Hamas attacking Israel

[Alflives]

4 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Sean Beans character,Odysseus,  stated that in Troy.

 

Lots of secular leaders around the world couldn't give a rat's arse about the people they are elected to represent. 

 

I think we all know the obvious elephant in the room in that regard.

He has a good chance of getting his hands on the nuclear codes again in less than a year's time.

Yup. We need a very well rounded, thorough education, population. All little boys AND GIRLS, need to be going to good schools, where there isn’t state dogma programming them. Sadly too many places brainwash their children.,

[RomanPer]

4 hours ago, Warhippy said:

You don't have to like it.  That's the point.  Experts have tabled the suggestion that at current rates of settlement that Palestine as suggested would cease to exist in any format by around 2040 or so.  Your opinion on this doesn't matter because the reality is land keeps getting annexed and that results in the loss of territory.  Should this continue in its current format; Palestine by any metric will cease to exist within 20 years by estimates regardless of your feelings. 

 

I don’t have to believe these so called “experts”.

[RomanPer]

3 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

No, it has to start on both sides.

 

The Palestinians that hate/ dislike Isrealis have to have their minds changed.

 

The Isrealis that have and are continuing to settle illegally on Palestinian land have to stop taking land, and that land has to be given back to the Palestinians so they can form a viable state.

 

Palestinians also have to be granted Autonomy in East Jerusalem in regards to making that the future capital of a Palestinian state. 

 

Compromise cuts 2 ways. 

 

They call this place the Holy land.

When using this word in the context of dismay, Holy crap, this is a messed up situation, it sure is the holy land.

 

Go to Israeli TV kids shows and show me one where the kids are saying “I’ll grow up to kill Palestinians”.

[Ilunga]

8 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

Go to Israeli TV kids shows and show me one where the kids are saying “I’ll grow up to kill Palestinians”.

 

I am not going to post it and use kids for propaganda purposes however don't you remember those Isreali kids that were singing a song at the start of the war, " we will kill them all " 

It's easy to find, even though the broad caster took it down.

 

You are missing the point.

 

It takes compromise from both sides to come to a peaceful solution.

I don't blame you for being biased you have a horse in the race.

 

I don't.

I believe that Isrealis and Palestinians should both have self determination, free and just societies, and live in harmony, side by side.

[RomanPer]

4 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

I am not going to post it and use kids for propaganda purposes however don't you remember those Isreali kids that were singing a song at the start of the war, " we will kill them all " 

It's easy to find, even though the broad caster took it down.

 

You are missing the point.

 

It takes compromise from both sides to come to a peaceful solution.

I don't blame you for being biased you have a horse in the race.

 

I don't.

I believe that Isrealis and Palestinians should both have self determination, free and just societies, and live in harmony, side by side.

 

You are missing my point. I don’t argue that there are no crazy parents in Israel who probably do teach their kids something as horrible as this. But it’s not on official Israeli TV channels accessible to all the Israeli kids. The shows I posted are on the official Palestinian TV channels accessible for every single Palestinian kid. There’s a difference between en-masse indoctrination on one side vs private small groups on the other side.

[Canuck Surfer]

22 hours ago, Super19 said:

I get that you wish Israel not be as heavy handed in their bombardment, but what is their plan?

 

So I supplied a response.

 

How about kitty corner in the ring; How does the PA or whomever will administrate affairs provide a program that offers peace? What will eliminate future Oct 7th's?

[Warhippy]

59 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

I don’t have to believe these so called “experts”.

It's probably better for some that they don't believe these so called experts.

 

When entrenched beliefs are faced with the loss of absolutism they usually don't react well, so ignoring counter positions to their own is beneficial to continuing to uphold those beliefs.

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, RomanPer said:

 

You are missing my point. I don’t argue that there are no crazy parents in Israel who probably do teach their kids something as horrible as this. But it’s not on official Israeli TV channels accessible to all the Israeli kids. The shows I posted are on the official Palestinian TV channels accessible for every single Palestinian kid. There’s a difference between en-masse indoctrination on one side vs private small groups on the other side.

