Hamas attacking Israel

[Ilunga]

17 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

I have never shied from what blame Israel has. That analogy I used? It certainly did not paint Bibi in the best light inclusive!

 

In spite of being recognized by charter?  Yes, Israel exist because they won their war of independence. A war they did not start, but ended. Much like Oct 7. Virtually every border in the world was re-written by conflict in the 1940's.  Yes, also, others including yourself should read about the Pogroms against Jews. Not in Germany, Poland, or Russia. In places like Hebron, by Arabs against Jews in 1929 / 1930.  Jewish people banded together to win a territory. There was conflict and terror groups on both sides.

 

Google Haj Amin; its not a Jewish name.

 

Research other Arab groups that solidified territory in that time frame.  2/3rds of Palestinians from the British Palestine ended up as part of Jordans Kingdom in 1947. Who, along with Bedouin and Egyptian, Syrian and Lebanese Arab's not only seemed to have sold out the Palestinians displaced 'by Israel.' Had their own ambitions on these lands.  Clearly these people did not represent themselves well.  They rejected all opportunities to start their own state.  Palestinian leadership remains & always was a massive part of the blame; even where there were Hawks along along the wire fence borders picking them off, including Jews.

 

Your sense of reality is fair, but far too focussed on a single source of combatants.

 

Lose a war? Get F'd!

 

A universal principal.

 

 

I have known about the persecution that was practised by both Jews and Palestinians, in Palestine in the early to mid 20th century, I do not need to research it. 

I have never denied Isreals right to exist or that they had the right to defend themselves when they have been attacked, not just in 1948, but also at times since.

 

I have also never stated that the Palestinian leadership is not at fault, I have condemned Hamas many times now.

 

Why I focus on the Palestinians is that I, like many people from all parts of our world including many Israelis themselves, believe they are victims of persecution, long before the October 7th attack.

I, like most if not all of the world believe that the Palestinians deserve the right of self determination.

 

I could state that most of the posters focus on the Isrealis in this thread. 

They don't admit to the acts of violence that the state of Israel was founded on.

They don't admit  to the acts of violence the settlers inflict upon Palestinians.

They don't admit to the fact that the Isrealis are illegally settling land.

I can't even get some posters to agree to the fact that Palestinians have the right to self determination and to live in a free and just society.

 

As for lose a war your fucked ?

 

Would you feel that way if Ukraine happens to lose their war, this being a universal principle ? 

I know this isn't the attitude I would take.

 

[Canuck Surfer]

5 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

Hamas Yahya Sinwar is worth somewhere between $1- 3 million.

 

Leader is a loose term with Sinwar.  He is the muscle. The hit man who serves the money. His own is well hidden. His compound destroyed last month in, by memory, Khan Yunis alone twice that?

 

Google the wealth of;

 

Bashar Al Asaad

Uncle Vlad Putin

Robert Mugabe

Hosni Mubarak

Ali Bongo

Muammar Gaddafi

Kim Jong Il & Un

Pinochet

Adolf Hitler

Fidel Castro

Saddam Hussein

Sani Abacha

Zine Ben Ali

Mobuto Seko

Ferdinand Marcos

Suharto

Ali Abdullah Saleh

 

Palestinians; Yasir Arafat, Ismail Haniyeh, Moussa Abu Marzuk, Khaleed Mashal.  

In Israel Yaov Gallant controlled enough wealth Bibi was rendered a pawn, or complicit. Sacked him in March last year, but here he is back as defense minister?

 

Some above controlled as much as 40% of their countries GDP as personal wealth. All inflicted terror.

 

These bastards don't do it for their peoples health, or religious beliefs. These are control tools. People, traditions are martyred routinely, without a thought to attain these wealths. Lets just agree its my opinion people are kidding themselves?  

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

5 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

Would you feel that way if Ukraine happens to lose their war, this being a universal principle ? 

 

Ukraine has been F'd losing wars to Russia for centuries. Our family lucky to have escaped.

[Canuck Surfer]

https://www.arabnews.com/node/2275961/middle-east

 

Israel, even Roman would agree, has its own share of corruption.  Its moderated by democracy. Sorta?

 

That such factors currently control legislative balance of power is one key reason Gaza is under siege.

 

Just like when Bush's cronies sniffed Weapons of Mass Destruction. 

 

 

That said, Israel has stopped conducting wars with Jordan, Egypt, with peace deals. Palestinians have never ceased their quest; Jerusalem.

 

I am soon to give up on my own two state views.  Not by choice, or by by own morals.  It simply depends on whether Likud stays in power through this war.  Among Likud are the Israel's Donald Trump comparables; if not so creepy & openly narcissistic? Just as dangerous in the scale of their sphere. In spite of this, and its NOT my wish. I prefer Gazan's being turned over to international peace keepers and disarmed. Protected from themselves, Hamas / Fatah, & Israel. 

 

Yet I am more realist than idealist. I believe Gazan's will still be better served by @Ilunga's one state concept. It just will be won by war & unfortunate death, not the groups agreeing to it. It appears to be what is happening.

Edited January 25 by Canuck Surfer

[Ilunga]

6 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Leader is a loose term with Sinwar.  He is the muscle. The hit man who serves the money. His own is well hidden. His compound destroyed last month in, by memory, Khan Yunis alone twice that?

