Hamas attacking Israel

[Ilunga]

22 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

Are you awaiting the dual citizenship law in Ukraine as much as I am, brother?

 

We here in Australia allow dual citizenship, if the laws of the other countries allow it.

At least we are one step towards a world society.

 

And speaking of dual citizenship, I very rarely saw my father angry however one of the few times was when he found out this.

 

When I first got my Aussie passport and started ski bumming around the world, my father who was English/British suggested I get a British passport as well, as an Australian this was allowed.

All the " children" of British subjects are entitled to a British passport.

When I applied and they found out I was adopted, they refused to give me a British passport.

Apparently they didn't consider the only man, the best man I have ever known, who I had called father since a few months old, was my father.

 

[Canuck Surfer]

2 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

Are you awaiting the dual citizenship law in Ukraine as much as I am, brother?

 

You know my Baba had a garden.  Bless my Mum & my wife. Neither are Ukrainian, but learned & loved to make pedaheh. Lemon poppyseed cake...

 

I spent half the day digging today.  I suppose its generations old. 

 

Yes.

[Yoshiyoshi]

2 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

 

The Palestinians not being persecuted

 

Would you believe an ex head of the Mossad Tamir Pardo 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/06/israel-imposing-apartheid-on-palestinians-says-former-mossad-chief

 

Or how about a bunch of ex Isreali politicians   

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/05/amnesty-israel-apartheid-israeli-politicians-agree

 

Or how about some leading Isreali scholars prominent Isreali holocaust scholars 

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/8/27/accusing-israel-of-apartheid-is-not-anti-semitic-holocaust-historian

 

 

 

Or how about an Isreali human rights organisation 

http://www.btselem.org/publications/202210_not_a_vibrant_democracy_this_is_apartheid

 

I haven't even bothered to post sources outside of Israel.

 

Now for the illegal settlements

 

" As has been the position of successive Canadian governments Canada does not recognise permanent Isreali control over territories occupied in 1967 and strongly opposes illegal settlement outposts in the west bank "

 

Most countries including the US hold this position. 

 

As for your " disingenuous" claim 

Five days ago 

 

https://nypost.com/2024/01/21/news/israel-has-only-killed-20-30-of-hamas-terrorists-us-says/

 

" The US estimates that Hamas has between 25,000 to 30,000 members a more conservative estimate than Israels that which pegs the terrorists fighting force at 30,000 or more. "

 

No where can I find a figure anywhere near your claim of 50,000. 

 

I am sorry you are frustrated, personally I am equally heartbroken by the events of October 7th and the events in Gaza since.

 

How is it sacrificing others to work out a deal to save the hostages lived ? 

As one of the most experienced Israeli Hamas negotiators  Gershon Baskin has noted in advocating for a hostage deal 

" You can finish the war later "

 

Trust what you want.

Personally I go to media bias and check their opinion on the news agency I am quoting.

They are a respected fact checking organisation. 

 

Finally I can tell you what isn't productive, not just this particular conflict, but all the conflicts that our stupid species finds stupid reasons to kill and injure our fellow human being in.

Women and children are the ones who pay the ultimate price.

 

What was disingenuous was how you tried to dismiss what i said by calling it propaganda rather than the specifics of what i said. If i post something and i dont have a source for it i say so, which i did in the same paragraph. The 50k number was posted somewhere back in like Nov. and until today no one has questioned that estimate(I actually believe it was also a claim from Hamas). The article you posted in the previous post said 30-40k and 7000 Hamas dead, this one says 25K-30K and 9000 Hamas dead. Even if you accept that the 7000 number was correct back when the first one was posted (The source I saw around that time said 9000 claimed by the IDF) that is still a big difference between the estimates of Hamas members total. 7000 out of 40k is a lot less than 9000 out of 25k. The point i guess im trying to make is, if you mix and match numbers from different sources you can make the estimates tell a significantly different story (ie. 18% of hamas dead vs 36% at the 2 extremes of those numbers).

 

Of interest in that article you posted was the 10.5k-11.7k wounded Hamas members, this is the first time ive seen an estimate of wounded for Hamas.

