Hamas attacking Israel

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Canuck Surfer]

Did Palestinians make a mistake in 1948?

 

[Ilunga]

44 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

“Militants” on the Jewish side is literally every single Jewish person in the world who prays every year at Passover “Be’Shana Ha’Baa Be Jerushalayim” (Next Year in Jerusalem). Jerusalem is the only Jewish holy city mentioned in Torah over and over again. Jerusalem is not mentioned in Quran once with regards to being Islam holy place. True holy places for Islam are Mecca and Medina. Al-Aqsa was built on top of 2 Jewish Temples as “in your face” gesture.

 

C'mon brother a quick google search states that Mecca, Medina and Jerusalem are Muslim sacred sites.

 

The first Mosque that was built there was somewhere around 700 ce.

1400 years ago.

 

This illustrates the problem, a lack of respect, from both sides in regards to each other's beliefs.

 

Would you like to be told what the holy sites are in regards to Isreal ?

 

Actually Jerusalem's earliest known name is Jebusite, the translation of a Canaanite town.

Together with the later arriving Philistines, they are known to be the earliest known ancestors to present day Palestinians.

Both those groups of people were there before the Isrealites rocked up.

 

[Ilunga]

57 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

One side sticks to a 60 year old axiom.  Signatories to which, and I am speaking of Arab countries, who have progressed in their relationship with Israel.  

 

 

Those signatories aren't occupied or having their land taken from them by Isreal.

[Ilunga]

35 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Just my own morals.  I abhor settler violence. To me that remains an issue Israel has to correct.

 

 

That Sharon visiting was provocative? Underscores a real problem.  No recognition that the Jewish Temple Mount on the same site, 2000 years older than Al Aqsa, exists. 

 

These locations should be open to, and respected by, everybody.    

 

 

They also underscore why a multi-cultural solution is a moral requirement.  Not the exclusion of one party, or the other...

 

There are not Palestinian politicians entering the Jewish temple mount.

 

The first temple was built by Solomon in 957 BC, the first Mosque in somewhere around 700 ce.

So just over 1200 years.

 

As I stated in a reply to Roman, the Philistines were are the ancestors to the modern day Palestinians lived in the place that is known as Jerusalem before the Isrealites got there. 

 

And yes, I believe that like all " heritage" sites around the world, all people should be allowed to visit, respect and admire them.

[Canuck Surfer]

3 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Those signatories aren't occupied or having their land taken from them by Isreal.

 

No but they all attacked Israel; as Hamas did Oct 7.  All had land taken in 1967. Hamas with language in its charter that calls for its complete demolition.

 

I'll repeat something I said earlier with apologies; attacking Israel whom you have no hope of defeating?  It was pretty dumb tactically.  Hamas has done this three times since 2006. Hamas keeps rejecting deals & launching attacks. Hamas rejected PA appeals and proposals, attempted to assassinate Abbas. Hamas was not among those looking for peace.

 

Since Hamas took power there was never a repeal of their charter to destroy Israel.  There was never a cessation of hostility. A guy like Bibi will say, well fuck, if these idiots reject peace & keep launching missiles at us??? 

 

In Netanyahu's world taking what Hamas has pushes them farther from being a security problem.  Everyone mocks Bibi for inflaming Palestinians, but the reverse also true.

 

Until someone actually takes a peaceful stance.

 

[RomanPer]

17 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

C'mon brother a quick google search states that Mecca, Medina and Jerusalem are Muslim sacred sites.

 

The first Mosque that was built there was somewhere around 700 ce.

1400 years ago.

 

This illustrates the problem, a lack of respect, from both sides in regards to each other's beliefs.

 

Would you like to be told what the holy sites are in regards to Isreal ?

 

Actually Jerusalem's earliest known name is Jebusite, the translation of a Canaanite town.

Together with the later arriving Philistines, they are known to be the earliest known ancestors to present day Palestinians.

Both those groups of people were there before the Isrealites rocked up.

 

 

Go through the entire Quran and show me one verse that states that Jerusalem is a holy site for Islam. Go through Torah (which was written waaaaay before Quran) and you will see Jerusalem all over it. Of course Google will tell you that now Jerusalem is one of the sacred sites for Islam. One little gotcha though - the annual pilgrimage is to Mecca, not to Al Aqsa. Again, Al Aqsa is a made up holy site to spite the Jews. Purposely built on top of not one but 2 holiest Jewish temples.