 

Google the wealth of;

 

Bashar Al Asaad

Uncle Vlad Putin

Robert Mugabe

Hosni Mubarak

Ali Bongo

Muammar Gaddafi

Kim Jong Il & Un

Pinochet

Adolf Hitler

Fidel Castro

Saddam Hussein

Sani Abacha

Zine Ben Ali

Mobuto Seko

Ferdinand Marcos

Suharto

Ali Abdullah Saleh

 

Palestinians; Yasir Arafat, Ismail Haniyeh, Moussa Abu Marzuk, Khaleed Mashal.  

In Israel Yaov Gallant controlled enough wealth Bibi was rendered a pawn, or complicit. Sacked him in March last year, but here he is back as defense minister?

 

Some above controlled as much as 40% of their countries GDP as personal wealth. All inflicted terror.

 

These bastards don't do it for their peoples health, or religious beliefs. These are control tools. People, traditions are martyred routinely, without a thought to attain these wealths. Lets just agree its my opinion people are kidding themselves?  

 

 

 

I have already googled Hamas financial " empire"

Also the wealth of a few at " top " as opposed to how the many suffer poverty.

There are supposedly 600 millionaires in Gaza while hundreds of thousands live in poverty. 

 

The hitman as you put it is the head of the al - Qassam brigade's Mohammad Deif who is reportedly worth $5 million. 

 

Have I ever stated that I believe the leadership of Hamas acts, or even cares about the Palestinian people ?

No I have not. 

 

I don't believe that many of the people who are elected to represent people in societies around the world actually care about the people they are meant to represent. 

 

Talking about bastards and who they are, a liberal party, right wing, politician left his party in 1977 and formed the Australian Democrats, their slogan being, let's keep the bastards honest.

Lets face it, most of them of bastards. 

I do believe that Albo and even Turnbull cares/ cared about us the Australian people, however all the others since Keating couldn't give a rat's arse.

Howard, Abbott and Morrison.

[Ilunga]

27 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Ukraine has been F'd losing wars to Russia for centuries. Our family lucky to have escaped.

 

I am sorry to hear this.

 

Why would you state that, if you lose a war you are fucked,  as some form of justification, when your family have been victims of this ?

[Super19]

Documented war crime, take it to the ICJ. One of many. No one to blame but the IDF, this is blatant.

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Ilunga]

14 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

 

Thanks for posting this, as a farmer this really hits home.

 

I have been saying for decades our stupid species will soon be fighting wars over water.

We have fought them over oil, we lived for over hundreds of thousands of years with out using oil/ petroleum based products, with out water there would be no life as we know it on this planet. 

 

In regards to food production, over 30 percent of the food we produce, 1.3 billion metric tons world wide is wasted each year. 

 

What does this tell you about us ?

[Super19]

Many of the initial narratives surrounding Oct 7 are turning out to be false:

Also this, @RomanPer @Optimist Prime @Bob Long the Health Ministry numbers, the same numbers which had been proven to be reliable in all previous wars, are once again, reliable according to Israel - but heres the kicker, these numbers from the ministry could very well be an undercount And for 3 months we were told to not trust these numbers, yet Israel had not been counting this entire time.

 

[Super19]

11 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

Thanks for posting this, as a farmer this really hits home.

 

I have been saying for decades our stupid species will soon be fighting wars over water.

We have fought them over oil, we lived for over hundreds of thousands of years with out using oil/ petroleum based products, with out water there would be no life as we know it on this planet. 

"

Israel’s theft of Palestinian water

• Israel systematically denies Palestinians in the occupied territories and parts of Israel access to clean and safe drinking water. Israel steals more than 80% of water in the occupied West Bank and expropriates it for use in illegal settlements, denying Palestinians access to water while supplying Israeli settlers with enough water to fill swimming pools, irrigate crops, and wash vehicles. 
• Because of Israeli restrictions, Palestinians living in the occupied West Bank and Gaza are restricted from drilling water wells and installing water pumps, and are denied access to the Jordan River and freshwater springs. The Israeli army also regularly destroys Palestinian pipelines and water tanks, blocking Palestinians from even collecting rainwater. As a result, Palestinians are forced to live on an average of just 19 gallons of water per day—well below the WHO minimum.
• In 2017, Amnesty International released a report entitled, “The Occupation of Water.” It concluded: “50 years on, it is time for the Israeli authorities to put an end to policies and practices which discriminate against Palestinians in the [occupied Palestinian territories] and to address their desperate need for water security. The Israeli authorities must lift the restrictions currently in place which deny millions of Palestinians access to sufficient water to meet their personal and domestic needs as well as to enjoy their rights to water, food, health, work and an adequate standard of living.”        
• Israel’s theft of Palestinian water causes severe environmental damage. Since 1967, Israel has consolidated complete control over all Palestinian water sources in the occupied territories. Israel’s over-extraction of Palestinian water sources has caused a drop in the water table and a distortion in the natural flow of groundwater, increasing vulnerability to extreme weather events such as floods and droughts, which damage Palestinian agricultural and residential areas. Over time, Israel has also degraded the water quality of the single largest source of freshwater, the Sea of Galilee, by clearcutting 25,000 acres of native wetlands and draining Lake Hula to make room for farming settlements."

11 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

In regards to food production, over 30 percent of the food we produce, 1.3 billion metric tons world wide is wasted each year. 

 

What does this tell you about us ?

