Hamas attacking Israel

[Super19]

1 hour ago, RomanPer said:

 

What a bunch of garbage. You take the prize of finding the most ridiculous examples of idiots online and posting them here.

I haven't posted that much from Nentanyahu...

[Bob Long]

1 hour ago, Odd. said:

Fake news unless it’s an Israeli or a Jewish person who was raped 

 

btw your anti semitic for bringing that up

 

I noticed that you skipped speaking about Iran. 

[Canuck Surfer]

1 hour ago, Super19 said:

 

 

Members of UNRWA were not just complicit, at least 12 identified as having taken part in Oct 7

 

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

The UNRWA structure itself was idealistic.  

 

Over 30,000 local Palestinians hired to help distribute, aid, services & care.  Those also receiving jobs. Good in theory.

 

Which led to massive fraud, corruption.  Many were not just fundamentalist, but part of the belief system in Islamic Jihad.  So the funds and programs were inherently believed well used to advance the cause of the the militant cause.  When it was supposed to be providing educational system, improving medical facilities, social justice, water treatment & access, food relief. 

 

For over 10 years nobody managed what services were provided & how money was spent.  

 

That 12 locals, so far, were among those involved directly in attacks not surprising at all. Probably tip of the iceberg. 30,000 to 40,000 receiving & doling programs without controls. Many will have been from the view of enforcing Sharia Law, not empowering women or victims of assault for example. Have their controllers within Hamas's hierarchy. Money of this scale has to be spent within mandates of protecting human rights. Not handed to those who believe the militant suppression of rights is the fundamental right / gift where the masses & women serve the male leaders of such organizations.

 

The bigger problem, in this context, is how the UN got duped, the aid never reached its intended audience. We will probably see some UN members in the Hague, New York suddenly retire to Qatar...

[Canuck Surfer]

16 hours ago, Super19 said:

What is the appropriate response for this? Can Palestine have their prisoners/hostages freed and enact their right to self defense and eliminating terrorists? 

And before you dismiss this as propaganda, think carefully about how and why you're dismissing it as propaganda and if you find it sketchy we can talk about testimonies and claims made from Oct 7.

Also, if you think this testimony is outside the realm of plausible possibility, think again after watching this:

 

 

Why do so many Palestenian children get detained by Israel? Because they throw rocks or worse? Why are they throwing rocks or worse? Because they are antisemetic little terrorists or are they acting in self defense from oppression and occupation - oppression and occupation which is well documented and recognized. Did you know Israel has the greenlight to detain Palestenians without a trial if they think they are terrorists/a threat? My goodness that sounds like an unacceptable thing to do but it happens. So what happens when a Palestenian is taken away from their family, detained and held prisoner without a trial, and then raped in prison?

Oops, forgot my reply; update in a few minutes with apologies.

 

What is the appropriate response?

 

There are a lot of issues.  

 

* Lets start with the right to safety for those arrested. And note the age of one victim 13.  Rape & violence happen in jails all the time. I don't believe it mentioned it was the guards, but it should not be nobody heard nothing, seen nothing either. A right to security in jail. That there is a political bend complicates it. Israel should have been, in the LOWEST common denominator, been making use of international monitoring of their detainee's. In Canada, 13 is around the age where criminal liability starts. The crimes have to be significant for this to be the case.  They probably were but it begs special care if this was an age impacted. 

 

* The act of stifling the questions, its something Israel gets accused of.  Not just here, but in examples where reporters are shot. The IDF and Israeli society need to be both transparent; but we need to see Israeli people in jail for their role in systems that don't hold violence accountable. That this was happening BEFORE Oct 7 extremely troubling. I have ALWAYS asked Israel to use rubber bullets, not real ones; redact their use of live weaponry suppressing violent protest.

 

* The nature of offenders is a conflict of its own.  How do you teach peace, humility? Consider me prejudice, but there is the issue of kids being brought up from 5 & 6 with life's goals including being a Martyr included in their education system. Repression of others to comply with, the Hamas version, of Sharia law also teaches kids to exert control as if its a right. Israeli kids also grow up being taught victimization. Nobody should be taught persecution without justice. 

