Hamas attacking Israel

[Optimist Prime]

The 13 thousand or more civilian deaths, which are tragic, seems to be a recurring theme here, among the outraged, I just wanted to scoop something from the ten year war in Yemen between the Iran backed rebel group trying to seize power and the internationally recognized government of Yemen to put some measure of perspective to things.

Quote

The UN estimates that at the end of 2021, 70% of all the casualties of the war (around 259,000) are children under five

182,000 babes dead for being the wrong kind of muslim, basically this comes down to Sunni or Shi'a affiliation in an admittedly crass one liner of an explanation.

No one was resoundingly outraged until probably right now as you read this. I know I am, it is disgusting, and has a ring of some form of Genocide to me. South Africa hasn't gone to the ICJ about Yemen though, weird isn't it?

[StrayDog]

4 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

I think the more interesting question is why do we accept land taken through war for other countries and not Israel?

I have only one question that needs to be answered before I think we can start questioning anything else in this conflict: When is Hamas going to release the remaining hostages?

[Warhippy]

3 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

There is a huge distinction between Hamas and Palestinians as a whole.

But what is the difference between Israeli leadership refusing to acknowledge Palestine as a state or other nations refusing to accept Israel as a state?

[Warhippy]

4 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

The people now angry about Israel being occupiers would be saying Hamas liberated that land. It is simple really, so I realize your question was rhetorical, just figured I would amplify it. 

Would they?  Would they really?

 

Let's flip the script here

 

Would the people making the argument of Israel owning land taken by force then also accept and acknowledge the same for Hamas?

 

That coin has two very ugly sides

[Bob Long]

54 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

But what is the difference between Israeli leadership refusing to acknowledge Palestine as a state or other nations refusing to accept Israel as a state?

 

A lot. Its like France saying they'd recognize an independent Quebec. Cool, as far as that goes. But has no weight internally. 

[Canuck Surfer]

48 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

But what is the difference between Israeli leadership refusing to acknowledge Palestine as a state or other nations refusing to accept Israel as a state?

 

I suppose you missed the news that Israel has formally offered deals which included a formally recognized Palestinian state 5 times in its history? 

 

4 of those times, it was responded to with acts of war being launched directly after by the Palestinians. Not Jews if we want to ignore Israel? Including in 2006 by Hamas, 1948 after Israel was created in exit negotiations with British Palestine & the UN.  In 2006 it included Gaza & the West Bank, with East Jerusalem as its capital. Its also worth mentioning.  Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Iraq, even Saudi Arabia all had their borders redrawn in the period surrounding dismantling of British Palestine. 

 

Palestine keeps holding out for the whole lottery.  Well, parts of Palestine; Jordanian, Syrian and Lebanese portions have their own country if not peace.  

[Bob Long]

11 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

I suppose you missed the news that Israel has formally offered deals which included a formally recognized Palestinian state 5 times in its history? 

 

4 of those times, it was responded to with acts of war being launched directly after by the Palestinians. Not Jews if we want to ignore Israel? Including in 2006 by Hamas, 1948 after Israel was created in exit negotiations with British Palestine & the UN.  In 2006 it included Gaza & the West Bank, with East Jerusalem as its capital. Its also worth mentioning.  Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Iraq, even Saudi Arabia all had their borders redrawn in the period surrounding dismantling of British Palestine. 

 

Palestine keeps holding out for the whole lottery.  Well, parts of Palestine; Jordanian, Syrian and Lebanese portions have their own country if not peace.  

 

I really don't understand why this gets glossed over? Imagine if Arafat had actually wanted peace, where would Gaza be now?

[Canuck Surfer]

1 hour ago, Warhippy said:

Would the people making the argument of Israel owning land taken by force then also accept and acknowledge the same for Hamas?

 

I don't mind this debate.

