Hamas attacking Israel

[Bob Long]

5 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

In the last 30 years we can see clearly it is because Israeli settlers keep stealing and annexing land with the approval of their government and with the assistance or protection of the IDF

 

You uh, wanna address that or?

 

sure, I don't like it. 

 

5 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

I recall a number of voices here being adamant that Israel wouldn't keep or steal land while they were in fact doing so in the west bank while bombing Gaza now you have the government effectively saying they will never recognize Palestinian soveriegnty or land rights.

 

So will you address that or nah?

 

"steal". Interesting word, that. 

 

So in war, is taking land stealing? we've discussed this before. Hamas initiated this attack, I'm sure you'd agree with that. Hamas is the official government of Gaza's, no argument there I presume.

 

So one side loses. How is that 'stealing'? 

 

[Bob Long]

5 minutes ago, Super19 said:

They probably think they've given Nentanyahu the keys to his own demise by putting Israel into a bind which seems to be unfolding. Any ceasefire and diplomacy and 2 state solution will be seen as a loss for Bibi. Yet to continue this path fighting Hamas, has put Israel in the hot seat at the Hague as they risk becoming Pariahs with allegations of genocide against them - all whilst after 100 days of destruction Bibi has not accomplished a single goal yet through this ferocious IDF operation. 

 

if that was Hamas'/Iran's plan, its not a very good one. 

[Warhippy]

23 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

So then why hand him the keys?

Who is they?

 

Innocent palestinians losing homes and land to settlers?

 

Before you say Hamas don't be so quick about this.  Because I could also easily then say Israelis allow accept and are happy to see the erosion of palestinian land and rights.  Or that cambodians in the60s and 70s were cool with Pohl Pot.  Or that when Pierre takes over Canada we're all Conservatives who approve of him and his message. A people are not their government.  As Palestine has not had a legal or lawful election and all records indicate that the last one they had was in fact fudged; one can not say that palestinians have brought this on themselves anymore than one can say Afghanis are all taliban supporters

Edited January 19 by Warhippy

[Warhippy]

8 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

sure, I don't like it. 

 

 

"steal". Interesting word, that. 

 

So in war, is taking land stealing? we've discussed this before. Hamas initiated this attack, I'm sure you'd agree with that. Hamas is the official government of Gaza's, no argument there I presume.

 

So one side loses. How is that 'stealing'? 

 

Remember you're talking to a first nations individual right now so be very careful with your choice of words regarding land theft, annexation or the like.

 

You're echoing or advocating the right for the loss of what is moe than 1/3 of all remaining palestinian land while ignoring that settlement building is still ongoing by saying "i don't like it" yet are in approval of the loss of that much land.

 

Quick question.  How many are displaced from gaza since the conflict started?  When Israel takes control of this amount of land, how many more will be displaced?  Where will they now go?  The west bank areas?  So what...a million, maybe 2 million shoved in to an area that is currently shrinking without the means to support themselves, shelter; food etc.

 

This is going to be a massive humanitarian crisis and one in which Israel has shown little desire to allow assistance to arrive in.

 

You kind of need to understand the totality of this issue because this is what you're saying is ok happening, while also saying you don't like it.

 

And please don't give me that "cart before the horse" argument.  It has happened, it is happening and this is exactly what the Israeli government has stated will happen.  Not Bibi.  The Israeli government.  As nobody has decided to tell him no or collapse the government; this is effectively them saying it's all good keep up the good work.

[Bob Long]

5 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

Who is they?

 

Innocent palestinians losing homes and land to settlers?

 

Yes innocent people are hurting. Its exactly what Hamas hoped for. 