 

Ill look at those articles about persecution later. I actually had to go look up the definition of persecution to make sure we were talking about the same thing(didnt want another Genocide definition debacle). I didnt know that my government didnt recognize Israels 1967 gains, not sure if i agree with it or not, my government is pretty stupid regardless who is in power. Couldnt even evacuate people from Afghanistan due to a bunch of bureaucratic BS.

Edited January 26 by Yoshiyoshi

[Super19]

Not a good look for the $1.5 trillion-dollar company, NVIDIA.

 

"Chipmaker NVIDIA is matching employee donations to charities that support illegal West Bank settlements, settler militias, and the IDF. This became a major issue at the trillion-dollar company involving dozens of employees and senior management, Motherboard has learned, after matching funds destined for charities supporting Palestinians were returned to workers who donated.  "

https://www.vice.com/en/article/jg545g/nvidia-israel-palestine-charity-giving-causes-rift

 

 

Edited January 26 by Super19

[Ilunga]

10 minutes ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

What was disingenuous was how you tried to dismiss what i said by calling it propaganda rather than the specifics of what i said. If i post something and i dont have a source for it i say so, which i did in the same paragraph. The 50k number was posted somewhere back in like Nov. and until today no one has questioned that estimate(I actually believe it was also a claim from Hamas). The article you posted in the previous post said 30-40k and 7000 Hamas dead, this one says 25K-30K and 9000 Hamas dead. Even if you accept that the 7000 number was correct back when the first one was posted (The source I saw around that time said 9000 claimed by the IDF) that is still a big difference between the estimates of Hamas members total. 7000 out of 40k is a lot less than 9000 out of 25k. The point i guess im trying to make is, if you mix and match numbers from different sources you can make the estimates tell a significantly different story (ie. 18% of hamas dead vs 36% at the 2 extremes of those numbers).

 

Of interest in that article you posted was the 10.5k-11.7k wounded Hamas members, this is the first time ive seen an estimate of wounded for Hamas.

 

Ill look at those articles about persecution later. I actually had to go look up the definition of persecution to make sure we were talking about the same thing(didnt want another Genocide definition debacle). I didnt know that my government didnt recognize Israels 1967 gains, not sure if i agree with it or not, my government is pretty stupid regardless who is in power. Couldnt even evacuate people from Afghanistan due to a bunch of bureaucratic BS.

 

I am losing track of all the articles you are stating I am posting.

 

Of the articles I have posted, from memory, the number of fighters that have been killed ,between 7-9000 and the number of fighters always between 25 - 30,000. 

Please correct me by quoting the article if I am wrong.  

 

Those articles are quoting Prominent Isrealis stating that Israel practices arpartheid on the Palestinians.

Don't you believe that arpartheid is a form of persecution.

 

In a previous post yesterday, I quoted the highest Isreali court  stated Isreal discriminates against the Palestinian people. 

 

Discrimination, persecution, arpartheid, choose your own word. 

 

Me I only have to see what is happening to the Palestinians to come to this conclusion.

 

As for, if you agree with your government, in regards to illegal Israeli settlements that's a fair assertion, when one person/ organisation/ government tells me something, I will take it on board and research further, in this case many governments hold the same position as the Canadian.

My government included.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-08-08/government-hardens-against-israel-palestine-settlements/102702558

 

What's important to remember is that all these governments and many people realise is that these settlements are an impediment to peace.

 

 Here is the legal arguments to back up this claim.

 

https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/study-legality-israeli-occupation-occupied-palestinian-territory-including-east-jerusalem

 

 

Can I get you to admit just a couple of simple things ?

That Palestinians have the right to self determination, to form a viable state and live in a free and just society. 

 

I have stated numerous times that Israel has the right to these things to.

 

[Super19]

Hamas&co have pockets so deep, they control WHO, ivy-league schools, Canadian universities, countless humanitarian and human rights organizations, South Africa and the Global South!!! 

