have said from the start that I worry that northern Gaza and the interior strip 'southeast' of the highway line are likely going to be forfeit to Israel as reparations/spoils of war/buffer zone against future aggression from Gaza. I have not seen anything to say that WILL happen, but I would not doubt it is going to be the case. Is there something new in the news aside from a vocal minority talking about settling Gaza? Let's wait and see if Bibi even matters a year from now. I guess the other lesson is don't start a war unless you are willing to lose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 12 minutes ago, Bob Long said: Let's wait and see if Bibi even matters a year from now. I guess the other lesson is don't start a war unless you are willing to lose. My best guess is that 1.2 to 1.4 civilians have been killed for every Hamas and Jihadi combatant killed. I really hope that the end of those incredibly high ratios is over and from here on out we can see 10 Hamas to one civvy kind of numbers, or even better than that. Bottom line Hamas needs to be ended, but the people of Gaza need to be protected. Tough order to fill but I think the worst is over in that regard now. I am hopeful that major battle actions will be done in the coming weeks, maybe a few months and at that point perhaps the IDF switches to a phase three where by and large, Gaza is generally peaceful with some targeted incursions for military targets by boots on the ground. I think that is where Bibi is talking about the direction going to..security provided by Israel which means forces on the streets overseeing daily necessities of life work in Gaza for a prolonged future. Again just thinking out loud, but I would imagine that set up would outlive Bibi, most likely, while Gaza is set up for internationally observed/managed elections. Looking at those damage maps, there is going to be a prolonged clean up with miles of dump trucks removing Gaza City from the land brick by brick, from the looks of things, before rebuild can even begin. Could the elimination of Hamas begin an era of a "one state solution"? hrm.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 Guilty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 1 hour ago, Optimist Prime said: My best guess is that 1.2 to 1.4 civilians have been killed for every Hamas and Jihadi combatant killed. I really hope that the end of those incredibly high ratios is over and from here on out we can see 10 Hamas to one civvy kind of numbers, or even better than that. Bottom line Hamas needs to be ended, but the people of Gaza need to be protected. Tough order to fill but I think the worst is over in that regard now. I am hopeful that major battle actions will be done in the coming weeks, maybe a few months and at that point perhaps the IDF switches to a phase three where by and large, Gaza is generally peaceful with some targeted incursions for military targets by boots on the ground. I think that is where Bibi is talking about the direction going to..security provided by Israel which means forces on the streets overseeing daily necessities of life work in Gaza for a prolonged future. Again just thinking out loud, but I would imagine that set up would outlive Bibi, most likely, while Gaza is set up for internationally observed/managed elections. Looking at those damage maps, there is going to be a prolonged clean up with miles of dump trucks removing Gaza City from the land brick by brick, from the looks of things, before rebuild can even begin. Could the elimination of Hamas begin an era of a "one state solution"? hrm.... I hope you're right on the ratio's. It should be obvious to everyone at this point that those are exactly what Hamas wanted, but I'm not sure they wanted Isreal to take over security, which is what I mean by be careful what you start. I just keep thinking that whoever the brain trust in Iran and within Hamas have really screwed up, and this thing won't end anything like they envisioned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 41 minutes ago, Super19 said: Guilty. Are you surprised that Hamas didn't think this could be an outcome of their attack? Assuming this idea actually has legs and Bibi's government survives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 The said Palestine would cease to exist at the current rate of things by 2040 or so. Looks like they were a decade or so off base. Just gonna leave this here and have people tell me how this doesn't somehow fit the exact definitions stated should Israel in fact occupy and annex the size of land they are suggesting. https://rb.gy/2p60xe https://rb.gy/lsly39 Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group, which is contrary to international law. https://rb.gy/o5afad https://rb.gy/mpnzck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 2 minutes ago, Warhippy said: The said Palestine would cease to exist at the current rate of things by 2040 or so. Looks like they were a decade or so off base. Just gonna leave this here and have people tell me how this doesn't somehow fit the exact definitions stated should Israel in fact occupy and annex the size of land they are suggesting. https://rb.gy/2p60xe https://rb.gy/lsly39 Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group, which is contrary to international law. https://rb.gy/o5afad https://rb.gy/mpnzck "should Israel in fact" - so we'll see. Prejudging it is fine in