[Ilunga]

13 minutes ago, Super19 said:

"

Israel’s theft of Palestinian water

• Israel systematically denies Palestinians in the occupied territories and parts of Israel access to clean and safe drinking water. Israel steals more than 80% of water in the occupied West Bank and expropriates it for use in illegal settlements, denying Palestinians access to water while supplying Israeli settlers with enough water to fill swimming pools, irrigate crops, and wash vehicles. 
• Because of Israeli restrictions, Palestinians living in the occupied West Bank and Gaza are restricted from drilling water wells and installing water pumps, and are denied access to the Jordan River and freshwater springs. The Israeli army also regularly destroys Palestinian pipelines and water tanks, blocking Palestinians from even collecting rainwater. As a result, Palestinians are forced to live on an average of just 19 gallons of water per day—well below the WHO minimum.
• In 2017, Amnesty International released a report entitled, “The Occupation of Water.” It concluded: “50 years on, it is time for the Israeli authorities to put an end to policies and practices which discriminate against Palestinians in the [occupied Palestinian territories] and to address their desperate need for water security. The Israeli authorities must lift the restrictions currently in place which deny millions of Palestinians access to sufficient water to meet their personal and domestic needs as well as to enjoy their rights to water, food, health, work and an adequate standard of living.”        
• Israel’s theft of Palestinian water causes severe environmental damage. Since 1967, Israel has consolidated complete control over all Palestinian water sources in the occupied territories. Israel’s over-extraction of Palestinian water sources has caused a drop in the water table and a distortion in the natural flow of groundwater, increasing vulnerability to extreme weather events such as floods and droughts, which damage Palestinian agricultural and residential areas. Over time, Israel has also degraded the water quality of the single largest source of freshwater, the Sea of Galilee, by clearcutting 25,000 acres of native wetlands and draining Lake Hula to make room for farming settlements."

 

 

Clicked onto this link in that article you posted.

 

https://www.hrw.org/report/2010/12/19/separate-and-unequal/israels-discriminatory-treatment-palestinians-occupied

 

Even if you want to ignore many of the things the report states, what about this 

 

" Isreals highest court has ruled that certain measures imposed upon Palestinians citizens of Israel were illegal because they were discriminatory. The court has also ruled that certain Israeli military measures in the west bank, including bans on Palestinian drivers using roads and the route of certain parts of Israel's seperation barrier have disproportionately harmed Palestinians when weighed against the benefits to settlers and other Israelis " 

 

Even the Israeli justice/legal system states Israel practices discrimination against the Palestinians.

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Canuck Surfer]

6 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

I am sorry to hear this.

 

Why would you state that, if you lose a war you are fucked,  as some form of justification, when your family have been victims of this ?

 

Its just the reality of it. Has nothing to do with justification, morals.

 

My Grandfather was an orphan at 13. Russians were not the only 'countries' fighting, but he was their victim. GiGi was sent to Gulag work camps, then to the front as a conscripted soldier for the enemy. For a culture foreign to him? I have no idea. He did not talk about it. 

 

He came back to Ukraine after escaping. Home no longer his, family gone? He did say there was fighting over 'his home land.' So went to Poland to work. But gangs fought for control over unions by ethnicity & religion, for fighters. Not wanting this, was targeted anyway as our religion was a minority. Refugee's had a choice. Save yourself!

 

If lucky, if you can?  

 

In Canada farmers who also escaped Russia itself became welcome in his home. They actually gave him seed to plant his first crops. He helped build their houses. It's hard to describe, my father translated these stories. All escaped. The horrors of what happened to most not their fault either? No one bore grudges, worked together.      

 

If back in Europe; a rifle would have been thrust in his hand. You accept it or you are beaten, ostracized. Embrace it & become part of the cycle. Wars are merciless.

 

Especially for the losing side! 5 times more Ukrainians died in WWII than the combined English, American, Aussies & Canadians. Triple in WWI & exponential inbetween.

 

Same for Jews in that time frame. Much more % wise. Palestinians now?

 

 

 

Your F'd.  Palestinians should not be fighting a war against someone ten times their power. It does not serve them. You have to harness your anger, lead your best life.

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Its just the reality of it. Has nothing to do with justification, morals.

 

My Grandfather was an orphan at 13. Russians were not the only 'countries' fighting, but he was their victim. GiGi was sent to Gulag work camps, then to the front as a conscripted soldier for the enemy. For a culture foreign to him? I have no idea. He did not talk about it. 

 

He came back to Ukraine after escaping. Home no longer his, family gone? He did say there was fighting over 'his home land.' So went to Poland to work. But gangs fought for control over unions by ethnicity & religion, for fighters. Not wanting this, was targeted anyway as our religion was a minority. Refugee's had a choice. Save yourself!

 

If lucky, if you can?  

 

In Canada farmers who also escaped Russia itself became welcome in his home. They actually gave him seed to plant his first crops. He helped build their houses. It's hard to describe, my father translated these stories. All escaped. The horrors of what happened to most not their fault either? No one bore grudges, worked together.      

 

If back in Europe; a rifle would have been thrust in his hand. You accept it or you are beaten, ostracized. Embrace it & become part of the cycle. Wars are merciless.

 

Especially for the losing side! 5 times more Ukrainians died in WWII than the combined English, American, Aussies & Canadians. Triple in WWI & exponential inbetween.

 

Same for Jews in that time frame. Much more % wise. Palestinians now?