 

Brother I would argue that when Kan, an Isreali public broadcaster uploaded that video of the kids singing that song on the platform now known as X, not only was it available in Isreal, people all over the world saw it, and most were unhappy to say the least.

[Super19]

31 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

You are missing my point. I don’t argue that there are no crazy parents in Israel who probably do teach their kids something as horrible as this. But it’s not on official Israeli TV channels accessible to all the Israeli kids. The shows I posted are on the official Palestinian TV channels accessible for every single Palestinian kid. There’s a difference between en-masse indoctrination on one side vs private small groups on the other side.

The video @Ilungais talking about WAS State sponsored, it was public broadcasting. There's also state sponsored propaganda on games and videos for children that Israel has done for overseas. 

 

This IDF bombardment, and the tiktoks they are posting, is the best recruitment for Hamas.
There's a video of this Gazan kid that was going around, who had his mother and 3 sisters killed from Israeli strikes, and he was saying some pretty Hamas type sh!t - wanting the head of Bibi and wanting to stomp on IDF soldiers. No propaganda forced him to say these violent things - Israeli bombs that killed his mother and 3 sisters did.

There's tiktoks of IDF soldiers destroying trinkets in abandoned and destroyed stores, rummaging through under garments in displaced Palestenian homes, cooking themselves food in these displaced homes, dancing, acting giddy and wearing dinosaur suits when pushing buttons that target civillian infrastructure, having Israeli children SIGN bombs that are killing Palestenian children. There is a great deal of accountability needed from the IDF and Israeli Govt and the people.

Palestenian children have seen more destruction and injustice growing up, they really don't need Palestine Propaganda TV to let them know that their lives are different than Israelis, and they don't need propoganda when they see the destruction around them. This didn't start on Oct 7. 

 

Pre-Hamas, 2002, not in Gaza, but in the West Bank, Jenin. To me it looks like the first aggressions are Israelis occupying and oppressing Palestinians in their land. 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

5 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

Answer this simple question, how can the Palestinians form a viable state when Isreal keeps taking more and more land from them ?

 

That's a question for Palestinians not for me. 

 

Asking me a probe leading question won't get you an answer that isnt there.  Lets say Israel agreed to leave West Bank, as they did Gaza 2006, Sinai 10 years + earlier? In spite of prodding by yourself, by presenting settlement arguments; I had previously called for Israel to stop the settlements. I agree it does not help. Palestinians have still not offered peace.  Arafat & the PA were, effectively, overthrown when peace was on the table; Fatah & Hamas are the militant / political groups who were vying for power in the aftermath. They were offered the West Bank most recently in 2006. 

 

Israel would have been forced to do what they did when they withdrew from Gaza; withdraw including removing their citizens whether they liked it or not. Israel does have a track record of coming good on deals. Perhaps having Bibi in power, they are moving away from peace. He is not sounding like an Israel in his watch will stop.  Yet he runs a coalition govt., not an overwhelming majority. Internal policy within Israel will change as there is a more liberal faction. Were apparently on a path to make peace with the Saudi Kingdom regardless. Maybe that was strategic, considering they had two wars launched by Hamas since 2006, not fundamental.  Still points to a goal of peace.

 

Internal power struggles also impact Palestinians; who attacked Israel from West Bank & Gaza directly after West Bank was offered. In spite of Oslo accords their people & had parties that fought internally for power, in many cases via thinly veiled guerilla war for power of the streets on opposite sides of accepting Israel? Fatah being one major group, largely remnants of the PLO who was, was apparently willing to recognize Israel? They were voted out in 2006 as a result of losing in it's street battles. Which, in my opinion, instructed people how they should vote to survive. Nonetheless Palestinians themselves rejected what Arafat negotiated for them in those Oslo accords.

 

Maybe Palestinians should have accepted offers extended!

 

Palestinians, Hamas specifically instead chose to launch more wars, which they summarily lost. Against a clearly superior military power. Then attacked again Oct 7. 