theory, but we'll see if Bibi is actually around this time next year to carry it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Bob Long said: "should Israel in fact" - so we'll see. Prejudging it is fine in theory, but we'll see if Bibi is actually around this time next year to carry it out. Yes, because it is just Bib's fault and not the entire government. Like it is Trudeau's fault and not the entire government. Because him adding hundreds of tens of thousands of sq kilometers of territory and defeating Hamas will somehow be detrimental to his ability to survive yet another election even after everything he has survived in his political career. Edit* IDGAF anymore but the irony of all of this should not be lost on people Edited January 18 by Warhippy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 (edited) Full comment and US response. Bibi/Israel reuses to accept a two state solution or calls for a recognition of Palestinian authority/existence as a region or nation. I point this out because the sheer irony of this belief and statement Edit* IDGAF anymore but the irony of all of this should not be lost on people Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says he has informed the United States that he opposes the establishment of a Palestinian state as part of any postwar scenario, underscoring the deep divisions between the close allies three months into Israel's assault on Gaza that aims to eliminate the territory's Hamas rulers. The U.S. has called on Israel to scale back its offensive and said that the establishment of a Palestinian state should be part of the "day after." But in a nationally broadcast news conference, Netanyahu vowed to press ahead with the offensive until Israel realizes a "decisive victory over Hamas." He also rejected the idea of Palestinian statehood. Netanyahu, who leads a far-right government opposed to Palestinian statehood, repeated his longstanding opposition to a two-state solution. He said a Palestinian state would become a launching pad for attacks on Israel. He said Israel "must have security control over the entire territory west of the Jordan River," adding: That collides with the idea of sovereignty. What can we do?" "This truth I tell to our American friends, and I put the brakes on the attempt to coerce us to a reality that would endanger the state of Israel," he said. Netanyahu said he had relayed his positions to the Americans. "The prime minister needs to be capable of saying no to our friends," he added. Israel launched the offensive after an unprecedented cross-border attack led by Hamas on Oct. 7 that killed approximately 1,200 people, according to the Israeli government, while militants took some 250 others hostage in Gaza. Roughly 130 hostages are believed by Israel to remain in captivity. Israel's assault, one of the deadliest and most destructive military campaigns in recent history, has killed nearly 25,000 Palestinians, according to Gaza health authorities, caused widespread destruction and uprooted over 80 per cent of the territory's 2.3 million people from their homes. The comments prompted an immediate rebuke from the White House. Spokesperson John Kirby said that President Joe Biden would "not stop working" toward a two-state solution and that it was in the best interest of Israelis, Palestinians and the entire region. "The focus right now is making sure that Israel has what it needs to defend itself against Hamas and that humanitarian aid and assistance continue to get to the desperate people of Gaza," Kirby said during an informal briefing with reporters aboard Air Force One. "But there's going to be a post-conflict Gaza," he said, telling reporters the U.S. has been clear that Israel should not reoccupy the territory and that the Biden administration supports governance that "represents the aspirations of the Palestinian people." U.S. State Department spokesperson Matthew Miller said there is "no way" to solve Israel's long-term security challenges in the region and the short-term challenges of rebuilding Gaza without the establishment of a Palestinian state. Speaking at a news briefing, Miller said Israel had an opportunity right now as countries in the region were ready to provide security assurances to Israel. "But there is no way to solve their long-term challenges to provide lasting security and there is no way to solve the short-term challenges of rebuilding Gaza and establishing governance in Gaza and providing security for Gaza without the establishment of a Palestinian state." The U.S. has said the internationally recognized Palestinian Authority, which governs semi-autonomous zones in the Israeli-occupied West Bank, should be "revitalized" and return to Gaza. Hamas ousted the authority from Gaza in 2007. The U.S. has also called for steps toward the establishment of a Palestinian state. The Palestinians seek Gaza, the West Bank and east Jerusalem for their state. Those areas were captured by Israel in 1967. The U.S. is Israel's largest supplier of weapons and has been supportive of its war against Hamas. But Biden, speaking in unusually strong language last month, warned Israel risks losing global support because of its "indiscriminate bombing'' of Gaza. The staggering cost of the war has led to increasing calls from the international community to halt the offensive. Israel is facing accusations, in a case South Africa brought before the International