 

I personally believe Israel will have to make concessions if they want peace.  I have argued repeatedly they need to curb, should have all along curbed, RW groups that are sponsoring settler land grabs & violence.  It certainly eats credibility.  Its also worth mentioning Netanyahu is currently posturing, just in the last week, they will have to hold more territory for security?  ie there will be at worst a period where Israel maintains force in Gaza.

 

I don't like that either. 

 

As for Hamas, they don't have the strength or wealth to take on Israel at this time.  Oct 7 was a mistake on their part. 

[Canuck Surfer]

2 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

the wrong kind of muslim, basically this comes down to Sunni or Shi'a affiliation in an admittedly crass one liner of an explanation.

 

The real issue with these groups is they are corrupt.

 

Much of the Middle East?  Also the Caucasus & even Eastern Europe experienced & experiences the same. Both recently, and historically have retreated into these ethnic Nationalist groups as they lose rights to a dominant culture. Both as countries & territories.  Look at the recent acts of war in Nagorno-Karabakh? The plight of Kurds or even dissolution of the former Yugoslavia, where a threat of civil & interstate war still exists.  Yet in the Middle East & Africa, territories of all the Stans; control starts with having the most armed thugs in your own streets.  

 

These states are primarily ruled by having militia keep minorities in check & subservient. Back to Yemen, the Arab Spring saw Ali Abdullah Saleh deposed. It then saw groups, 3 primarily all once controlled by him break into factions.  Yes, one side has been backed by the Saudi's, one, the Houthi's by Iran.  Its still just groups of armed thugs vying for control. That happened when Iraq was broken apart by the US. Bigger powers do like to implant their own administration; which earns them a share of the spoils. It's happening still in Syria. Ethnic groups gather enough power, they can control territories by the sword.

 

Powers as big as the US or Russia were not able to consolidate any 'ideal' group in power in Afghanistan. 

 

And back to Israel; they are also the wrong kind of Muslim!

 

Its why no one there likes them!

[Canuck Surfer]

Even then?

 

The Houthi's, nor Hamas, Hexbollah or even Asaad are Shia Muslims.

 

Which underscores these are armed gangs vying for control whatever way they can.  It's less fundamental, or more simple, than it would seem @Optimist Prime. When these countries can be controlled by viable justice systems, police. Case in point, who in  Gaza was going to arrest Yahya Sinwar when he was strangling people sympathetic to Israel; rather than pay willingly their local security fee? Where is there a stable govt., with a legitimate police force? Who combat and control armed gangs for all. Minorities might start to live in peace & work together on any one ME nations wealth. 

 

Instead they start their own militia group.

[Canuck Surfer]

Told by an Arab Israeli; the orders to leave in 1948 came from Arabs, not Jews.

 

This corresponds to history as told by @RomanPer back in the CDC version of this thread?  

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

45 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

I really don't understand why this gets glossed over? Imagine if Arafat had actually wanted peace, where would Gaza be now?

 

Hamas has been around since the late 1970's as an alternate force to the PLO. 

 

It was perhaps over zealous to think they had accomplished peace.  

 

Of course Anwar Sadat was assassinated, in large part because he unilaterally made peace with Israel on behalf of Egypt. This was hated internally in Egypt, and by many of its backers. The US threw in concessions worth billions in both the Palestinian & Egyptian deals. Rulers are after money in ways that make them wealthier, above all? Both Sadat and Arafat dies amongst the wealthiest men in history.  But 'peace' held with Egypt, Hamas eroded away at the PLO' & Arafat's grip on power. 

 

He did not have consolidate power over Palestine.  

[Ilunga]

5 hours ago, Taxi said:

You don't actually believe this do you?

 

Wrong for so many reasons. The Philistines were Greek. They didn't live in Jerusalem. They lived on the coast near what is now Gaza. They were an enemy of the ancient Israelites. The Romans chose the name "Palestinae" to humiliate the Jews after they lost the second rebellion. The Philistines are in no way related to modern Arabs. They were a seafaring group of Greeks who likely ceased to exist some time around 600 BC.