 

* Thus 13 years olds throwing rocks is an issue.  It combines itself with a concept that one can exert violence as a tenant right. This is something Palestinians should be policing, teaching their kids NOT to do at age 5 & 7. Policing their own kids at 13, is something Palestinians have to do if someday they want peace.  Perhaps with international, or, cough, UN help. Have their own youth jails. When Palestinians AND Israeli factions are holding their own accountable; opportunity for justice and peace will improve dramatically.  

 

* Somewhere around 14? Help me anyone. Having kids with a goal of joining the military. Training kids the physical tools of being in the military, also international & local law. No problem. I do believe Gaza has a inherent right to develop a military defense force. Kids have to be taught holding people accountable for violence will reduce violence against all. Taught being a border guard keeping Israeli's out, if they are (they are) offending is a noble goal, but one with responsibilities. Israel, obviously the same & the same UN monitoring applies here if it is to help, more than what they are doing. Israel needs to be held accountable for their police actions in West Bank, a shared UN or UN/Arabic task force. We need to grow a generation of Palestinian & Israeli kids who believe in actual justice, preservation of human rights.

 

* I have little doubt; systemic feudal & sexual violence, dominant positions of authority is represented in offending kids, young adults & adults alike!

 

* This last 2 point aboves, not represented in the UNRWA programs, which it has to be.  

 

 

 

 

** Remember @Super19 , the ratio of hostage release has been 3 and 10 to 1, currently Hamas wants 100 to 1 for Israeli victims that were truly innocent.  I don't know the ratio of truly innocent Palestinian detainee's.  I am open to review. 

Edited January 27 by Canuck Surfer

[Odd.]

On 1/26/2024 at 8:21 AM, Bob Long said:

 

I'm curious how much responsibility you assign to Iranian leadership for this conflict.

Not much? What are they supposed to do other than protect their selective interests in the Middle East? Hamas and Iran have no common interests other than being anti Israel, which is not enough for Iran to participate in the conflict. Of course Iran being the main aggressors of the Middle East, they’re more than happy to fund Hamas through its networks because it allows them to encroach on Israel without actually getting involved. Iran wouldn’t dare  step foot into this war and risk any further conflict with the U.S and its allies, which Israel precisely wants.

 

Israel has attacked Iranian buildings in Syria in hopes of baiting them into the war. There was no real reason for them to bomb those buildings other than to spark further unrest. Personally, I am indifferent towards this situation, as Iran is the root cause of political unrest and instability in the Middle East. 

[Canuck Surfer]

28 minutes ago, Odd. said:

Not much? What are they supposed to do other than protect their selective interests in the Middle East?

 

Iran is widely accused Human Rights atrocities of most minorities. What rights are you suggesting should be defended?

 

Have you thought about turning yourself in to the morality police.  

 

 

[Bob Long]

2 hours ago, Odd. said:

Not much? What are they supposed to do other than protect their selective interests in the Middle East? Hamas and Iran have no common interests other than being anti Israel, which is not enough for Iran to participate in the conflict. Of course Iran being the main aggressors of the Middle East, they’re more than happy to fund Hamas through its networks because it allows them to encroach on Israel without actually getting involved. Iran wouldn’t dare  step foot into this war and risk any further conflict with the U.S and its allies, which Israel precisely wants.

 

Israel has attacked Iranian buildings in Syria in hopes of baiting them into the war. There was no real reason for them to bomb those buildings other than to spark further unrest. Personally, I am indifferent towards this situation, as Iran is the root cause of political unrest and instability in the Middle East. 

 

"not much" - that tells me all I need to know, thanks. 

 

[Odd.]

1 hour ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Iran is widely accused Human Rights atrocities of most minorities. What rights are you suggesting should be defended?

 

Have you thought about turning yourself in to the morality police.  

 

 

Yes precisely my point. Iran is the main culprit behind the turmoil in the Middle East. Though as much as Iran has been meddling with the current conflict in Gaza, they don’t actually really care about it and quite frankly it has little to do with them in the grand scheme of things. They only care about what protects their interests. They’re not stepping foot or getting directly involved, they won’t dare do that. the roots of the problem go far beyond than the twiddling thumbs of the leaders in Tehran. 

[Odd.]

2 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

"not much" - that tells me all I need to know, thanks. 

 

I’m glad I could give you that “gotcha” moment. 

[Ilunga]

5 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

What a bunch of garbage. You take the prize of finding the most ridiculous examples of idiots online and posting them here.