[RomanPer]

7 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

There are not Palestinian politicians entering the Jewish temple mount.

 

The first temple was built by Solomon in 957 BC, the first Mosque in somewhere around 700 ce.

So just over 1200 years.

 

As I stated in a reply to Roman, the Philistines were are the ancestors to the modern day Palestinians lived in the place that is known as Jerusalem before the Isrealites got there. 

 

And yes, I believe that like all " heritage" sites around the world, all people should be allowed to visit, respect and admire them.

 

The Philistines have as much to do with the modern day Palestinians as an apple with an orange. Philistines were Greeks. Modern day Palestinians are Arabs.

[RomanPer]

10 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

There are not Palestinian politicians entering the Jewish temple mount.

 

The first temple was built by Solomon in 957 BC, the first Mosque in somewhere around 700 ce.

So just over 1200 years.

 

As I stated in a reply to Roman, the Philistines were are the ancestors to the modern day Palestinians lived in the place that is known as Jerusalem before the Isrealites got there. 

 

And yes, I believe that like all " heritage" sites around the world, all people should be allowed to visit, respect and admire them.

 

As for heritage sites accessible to all the people - you are absolutely right. And this is exactly what Israel does - allows access to the holy sites of all religions to all people (who are not a security risk to Israel). Not just that, Jews are actually not allowed to access the Temple Mount even though it is the holiest place for Jews. Strange, isn’t it? Only Muslims are allowed there.

[Ilunga]

1 minute ago, RomanPer said:

 

Go through the entire Quran and show me one verse that states that Jerusalem is a holy site for Islam. Go through Torah (which was written waaaaay before Quran) and you will see Jerusalem all over it. Of course Google will tell you that now Jerusalem is one of the sacred sites for Islam. One little gotcha though - the annual pilgrimage is to Mecca, not to Al Aqsa. Again, Al Aqsa is a made up holy site to spite the Jews. Purposely built on top of not one but 2 holiest Jewish temples.

 

So 1400 hundred years ago, a group of people who share some, if not many of the Judeo Christian beliefs and traditions, built a building that is way older than many of the surviving Christian buildings around the world.

Just to piss the Jews off, most of which had gone to other places. 

 

Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the first temple around 587 BC 

Titus destroyed the second temple in 70 AD.

 

The city has been destroyed twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times and recaptured 44 times.

 

As I stated the ancestors of modern day Palestinians lived in what is now known as Jerusalem before the Isrealites got there. 

 

Sigh, no wonder we fight wars over stupid shit.

 

 

[Ilunga]

19 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

As for heritage sites accessible to all the people - you are absolutely right. And this is exactly what Israel does - allows access to the holy sites of all religions to all people (who are not a security risk to Israel). Not just that, Jews are actually not allowed to access the Temple Mount even though it is the holiest place for Jews. Strange, isn’t it? Only Muslims are allowed there.

 

Apparently Jews are allowed to visit temple mount during certain times but not allowed to pray there.

This is to stop religious conflict, which ain't working.

I believe they should be allowed to pray to their god that may or may not exist at that place if they so choose.

 

[Ilunga]

26 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

The Philistines have as much to do with the modern day Palestinians as an apple with an orange. Philistines were Greeks. Modern day Palestinians are Arabs.

 

The first article I read was wrong, so yes you are right I have got it wrong, the Philistines are not the ancestors of Palestinians.

 

What I will remind you of is that Jews and Palestinians are literally blood brothers. 

 

https://www.haaretz.com/science-and-health/2015-10-20/ty-article/palestinians-and-jews-share-genetic-roots/0000017f-dc0e-df9c-a17f-fe1e57730000

 

 

[Warhippy]

5 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

One side sticks to a 60 year old axiom.  Signatories to which, and I am speaking of Arab countries, who have progressed in their relationship with Israel.  

 

How does this differ from todays Israeli government refusing to accept Palestines existence?

[Warhippy]

4 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

Go through the entire Quran and show me one verse that states that Jerusalem is a holy site for Islam. Go through Torah (which was written waaaaay before Quran) and you will see Jerusalem all over it. Of course Google will tell you that now Jerusalem is one of the sacred sites for Islam. One little gotcha though - the annual pilgrimage is to Mecca, not to Al Aqsa. Again, Al Aqsa is a made up holy site to spite the Jews. Purposely built on top of not one but 2 holiest Jewish temples.

