Hamas attacking Israel

[Super19]

8 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

I don't begrudge your point.  Its terrible seeing people suffer, morphine also saves lives simply by the amount of trauma it subdues. 

 

This stat line in Ukraine though is not just false, its farcical. There are over 25,000 unmarked graves North of Mariupol. Like in Gaza, where 85% of all apartment buildings and homes were levelled. Reportedly 10 to 30 average, sometimes 50 who were hiding for shelter under each collapsed apartment building. In some cases 100. So many dead the stench of rotting corpses to be smelled 20 & 30 km's away as Spring became summer in 2022. Yet Katchanvoski in that tweet says only 2224 have been killed by Russia & separatists.

 

What a track record of preserving human life?  

 

I do not think you should be trusting Russian Twitter accounts to update the UN. I also remind you Hamas deliberately invited invasion.  This is a war they wanted.

Hamas invited 2 choices for Israel. 1) invasion 2) hostage-prisoner exchange

 

It's put Israel between a rock and a hard place. Politically I don't see how Israel wins.

[Super19]

3 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

No, I don't. Percentage of Palestinian population who don't want Jews there at all is much higher than the small number of people that are trying to work for peace. And before you send me a link to some warmongering, Palestinians-hating Israelis - Israel had 5 elections in the last several year, for one simple reason - there's a divide in Israeli society on the topic of how to co-exist with the Palestinians and neither side can claim unanimous victory. The Knesset is constantly split almost in half. The true "hawks" are actually a smaller group, it just so happened that after the last election they became part of the coalition.

You keep equatting Jews with ultra nationalistic Israelis who want nothing more than to be rid of Palestinians in the land these Zionists believe is their God-given right to inhabit.

[Ilunga]

6 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

No, I don't. Percentage of Palestinian population who don't want Jews there at all is much higher than the small number of people that are trying to work for peace. And before you send me a link to some warmongering, Palestinians-hating Israelis - Israel had 5 elections in the last several year, for one simple reason - there's a divide in Israeli society on the topic of how to co-exist with the Palestinians and neither side can claim unanimous victory. The Knesset is constantly split almost in half. The true "hawks" are actually a smaller group, it just so happened that after the last election they became part of the coalition.

 

As I stated in another post, vocal minorities usually have a voice that is disproportionately louder than the size of the group involved, in any society you care to name. 

Especially fanatics, which both the Palestinians and Israelis have numbers of. 

 

It was you that brought up the " hate filled " Palestinians kids.

I simply pointed out that there was Isreali kids doing the same thing, on a larger platform, one that literally the whole world could access.

From memory I didn't even post a link.

I won't use kids for propaganda purposes. 

 

While Israel keeps taking land in the west bank there is no chance that the Palestinians can form a viable state. 

 

Are Palestinians meant to form a state that only consists of Gaza ?

An area that is the quarter the size of London ? 

 

As I have stated Israel does have long ties to the city of Jerusalem however so do the Arabs/ Palestinians and the Armenians.

Don't they have have the right to live there to ? 

 

Traditional Jewish thought stated that the Jews had been exiled from as a punishment from their god.

They could only return in Messianic times.

It's seems the fundamentalists Jews, the Jews  who make up the bulk of people who are illegally settling on Palestinian territory have changed their minds, or do they believe they do indeed, live in the messianic times.

 

Whatever their beliefs, as I have consistently stated, my belief is that both Jews and Palestinians have the right to self determination and also to live in free and just societies.

No ifs, buts or maybes.

Don't you agree ?

[Ilunga]

7 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

Interesting that @Ilunga liked this post. You don't have to dig deep to find out that this is exactly what the large portion of the right wing in Israel wants  

 

I was the first, in this thread, to suggest a one state solution way back.

I also in reply to that post stated, the governance would have to be shared. 

And no, that is not what the right wing in Israel wants. 

 

https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/17/middleeast/israel-far-right-gaza-settler-movement-cmd-intl/index.html

 

 

When one group of people control another group of people, without that group of people having representation, what do you call the group of people who are being controlled victims of ?

 

 

 

 

[Warhippy]

1 hour ago, Ilunga said:

 

I was the first, in this thread, to suggest a one state solution way back.

I also in reply to that post stated, the governance would have to be shared. 

And no, that is not what the right wing in Israel wants. 