 

 

 

Your F'd.  Palestinians should not be fighting a war against someone ten times their power. It does not serve them. You have to harness your anger, lead your best life.

 

It has everything to do with morals.

Just because something has been a certain way forever doesn't make it right, or justifiable.

 

Well it's great to see our species evolving.

Using the same reasons to justify killing each other. 

Just because this is the way we acted in the past, that rationalises immoral and unjust acts in the present.

 

My dad lied about his age in order to charge up the beach of another country, to help free the people in that country, and other countries in Europe.

He didn't even make it up the beach.

 

The Palestinian people themselves aren't fighting a war against Israel, a terror group that makes a very small percentage of their population has and is committing acts of terror against them. 

 

Do you call it a war when 17th ranked military in the world has recorded over 22,000 strikes in 3 months alone on an area that is the quarter of the size of London.

 

Over 25,000 people killed in retaliation for the October 7th attacks.

70 percent of homes destroyed.

Do you call that a proportionate response ?

 

A big chunk of the civilised world is starting to state that this response is disproportionate. 

 

After all of what you stated in that post, I would expect you of all people to empathize with the Palestinians, who were victims long before the October 7th attacks.

Israel's own courts have stated this.

 

 

You know what I taught Lachlan ?

I taught him to treat others the way he wants to be treated himself, with dignity, respect and compassion.

That when others around him aren't treating him or others like that, it is even more important that he does this, that he remains true to what he is.

Do you comprehend my analogy in the context of the discussion we are having ?  

 

All any of us can take to the grave with us is being true to who we are.

 

I used the Nietzsche quote, beware that when fighting monsters, you yourself, do not become a monster

 

Is that what you want to mean to being true to yourself ?

Becoming that which you fight ?

 

 

 

[Yoshiyoshi]

5 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

It has everything to do with morals.

Just because something has been a certain way forever doesn't make it right, or justifiable.

 

Well it's great to see our species evolving.

Using the same reasons to justify killing each other. 

Just because this is the way we acted in the past, that rationalises immoral and unjust acts in the present.

 

My dad lied about his age in order to charge up the beach of another country, to help free the people in that country, and other countries in Europe.

He didn't even make it up the beach.

 

1.) The Palestinian people themselves aren't fighting a war against Israel, a terror group that makes a very small percentage of their population has and is committing acts of terror against them. 

 

2.)Do you call it a war when 17th ranked military in the world has recorded over 22,000 strikes in 3 months alone on an area that is the quarter of the size of London.

 

Over 25,000 people killed in retaliation for the October 7th attacks.

70 percent of homes destroyed.

Do you call that a proportionate response ?

 

A big chunk of the civilised world is starting to state that this response is disproportionate. 

 

After all of what you stated in that post, I would expect you of all people to empathize with the Palestinians, who were victims long before the October 7th attacks.

Israel's own courts have stated this.

 

 

You know what I taught Lachlan ?

I taught him to treat others the way he wants to be treated himself, with dignity, respect and compassion.

That when others around him aren't treating him or others like that, it is even more important that he does this, that he remains true to what he is.

Do you comprehend my analogy in the context of the discussion we are having ?  

 

All any of us can take to the grave with us is being true to who we are.

 

3.) I used the Nietzsche quote, beware that when fighting monsters, you yourself, do not become a monster

 

Is that what you want to mean to being true to yourself ?

Becoming that which you fight ?

 

 

 

1.) There is more passive support that you are suggesting for Hamas. Just because people arent fighting doesnt mean they arent supporting them. The sad truth is that there is too much support for Hamas amongst the civilian population which is why so many civilians are getting killed in the fighting.

 

2.) You are overestimating the power of Israels (or any nation really) military. It doesnt matter how strong a nation is, the digging out of an entrenched enemy in an urban environment is going to be hell. The Hamas tunnel system is connected everywhere, even to civilian housing. Everyone who has called out Israel on this conflict so far hasnt said how they could do a better job in the fighting. Because there isnt a way. Technology gives advantages on the battlefield, but it doesnt make the impossible possible.

 

The truth is, 25k dead of which as of 4 or so weeks ago included 9k+ hamas and is probably closer to the 11-12k mark if the ratio holds up is not disproportionate. I would have expected 100k dead by this point as that is what would be the case if most of the rest of the world had to try to dig Hamas out. All those people calling out Israel seem to be ignoring this fact, many probably have not even thought about how to fight a war in such a situation and just expect "the army" to be able to magically kill only the enemy and not their human shields. Its as stupid as when people expect the police not to shoot someone who is threatening their lives.

 

3.) I hate this quote, its in the top 10 for worst quotes ever. Only monsters can fight monsters. Although that isnt exactly right either as you dont need to be on the same level as the monsters you are fighting, but you do need to be monstrous enough to not be at a disadvantage in the conflict. For example, you need to be able to fight your enemy even if they take hostages, if necessary to ignore the hostages and let them die because if you dont, those hostages will get your soldiers killed. You also need to accept that you might accidently kill hostages yourself. Same goes with civilians, people are stupid and if they act in a threatening manner towards soldiers then they will get shot because not shooting them would endanger the soldiers if they had a bomb or a gun or something. Israel has ordered civilians to evacuate combat areas several times, but when Hamas members use refugees as human shields it is hard to avoid civilian casualties.