Court of Justice (ICJ) last week, that its military operations in Gaza are "genocidal in character" and intended to bring about the destruction of Palestinians — allegations Israel rejected as "grossly distorted." South Africa is seeking provisional measures to prevent further harm to civilians in Gaza. Edited January 18 by Warhippy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoshiyoshi Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 1 hour ago, Optimist Prime said: My best guess is that 1.2 to 1.4 civilians have been killed for every Hamas and Jihadi combatant killed. I really hope that the end of those incredibly high ratios is over and from here on out we can see 10 Hamas to one civvy kind of numbers, or even better than that. Bottom line Hamas needs to be ended, but the people of Gaza need to be protected. Tough order to fill but I think the worst is over in that regard now. I am hopeful that major battle actions will be done in the coming weeks, maybe a few months and at that point perhaps the IDF switches to a phase three where by and large, Gaza is generally peaceful with some targeted incursions for military targets by boots on the ground. I think that is where Bibi is talking about the direction going to..security provided by Israel which means forces on the streets overseeing daily necessities of life work in Gaza for a prolonged future. Again just thinking out loud, but I would imagine that set up would outlive Bibi, most likely, while Gaza is set up for internationally observed/managed elections. Looking at those damage maps, there is going to be a prolonged clean up with miles of dump trucks removing Gaza City from the land brick by brick, from the looks of things, before rebuild can even begin. Could the elimination of Hamas begin an era of a "one state solution"? hrm.... Correct me if im wrong, but i thought the 1.2 to 1 ratio of civilian to combatant deaths was already really low for a war(especially in an urban environment) and that the average was around 10 civliians to combatant deaths in war. In order to see anything better, the civilian population needs to be removed from the battlefield which doesnt seem to be an option as they would most likely have to be evacuated to Egypt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 48 minutes ago, Bob Long said: "should Israel in fact" - so we'll see. Prejudging it is fine in theory, but we'll see if Bibi is actually around this time next year to carry it out. I can't believe someone can claim that Palestinians will disappear by 2040. The population that exploded into millions since 1948 will suddenly disappear in 16 years? But they will say anything to push their agenda. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 2 minutes ago, RomanPer said: I can't believe someone can claim that Palestinians will disappear by 2040. The population that exploded into millions since 1948 will suddenly disappear in 16 years? But they will say anything to push their agenda. You don't have to like it. That's the point. Experts have tabled the suggestion that at current rates of settlement that Palestine as suggested would cease to exist in any format by around 2040 or so. Your opinion on this doesn't matter because the reality is land keeps getting annexed and that results in the loss of territory. Should this continue in its current format; Palestine by any metric will cease to exist within 20 years by estimates regardless of your feelings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 20 minutes ago, Yoshiyoshi said: Correct me if im wrong, but i thought the 1.2 to 1 ratio of civilian to combatant deaths was already really low for a war(especially in an urban environment) and that the average was around 10 civliians to combatant deaths in war. In order to see anything better, the civilian population needs to be removed from the battlefield which doesnt seem to be an option as they would most likely have to be evacuated to Egypt. it is, i think, low for the situation, but I don't think anyone here wants innocent Gazans to die. I certainly don't. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 1 hour ago, Warhippy said: Yes, because it is just Bib's fault and not the entire government. Like it is Trudeau's fault and not the entire government. Because him adding hundreds of tens of thousands of sq kilometers of territory and defeating Hamas will somehow be detrimental to his ability to survive yet another election even after everything he has survived in his political career. Edit* IDGAF anymore but the irony of all of this should not be lost on people I do think Bibi holds more power than Trudeau, but yes it is government decision making. Imo this is the hardliners staking out an extreme negotiation position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 46 minutes ago, RomanPer said: I can't believe someone can claim that Palestinians will disappear by 2040. The population that exploded into millions since 1948 will suddenly disappear in 16 years? But they will say anything to push their agenda. Yea i don't see it, even if a far right wing guy says something to whip up the base or try to set early negotiation terms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 14 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said: I suppose it begs the question? When they were prime minister? Why did they not kick the Settlers out & stick them in jail. Have