 

One of those people you are calling  " idiots" in Super19 post is Josh Paul.

 

Josh worked for the state department, he was the director of congressional and public affairs for the the state departments bureau of Military Affairs. 

He was basically an arms dealer, for the US government,  which is not a very cool job, he actually states this, talking about the moral complexities he faced and why he stayed in the job, stating he would do so while he considered he was doing more good than harm.

 

I have already brought up Josh in this thread, he quit his job because in his own words

" Hamas's attack on Israel was a monstrosity of monstrosities 

But I believe to the core of my soul, that the response Israel is taking and with it the American support for that response and for the status quo of the occupation, will only lead to more and deeper suffering for both the Israeli and Palestinian people " 

 

Note that he expresses empathy for both Israelis and Palestinians.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/oct/19/state-department-official-josh-paul-quits-weapons-israel

 

 

I can confidently state to the point he quit his job he was far more informed about the situation in Israel the Occupied territories and Gaza than any poster on this forum.

[Bob Long]

3 minutes ago, Odd. said:

I’m glad I could give you that “gotcha” moment. 

 

I don't give a fuck about internet gotcha moments. 

[Ilunga]

3 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

The UNRWA structure itself was idealistic.  

 

Over 30,000 local Palestinians hired to help distribute, aid, services & care.  Those also receiving jobs. Good in theory.

 

Which led to massive fraud, corruption.  Many were not just fundamentalist, but part of the belief system in Islamic Jihad.  So the funds and programs were inherently believed well used to advance the cause of the the militant cause.  When it was supposed to be providing educational system, improving medical facilities, social justice, water treatment & access, food relief. 

 

For over 10 years nobody managed what services were provided & how money was spent.  

 

That 12 locals, so far, were among those involved directly in attacks not surprising at all. Probably tip of the iceberg. 30,000 to 40,000 receiving & doling programs without controls. Many will have been from the view of enforcing Sharia Law, not empowering women or victims of assault for example. Have their controllers within Hamas's hierarchy. Money of this scale has to be spent within mandates of protecting human rights. Not handed to those who believe the militant suppression of rights is the fundamental right / gift where the masses & women serve the male leaders of such organizations.

 

The bigger problem, in this context, is how the UN got duped, the aid never reached its intended audience. We will probably see some UN members in the Hague, New York suddenly retire to Qatar...

 

3 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Oops, forgot my reply; update in a few minutes with apologies.

 

What is the appropriate response?

 

There are a lot of issues.  

 

* Lets start with the right to safety for those arrested. And note the age of one victim 13.  Rape & violence happen in jails all the time. I don't believe it mentioned it was the guards, but it should not be nobody heard nothing, seen nothing either. A right to security in jail. That there is a political bend complicates it. Israel should have been, in the LOWEST common denominator, been making use of international monitoring of their detainee's. In Canada, 13 is around the age where criminal liability starts. The crimes have to be significant for this to be the case.  They probably were but it begs special care if this was an age impacted. 

 

* The act of stifling the questions, its something Israel gets accused of.  Not just here, but in examples where reporters are shot. The IDF and Israeli society need to be both transparent; but we need to see Israeli people in jail for their role in systems that don't hold violence accountable. That this was happening BEFORE Oct 7 extremely troubling. I have ALWAYS asked Israel to use rubber bullets, not real ones; redact their use of live weaponry suppressing violent protest.

 

* The nature of offenders is a conflict of its own.  How do you teach peace, humility? Consider me prejudice, but there is the issue of kids being brought up from 5 & 6 with life's goals including being a Martyr included in their education system. Repression of others to comply with, the Hamas version, of Sharia law also teaches kids to exert control as if its a right. Israeli kids also grow up being taught victimization. Nobody should be taught persecution without justice. 

 

* Thus 13 years olds throwing rocks is an issue.  It combines itself with a concept that one can exert violence as a tenant right. This is something Palestinians should be policing, teaching their kids NOT to do at age 5 & 7. Policing their own kids at 13, is something Palestinians have to do if someday they want peace.  Perhaps with international, or, cough, UN help. Have their own youth jails. When Palestinians AND Israeli factions are holding their own accountable; opportunity for justice and peace will improve dramatically.  