 

https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/17/middleeast/israel-far-right-gaza-settler-movement-cmd-intl/index.html

 

 

When one group of people control another group of people, without that group of people having representation, what do you call the group of people who are being controlled victims of ?

 

 

 

 

Up until about 29 years ago, first nations individuals 

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, Warhippy said:

Up until about 29 years ago, first nations individuals 

 

Yes I have commented on the situation of first nations people here in Aus. 

Was very disappointed with the result of the last referendum.

An indigenous voice to Parliament. 

 

Here is a good summation of the current representation of first nations people in our Federal Parliament, which is a record number, however this article explains why an indigenous voice to Parliament would have been a positive thing for first nations people.

 

https://theconversation.com/with-11-indigenous-politicians-in-parliament-why-does-australia-need-the-voice-200910

 

[RomanPer]

13 hours ago, Super19 said:

You keep equatting Jews with ultra nationalistic Israelis who want nothing more than to be rid of Palestinians in the land these Zionists believe is their God-given right to inhabit.

 

I keep? Are you reading my posts correctly? Because I wrote completely opposite, trying to explain that Israelis have very different opinions on the whole situation.

[Canuck Surfer]

16 hours ago, Super19 said:

Hamas invited 2 choices for Israel. 1) invasion 2) hostage-prisoner exchange

 

That seems a pretty open minded view of reality regarding point 2? 

 

For better or worse Hamas achieved most of both goals.  I can see why you cheer for them!  

[Canuck Surfer]

All these countries signed a declaration condemning Russia's attack of Ukraine where more than 500,000 are dead. 2.75 Million people were displaced in 3 weeks between Feb & March 2022; the most in human history in such a short period. Most signatories below provide humanitarian support to both Gaza & Yemen. Sudan, Somalia, Ethiopia? Nobody did enough in the DRC, Rhodesia, Uganda. Signatories have protestor's that support Palestinians, take on refugees. Ukraine suffering still underwhelms Yemen, Sudan if you include starvation.

 

Tell me Arab & Muslim countries; how come none of you give a sh!t? On a different front; where is South Africa...

 

100,000 a year are dead or displaced in S Africa to tribalism.  14,000 dead in their own country. Xhola versus Zulu. Zulu versus Tutsi, Swahili.

 

Political brownie points for S Africa, or are human rights actually important?

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

 

Edited January 24 by Canuck Surfer

[Super19]

7 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

I keep? Are you reading my posts correctly? Because I wrote completely opposite, trying to explain that Israelis have very different opinions on the whole situation.

Okay. Here's hoping the people for inclusion and co-existing prevail on both sides.

[Super19]

4 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

That seems a pretty open minded view of reality regarding point 2? 

 

For better or worse Hamas achieved most of both goals.  I can see why you cheer for them!  

I don't think it's that far open minded. There came a point very early on where I saw Israel's response was extremely disproportionate. Israel had every right to launch attacks against Hamas, and even some leeway for collateral. But I saw the attack against Hamas turn into a rage on Gaza. Collateral damage looked more and more like collective punishment. It's a response that looks like genocidal rage. Nentanyahu would have been better off listening to the earliest unified calls for a ceasefire, get the hostages returned, and turn to the diplomatic table. Instead, Nentanyahu chose - well... you know exactly what's going on.

 

Israel is not capable of what you wish for - targetted dismantling of Hamas through sheer force without all this destruction to Gaza and its innocent life.

 

Tell me how Israel is going to eliminate Hamas with the way they are going? It doesn't look like the way for lasting peace in the region. From what I've been reading, even tensions within Israel are boiling up.

[Super19]

Co-exist?

 

[RomanPer]

22 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Co-exist?

 

 

Sure, hundreds of protesters represent 7 millions living in a country. Plus, there are a few more things - 1) how do we know they are doing what the tweet claims? I see people with Israeli flags singing “People of Israel are alive, our father is alive”, typical Jewish semi-religious, semi-patriotic song; 2) I would love to see video of people in Gaza standing in front of Hamas, protesting against attacks on Israeli civilians.

[Super19]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/24/us-navy-cargo-ships-houthi-missile-attack-yemen

 

Yemen still enforcing the naval blockade for weeks after US intervention is unbelievable. 

[Bob Long]

2 minutes ago, Super19 said:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/24/us-navy-cargo-ships-houthi-missile-attack-yemen

 

Yemen still enforcing the naval blockade for weeks after US intervention is unbelievable. 