them lose their life's savings if that is what they invested. Prosecute them. Hangtie settlement violence. Or did it not happen when they they were in power? Its easy to criticize after the fact; or when in opposition. Posturing if not complicit. Arrest more than just rock hurling 13 year olds, and suicide bombers from the other side. Which begs the reverse question. Why were there suicide bombers and guys like Sinwar being arrested around the time of Camp David? Why were palestinian authorities equally not arresting those executing terror, hijacking. I'll have to do some research. I am not sure Israel was the only only infringing party. I do know Palestinians started wars directly after 2006. Both sides should be policing the red line. But I'll look. Answer this simple question, how can the Palestinians form a viable state when Isreal keeps taking more and more land from them ? The international community, including Isreals best friend the US condemns them for doing this. Apart from S19, Gurn and Hippy no one in this thread wants to deal with this fact. In fact people in this thread defend Isreal for taking land, and find reasons not to give land, that has been stolen, back. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 1 hour ago, Warhippy said: You don't have to like it. That's the point. Experts have tabled the suggestion that at current rates of settlement that Palestine as suggested would cease to exist in any format by around 2040 or so. Your opinion on this doesn't matter because the reality is land keeps getting annexed and that results in the loss of territory. Should this continue in its current format; Palestine by any metric will cease to exist within 20 years by estimates regardless of your feelings. But isn't it important to ask why they keep losing territory? Not the west bank part, but the overall picture since 48? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 2 hours ago, Bob Long said: Are you surprised that Hamas didn't think this could be an outcome of their attack? Assuming this idea actually has legs and Bibi's government survives. They're not surprised that Bibi wants to occupy and secure the land... they've been saying Bibi wants this all along Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 Just now, Super19 said: They're not surprised that Bibi wants to occupy and secure the land... they've been saying Bibi wants this all along So then why hand him the keys? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 5 hours ago, RomanPer said: For any future to be peaceful, this is where the change has to start: No, it has to start on both sides. The Palestinians that hate/ dislike Isrealis have to have their minds changed. The Isrealis that have and are continuing to settle illegally on Palestinian land have to stop taking land, and that land has to be given back to the Palestinians so they can form a viable state. Palestinians also have to be granted Autonomy in East Jerusalem in regards to making that the future capital of a Palestinian state. Compromise cuts 2 ways. They call this place the Holy land. When using this word in the context of dismay, Holy crap, this is a messed up situation, it sure is the holy land. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 10 minutes ago, Bob Long said: But isn't it important to ask why they keep losing territory? Not the west bank part, but the overall picture since 48? In the last 30 years we can see clearly it is because Israeli settlers keep stealing and annexing land with the approval of their government and with the assistance or protection of the IDF You uh, wanna address that or? I recall a number of voices here being adamant that Israel wouldn't keep or steal land while they were in fact doing so in the west bank while bombing Gaza now you have the government effectively saying they will never recognize Palestinian soveriegnty or land rights. So will you address that or nah? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 10 minutes ago, Bob Long said: So then why hand him the keys? They probably think they've given Nentanyahu the keys to his own demise by putting Israel into a bind which seems to be unfolding. Any ceasefire and diplomacy and 2 state solution will be seen as a loss for Bibi. Yet to continue this path fighting Hamas, has put Israel in the hot seat at the Hague as they risk becoming Pariahs with allegations of genocide against them - all whilst after 100 days of destruction Bibi has not accomplished a single goal yet through this ferocious IDF operation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 3 hours ago, Optimist Prime said: Not me. I have said from the start that I worry that northern Gaza and the interior strip 'southeast' of the highway line are likely going to be forfeit to Israel as reparations/spoils of war/buffer zone against future aggression from Gaza. I have not seen anything to say that WILL happen, but I would not doubt it is going to be the case. Is there something new in the news aside from a vocal minority talking about settling Gaza? That's a pretty vocal minority as vocal minorities tend to be. And they usually wield power that is disproportionate to the amount of numbers they have, especially nationalist minorities, which is what the settler movement and some others in Isreal that back them are. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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