 

5 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

Before you say Hamas don't be so quick about this.  Because I could also easily then say Israelis allow accept and are happy to see the erosion of palestinian land and rights.  Or that cambodians in the60s and 70s were cool with Pohl Pot.  Or that when Pierre takes over Canada we're all Conservatives who approve of him and his message. A people are not their government.  As Palestine has not had a legal or lawful election and all records indicate that the last one they had was in fact fudged; one can not say that palestinians have brought this on themselves anymore than one can say Afghanis are all taliban supporters

 

Except we know before this all started this time (Oct 7) that a majority of Israelis polled wanted a 2 state solution. 

 

And who hasn't allowed lawful elections? oh right, Hamas. 

 

IMO this is all initiated and backed by the current Iranian leadership. 

 

 

[Bob Long]

3 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

Remember you're talking to a first nations individual right now so be very careful with your choice of words regarding land theft, annexation or the like.

 

And I'd say that is a thin comparison. First Nations Canadians experience is nothing like whats happened since 1948 in Isreal. Sorry. 

 

3 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

You're echoing or advocating the right for the loss of what is moe than 1/3 of all remaining palestinian land while ignoring that settlement building is still ongoing by saying "i don't like it" yet are in approval of the loss of that much land.

 

Pretty sure I'm not but whatever. 

 

3 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

Quick question.  How many are displaced from gaza since the conflict started?  When Israel takes control of this amount of land, how many more will be displaced?  Where will they now go?  The west bank areas?  So what...a million, maybe 2 million shoved in to an area that is currently shrinking without the means to support themselves, shelter; food etc.

 

This is going to be a massive humanitarian crisis and one in which Israel has shown little desire to allow assistance to arrive in.

 

You kind of need to understand the totality of this issue because this is what you're saying is ok happening, while also saying you don't like it.

 

And please don't give me that "cart before the horse" argument.  It has happened, it is happening and this is exactly what the Israeli government has stated will happen.  Not Bibi.  The Israeli government.  As nobody has decided to tell him no or collapse the government; this is effectively them saying it's all good keep up the good work.

 

Again, point this at Hamas. 

 

Edited January 19 by Bob Long

[Ilunga]

3 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

My best guess is that 1.2 to 1.4 civilians have been killed for every Hamas and Jihadi combatant killed. I really hope that the end of those incredibly high ratios is over and from here on out we can see 10 Hamas to one civvy kind of numbers, or even better than that. Bottom line Hamas needs to be ended, but the people of Gaza need to be protected. Tough order to fill but I think the worst is over in that regard now. I am hopeful that major battle actions will be done in the coming weeks, maybe a few months and at that point perhaps the IDF switches to a phase three where by and large, Gaza is generally peaceful with some targeted incursions for military targets by boots on the ground. I think that is where Bibi is talking about the direction going to..security provided by Israel which means forces on the streets overseeing daily necessities of life work in Gaza for a prolonged future. Again just thinking out loud, but I would imagine that set up would outlive Bibi, most likely, while Gaza is set up for internationally observed/managed elections. Looking at those damage maps, there is going to be a prolonged clean up with miles of dump trucks removing Gaza City from the land brick by brick, from the looks of things, before rebuild can even begin.

 

Could the elimination of Hamas begin an era of a "one state solution"? hrm....

 

Well Isreal states that it is killing 2 civilians for every Hamas militant, 

and also states " that this is a  " tremendously positive " ratio 

 

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/05/middleeast/israel-hamas-military-civilian-ratio-killed-intl-hnk/index.html

 

Tremendous isn't a word I would use in the context of killing women and children.

 

Also a study commissioned by retired army general McChrystal, " which said that for every civilian killed 10 terrorists are recruited, by that number Isreal has killed 5,000 Hamas terrorists but in the process they have recruited about 100,000 new adherents. 

And this is bad news for Isreal. "

 

These figures are from an article dated 12/05/23

 

Like many of us have Ben stating, what Isreal is doing in Gaza is only making things worse for everyone involved.

[Super19]

1 minute ago, Bob Long said:

 

if that was Hamas'/Iran's plan, its not a very good one. 