 

* Somewhere around 14? Help me anyone. Having kids with a goal of joining the military. Training kids the physical tools of being in the military, also international & local law. No problem. I do believe Gaza has a inherent right to develop a military defense force. Kids have to be taught holding people accountable for violence will reduce violence against all. Taught being a border guard keeping Israeli's out, if they are (they are) offending is a noble goal, but one with responsibilities. Israel, obviously the same & the same UN monitoring applies here if it is to help, more than what they are doing. Israel needs to be held accountable for their police actions in West Bank, a shared UN or UN/Arabic task force. We need to grow a generation of Palestinian & Israeli kids who believe in actual justice, preservation of human rights.

 

* I have little doubt; systemic feudal & sexual violence, dominant positions of authority is represented in offending kids, young adults & adults alike!

 

* This last 2 point aboves, not represented in the UNRWA programs, which it has to be.  

 

 

 

 

** Remember @Super19 , the ratio of hostage release has been 3 and 10 to 1, currently Hamas wants 100 to 1 for Israeli victims that were truly innocent.  I don't know the ratio of truly innocent Palestinian detainee's.  I am open to review. 

 

I thought I would reply to both these posts.

They demonstrate, IMO, that you are one of, if not the most balanced poster in this thread. 

I admit I get hung up on what I and many others believe is the injustice visited upon the Palestinian people.

 

The point I wanted to address was in relation to your comments about the Palestinian kids.

While I fully believe kids, and that's what teenagers are, impressionable kid's, have to be held accountable for their actions, how do we deal with this, punish them or educate them ?

In regards to the Palestinian kids put  yourself in their position, they live in poverty without much hope for their future.

What's the obvious answer, give them some hope for their future.

I am very certain that locking them up is not going to help me overcome their beliefs that are still only forming, have not become full blown ideologies at that age.

Same as when you lock up kids with hardened criminals, it's like an education for them.

 

In regards to their indoctrination, went into Festival hall last night and saw NOFX for the very last time, they were so good, backed up by the Clowns who were also fuckin awesome.

Also skated and watched some junior girls hockey, they were awesome, throwing hits, crisp passes, quality hockey.

 

Anyway they played their song  72 hooker's /virgin's.

Mike wrote this song after watching Pierre Rehov's doco Suicide Killers, I highly recommend watching this movie.

One of the many stories that are told is about a couple of teenage kids whose bombs failed to go off.

When the authorities were questioning them about their motives, they stated they didn't know much about politics, their Imam had promised them 72 virgin's if they " matryed " themselves.

That to me is a form of evil/ child abuse right there.

 

 

 

 

" When everybody's getting blow jobs 

That's when we'll finally have world peace "

 

[Ilunga]

59 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

I don't give a fuck about internet gotcha moments. 

 

 

 

 

" I don't believe in God, I believe in Goddess

I don't believe in prayer but believe in worship

I don't believe in destiny, but I can feel luck 

I don't believe in people cause they don't give a fuck 

 

I kinda like hypotheses, I kinda dig laws 

I LIKE DEFENDING CAUSES AND UNDERDOGS 

I like theories of evolution and design 

I don't believe in anything except for decline

I don't believe in infinity, I think there's an end 

I don't want an afterlife, I wanna transcend

I am going to do everything I want to right here 

I want a life peculiar, and I want it severe "

 

[Ilunga]

And to finish our tribute to , white trash, two heebs and a bean,  I will finish with their Opus that is more pertinent today than when they wrote it a quarter of a century ago, 

 

And very pertinent to this conflict

 

 

 

" And so we go

On with our lives 

We know the truth

But prefer lies

Lies are simple

Simple is bliss

Why go against tradition when we can

Admit defeat

Live in decline 

Be the victim of our own design 

The status quo

Built on suspect

Why should anyone stick out their necks 

Fellow members

Of we've got ours 

I'd like to introduce you to our host

He's got his and 

I've got mine

We got decline "

 

 

 

So long and thanks for all the shoes guys........

 

[Ilunga]

I know people think I am stupid for promoting non violence, and peaceful means to resolve human conflict, this saddens me, not in relation to my myself, but what it states about the human condition.  

 

I could quote many things from this article, don't get me wrong the author is not perfect either, however he presents powerful ideas about peaceful coexistence.

 

 

https://www.commondreams.org/opinion/nonviolent-solution-israel-palestine-conflict

 

One quote that stands out to me 

 

Sami Awad says 

" I chose. I chose to stand against your hate and not hate you, to resist your persecution and not demean you, to overcome your oppression and not suppress you, to respond to your violence with non violence. I chose to speak loud and clear for freedom and life and not insult you.