 

They continue to hold out for Israel to leave Jerusalem & the territory as a whole? This last statement could summarize the whole discussion since 1948. In spite of oppression & street wars, the population believes that all the land is Palestine. Do not support Oslo. We can discuss internal wrestling over how to encourage groups to embrace a move towards stability. On either side...

 

Palestinians continue to hold out for Israel to leave Jerusalem & the territory altogether.

 

[Ilunga]

2 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

That's a question for Palestinians not for me. 

 

Asking me a probe leading question won't get you an answer that isnt there.  Lets say Israel agreed to leave West Bank, as they did Gaza 2006, Sinai 10 years + earlier? In spite of prodding by yourself, by presenting settlement arguments; I had previously called for Israel to stop the settlements. I agree it does not help. Palestinians have still not offered peace.  Arafat & the PA were, effectively, overthrown when peace was on the table; Fatah & Hamas are the militant / political groups who were vying for power in the aftermath. They were offered the West Bank most recently in 2006. 

 

Israel would have been forced to do what they did when they withdrew from Gaza; withdraw including removing their citizens whether they liked it or not. Israel does have a track record of coming good on deals. Perhaps having Bibi in power, they are moving away from peace. He is not sounding like an Israel in his watch will stop.  Yet he runs a coalition govt., not an overwhelming majority. Internal policy within Israel will change as there is a more liberal faction. Were apparently on a path to make peace with the Saudi Kingdom regardless. Maybe that was strategic, considering they had two wars launched by Hamas since 2006, not fundamental.  Still points to a goal of peace.

 

Internal power struggles also impact Palestinians; who attacked Israel from West Bank & Gaza directly after West Bank was offered. In spite of Oslo accords their people & had parties that fought internally for power, in many cases via thinly veiled guerilla war for power of the streets on opposite sides of accepting Israel? Fatah being one major group, largely remnants of the PLO who was, was apparently willing to recognize Israel? They were voted out in 2006 as a result of losing in it's street battles. Which, in my opinion, instructed people how they should vote to survive. Nonetheless Palestinians themselves rejected what Arafat negotiated for them in those Oslo accords.

 

Maybe Palestinians should have accepted offers extended!

 

Palestinians, Hamas specifically instead chose to launch more wars, which they summarily lost. Against a clearly superior military power. Then attacked again Oct 7. 

 

They continue to hold out for Israel to leave Jerusalem & the territory as a whole? This last statement could summarize the whole discussion since 1948. In spite of oppression & street wars, the population believes that all the land is Palestine. Do not support Oslo. We can discuss internal wrestling over how to encourage groups to embrace a move towards stability. On either side...

 

Palestinians continue to hold out for Israel to leave Jerusalem & the territory altogether.

 

 

No, it's a question that any rational person who is going to comment on the situation in Israel, the Occupied territories and Gaza is entitled to ask, of another person who is also commenting on the same situation.

 

Like it's a logical question.

How much land and resources does it take to make a nation state a viable proposition ?

Especially in the context of the situation where one side continually breaks international law by taking land from the people that even you are claiming are entitled to a nation state of their own. 

 

Source for all Palestinians want Isreal to leave Jerusalem and territory altogether please ? 

 

Is that the same as all Isrealis want all of Isreal, from the sea to the river, as Netanyahu suggested at the UN when he illustrated that with a map of said area.

And as many Isrealis state themselves ?

[Canuck Surfer]

3 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

No, it's a question that any rational person who is going to comment on the situation in Israel, the Occupied territories and Gaza is entitled to ask, of another person who is also commenting on the same situation.

 

No its not irrationale at all. It affronts your sense of morality, but that makes it no less simple.

 

Israel has more weapons. Hamas keeps rejecting deals & launching attacks.  A guy like Bibi will say, well fuck, if these idiots reject peace & launch missiles at us?  

 

We may as well take territory...  I personally disagree, call for them to act with leadership. Yet it a fact of life.  Here below is more related samples; he who wields power!