Bibi is saying it will take a year to accomplish their goals. Let's say the numbers of 40k Hamas is true, and just under a max 1/4th have already been eliminated by the IDF, with arguably the hardest stretches still yet to come. Hezbollah has been making some noise on one front, and the IDF have withdrawn one division from Gaza. If Iran/Hezbollah is hell bent on winning this war, Hezbollah will come in full scale if necessary, which will no doubt drag this on longer. And then the head of the snake comes into play, Iran.

Meanwhile, they are saying the ICJ takes 2 years for their verdict. If found guilty? The guys supporting Israel become complicit. Does the US then truly back a ceasefire at such point and force Israel's hand to a well and true 2 state solution? If not guilty, then it could be a big ass war if all these factions get involved (Hezbollah, Iran, US, UK?) What happens at that point when NATO is spread thin with Russia/Ukraine? Are we seriously risking a WW3 with all these tensions and escalations because we hate Hamas AND Palestinian sovereignty that much? 

[Warhippy]

Just now, Bob Long said:

 

Yes innocent people are hurting. Its exactly what Hamas hoped for. 

 

 

Except we know before this all started this time (Oct 7) that a majority of Israelis polled wanted a 2 state solution. 

 

And who hasn't allowed lawful elections? oh right, Hamas. 

 

IMO this is all initiated and backed by the current Iranian leadership. 

 

 

Your opinion is immaterial as at the end of the day it is Israeli forces and palestinian civilians with hamas leadership making bank in all of this.  One could also equally say this is what Israeli leadership hoped for.  I see no difference between the two right now.  

 

While Israelis wanted a 2 state solution, Their government doesn't.  Palestinians will not get one.  They will continue to see settlements happen illegally and continue to lose land.  A million or more displaced individuals will now most likely be shoved in to the west bank with no food or shelter.

 

This is what Israeli leadership is committing to.  With a minority government and nobody willing to topple it, this is effectively the entirety of the government allowing this to happen and if not outright approving it.  Not stopping it.

 

Bibi is going nowhere, this is pretty much a given as he has already survived numerous elections while being up on charges even and came out on top.  With this conflict nearing its end and the area shattered.  He has a lot of momentum backing him and the likelihood of him leaving power any time soon is very minimal.

[Yoshiyoshi]

1 minute ago, Ilunga said:

 

Well Isreal states that it is killing 2 civilians for every Hamas militant, 

and also states " that this is a  " tremendously positive " ratio 

 

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/05/middleeast/israel-hamas-military-civilian-ratio-killed-intl-hnk/index.html

 

Tremendous isn't a word I would use in the context of killing women and children.

 

Also a study commissioned by retired army general McChrystal, " which said that for every civilian killed 10 terrorists are recruited, by that number Isreal has killed 5,000 Hamas terrorists but in the process they have recruited about 100,000 new adherents. 

And this is bad news for Isreal. "

 

These figures are from an article dated 12/05/23

 

Like many of us have Ben stating, what Isreal is doing in Gaza is only making things worse for everyone involved.

Im calling BS on that. If that were true there would be more terrorists than civilians everywhere.

[Bob Long]

1 minute ago, Super19 said:

Bibi is saying it will take a year to accomplish their goals. Let's say the numbers of 40k Hamas is true, and just under a max 1/4th have already been eliminated by the IDF, with arguably the hardest stretches still yet to come. Hezbollah has been making some noise on one front, and the IDF have withdrawn one division from Gaza. If Iran/Hezbollah is hell bent on winning this war, Hezbollah will come in full scale if necessary, which will no doubt drag this on longer. And then the head of the snake comes into play, Iran.

Meanwhile, they are saying the ICJ takes 2 years for their verdict. If found guilty? The guys supporting Israel become complicit. Does the US then truly back a ceasefire at such point and force Israel's hand to a well and true 2 state solution? If not guilty, then it could be a big ass war if all these factions get involved (Hezbollah, Iran, US, UK?) What happens at that point when NATO is spread thin with Russia/Ukraine? Are we seriously risking a WW3 with all these tensions and escalations because we hate Hamas AND Palestinian sovereignty that much? 