So a long time ago, People of the muslim faith won a war and built on the land they conquered one of those sites a part of some groups magical sky daddy beliefs.  Is that not justifiable?  Is this not the same justification we have heard over the last 36 hours as to why it is acceptable to annex and keep land formerly known as palestinian?

[Bob Long]

4 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

The Philistines have as much to do with the modern day Palestinians as an apple with an orange. Philistines were Greeks. Modern day Palestinians are Arabs.

 

Ultimately we are all African, so I guess South Africa better make room, we are coming home. Because history.

[Bob Long]

15 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

So a long time ago, People of the muslim faith won a war and built on the land they conquered one of those sites a part of some groups magical sky daddy beliefs.  Is that not justifiable?  Is this not the same justification we have heard over the last 36 hours as to why it is acceptable to annex and keep land formerly known as palestinian?

 

I think the more interesting question is why do we accept land taken through war for other countries and not Israel?

[Optimist Prime]

53 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

I think the more interesting question is why do we accept land taken through war for other countries and not Israel?

16 major conflagrations between the people of Gaza and their allies and Israel: 15 of them started by Gazans and their allies, to be brief, I know its been a long 80 years...

When you win a war you didn't start, there are reparations that the world accepts. "To the victor go the spoils" is a saying we have had for dozens of generations, if not hundreds. 

So when you see folks who don't think Israel should occupy land won in a defensive war, but don't comment on Cypress, Egypt, Iraq, Libya, Morocco, Syria, Turkey, Yemen, Western Sahara, Burkina Faso, Cameroon, Central African Republic, D.R. Congo, Ethiopia, Mali, Mozanbique, Nigeria, Senegal, Somalia, South Sudan, Sudan, Afghanistan, India, Myanmar, Pakistan, The Phillipines, China, Russia, Transdniestria, South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Armenia, Ukriaine, Mexico and Columbia vis a vis south american conflicts and gang/government wars, and the more than 110 other armed conflicts going on in the world right now, it is mostly because those people are against the one nation they are singling out as being occupiers. Usually. I know here we are all in the favour of peace, there are variants, but I am being general and vague. 

 

Followup thought: Let's pretend for a moment on Oct 7th, Hamas broke through that fence and stormed three or four Kibutz' and took over the festival grounds and instead of taking hostages and murdering everyone, they murdered most folks like they really did and then held the land as an invasion. The people now angry about Israel being occupiers would be saying Hamas liberated that land. It is simple really, so I realize your question was rhetorical, just figured I would amplify it. 

[Bob Long]

3 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

16 major conflagrations between the people of Gaza and their allies and Israel: 15 of them started by Gazans and their allies, to be brief, I know its been a long 80 years...

When you win a war you didn't start, there are reparations that the world accepts. "To the victor go the spoils" is a saying we have had for dozens of generations, if not hundreds. 

So when you see folks who don't think Israel should occupy land won in a defensive war, but don't comment on Cypress, Egypt, Iraq, Libya, Morocco, Syria, Turkey, Yemen, Western Sahara, Burkina Faso, Cameroon, Central African Republic, D.R. Congo, Ethiopia, Mali, Mozanbique, Nigeria, Senegal, Somalia, South Sudan, Sudan, Afghanistan, India, Myanmar, Pakistan, The Phillipines, China, Russia, Transdniestria, South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Armenia, Ukriaine, Mexico and Columbia vis a vis south american conflicts, and the more than 110 other armed conflicts going on in the world right now, it is mostly because those people are against the one nation they are singling out as being occupiers. Usually. I know here we are all in the favour of peace, there are variants, but I am being general and vague. 

 

thanks thats far better than I can put it. 

 

Even if we accept the idea that Hamas isn't popular in Gaza or wasn't elected by them (which I don't but lets say its true) its only the end of a long series of attacks. 

 

[Optimist Prime]

2 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

thanks thats far better than I can put it. 

 

Even if we accept the idea that Hamas isn't popular in Gaza or wasn't elected by them (which I don't but lets say its true) its only the end of a long series of attacks. 

 

If i wanted to spend the time I could post videos that collectively show hundreds of thousands of cheering Gazans when news broke of the Oct 7th massacre. Sure they don't support hamas, lol. Well at least I am hopeful they are about ready to turn their backs on Hamas but as of Oct 8th, they supported Hamas incredibly. Not one Hamas member has been turned over to the IDF by any citizen group of Gaza. Not one. That is some pretty sound solidarity right there. Every other conflict on earth has partisans that will turn on their masters at some point. I am really curious when that point will be reached with Gaza. 