 

 

 

Associated logic question; how many militant Islamic regime's have accepted minorities? Yemen is being carved into three territories by who can command power in each region.  Somaliland has now been 'independent' for ten plus years, not recognized globally. Cough, because they control the territory for their people. Iran has minorities, but they get lashed in the streets if they protest. Pakistan just deported 1.5M Afghans, most who left when the Taliban retook power. Guess what, minorities did not want to hang around when they did! Egypt does not want Palestine's refugees'. Jordan killed 25,000 Palestinians in 1972, expelled nearly 750,000. A similar # as Israel in 1948. Asaad's Baath party is a minority; meh, but they also have more weapons. These territories are not full of inclusive places where people vote on what is right?

 

Every minority seems to want their own space in the ME & much of the Muslim world. They only get it at the expense of others.  Hamas wanting Israel to leave is no different than Kurds being suppressed by Iran. Both have been around thousands of years. Visit Ethiopia, West Bengal or Sudan? They don't have enough guns, so they lose out. Maybe the solution is being willing to accept what opportunities for peace that are offered. 

 

Hamas, without having the firepower is killing their own people.  

 

Call me stupid for not being able to figure it out.

[Ilunga]

5 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

No its not irrationale at all. It affronts your sense of morality, but that makes it no less simple.

 

Israel has more weapons. Hamas keeps rejecting deals & launching attacks.  A guy like Bibi will say, well fuck, if these idiots reject peace & launch missiles at us?  

 

We may as well take territory...  I personally disagree, call for them to act with leadership. Yet it a fact of life.  Here below is more related samples; he who wields power!

 

 

 

Associated logic question; how many militant Islamic regime's have accepted minorities? Yemen is being carved into three territories by who can command power in each region.  Somaliland has now been 'independent' for ten plus years, not recognized globally. Cough, because they control the territory for their people. Iran has minorities, but they get lashed in the streets if they protest. Pakistan just deported 1.5M Afghans, most who left when the Taliban retook power. Guess what, minorities did not want to hang around when they did! Egypt does not want Palestine's refugees'. Jordan killed 25,000 Palestinians in 1972, expelled nearly 750,000. A similar # as Israel in 1948. Asaad's Baath party is a minority; meh, but they also have more weapons. These territories are not full of inclusive places where people vote on what is right?

 

Every minority seems to want their own space in the ME & much of the Muslim world. They only get it at the expense of others.  Hamas wanting Israel to leave is no different than Kurds being suppressed by Iran. Both have been around thousands of years. Visit Ethiopia, West Bengal or Sudan? They don't have enough guns, so they lose out. Maybe the solution is being willing to accept what opportunities for peace that are offered. 

 

Hamas, without having the firepower is killing their own people.  

 

Call me stupid for not being able to figure it out. 

 For starters I will never call you stupid, you post intelligent well thought out content.

 

On top of that I don't call anyone stupid.

Insults are the arguments employed by those in the wrong 

JJR. 

 

A nation needs land and resources to make it a viable proposition, that is a fact.

 

Isreal keeps taking land, do you believe that contributes to your claim that they refuse to make a deal.

 

They made a deal, recognised Isreal, renounced violence, Isreal kept taking land, which meant they reneged on their part of the deal, I have already posted a detailed third party summation on this subject a while back. 

 

As for the rest you know how I feel about Yemen, I started a thread about it that you were the only one to contribute to.

 

You also know how I feel about people who face injustice and persecution anywhere in the world.

 

All people have the right to live in a society where they can safely raise their kids, have food on the table, access to a good education and healthcare.

 

The world's richest society cannot even provide proper healthcare to their citizens.

[Canuck Surfer]

7 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Every minority seems to want their own space in the ME & much of the Muslim world. Wants to lock everyone else out for their own security! They only get it at the expense of others.

 

Amending this quote above.

 

Groups in these territories do not feel safe unless they lock others out. 

 

Too many have been dealt a constant hand of serving & suffering at the hands of those above them in any hierarchy of power.

 

 

The real issue is people not offering other races & walks of life in the world their dignity. The world needs to be more inclusive.  Interesting video article!