 

[Super19]

1 hour ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

What was disingenuous was how you tried to dismiss what i said by calling it propaganda rather than the specifics of what i said. If i post something and i dont have a source for it i say so, which i did in the same paragraph. The 50k number was posted somewhere back in like Nov. and until today no one has questioned that estimate(I actually believe it was also a claim from Hamas). The article you posted in the previous post said 30-40k and 7000 Hamas dead, this one says 25K-30K and 9000 Hamas dead. Even if you accept that the 7000 number was correct back when the first one was posted (The source I saw around that time said 9000 claimed by the IDF) that is still a big difference between the estimates of Hamas members total. 7000 out of 40k is a lot less than 9000 out of 25k. The point i guess im trying to make is, if you mix and match numbers from different sources you can make the estimates tell a significantly different story (ie. 18% of hamas dead vs 36% at the 2 extremes of those numbers).

 

Of interest in that article you posted was the 10.5k-11.7k wounded Hamas members, this is the first time ive seen an estimate of wounded for Hamas.

 

Ill look at those articles about persecution later. I actually had to go look up the definition of persecution to make sure we were talking about the same thing(didnt want another Genocide definition debacle). I didnt know that my government didnt recognize Israels 1967 gains, not sure if i agree with it or not, my government is pretty stupid regardless who is in power. Couldnt even evacuate people from Afghanistan due to a bunch of bureaucratic BS.

9k Hamas dead out of the 25k+ that include 70% women&children? 

 

The math ain't mathing. Unless there were a few thousand teens and women deemed Hamas by the IDF? Or maybe the IDF killed Hamas, and the Hamas somehow became zombies and the IDF killed the Hamas zombies - you know what, maybe that's why IDF have been desecrating all those cemeteries in Gaza!

 

You're also assuming every single man killed is Hamas.

[Super19]

The ICJ ruling was a resounding loss for Israel. South Africa had a case, and a winning one at that. Shame on the US and Kirby calling it meritless. It did however fall short of calling for a ceasefire.

 

The genocidal intent is there folks. Not that anyone needed an ICJ ruling to tell you this. While there was no order for a complete cessation of military activity, Israel is on thin ice, must report back in 1 months time proving that they are abiding by these very strict provisions, and pretty much all of Israel's top officials are directly in the firing line of needing to be punished for their genocidal intent.

 

I think Israel will find it impossible to abide by these rules. Better off to ceasefire and diplomacy NOW. Israel is unable to eliminate Hamas without being genocidal... which is ironic because that is what Israel accuses Hamas as being. 

Here’s a quick recap of the ICJ ruling

 

• The court says it has jurisdiction to rule in the case.
• The court orders Israel to take measures to prevent acts of genocide in the Gaza Strip.
• The court says Israel must prevent and punish incitement to genocide in the Strip.
• The court says Israel must allow humanitarian aid into the Strip.
• The court obliges Israel to take more measures to protect Palestinians but does not order it to end military operations in the Strip.

Edited January 26 by Super19

[Super19]

This incessant spin and hypocrisy is against truth and justice and against humanity and morality. Shameful.

 

The no ceasefire was very disappointing, but the provisions at the ICJ were helpful, and a step in the right direction and puts pressure on the US and Germany and etc to check themselves and check Israel. 

 

 

Edited January 26 by Super19

[Odd.]

 

Israel try your hardest not to commit war crimes challenge (Impossible)

 

 

[Odd.]

On 1/25/2024 at 12:22 AM, Super19 said:

Many of the initial narratives surrounding Oct 7 are turning out to be false:

Also this, @RomanPer @Optimist Prime @Bob Long the Health Ministry numbers, the same numbers which had been proven to be reliable in all previous wars, are once again, reliable according to Israel - but heres the kicker, these numbers from the ministry could very well be an undercount And for 3 months we were told to not trust these numbers, yet Israel had not been counting this entire time.

 

I find it so funny how hard they try to deny and spin every single fact that comes there way. They won’t respond to your post, trust me lol

[Bob Long]

7 minutes ago, Odd. said:

I find it so funny how hard they try to deny and spin every single fact that comes there way. They won’t respond to your post, trust me lol

 

Facts?

[Odd.]

3 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Facts?

Yes

[Bob Long]

8 minutes ago, Odd. said:

Yes

 

Which facts do you think we're not addressing?

[Odd.]

1 minute ago, Bob Long said:

 

Which facts do you think we're not addressing?