 

Unrelated to your post, the policy of not negotiating with terrorists is the one that has the best results overall. However that should not be set in stone as there are cases where if the price is cheap enough, negotiation would be acceptable. Like with the hostage exchange and ceasefire a few months back. The reason why negotiation for the rest of the hostages isnt happening is because Hamas has set the price for their release too high. For instance if the price to free a hostage is to release someone who is likely to kill people, then paying that price would be stupid. But the expectation that negotiation should be happening instead of war is foolish as that will just encourage more violence and hostage taking.

 

[Canuck Surfer]

9 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

It has everything to do with morals.

 

Making a decision to protect yourself, and your family if they have survived? Sometimes that is by fighting.  Other times its something different.

 

Many refugees are happy, grateful to be in a place that is safe. Where they are accepted. Which might not have been the case back home?

 

I believe your emotions are laying judgement that should not be there. 

 

 

If I was in Gaza?  And Hamas controlled what was taught in my schools, whether I could open a shop. Wanted my son at 14 to skip class to dig tunnels, smuggle arms. Would provoke a war by mutilating grandparents, raping Muthers and kids, teenagers at a dance festival?  I also agree Israel's response is disproportionate. 

 

My morals would say I am trapped by both sides.

 

Reality will also teach you this if you don't listen. 

[Ilunga]

5 hours ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

1.) There is more passive support that you are suggesting for Hamas. Just because people arent fighting doesnt mean they arent supporting them. The sad truth is that there is too much support for Hamas amongst the civilian population which is why so many civilians are getting killed in the fighting.

 

2.) You are overestimating the power of Israels (or any nation really) military. It doesnt matter how strong a nation is, the digging out of an entrenched enemy in an urban environment is going to be hell. The Hamas tunnel system is connected everywhere, even to civilian housing. Everyone who has called out Israel on this conflict so far hasnt said how they could do a better job in the fighting. Because there isnt a way. Technology gives advantages on the battlefield, but it doesnt make the impossible possible.

 

The truth is, 25k dead of which as of 4 or so weeks ago included 9k+ hamas and is probably closer to the 11-12k mark if the ratio holds up is not disproportionate. I would have expected 100k dead by this point as that is what would be the case if most of the rest of the world had to try to dig Hamas out. All those people calling out Israel seem to be ignoring this fact, many probably have not even thought about how to fight a war in such a situation and just expect "the army" to be able to magically kill only the enemy and not their human shields. Its as stupid as when people expect the police not to shoot someone who is threatening their lives.

 

3.) I hate this quote, its in the top 10 for worst quotes ever. Only monsters can fight monsters. Although that isnt exactly right either as you dont need to be on the same level as the monsters you are fighting, but you do need to be monstrous enough to not be at a disadvantage in the conflict. For example, you need to be able to fight your enemy even if they take hostages, if necessary to ignore the hostages and let them die because if you dont, those hostages will get your soldiers killed. You also need to accept that you might accidently kill hostages yourself. Same goes with civilians, people are stupid and if they act in a threatening manner towards soldiers then they will get shot because not shooting them would endanger the soldiers if they had a bomb or a gun or something. Israel has ordered civilians to evacuate combat areas several times, but when Hamas members use refugees as human shields it is hard to avoid civilian casualties.

 

Unrelated to your post, the policy of not negotiating with terrorists is the one that has the best results overall. However that should not be set in stone as there are cases where if the price is cheap enough, negotiation would be acceptable. Like with the hostage exchange and ceasefire a few months back. The reason why negotiation for the rest of the hostages isnt happening is because Hamas has set the price for their release too high. For instance if the price to free a hostage is to release someone who is likely to kill people, then paying that price would be stupid. But the expectation that negotiation should be happening instead of war is foolish as that will just encourage more violence and hostage taking.

 

 

1. Why do you think there is passive support for Hamas ?

The Palestinians are being persecuted, having their land stolen from them, of course there is going to be some kind of support for the people who stand up against the people who are persecuting them and taking their land.

And no I am not justifying Hamas using violence, simply explaining why some Palestinians will passively support them. 

 

2. Facts are Facts, Isreal is ranked the 17th most powerful military in the world.

According to their own figures they are fighting between 25- 30,000 Hamas fighters. 

Last figures I posted, from an Isreali source, they claimed they had killed 7- 8000 Hamas fighters.

That was just over a week ago from memory.

A quick google search just confirmed 9,000 fighters, so please stop with the "  propaganda " that the figure is 11-12,000.

US intelligence five days ago claimed somewhere between 20- 30 percent of Hamas fighters have been killed 

 

https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/hamas-toll-thus-far-falls-short-of-israels-war-aims-u-s-says-d1c43164

 

You are not " surprised " that 100,000 people have been killed, well over a ration of 10 civilians to 1 Hamas terrorists.

You are happy with that ?

That there have been over 22,000 strikes in an area a quarter the size of London ?

 

How did you feel about the IDF gunning down those  Israeli hostages that had escaped ?

How did you feel about them gunning down the Palestinian that was waving a white flag ?

 

3. You should read that quote more carefully, 

Beware that, when you are fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster. 

 

That quote is not stating only monsters can fight monsters, it is a warning that you don't become the evil/ monster that you are fighting.

You can fight monsters with out becoming a monster yourself.

 

More and more countries around the world are coming to the conclusion that Israels response is disproportionate in relation to the October the 7th attack.