 

Are these the mental gymnastics you have created for yourself to ignore all the evidence that shows that the Jews have history in Israel?

 

Didn't you read my post where I manned up and  admitted I was wrong about the Philistines.

 

 

 

And you keep making BS statements.

Where in any of my posts have I stated that the Jews have no history in Isreal ? 

 

I posted last night the Solomon built the first temple in 957 BC.

Solomon was, at that time the king of the Jews was he not ? 

So apart from other posts about the history of the place that is called Isreal, the occupied territories and Gaz now , that post illustrates me pointing out that there has been a Jewish presence in that area since then. 

 

Are you going to man up and have the courage to admit you were wrong in accusing me " mental gymnastics"  to create evidence that the Jews have no history in Isreal ?

[Ilunga]

12 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

The first article I read was wrong, so yes you are right I have got it wrong, the Philistines are not the ancestors of Palestinians.

 

What I will remind you of is that Jews and Palestinians are literally blood brothers. 

 

https://www.haaretz.com/science-and-health/2015-10-20/ty-article/palestinians-and-jews-share-genetic-roots/0000017f-dc0e-df9c-a17f-fe1e57730000

 

 

 

@Taxi here is me Manning up and admitting admitting I was wrong.

 

13 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

There are not Palestinian politicians entering the Jewish temple mount.

 

The first temple was built by Solomon in 957 BC, the first Mosque in somewhere around 700 ce.

So just over 1200 years.

 

As I stated in a reply to Roman, the Philistines were are the ancestors to the modern day Palestinians lived in the place that is known as Jerusalem before the Isrealites got there. 

 

And yes, I believe that like all " heritage" sites around the world, all people should be allowed to visit, respect and admire them.

 

@Taxi here is me attributing a Jewish presence in the area known as Isreal, the occupied territories and Gaza

 

12 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

So 1400 hundred years ago, a group of people who share some, if not many of the Judeo Christian beliefs and traditions, built a building that is way older than many of the surviving Christian buildings around the world.

Just to piss the Jews off, most of which had gone to other places. 

 

Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the first temple around 587 BC 

Titus destroyed the second temple in 70 AD.

 

The city has been destroyed twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times and recaptured 44 times.

 

As I stated the ancestors of modern day Palestinians lived in what is now known as Jerusalem before the Isrealites got there. 

 

Sigh, no wonder we fight wars over stupid shit.

 

 

 

@Taxi

Here is me again attributing a Jewish presence in the area that is known as Isreal, the occupied territories and Gaza.

Edited January 20 by Ilunga

[Optimist Prime]

1 hour ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Even then?

 

The Houthi's, nor Hamas, Hexbollah or even Asaad are Shia Muslims.

 

Which underscores these are armed gangs vying for control whatever way they can.  It's less fundamental, or more simple, than it would seem @Optimist Prime. When these countries can be controlled by viable justice systems, police. Case in point, who in  Gaza was going to arrest Yahya Sinwar when he was strangling people sympathetic to Israel; rather than pay willingly their local security fee? Where is there a stable govt., with a legitimate police force? Who combat and control armed gangs for all. Minorities might start to live in peace & work together on any one ME nations wealth. 

 

Instead they start their own militia group.

Yeah, good post. Houthi's are in a similar vein to Shi'a from my understanding it falls under the broader context of Shi'a at least, I am not an expert at all but i recall there are around 18 or so larger subsects that would fall under Shia, and maybe two dozen larger subsects that would fall under Sunni, all going back to two followers of their prophet having differing opinions on ether or not to follow the shoe or the gourd, to borrow a phrase from Monty Python. But i agree, from what I gather the people of Gaza are predominantly Sunni or Sunni affiliated sects, for those that are in that religion. I think in this case, the Shi'a masters in Iran are quite simply using them as one would use a tool. Easily discarded once broken. 