 

what is Iran winning, exactly? they don't give a crap about Palestinians. They are pawns in something larger for Iran, as you are clearly pointing out.

 

[Bob Long]

3 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

Your opinion is immaterial as at the end of the day

 

as is yours, and anyone else not directly involved. 

 

3 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

 

it is Israeli forces and palestinian civilians with hamas leadership making bank in all of this.  One could also equally say this is what Israeli leadership hoped for.  I see no difference between the two right now.  

 

While Israelis wanted a 2 state solution, Their government doesn't.  Palestinians will not get one.  They will continue to see settlements happen illegally and continue to lose land.  A million or more displaced individuals will now most likely be shoved in to the west bank with no food or shelter.

 

This is what Israeli leadership is committing to.  With a minority government and nobody willing to topple it, this is effectively the entirety of the government allowing this to happen and if not outright approving it.  Not stopping it.

 

Bibi is going nowhere, this is pretty much a given as he has already survived numerous elections while being up on charges even and came out on top.  With this conflict nearing its end and the area shattered.  He has a lot of momentum backing him and the likelihood of him leaving power any time soon is very minimal.

 

I've always thought a 2 state solution was the right way to go. 

 

I also think based on Gazan's picking Hamas, that this current conflict was inevitable. 

 

I see no conflict with these two ideas.

 

Edited January 19 by Bob Long

[Ilunga]

4 minutes ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

Im calling BS on that. If that were true there would be more terrorists than civilians everywhere.

 

Yes a poster on a hockey forum has more knowledge than a  4 star US army General that was well known for developing and implementing a counter insurgency strategy in Afghanistan. 

 

 

For starters how many terrorists are there in Canada ?

And how many civilians have been killed in relation to their cause.

Ditto Aus 

Ditto GB 

Ditto France

Ditto Germany 

 

Want me to continue ?

[Warhippy]

8 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

as is yours, and anyone else not directly involved. 

 

 

I've always thought a 2 state solution was the right way to go. 

 

I also think based on Gazan's picking Hamas, that this current conflict was inevitable. 

 

I see no conflict with these two ideas.

 

I repeat.  As all records indicate the last election was falsified one can no more say they brought this on themselves without having the ability to have another legal and recognized election to choose a new leader or leading party than they can say that Cambodians willingly and happily embraced the khmer rouge 

[Super19]

4 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

what is Iran winning, exactly? they don't give a crap about Palestinians. They are pawns in something larger for Iran, as you are clearly pointing out.

 

I do find it strange that Iran (Shia) seem so hell bent for Palestine via Hamas (Sunni). Perhaps they see it as asserting dominance in the region by directly opposing the relations between Saudi and Israel? Perhaps they do give a crap about Palestinians? 

[Bob Long]

4 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

I repeat.  As all records indicate the last election was falsified one can no more say they brought this on themselves without having the ability to have another legal and recognized election to choose a new leader or leading party than they can say that Cambodians willingly and happily embraced the khmer rouge 

 

So how do we square that with the reports that Hamas is popular with Gazans?

 

Also if you are correct, don't we need to rid Gazans of Hamas as soon as possible?

[Bob Long]

3 minutes ago, Super19 said:

I do find it strange that Iran (Shia) seem so hell bent for Palestine via Hamas (Sunni). Perhaps they see it as asserting dominance in the region by directly opposing the relations between Saudi and Israel? Perhaps they do give a crap about Palestinians? 

 

Certainly seems like they are willing to sacrifice a lot of them.

[Super19]

5 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

So how do we square that with the reports that Hamas is popular with Gazans?

 

Also if you are correct, don't we need to rid Gazans of Hamas as soon as possible?