 

 

I did not know Mahsa Amini, arrested by the morality police in Iran, was also Kurdish?  That such a significant part of the oppression was racism, sexism not simply moral conflicts of religious ideals.

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

2 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

On top of that I don't call anyone stupid.

 

It was intended at larger audiences. 

 

This entire debate does not have to be that thought provoking? See my above post for real direction of solutions. Being more inclusive.

[Ilunga]

4 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

It was intended at larger audiences. 

 

This entire debate does not have to be that thought provoking? See my above post for real direction of solutions. Being more inclusive.

 

 

As I have argued, empathy is the answer to, not just this situation but most of not all human " problems ".

Put yourself in the " others " shoes and try and view the world through their eyes.

[Canuck Surfer]

5 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

They made a deal, recognised Isreal, renounced violence,

 

Palestinians went in the direction of Hamas after Oslo. 

 

Deals with Arafat were never going to last.  He was corrupt. Not a real leader of his people. Gaza not having stability, a justice system, administration that reflected all its people was a factor. He was not in a position to uphold that initiative. A police force to calm opposition, without relying on his now aging street militants. Against new ones that were forming, wanted his corrupt profits. Nonetheless, it was an opportunity missed. One re-offered in 2006.

 

It will only last when Palestinians themselves want their own land, peace, more than other objectives. Are willing to work on governing themselves, accept help from outside to discard militantancy.  This is very much a QFT statement. I also argue they could be leaders; one of the first Middle Eastern countries to engage Freedoms for all who wish to live with them.  

 

I am the descendent of a Ukrainian farmer deposed by Russia.  I can't change that. There will be things Palestinians cannot change if they want peace.

[Canuck Surfer]

@Super19 I suggest watch that Kurdish video?

 

Its about another groups fight against oppression. A position as Palestinians see themselves in. 

 

 

[Ilunga]

Just now, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Palestinians went in the direction of Hamas after Oslo. 

 

Deals with Arafat were never going to last.  He was corrupt. Not a real leader of his people. Gaza not having stability, a justice system, administration that reflected all its people was a factor. He was not in a position to uphold that initiative. A police force to calm opposition, without relying on his now aging street militants. Against new ones that were forming, wanted his corrupt profits. Nonetheless, it was an opportunity missed. One re-offered in 2006.

 

It will only last when Palestinians themselves want their own land, peace, more than other objectives. Are willing to work on governing themselves, accept help from outside to discard militantancy.  This is very much a QFT statement. I also argue they could be leaders; one of the first Middle Eastern countries to engage Freedoms for all who wish to live with them.  

 

I am the descendent of a Ukrainian farmer deposed by Russia.  I can't change that. There will be things Palestinians cannot change if they want peace.

 

I can't be bothered trying to find the links I posted last time however the PLO did try and enforce their side of the deal.

Trying to hold the radicals who committed violence to account for their acts.

There was also acts of settler violence and the biggy that set off the second Intifada was when Isreali politician Ariel Sharon made a provocative visit to the Al Aqsa compound. 

 

The one difference between the radicals on both sides, that prolong this conflict by their attitudes is that Isreal has continued to take land, that the international community states they are doing illegally.

They have been doing this since the mid 70's.

[Ilunga]

9 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

@Super19 I suggest watch that Kurdish video?

 

Its about another groups fight against oppression. A position as Palestinians see themselves in. 

 

 

 

As TISM states brother

You're cactus if you're Kurdish 

[Canuck Surfer]

4 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

The one difference between the radicals on both sides, that prolong this conflict by their attitudes is that Isreal has continued to take land

 

You have made this point 50 or 60 times?  Maybe not that many. Its been acknowledged, also pointed out without you mentioning it. Its not helping your point at this stage.

 

Absolutely, if Israel would stop such behaviour. Settler violence, stealing land for settlements, violent repressions of protests. Allowing rampages. I call(ed) on them to do more than that, police these; be the leader as the 1st world nation. It would help.  Voting out the RW extremists that largely do it.  Educate their people on tolerance. As Palestinians should also do.