 

This war, according to the experts, with the figures to back it up, is among the most destructive in history

 

https://www.afr.com/world/middle-east/israel-s-war-in-gaza-is-among-the-most-destructive-in-history-experts-say-20231222-p5et8k

 

" In just over two months, the offensive has wreaked more destruction, than the razing of Syria's Aleppo between 2012 and 2016, Ukraine's Mariupol or, proportionally the Allied bombing of Germany in WW2 " 

 

You can be OK with that, I am certainly not.

It has created a humanitarian crisis that is disproportionate to what the Isrealis experienced themselves. 

 

As for negotiating with the terrorists, I wonder how you would feel about this if any of the hostages were relatives of yours.

 

Edited January 26 by Ilunga

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Making a decision to protect yourself, and your family if they have survived? Sometimes that is by fighting.  Other times its something different.

 

Many refugees are happy, grateful to be in a place that is safe. Where they are accepted. Which might not have been the case back home?

 

I believe your emotions are laying judgement that should not be there. 

 

 

If I was in Gaza?  And Hamas controlled what was taught in my schools, whether I could open a shop. Wanted my son at 14 to skip class to dig tunnels, smuggle arms. Would provoke a war by mutilating grandparents, raping Muthers and kids, teenagers at a dance festival?  I also agree Israel's response is disproportionate. 

 

My morals would say I am trapped by both sides.

 

Reality will also teach you this if you don't listen. 

 

I don't know what this has to do with what a stated. 

 

My morals tell me that I have to stay true to myself no matter what others around me do.

That I must treat others with respect, dignity and compassion even when though they don't reciprocate.

 

I have learnt the hard way that hanging onto hate only hurts me.

It was eating me up the desire for revenge.

That I had to forgive the person that hurt me so that not only could I move on with my life, but stay true to who I am.

 

The second time around I haven't made the same mistake.

I don't carry any anger/ hatred in my heart to the person who has broken it.

[Canuck Surfer]

22 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

I am sorry to hear this.

 

Why would you state that, if you lose a war you are fucked,  as some form of justification, when your family have been victims of this ?

 

Just checking back.

 

What would I be justifying if my families country was going to lose a war badly. I was going to die. But escaped?

 

Your F'd if you stay aren't you...

 

13 hours ago, Ilunga said:

It has everything to do with morals.

Just because something has been a certain way forever doesn't make it right, or justifiable.

 

Well it's great to see our species evolving.

Using the same reasons to justify killing each other. 

 

So you sign up for Hamas?  

 

This is not a moral question Dave, its idealist versus realist. In wars militant groups form all the time. Then find alliances. Hamas has many? Many are nastier than your oppressor. In Ukraine in my grandfathers time? You could join Bandera's OUNB. Who at one point allied with Hitler. Had groups of his soldiers Marching Jews thousands at a time to ravines in Warsaw for execution. Not all of the OUN, many debate Bandera was even behind this?  But it happened. Regardless, you are scarred a traitor if you turn your back on a group fighting 'for your country.' These occurrences were commonplace. Ottomans killed Armenians in the millions. They and Persians killed Kurds.  Do you join OUNB? Or escape...

 

I equate the position many in Palestine are in right now as the same. They are under attack. Hamas themselves are killers, rapists, terrorists, hold their own people to extortions for the ability to survive. Part of the problem. Would happily join a purge of Jews. They need soldiers. Do you, if you are in Gaza join them... Or escape?

 

Those are your choices.

 

That's why you are F'd. Even escaping you could be killed in a boat that overturns. Called a traitor, not be able to go back? Suffer prejudice where you arrive. Stay & 85% of homes are obliterated. People die of disease, malnutrition. Your morals probably have less to do with your decisions than surviving each day.  

 

[Yoshiyoshi]

4 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

1. Why do you think there is passive support for Hamas ?

The Palestinians are being persecuted, having their land stolen from them, of course there is going to be some kind of support for the people who stand up against the people who are persecuting them and taking their land.

And no I am not justifying Hamas using violence, simply explaining why some Palestinians will passively support them. 

 

2. Facts are Facts, Isreal is ranked the 17th most powerful military in the world.

According to their own figures they are fighting between 25- 30,000 Hamas fighters. 

Last figures I posted, from an Isreali source, they claimed they had killed 7- 8000 Hamas fighters.

That was just over a week ago from memory.

A quick google search just confirmed 9,000 fighters, so please stop with the "  propaganda " that the figure is 11-12,000.

US intelligence five days ago claimed somewhere between 20- 30 percent of Hamas fighters have been killed 

 

https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/hamas-toll-thus-far-falls-short-of-israels-war-aims-u-s-says-d1c43164

 

You are not " surprised " that 100,000 people have been killed, well over a ration of 10 civilians to 1 Hamas terrorists.

You are happy with that ?

That there have been over 22,000 strikes in an area a quarter the size of London ?

 

How did you feel about the IDF gunning down those  Israeli hostages that had escaped ?

How did you feel about them gunning down the Palestinian that was waving a white flag ?

 

3. You should read that quote more carefully, 

Beware that, when you are fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster. 

 

That quote is not stating only monsters can fight monsters, it is a warning that you don't become the evil/ monster that you are fighting.

You can fight monsters with out becoming a monster yourself.

 

More and more countries around the world are coming to the conclusion that Israels response is disproportionate in relation to the October the 7th attack.