I chose love to be my motivation. " 

 

What he discusses in this article about trauma both past and present is very relevant to this never ending conflict.

I am talking about trauma that both Isrealis and Palestinians feel, the more I think about this idea, the more I believe this is a trauma driven conflict. 

 

From the article

" To me, it seems that an often missing link lies in, how social, political, and economic systems chanel the energy of trauma into oppressing entire groups of people and how they perpetuate trauma at a massive scale through systemic violence. For example they implant beliefs into peoples minds that make the oppression of or violence against other groups seem rational, by portraying the oppression of " them " as a condition of safety for " us ". "

 

Think about this idea in relation to both Hamas and Israeli leaders. 

 

I have often thought about trauma in its various forms, I have lived all my life suffering from anxiety and it was only later in life that I learnt that a mother could pass on anxiety to their child in the womb.

Then later learning about my biological mothers situation, and how stressed out she would have been. 

 

This article is worth reading just in regards to the discussion on trauma IMO.

 

" I have no doubt that Hamas would actually throw Jews into the sea and violently overthrow Israel if they could. But that's the point, they can't. They're facing one of the worlds best-equipped and most efficient armies backed by the most powerful nations on the planet. However atrocious a massacre, October 7 didn't pose an existential danger to the state of Israel. But Israel's reaction to Gazans is doing exactly what they fear Hamas is doing to them. Such are the workings of trauma. " 

 

@Optimist Prime 

From the article

 

" I believe that as long as our political " solutions " operate within the political framework of ethnocentric nation-states that necessarily impose a brutal " either- or " logic, violent competition will seem to be inevitable. Instead of a one-state or two-state solution, could we imagine a no state solution ? A plurinational confederation for the people's of Israel-Palestine ? 

 

You might think this is simply too far out. But Hannah Arendt widely considered the most important political philosopher of the 20th century, floated this idea already in the 1940's. You might be even more surprised to learn that what I am describing is a lived reality already in one of the regions most difficult corners, in North East Syria. In a area known as Rojava making up roughly a quarter of Syria, several million people are experimenting to build a society beyond the system of a nation-state, capitalism, and patriarchy, and are operating on the principles of grassroots democracy, feminism, multi-ethnic peaceful coexistence, restorative justice and regenerative agriculture. If this works in Syria, why shouldn't it also work in Israel-Palestine. " 

 

Finally the article states

 

" You might insist that this is impossible but the strategists of war and oppression wouldn't think that way, they never let a crisis go to waste. As the chief theorist of neoliberalism, Milton Friedman famously said, " when a crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That I believe is our basic function, to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes the politically inevitable". What if we applied the same thinking to collective liberation ? " 

 

I have never done this before, I plead with people to read this article.

As I have stated, it, like any human thoughts, are not perfect, however if you believe in living in free and just societies, where we treat each other with dignity, respect and compassion, it certainly provides some insight into how we might just have a way to do this.

 

And remember this, I hate quoting Stalin but he was on point when he stated

 

Ideas are more powerful than guns. We don't let our enemies have guns, so why, do we let them have ideas ? 

 

Ideas are the most powerful " weapons " we can wield.

 

 

The question is what ideas do we " wield " 

Edited January 28 by Ilunga

[RomanPer]

10 hours ago, Super19 said:

 

 

Finally.

[RomanPer]

9 hours ago, Super19 said:

Let's continue giving military aid to the country that stands accused of genocide at the ICJ. And lets call the accusations meritless, even as the top court in the world gives plausible standing for the case which involves the worst thing humanity can do.

 

Let's also take every word the accused state says as truth, we don't even need to ask for evidence - the state aligns with our western values so therefore their words are true.

 

Let's also discredit the UN and cut the funding to the humanitarian aid organization that is supposed to be helping refugees. We are doing everything we can to help the refugees, by cutting off funding for humanitarian aid that is supposed to go to them (but it instead goes to terrorists), and by sending fighter jets and bombs that is used to target the terrorists that live amongst these poor refugees.