On 1/17/2024 at 4:59 PM, Super19 said:

Hamas was elected a long time ago. Only a max of 8% of Gaza+West Bank's current population could/would have voted for Hamas way back when. That's a staggering amount of people in harms way that had no part in electing Hamas. Support is only gaining traction for Hamas in Gaza because, well, right now the IDF look worse to Gazans than Hamas ever did. And Hamas is no government, and I don't see Palestinian people electing terrorists as their government if/when Palestine ever gets its' statehood/freedom.  

 

[Warhippy]

5 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

So how do we square that with the reports that Hamas is popular with Gazans?

 

Also if you are correct, don't we need to rid Gazans of Hamas as soon as possible?

The same way we square that with the reports that Israelis support a two state solution but continue to support governments who refuse to accept Palestine existence and support illegal settlements 

 

Also if I'm correct, why is it Israel knows exactly where hamas leadership is yet will not do anything about it with a clear history of extra curricular activities in other Nations?  Why did they or do they wait?  Does it not give weight to claims that Israeli leadership supports the existence of Hamas to help further their goals?

[Super19]

6 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Certainly seems like they are willing to sacrifice a lot of them.

If there is no ceasefire and diplomacy now, and those escalations do happen, the cost without a shadow of a doubt will be catastrophic across the region. 

[Bob Long]

6 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

The same way we square that with the reports that Israelis support a two state solution but continue to support governments who refuse to accept Palestine existence and support illegal settlements 

 

Also if I'm correct, why is it Israel knows exactly where hamas leadership is yet will not do anything about it with a clear history of extra curricular activities in other Nations?  Why did they or do they wait?  Does it not give weight to claims that Israeli leadership supports the existence of Hamas to help further their goals?

 

I thought the leaders were hiding outside of Gaza somewhere? I'm not sure on this one. 

[Super19]

8 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

The same way we square that with the reports that Israelis support a two state solution but continue to support governments who refuse to accept Palestine existence and support illegal settlements 

 

Also if I'm correct, why is it Israel knows exactly where hamas leadership is yet will not do anything about it with a clear history of extra curricular activities in other Nations?  Why did they or do they wait?  Does it not give weight to claims that Israeli leadership supports the existence of Hamas to help further their goals?

Bibi is doing some great demolition work in Gaza right now...

[Ilunga]

2 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

I thought the leaders were hiding outside of Gaza somewhere? I'm not sure on this one. 

 

Yep just like Netanyahus son draft dodging son hiding out in Miami who by the way is known for his his anti Palestinian rhetoric.

 

And look some more Bullshit, 

Netanyahu claiming he sent his son to fight Hamas in 2023 

 

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2023/10/13/netanyahus-son-joined-israel-defense-forces-in-2014-fact-check/71158828007/

 

 

 

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Ilunga said:

 

Yep just like Netanyahus son draft dodging son hiding out in Miami who by the way is known for his his anti Palestinian rhetoric.

 

And look some more Bullshit, 

Netanyahu claiming he sent his son to fight Hamas in 2023 

 

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2023/10/13/netanyahus-son-joined-israel-defense-forces-in-2014-fact-check/71158828007/

 

 

 

Was it in the movie Troy where we hear the line, “war is old men talking and young men dying”?

I wonder if, because of our western respect for religious leaders, we make the mistake the head people in places like Iran and Gaza actually care about the people they are supposed to represent? 
 

[Ilunga]

7 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Was it in the movie Troy where we hear the line, “war is old men talking and young men dying”?

I wonder if, because of our western respect for religious leaders, we make the mistake the head people in places like Iran and Gaza actually care about the people they are supposed to represent? 
 

 

Sean Beans character,Odysseus,  stated that in Troy.

 

Lots of secular leaders around the world couldn't give a rat's arse about the people they are elected to represent. 

 

I think we all know the obvious elephant in the room in that regard.

He has a good chance of getting his hands on the nuclear codes again in less than a year's time.