 

This war, according to the experts, with the figures to back it up, is among the most destructive in history

 

https://www.afr.com/world/middle-east/israel-s-war-in-gaza-is-among-the-most-destructive-in-history-experts-say-20231222-p5et8k

 

" In just over two months, the offensive has wreaked more destruction, than the razing of Syria's Aleppo between 2012 and 2016, Ukraine's Mariupol or, proportionally the Allied bombing of Germany in WW2 " 

 

You can be OK with that, I am certainly not.

It has created a humanitarian crisis that is disproportionate to what the Isrealis experienced themselves. 

 

As for negotiating with the terrorists, I wonder how you would feel about this if any of the hostages were relatives of yours.

 

1.) You say they are being persecuted, but is that really the case? My current opinion is that Israel is protecting themselves from Palestinians rather than persecuting them. I have heard that they have stolen land from Palestinians, which is wrong, but in the 350+ pages here i havent seen any one post data on which land was taken and when, just general statements. If you want me to amend my opinion on this im going to need a map showing which land has been taken and when. If you are going to claim the lands taken after the wars as stolen im not going to agree with that statement either.

 

2.) Israel claimed 9000+ in december, so thats what im basing my estimate on. Calling my estimate here propaganda is disingenuous. Last i heard there were 50k hamas not 20-30k but im not confident enough in the source to say yours is wrong here but im also not sure yours is right. Since it is paywalled i cant review it.

 

Quote

You are not " surprised " that 100,000 people have been killed, well over a ration of 10 civilians to 1 Hamas terrorists.

You are happy with that ?

That there have been over 22,000 strikes in an area a quarter the size of London ?

 

This sort of response is very frustrating, you are taking what i said and changing it to something else. You yourself have posted about other conflicts so I would expect you to know better about the amount of civilian casualties in most conflicts. Why would you ask if i was happy about it? First of all its not about being happy about it or not, its about trying to maintain realistic expectations(im not sure if this is the right word for this but i cant think of something better) about the conflict. As to the number of strikes in Gaza, i dont think the number is that important because it obviously hasnt been enough if the 20-30% estimate of Hamas casualties you posted is correct. Going to need some data on the amount of strikes in some of the other conflict zones before that statement can have any context. 22000 does sound like a lot but Id swear I read something about the war in Ukraine where there was like 50k artillery strikes at one of the hotspots but I could be wrong.

 

3.) Looking at the article you posted here. First thing i see here is it is dated Dec 22. Second thing is it estimates 7000 Hamas dead out of 30-40k which doesnt match the earlier statement. Just pointing that out, not any judgement or anything. Im not sure I can agree with its conclusion about being one of the most destructive wars in history. However I also cant for certain say its wrong, depending on what method is used to determine that. I havent bothered to do a bias check on the article so ill treat its reliable atm.

 

As to if my family were hostages, just the idea of that makes me sick. However I would not sacrifice others to try to save the people i care about. There is a big difference between fighting to protect people you care about, and sacrificing others to protect them. Just because you dont see the people being sacrificed or it doesnt happen until after the fact doesnt make it ok. But again, making concrete statements about these situations is not really productive, as i said if the demands arent unreasonable then there is room to negotiate even with terrorists.

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Ilunga]

2 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Just checking back.

 

What would I be justifying if my families country was going to lose a war badly. I was going to die. But escaped?

 

Your F'd if you stay aren't you...

 

 

So you sign up for Hamas?  

 

This is not a moral question Dave, its idealist versus realist. In wars militant groups form all the time. Then find alliances. Hamas has many? Many are nastier than your oppressor. In Ukraine in my grandfathers time? You could join Bandera's OUNB. Who at one point allied with Hitler. Had groups of his soldiers Marching Jews thousands at a time to ravines in Warsaw for execution. Not all of the OUN, many debate Bandera was even behind this?  But it happened. Regardless, you are scarred a traitor if you turn your back on a group fighting 'for your country.' These occurrences were commonplace. Ottomans killed Armenians in the millions. They and Persians killed Kurds.  Do you join OUNB? Or escape...

 

I equate the position many in Palestine are in right now as the same. They are under attack. Hamas themselves are killers, rapists, terrorists, hold their own people to extortions for the ability to survive. Part of the problem. Would happily join a purge of Jews. They need soldiers. Do you, if you are in Gaza join them... Or escape?

 

Those are your choices.

 

That's why you are F'd. Even escaping you could be killed in a boat that overturns. Called a traitor, not be able to go back? Suffer prejudice where you arrive. Stay & 85% of homes are obliterated. People die of disease, malnutrition. Your morals probably have less to do with your decisions than surviving each day.  

 

 

I know about the horrors you are talking about.

 

All I can say is how I would act, what my conscience dictates.

 

If I was an Isreali or a Palestinian I would be a member of one of those organisations that I have posted articles and videos about.

The groups that work together for a peaceful resolution to this never ending conflict.

[RomanPer]

3 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Just checking back.

 

What would I be justifying if my families country was going to lose a war badly. I was going to die. But escaped?

 

Your F'd if you stay aren't you...

 

 

So you sign up for Hamas?  