Death toll

 

Which one of you said it was likely false because Gaza health ministry was under “Hamas influence” therefore inadmissible as being accurate

Edited January 26 by Odd.

[Bob Long]

Just now, Odd. said:

Death toll

 

Because I don't instantly believe every tweet someone posts? 

 

[Bob Long]

7 minutes ago, Odd. said:

Death toll

 

Which one of you said it was likely false because Gaza health ministry was under “Hamas influence” therefore inadmissible as being accurate

 

Dismissing a terrorist group as the single source of information seems like a sensible approach to me. 

 

No one denied anything other than Hamas bs.

[Odd.]

On 11/20/2023 at 10:31 PM, RomanPer said:

 

That whole article is based on “numbers provided by Gaza Health Ministry” aka Hamas.

 

On 11/13/2023 at 5:43 PM, Optimist Prime said:

The Gazan death toll numbers are recorded UNRWA personnel who send it to Hamas who send it to the West Bank who disseminate it to the world. 

 

Just before my company arrives I had time to look this up, as I know without a source, Wikipedia in this case, I would be shouted down: 

UNRWA has 30,000 people on its payrolls, the overwhelming majority are locals, ergo Palestinians. IN fact they are one of the largest employers in Gaza if not the largest employer. 

 

 

 

I could go on but i would be boring those who might be inclined to read it, and wasting my time for those who might be inclined to dismiss it. 

I am not sure why anyone would believe the Health Ministry of Hamas, nor the UNRWA reported numbers to them, which they then pass on to the West Bank. 

Believing these numbers is saying "Those terrorists are at heart very honest and don't have an agenda to misinform me and gain my sympathies" when we all know the only reason the bee stung the elephant on Oct 7th was to elicit a response they could then use to manipulate the comfortable masses around the globe into believing Israel is evil. 

 

And with that, dinner time. 

 

On 11/10/2023 at 6:33 PM, RomanPer said:

 

No thank you, I trust IDF intelligence more than unnamed source of the Wall Street Journal.

 

On 11/10/2023 at 6:40 PM, RomanPer said:

 

Why? Let me see. Maybe because they are run by Hamas and their released number is part of Hamas anti-Israel propaganda campaign?

Their numbers were always challenged by variety of sources and not just by Israel.

 

I asked this very specific question a while ago and everyone ignored it - all these alleged 20,000 dead must be buried somewhere. 20,000 dead is a huge cemetery. If such cemetery existed, I'm sure Hamas would use it in their propaganda. It's easy to fabricate the "20,000 dead" number. It's not so easy to create a fake cemetery with 20,000 graves, especially when you are no longer have freedom of doing what you want within Gaza.

 

On 11/10/2023 at 6:42 PM, RomanPer said:

 

Bib will answer for a lot of things to Israeli court first. If indeed 20,000 died - a lot will depend how many of these thousands are Hamas terrorists. If it's vast majority then it wouldn't be added as a charge to the list of Bibi's crimes. But again - where are the 20,000 graves?

lol, some very familiar rhetoric though

 

lets believe IDF evidence though despite them also fabricating and literally being caught faking videos

Edited January 26 by Odd.

[RomanPer]

2 hours ago, Super19 said:

The ICJ ruling was a resounding loss for Israel. South Africa had a case, and a winning one at that. Shame on the US and Kirby calling it meritless. It did however fall short of calling for a ceasefire.

 

The genocidal intent is there folks. Not that anyone needed an ICJ ruling to tell you this. While there was no order for a complete cessation of military activity, Israel is on thin ice, must report back in 1 months time proving that they are abiding by these very strict provisions, and pretty much all of Israel's top officials are directly in the firing line of needing to be punished for their genocidal intent.

 

I think Israel will find it impossible to abide by these rules. Better off to ceasefire and diplomacy NOW. Israel is unable to eliminate Hamas without being genocidal... which is ironic because that is what Israel accuses Hamas as being. 

Here’s a quick recap of the ICJ ruling

 

• The court says it has jurisdiction to rule in the case.
• The court orders Israel to take measures to prevent acts of genocide in the Gaza Strip.
• The court says Israel must prevent and punish incitement to genocide in the Strip.
• The court says Israel must allow humanitarian aid into the Strip.
• The court obliges Israel to take more measures to protect Palestinians but does not order it to end military operations in the Strip.