 

nah, it isn't. The US is acting gently, they could wipe them all out this afternoon if they were willing to deal with some higher collateral damage risk. 

[Super19]

1 hour ago, Bob Long said:

 

nah, it isn't. The US is acting gently, they could wipe them all out this afternoon if they were willing to deal with some higher collateral damage risk. 

Not just that but also escalations in the region. Houthis would target Saudi oil if escalations occurred.

 

US has asked China to talk to Iran to control the Houthis/Yemen. China has no interest in these escalations and are saying they'd rather have a ceasefire in Gaza and in turn Yemen lifts the blockade on Israel - which is the intended result of their ask by the US.

[Alflives]

5 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Not just that but also escalations in the region. Houthis would target Saudi oil if escalations occurred.

 

US has asked China to talk to Iran to control the Houthis/Yemen. China has no interest in these escalations and are saying they'd rather have a ceasefire in Gaza and in turn Yemen lifts the blockade on Israel - which is the intended result of their ask by the US.

The important thing we might miss is the groups supported be the evil of Putin, Iran, China, and those other nasty types, are bad people. Hamas is bad. They need to be eliminated. I don’t blame the citizens of Gaza. Many of those  people are young and have been programmed by Hammas. It will take at least one genetic to cleans the younger folk in Gaza. 

[Canuck Surfer]

8 hours ago, Super19 said:

I don't think it's that far open minded. There came a point very early on where I saw Israel's response was extremely disproportionate. Israel had every right to launch attacks against Hamas, and even some leeway for collateral. But I saw the attack against Hamas turn into a rage on Gaza. Collateral damage looked more and more like collective punishment. It's a response that looks like genocidal rage. Nentanyahu would have been better off listening to the earliest unified calls for a ceasefire, get the hostages returned, and turn to the diplomatic table. Instead, Nentanyahu chose - well... you know exactly what's going on.

 

Israel is not capable of what you wish for - targetted dismantling of Hamas through sheer force without all this destruction to Gaza and its innocent life.

 

Tell me how Israel is going to eliminate Hamas with the way they are going? It doesn't look like the way for lasting peace in the region. From what I've been reading, even tensions within Israel are boiling up.

 

Not that i disagree with the bolded statement.

 

 

Supplying babies to someone you think is a Paedophile, if i can exaggerate (sorta) to make a point, who end up dead?  Is still tacit murder of their own people.

 

I'll repeat, my disgust in yourself cheering for these Hamas tactics, goals. Feeding their own to abuse, slaughter. 

 

A pimp who's traditional clients might prefer as an exclusive, this ritual in old Arab brothel? Is what I would describe. A pimp who does not care, just thirsty for business.

Underground operators that just set up shop in the next cantina when it gets raided. When too many bub's turn up dead. This analogy is much closer to truth than fiction. 

 

I can assure you Hamas is a business, not a moral agenda. Even if sold to many as such.

[Ilunga]

6 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Not that i disagree with the bolded statement.

 

 

Supplying babies to someone you think is a Paedophile, if i can exaggerate (sorta) to make a point, who end up dead?  Is still tacit murder of their own people.

 

I'll repeat, my disgust in yourself cheering for these Hamas tactics, goals. Feeding their own to abuse, slaughter. 

 

A pimp who's traditional clients might prefer as an exclusive, this ritual in old Arab brothel? Is what I would describe. A pimp who does not care, just thirsty for business.

Underground operators that just set up shop in the next cantina when it gets raided. When too many bub's turn up dead. This analogy is much closer to truth than fiction. 

 

I can assure you Hamas is a business, not a moral agenda. Even if sold to many as such.

 

Hamas is not a business.

 

Hamas is a group of fanatics that believe committing acts of brutality and violence is justified in regards to forming an independent Palestinian state.

 

Much like the Israeli terror groups acts of violence and brutality that were committed during their war of independence, Israelis forming an independent state.

 

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2021-12-09/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/classified-docs-reveal-deir-yassin-massacre-wasnt-the-only-one-perpetrated-by-isra/0000017f-e496-d7b2-a77f-e79772340000

 

 " The Cabinet minister Haim-Moshe Shapira said that all of Isreals moral foundations had been undermined. Minister David Remez remarked that the deeds that had been done remove us from the category of Jews and from the category of human beings altogether. Other ministers were also appalled. "

[Canuck Surfer]

1 minute ago, Ilunga said:

 

Hamas is not a business.