[Optimist Prime]

I am fascinated with history but i do tend to gloss over the bulk of the reading room fodder as it is just too time consuming to sum up in a social media post. For me, things were progressing towards a full time peace and prosperity moment by evening of Oct 6th. The massacre on Oct 7th is the chapter I am concerned with now, as I have said many times, none of us has a time machine so talking about the previous 5000 years of human history to get to the context of this war is really just not necessary, as I said earlier today there are 110, roughly, non-international armed conflicts going on at this moment on earth that we are aware of. That is about half the nations on earth. Just in Yemen in the last decade 160,000 babies and toddlers have died due to the conflict there> we don't need a history lesson on Gaza to understand the situation there is unjust for most if not all on both and all sides. But it is interesting, for sure for those with the time. Hamas needs to be ended in any capacity to carry on their campaign of terror. I hope that can be finished off with as little side deaths as possible, but again they hide among and below hospitals, schools and apartments, so it will be bloody. It is a bloody mess, defined. 

[Canuck Surfer]

4 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

I think in this case, the Shi'a masters in Iran are quite simply using them as one would use a tool. Easily discarded once broken. 

 

Attacks on the Red Sea by Houthi's are bought and paid for by someone...

 

Maybe they think they can be a bigger power, with more support, by someone, if they attack Red Sea shipping?

 

 

To me taking on major Western Powers while they are already engaged in a civil war is dumb.  They have consolidate some power. They also have attacked the Saudi's. This is the 4th or 5th biggest spender on their military in the world.  The Kingdom, who spends almost 10 times what Iran does.  It just tactically does not make sense to me. Just like Hamas. Asking for the death of their citizens.

[Optimist Prime]

1 minute ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Attacks on the Red Sea by Houthi's are bought and paid for by someone...

 

Maybe they think they can be a bigger power, with more support, by someone, if they attack Red Sea shipping?

 

 

To me taking on major Western Powers while they are already engaged in a civil war is dumb.  They have consolidate some power. They also have attacked the Saudi's. This is the 4th or 5th biggest spender on their military in the world.  The Kingdom, who spends almost 10 times what Iran does.  It just tactically does not make sense to me. Just like Hamas. Asking for the death of their citizens.

It doesn't have to make sense when it is born in religion. right? Iran is a Theocratic nation. nuff said. Saudi's may be muslims but they worship that cold hard cash as hard as Trump does. 

[Canuck Surfer]

2 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

It doesn't have to make sense when it is born in religion. right? Iran is a Theocratic nation. nuff said. Saudi's may be muslims but they worship that cold hard cash as hard as Trump does. 

 

They all seem to make up religious anecdotes, as if they are scripture as it suits them?  The Saudi Kingdom can focus on profits as they're position is pretty solid. Compared to say Hamas, or Houthis' anyway, in an understatement. To them, it may be more about Sunni vs Shia?

 

I find it interesting that Muslim religions have been more adaptable over time. Prophets free and clear to re-design what& to whom everyone must pray for? Where, of course, which direction your favorite prophet took a fundamental difference between rival factions like S vs S. History, even King Henry, tells us religion adapts to who has the most guns! 

 

Depredation raids were a regular part of activities by Muhammad himself 1400 years ago. He was a warlord. Who led marauding conquests to acquire territory which could supply food & secure goods not only for trade? To feed his flocks & pay his militia. Apparently even came home from such expeditions with new wives, concubines for his harems. I mean these were all Holy Wars, right?

 

As they are now...

 

Has this made any of these leaders any less corrupt? Trump once again (becoming) an important part of such discussions...

[Ilunga]

2 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

I really don't understand why this gets glossed over? Imagine if Arafat had actually wanted peace, where would Gaza be now?

 

So Arafat didn't want peace when it was him that approached Norway in 1979 to provide a secret back chanel to the Isrealis, Isreal wasn't willing to talk then.