 

So, as expected, much ado about nothing. Just a waste of everyone's time. Yet, some people will celebrate it as "victory over Israel". Good luck with that.

[Bob Long]

1 hour ago, Odd. said:

 

 

Israel try your hardest not to commit war crimes challenge (Impossible)

 

 

 

I'm curious how much responsibility you assign to Iranian leadership for this conflict.

[Optimist Prime]

2 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

So, as expected, much ado about nothing. Just a waste of everyone's time. Yet, some people will celebrate it as "victory over Israel". Good luck with that.

I am still baffled why folks arent calling for Hamas to surrender in order to save the lives and what is left of the property of the citizens of Gaza? Surely bombs stop falling the moment Hamas surrenders. 

[Optimist Prime]

I hate drawing everything comparatively back to NAZI GERMANY but the moment the German Military surrendered, the lives of Germans started to improve up to and including this day when they are generally partners now in running Europe and global affairs. 

the Terror group Hamas both the leadership and the armed forces thereof need to surrender if they have any love whatsoever for the people of Gaza. Hamas started this on Oct 7th and only Hamas can end this, before Hamas is ended, and save lives and limbs of those they claim to represent. 

We have all simply been reposting our positions on this for four months now, which is why I stopped popping in. It is kind of retarded to keep doing the same thing over and over with no results. Nothing we say here will change a thing there. Shrug. 

 

Happy New Year everyone, forgot to say that three or four weeks ago. Hopefully 2024 is more peaceful and more prosperous for everyone.

 

also: 

5 hours ago - 

The US State Department halts funding for UNRWA pending an investigation into its involvement in the October 7th massacre

Quote

The United States is extremely troubled by the allegations that twelve UNRWA employees may have been involved in the October 7 Hamas terrorist attack on Israel.  The Department of State has temporarily paused additional funding for UNRWA while we review these allegations and the steps the United Nations is taking to address them.

Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken spoke with United Nations Secretary General Antonio Guterres on January 25 to emphasize the necessity of a thorough and swift investigation of this matter.  We welcome the decision to conduct such an investigation and Secretary General Guterres’ pledge to take decisive action to respond, should the allegations prove accurate.  We also welcome the UN’s announcement of a “comprehensive and independent” review of UNRWA.  There must be complete accountability for anyone who participated in the heinous attacks of October 7

https://www.state.gov/statement-on-unrwa-allegations/#:~:text=The United States is extremely,Hamas terrorist attack on Israel.

[Super19]

This started on Oct 7? This will all end with Hamas? Yeah right.

 

 

[Optimist Prime]

...and around we go... see you all in canucks talk.

[Yoshiyoshi]

11 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

I am losing track of all the articles you are stating I am posting.

 

Of the articles I have posted, from memory, the number of fighters that have been killed ,between 7-9000 and the number of fighters always between 25 - 30,000. 

Please correct me by quoting the article if I am wrong.  

 

Those articles are quoting Prominent Isrealis stating that Israel practices arpartheid on the Palestinians.

Don't you believe that arpartheid is a form of persecution.

 

In a previous post yesterday, I quoted the highest Isreali court  stated Isreal discriminates against the Palestinian people. 

 

Discrimination, persecution, arpartheid, choose your own word. 

 

Me I only have to see what is happening to the Palestinians to come to this conclusion.

 

As for, if you agree with your government, in regards to illegal Israeli settlements that's a fair assertion, when one person/ organisation/ government tells me something, I will take it on board and research further, in this case many governments hold the same position as the Canadian.

My government included.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-08-08/government-hardens-against-israel-palestine-settlements/102702558

 

What's important to remember is that all these governments and many people realise is that these settlements are an impediment to peace.

 

 Here is the legal arguments to back up this claim.

 

https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/study-legality-israeli-occupation-occupied-palestinian-territory-including-east-jerusalem

 

 

Can I get you to admit just a couple of simple things ?

That Palestinians have the right to self determination, to form a viable state and live in a free and just society. 