 

Your kidding yourself.

 

Its an elaborate business they heisted from Arafat.

 

Not that they don't sell themselves as fundamental, have believers that feel the organization wholesome.

 

Same as televangelists who make millions in the US.  Billy Graham, etc. etc. But much more sinister, a larger scale & sacrifice anything to gain power, countries, resources.

 

 

Its true of most militant autocrats.  Gaddafi, Anwar Sadat, Pol Pot, Arafat, Yemeni Dictator Saleh, Idi Amin, I could go on.  All die amongst richest billionaires in history.

[Canuck Surfer]

15 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

Israeli terror groups acts of violence and brutality that were committed during their war of independence

 

I have never shied from what blame Israel has. That analogy I used? It certainly did not paint Bibi in the best light inclusive!

 

In spite of being recognized by charter?  Yes, Israel exist because they won their war of independence. A war they did not start, but ended. Much like Oct 7. Virtually every border in the world was re-written by conflict in the 1940's.  Yes, also, others including yourself should read about the Pogroms against Jews. Not in Germany, Poland, or Russia. In places like Hebron, by Arabs against Jews in 1929 / 1930.  Jewish people banded together to win a territory. There was conflict and terror groups on both sides.

 

Google Haj Amin; its not a Jewish name.

 

Research other Arab groups that solidified territory in that time frame.  2/3rds of Palestinians from the British Palestine ended up as part of Jordans Kingdom in 1947. Who, along with Bedouin and Egyptian, Syrian and Lebanese Arab's not only seemed to have sold out the Palestinians displaced 'by Israel.' Had their own ambitions on these lands.  Clearly these people did not represent themselves well.  They rejected all opportunities to start their own state.  Palestinian leadership remains & always was a massive part of the blame; even where there were Hawks along along the wire fence borders picking them off, including Jews.

 

Your sense of reality is fair, but far too focussed on a single source of combatants.

 

Lose a war? Get F'd!

 

A universal principal.

 

[Canuck Surfer]

A key reason Palestinians keep falling victim is the corruption of their leadership!

 

Their goals don't have Palestinians, or diplomacy as their goal.

 

They win their power by using gangs to control the streets & Mosques, overwhelm police, even military where it exists. Judiciary.  Win hearts, loyalty and payola providing security against other gangs. Not be diplomacy, democracy. Tell people its Gods will, but they have no other choice. Use power to create wealth for themselves.  

 

Feudal victories determine who has power.

 

Its sad.

[Super19]

If Hamas is a business, I think they would go out of business if a Palestinian state comes into fruition. 

You/Israel say their business is exploiting the Palestinian cause for their&their masters gain? Cut it off, disenfranchise them by giving Palestine their state.

 

You'll likely see the Civil War of palestenians against Hamas if hamas did anything to jeoperdize their new found freedom.

Edited January 25 by Super19

[Ilunga]

1 minute ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Your kidding yourself.

 

Its an elaborate business they heisted from Arafat.

 

Not that they don't sell themselves as fundamental, have believers that feel the organization wholesome.

 

Same as televangelists who make millions in the US.  Billy Graham, etc. etc. But much more sinister, a larger scale & sacrifice anything to gain power, countries, resources.

 

 

Its true of most militant autocrats.  Gaddafi, Anwar Sadat, Pol Pot, Arafat, Yemeni Dictator Saleh, Idi Amin, I could go on.  All die amongst richest billionaires in history.

 

I am not kidding myself.

 

 

You are talking about a minority of corrupt leaders that make up small percentage of the terror group Hamas.

The vast majority of Hamas members are fanatics that aren't engaged in business activities, or could be said to be wealthy.

 

 

And in regards to your claims about militant autocrats who die amongst the richest billionaires I history, multiple sources on the web state that the political head of Hamas Yahya Sinwar is worth somewhere between $1- 3 million.

Lets put that into context with Gina Reinhardt, Andrew Forrest and Harry Triguboff,  Australias three richest people, their wealth has doubled since 2020, at a rate of $1.5 million an hour according to an Oxfam report. 

 

Anyway Hamas is not a business, its leaders, that small minority I mentioned that make up " the government " of Gaza are corrupt and make money at the expense of th their fellow citizens.

The vast majority are terrorists.