 

This is not a moral question Dave, its idealist versus realist. In wars militant groups form all the time. Then find alliances. Hamas has many? Many are nastier than your oppressor. In Ukraine in my grandfathers time? You could join Bandera's OUNB. Who at one point allied with Hitler. Had groups of his soldiers Marching Jews thousands at a time to ravines in Warsaw for execution. Not all of the OUN, many debate Bandera was even behind this?  But it happened. Regardless, you are scarred a traitor if you turn your back on a group fighting 'for your country.' These occurrences were commonplace. Ottomans killed Armenians in the millions. They and Persians killed Kurds.  Do you join OUNB? Or escape...

 

I equate the position many in Palestine are in right now as the same. They are under attack. Hamas themselves are killers, rapists, terrorists, hold their own people to extortions for the ability to survive. Part of the problem. Would happily join a purge of Jews. They need soldiers. Do you, if you are in Gaza join them... Or escape?

 

Those are your choices.

 

That's why you are F'd. Even escaping you could be killed in a boat that overturns. Called a traitor, not be able to go back? Suffer prejudice where you arrive. Stay & 85% of homes are obliterated. People die of disease, malnutrition. Your morals probably have less to do with your decisions than surviving each day.  

 

 

Are you awaiting the dual citizenship law in Ukraine as much as I am, brother?

Edited January 26 by RomanPer

[Ilunga]

45 minutes ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

1.) You say they are being persecuted, but is that really the case? My current opinion is that Israel is protecting themselves from Palestinians rather than persecuting them. I have heard that they have stolen land from Palestinians, which is wrong, but in the 350+ pages here i havent seen any one post data on which land was taken and when, just general statements. If you want me to amend my opinion on this im going to need a map showing which land has been taken and when. If you are going to claim the lands taken after the wars as stolen im not going to agree with that statement either.

 

2.) Israel claimed 9000+ in december, so thats what im basing my estimate on. Calling my estimate here propaganda is disingenuous. Last i heard there were 50k hamas not 20-30k but im not confident enough in the source to say yours is wrong here but im also not sure yours is right. Since it is paywalled i cant review it.

 

 

This sort of response is very frustrating, you are taking what i said and changing it to something else. You yourself have posted about other conflicts so I would expect you to know better about the amount of civilian casualties in most conflicts. Why would you ask if i was happy about it? First of all its not about being happy about it or not, its about trying to maintain realistic expectations(im not sure if this is the right word for this but i cant think of something better) about the conflict. As to the number of strikes in Gaza, i dont think the number is that important because it obviously hasnt been enough if the 20-30% estimate of Hamas casualties you posted is correct. Going to need some data on the amount of strikes in some of the other conflict zones before that statement can have any context. 22000 does sound like a lot but Id swear I read something about the war in Ukraine where there was like 50k artillery strikes at one of the hotspots but I could be wrong.

 

3.) Looking at the article you posted here. First thing i see here is it is dated Dec 22. Second thing is it estimates 7000 Hamas dead out of 30-40k which doesnt match the earlier statement. Just pointing that out, not any judgement or anything. Im not sure I can agree with its conclusion about being one of the most destructive wars in history. However I also cant for certain say its wrong, depending on what method is used to determine that. I havent bothered to do a bias check on the article so ill treat its reliable atm.

 

As to if my family were hostages, just the idea of that makes me sick. However I would not sacrifice others to try to save the people i care about. There is a big difference between fighting to protect people you care about, and sacrificing others to protect them. Just because you dont see the people being sacrificed or it doesnt happen until after the fact doesnt make it ok. But again, making concrete statements about these situations is not really productive, as i said if the demands arent unreasonable then there is room to negotiate even with terrorists.

 

 

The Palestinians not being persecuted

 

Would you believe an ex head of the Mossad Tamir Pardo 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/06/israel-imposing-apartheid-on-palestinians-says-former-mossad-chief

 

Or how about a bunch of ex Isreali politicians   

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/05/amnesty-israel-apartheid-israeli-politicians-agree

 

Or how about some leading Isreali scholars prominent Isreali holocaust scholars 

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/8/27/accusing-israel-of-apartheid-is-not-anti-semitic-holocaust-historian

 

 

 

Or how about an Isreali human rights organisation 

http://www.btselem.org/publications/202210_not_a_vibrant_democracy_this_is_apartheid

 

I haven't even bothered to post sources outside of Israel.

 

Now for the illegal settlements

 

" As has been the position of successive Canadian governments Canada does not recognise permanent Isreali control over territories occupied in 1967 and strongly opposes illegal settlement outposts in the west bank "

 

Most countries including the US hold this position. 

 

As for your " disingenuous" claim 

Five days ago 

 

https://nypost.com/2024/01/21/news/israel-has-only-killed-20-30-of-hamas-terrorists-us-says/

 

" The US estimates that Hamas has between 25,000 to 30,000 members a more conservative estimate than Israels that which pegs the terrorists fighting force at 30,000 or more. "

 

No where can I find a figure anywhere near your claim of 50,000. 

 

I am sorry you are frustrated, personally I am equally heartbroken by the events of October 7th and the events in Gaza since.

 

How is it sacrificing others to work out a deal to save the hostages lived ? 

As one of the most experienced Israeli Hamas negotiators  Gershon Baskin has noted in advocating for a hostage deal 

" You can finish the war later "

 

Trust what you want.

Personally I go to media bias and check their opinion on the news agency I am quoting.

They are a respected fact checking organisation. 

 

Finally I can tell you what isn't productive, not just this particular conflict, but all the conflicts that our stupid species finds stupid reasons to kill and injure our fellow human being in.

Women and children are the ones who pay the ultimate price.