 

Israel has not taken land from Gaza though since 2005, till Oct 12 anyway. Nor Jordan, nor Egypt and specifically Sinai. You can point out any deal signed by Arafat, or the PA; they are at worst equal parties in such deals not working out.  There is no track record, Israel has some credibility to go with its portion of shame.

 

It won't help if militant opposition still wants all of Jerusalem. If Palestinians themselves say its all ours. Don't want peace.  Israel can and should make concessions.  But they are not leaving. 

 

Pointing fingers at one side...

 

 

 

 

[Ilunga]

1 minute ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

You have made this point 50 or 60 times?  Maybe not that many. Its been acknowledged, also pointed out without you mentioning it. Its not helping your point at this stage.

 

Absolutely, if Israel would stop such behaviour. Settler violence, stealing land for settlements, violent repressions of protests. Allowing rampages. I call(ed) on them to do more than that, police these; be the leader as the 1st world nation. It would help.  Voting out the RW extremists that largely do it.  Educate their people on tolerance. As Palestinians should also do.

 

Israel has not taken land from Gaza though since 2005, till Oct 12 anyway. Nor Jordan, nor Egypt and specifically Sinai. You can point out any deal signed by Arafat, or the PA; they are at worst equal parties in such deals not working out.  There is no track record, Israel has some credibility to go with its portion of shame.

 

It won't help if militant opposition still wants all of Jerusalem. If Palestinians themselves say its all ours. Don't want peace.  Israel can and should make concessions.  But they are not leaving. 

 

Pointing fingers at one side...

 

 

 

 

 

No it hasn't been really been acknowledged by most of the posters in this thread.

You, hippy S19, Gurn have.

 

In fact some posters defend Isreal and find excuses for them doing this, and for not returning the land to the Palestinians. 

 

Militants from both sides want all of Jerusalem.

One side keeps losing more and more land in Jerusalem, and not due to war.

Even an Aussie is trying to steal land in Jerusalem from another group of people who were victims of a genocide you posted a video about in this thread.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/religionandethicsreport/property-deal-could-threaten-armenian-presence-in-holy-land/103126920

 

 

 

[RomanPer]

1 hour ago, Ilunga said:

 

No it hasn't been really been acknowledged by most of the posters in this thread.

You, hippy S19, Gurn have.

 

In fact some posters defend Isreal and find excuses for them doing this, and for not returning the land to the Palestinians. 

 

Militants from both sides want all of Jerusalem.

One side keeps losing more and more land in Jerusalem, and not due to war.

Even an Aussie is trying to steal land in Jerusalem from another group of people who were victims of a genocide you posted a video about in this thread.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/religionandethicsreport/property-deal-could-threaten-armenian-presence-in-holy-land/103126920

 

 

 

 

“Militants” on the Jewish side is literally every single Jewish person in the world who prays every year at Passover “Be’Shana Ha’Baa Be Jerushalayim” (Next Year in Jerusalem). Jerusalem is the only Jewish holy city mentioned in Torah over and over again. Jerusalem is not mentioned in Quran once with regards to being Islam holy place. True holy places for Islam are Mecca and Medina. Al-Aqsa was built on top of 2 Jewish Temples as “in your face” gesture.

[Canuck Surfer]

1 hour ago, Ilunga said:

One side keeps losing more and more land in Jerusalem, and not due to war.

One side sticks to a 60 year old axiom.  Signatories to which, and I am speaking of Arab countries, who have progressed in their relationship with Israel.  

 

[Canuck Surfer]

1 hour ago, Ilunga said:

There was also acts of settler violence and the biggy that set off the second Intifada was when Isreali politician Ariel Sharon made a provocative visit to the Al Aqsa compound. 

 

Just my own morals.  I abhor settler violence. To me that remains an issue Israel has to correct.

 

 

That Sharon visiting was provocative? Underscores a real problem.  No recognition that the Jewish Temple Mount on the same site, 2000 years older than Al Aqsa, exists. 

 

These locations should be open to, and respected by, everybody.    

 

 

They also underscore why a multi-cultural solution is a moral requirement.  Not the exclusion of one party, or the other...