 

I have stated numerous times that Israel has the right to these things to.

 

I found the link, it was harder to find the right one than i thought it would be considering i quoted the original post, should have been easy to find that way

https://www.afr.com/world/middle-east/israel-s-war-in-gaza-is-among-the-most-destructive-in-history-experts-say-20231222-p5et8k

 

As to the bolded part, i can agree to the right of self determination and live in a free and just society. The forming of a state(or states) however is not something I can consider a right. Im not necessarily opposed to a Palestinian state(or states if Gaza and West bank became separate independent states rather than uniting) coming into existence. Honestly though, reunification of Israel with the Palestinian territories would be the best solution but requires a renunciation of the violence by Palestinians and a return of stolen lands by Israel (which doesnt sound like its out of the realm of possibility from what was posted by i think RomanPer a few weeks back?). I will state quite clearly here though that I am opposed to all religious states regardless of which religion so if the founding principle of a Palestinian state is the common religion I wont be in favor of it as religious laws take away the rights of individuals. I consider any state that discriminates against women to not deserve to exist.

 

Ive only had time to look at 1 of the 4 links you posted about persecution so far. However it was about the west bank not Gaza. But if accurate then i can see the claim about apartheid in the west bank having some grounds. I dont think it applies to Gaza though as from what I understand Isreal does not enforce the law in Gaza? Am I wrong on this? If so let me know. Ill try to check out those other 3 articles later today.

 

Just finished the second one, it was also about the west bank but did not go into any details on what specifically Isreal was doing. I did see one quote in there that i cant disagree with “As long as in this territory west of the Jordan river there is only one political entity called Israel it is going to be either non-Jewish or non-democratic”. While Israel needs to be a safe place for Jewish people, it does not need to only be jewish.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/05/amnesty-israel-apartheid-israeli-politicians-agree

 

3rd one. This one was also light on details, the only line with anything specific is “Palestinian people lack almost all basic rights, including the right to vote and protest,” the petition reads, “Settler vigilantes burn, loot, and kill with impunity.” This is still really vague though but im assuming it is also about the west bank. I wish they would go into specifics on these claims rather than just general statements. Obviously settlers attacking people is a crime and should be dealt with. But without more details I cant really evaluate how prevalent it is or compare it to violence against jewish people to see if this qualifies as persecution or if it is just conflict between 2 sides. I believe persecution is generally a 1 sided thing and this article doesnt have enough data for me to accept that definition. Is it even possible for 2 sides to persecute each other? Im gonna have to go back and look at the definition of persecute again to see if maybe there are other ways to define it that im not aware of.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/8/27/accusing-israel-of-apartheid-is-not-anti-semitic-holocaust-historian

 

This 4th article is more useful. It separates the west bank from gaza and discusses specifics on them. I dont agree with its opinion on Gaza still being ruled by Israel. Looking at the west bank and East Jerusalem parts of the article do support the apartheid claim though. Gaza however is self ruled if not fully independent. Im still not sure this counts as persecution though. I think what makes it persecution is intent. The googled definitions i got are 1.) hostility and ill-treatment, especially on the basis of ethnicity, religion, or sexual orientation or political beliefs.

2.) persistent annoyance or harassment.

From what i understand, the intent is to protect jewish people from persecution. Is it persecution to take steps to protect yourself and your people? Is there evidence that Israel is doing its actions to meet one of the definitions above? I can see a case for the second condition as a result of all the attacks against Israel. I dont know where the line is between self defense and persecution here. There is too much opinion and not enough facts.

https://www.btselem.org/publications/202210_not_a_vibrant_democracy_this_is_apartheid

 

It still seems like for Gaza at least, the peace process needs to be started by the Palestinians, or perhaps i should call them the people of Gaza. Lumping Gaza in with other Palestinian areas just confuses the issues and makes it harder to determine a course of action to bring about peace. In Gaza the support of the use of violence against Israel needs to stop, so long as it remains, Israel will have to continue the actions that some are considering persecution. Any other course of action will just give Hamas and their supporters the chance to hurt more people. In the West bank Israel can take a more active role in the peace process.

Edited January 26 by Yoshiyoshi
adding stuff