 

And then in 1988 he recognised UN resolutions 242 and 348 which granted Isreal a window to " secure and recognised boundaries " and allowed it to continue its occupation in strategic parts of the west bank.

 

https://remix.aljazeera.com/aje/PalestineRemix/the-price-of-oslo.html

 

Then in 1993 in a letter to the then Isreali PM he recognised the state of  Isreal.

And renounced violence.

 

Now we can debate how he went about this, like Isreals Netanyahus government, Arafat/ the PLO was an umbrella group for many disparate Palestinian groups.

At times he could have done more to quell violence,then at times such as in 1996 after a bunch of Hamas bus bombings in Israel, he did oppose Hamas and tried to uproot it's terrorist infrastructure. 

 

To be truth fully honest IMO he was a lot like Netanyahu, manipulating the different groups for his own ends.

 

However what can't be argued is that he did make some concrete steps in an effort to make peace with the Isrealis.

[Canuck Surfer]

19 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

To be truth fully honest IMO he was a lot like Netanyahu, manipulating the different groups for his own ends.

 

Plus one commentary.

 

Bibi making the most (  ) of winning a minority mandate. 

[Ilunga]

2 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Told by an Arab Israeli; the orders to leave in 1948 came from Arabs, not Jews.

 

This corresponds to history as told by @RomanPer back in the CDC version of this thread?  

 

 

 

For starters there is no thread about the conflict in Gaza on the old board.

 

And I don't believe anyone has challenged the actual real history behind this this conflict. 

 

I would like the people who have acknowledged your post to acknowledge the truth about Isreal illegally taking land since then.

Taking land not due to war.

 

And talk about the process of giving land back so they, the Palestinians can form a viable state.

[Ilunga]

6 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Plus one commentary.

 

Bibi making the most (  ) of winning a minority mandate. 

 

But so was Arafat, as I have stated I find them very similar people, that were/ are in very similar situations.

 

History illustrates that it was Arafat that made the first move to try and make peace with the Isrealis and did follow through.

Could he have done a better job, 100 percent he could have.

 

I find the only real difference between Arafat and Netanyahu is that Netanyahu has never wanted peace, he has actually bragged about this.

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, Optimist Prime said:

I am fascinated with history but i do tend to gloss over the bulk of the reading room fodder as it is just too time consuming to sum up in a social media post. For me, things were progressing towards a full time peace and prosperity moment by evening of Oct 6th. The massacre on Oct 7th is the chapter I am concerned with now, as I have said many times, none of us has a time machine so talking about the previous 5000 years of human history to get to the context of this war is really just not necessary, as I said earlier today there are 110, roughly, non-international armed conflicts going on at this moment on earth that we are aware of. That is about half the nations on earth. Just in Yemen in the last decade 160,000 babies and toddlers have died due to the conflict there> we don't need a history lesson on Gaza to understand the situation there is unjust for most if not all on both and all sides. But it is interesting, for sure for those with the time. Hamas needs to be ended in any capacity to carry on their campaign of terror. I hope that can be finished off with as little side deaths as possible, but again they hide among and below hospitals, schools and apartments, so it will be bloody. It is a bloody mess, defined. 

 

I find it sad that I started a thread about the Humanitarian crisis in Yemen on the old board, that from memory only @Canuck Surfer contributed to, and now the situation is kinda being used as a propaganda tool in regards to the conflict in Gaza, in regards to Muslim militants. 

 

As for this discussion about the October the 7th attack, how can we discuss this properly without giving the situation some context, the history leading into it.

In no way does this justify the violence committed on that day. 

 

As I stated in a previous post, Jerusalem itself has been attacked 52 times, besieged 52 times and recaptured 44 times. 

What does this tell you about this " holy " city.

And about the " holy " land. 

[Super19]

Let's not forget that in history there were indeed peaceful times where the Abrahmic religions enjoyed peace in the holy land. Jews and Muslims included.