[Optimist Prime]

For those that are curious about the 110 non international armed conflicts going on, some of which I mentioned above..

Quote

more than 45 armed conflicts are currently taking place throughout the Middle East and North Africa 

Quote

Africa comes second in the number of armed conflicts per region with more than 35 non-international armed conflicts (NIACs) taking place

Quote

Asia is the theatre of 19 non-international armed conflicts (NIACs) involving 19 armed groups.

Quote

The following military occupations constitute the majority of armed conflicts that are taking place in Europe, four out of seven conflicts: (goes on to talk about Donetsk and Luhansk et cetera: key takeaway is 7 NIAC's in Europe as i type this)

Quote

six non-international armed conflicts that are taking place in the region are split evenly between Mexico and Colombia

https://geneva-academy.ch/galleries/today-s-armed-conflicts

for those who would like to know more. 

 

 

I think we are all hyperfixated on Israel specifically because the overwhelming majority of us both here in these forums and in North America generally have some historical binding with one of the three Abrahamic Religions. Most of the myths we grew up with revolve around the region this thread is devoted to and so we are all hanging on by the edge of our seats with a sense of a vested interest. 

[Bob Long]

6 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

If i wanted to spend the time I could post videos that collectively show hundreds of thousands of cheering Gazans when news broke of the Oct 7th massacre. Sure they don't support hamas, lol. Well at least I am hopeful they are about ready to turn their backs on Hamas but as of Oct 8th, they supported Hamas incredibly. Not one Hamas member has been turned over to the IDF by any citizen group of Gaza. Not one. That is some pretty sound solidarity right there. Every other conflict on earth has partisans that will turn on their masters at some point. I am really curious when that point will be reached with Gaza. 

 

I think we're supposed to accept that Hamas rules only by fear and not by support. Either way they need to be eliminated.

[Canuck Surfer]

1 hour ago, Warhippy said:

How does this differ from todays Israeli government refusing to accept Palestines existence?

 

There is a huge distinction between Hamas and Palestinians as a whole.

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Taxi]

7 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

 

 

As I stated in a reply to Roman, the Philistines were are the ancestors to the modern day Palestinians lived in the place that is known as Jerusalem before the Isrealites got there. 

 

 

You don't actually believe this do you?

 

Wrong for so many reasons. The Philistines were Greek. They didn't live in Jerusalem. They lived on the coast near what is now Gaza. They were an enemy of the ancient Israelites. The Romans chose the name "Palestinae" to humiliate the Jews after they lost the second rebellion. The Philistines are in no way related to modern Arabs. They were a seafaring group of Greeks who likely ceased to exist some time around 600 BC.

 

Are these the mental gymnastics you have created for yourself to ignore all the evidence that shows that the Jews have history in Israel?

[Optimist Prime]

The other day a rocket attack was launched from the rooftops of this hospital, and now this...

 

Quote

Fierce fighting occurs around Khan Younis' largest hospital, according to Palestinian news agency

From CNN’s Celine Alkhaldi

Intense Israeli bombardment and heavy fighting in the area around a large hospital in southern Gaza killed nearly 30 people on Friday, Palestinian state news agency WAFA said.

Nasser Hospital — the largest remaining health facility in Gaza's southern city of Khan Younis — came under "violent bombardment" by Israeli artillery and military vehicles, according to WAFA. Several residential buildings near the hospital were reportedly shelled, including one where a family of eight was killed, WAFA said.

Ambulance and rescue crews recovered 29 bodies from under the rubble of destroyed homes and in surrounding streets, WAFA reported.

The Palestine Red Crescent Society also said Friday that several displaced people were injured in Israeli drone attacks targeting the organization’s headquarters and Al-Amal Hospital, which is close to Nasser Hospital. The United Nations estimated Wednesday that around 7,000 people have sought shelter in and around the Nasser Hospital grounds.

 

 

How does one stop rocket attacks from a rooftop without harming the people in the building, that is a major question no one wants to answer directly.

If Israel does nothing Israeli's will be killed by rockets. If Israel bombs the hospital the worlds leftists will cry foul and sue and move more into the camp of the Jihadists. If Israel storms the building with real people with real families and real mothers, those jews will die in the building. 

it is pretty sick to use a Hospital for waging war out of.