 

By cutting off any funding (so as it doesn't fall into the wrong hands) to Gaza, and by sending fighter jets and bombs to the IDF who will then target terrorists (not civillians), humanity will prevail, justice will be restored, and a lasting peace will arise from the rubble. But we just need to wait one generation, for all the traumatized lunatics to be reprogrammed from the terroristic brainwashing.

 

 

I don't think anything I said here anti-semetic?

 

Catch up on the legal definitions. “Accused” <> “Convicted”. I can go and accuse you of being a child molester. Will it make you one?

[Optimist Prime]

2 hours ago, Ilunga said:

I know people think I am stupid for promoting non violence, and peaceful means to resolve human conflict, this saddens me, not in relation to my myself, but what it states about the human condition.  

@Optimist Prime 

 

I got a lot of respect for you man, I don't think anyone here thinks you are stupid.

 

I just have a slightly different world view, after seeing it up close and in person on 4 different continents. Bad guys get away with horrible things when good people do nothing in the name of peace. I honestly feel that if a person or group decides their cause is worth murdering for, they are on the dark side. Oct 7th needed a response to both stop it from recurring and to deter others from commiting a massacre in the future. Hamas will be a cautionary tale not to poke the tiger in the eye, as it were.

[Ilunga]

14 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

I got a lot of respect for you man, I don't think anyone here thinks you are stupid.

 

I just have a slightly different world view, after seeing it up close and in person on 4 different continents. Bad guys get away with horrible things when good people do nothing in the name of peace. I honestly feel that if a person or group decides their cause is worth murdering for, they are on the dark side. Oct 7th needed a response to both stop it from recurring and to deter others from commiting a massacre in the future. Hamas will be a cautionary tale not to poke the tiger in the eye, as it were.

 

I have a lot of respect, not just for you, but your experience in the matters we are discussing. 

You have a great volume of experience in regards to this topic.

 

What do you think about the trauma angle in relation to this conflict, not just current trauma, but decades of inborn trauma, on both sides.

 

Also what do you think about the non state solution ?

And the example of this is Northern Syria ?

I know you have agreed with me in regards to a global identity for humanity. 

 

I was just about to post this quote by I man I admire greatly, partly because he advocated non violence as a way to achieve justice.

 

" In spite of temporary victories, violence never brings permanent peace " 

 

And there is this one 

 

" Non violence is a powerful and just weapon. Indeed it is a weapon unique in history, which cuts without wounding and ennobles the man who wields it "

 

Martin Luther King 

 

Edit 

The people who formed the state of Isreal thought that murdering people in the name of their cause was acceptable.

Edited January 28 by Ilunga

[RomanPer]

2 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

I have a lot of respect, not just for you, but your experience in the matters we are discussing. 

You have a great volume of experience in regards to this topic.

 

What do you think about the trauma angle in relation to this conflict, not just current trauma, but decades of inborn trauma, on both sides.

 

Also what do you think about the non state solution ?

And the example of this is Northern Syria ?

I know you have agreed with me in regards to a global identity for humanity. 

 

I was just about to post this quote by I man I admire greatly, partly because he advocated non violence as a way to achieve justice.

 

" In spite of temporary victories, violence never brings permanent peace " 

 

And there is this one 

 

" Non violence is a powerful and just weapon. Indeed it is a weapon unique in history, which cuts without wounding and ennobles the man who wields it "

 

Martin Luther King 

 

Edit 

The people who formed the state of Isreal thought that murdering people in the name of their cause was acceptable.

 

That last statement doesn’t sit well with me. I feel like you keep on bringing the Begin involvement in the King David Hotel attack. Menachem Begin didn’t “form” the state of Israel. He became a politician and a PM much later. The State of Israel was formed by people with very socialist views and until this day Israel still has a lot of that socialistic (and almost communistic) influence in many of its establishments.

 

in addition, you can literally take every single country in the world and find cases where its founding fathers “murdered people in the name of their cause”. Yet, you are singling out Israel only.

[Canuck Surfer]

9 hours ago, Odd. said:

Yes precisely my point. Iran is the main culprit behind the turmoil in the Middle East. Though as much as Iran has been meddling with the current conflict in Gaza, they don’t actually really care about it and quite frankly it has little to do with them in the grand scheme of things. They only care about what protects their interests. They’re not stepping foot or getting directly involved, they won’t dare do that. the roots of the problem go far beyond than the twiddling thumbs of the leaders in Tehran. 

 

50 and 80 years ago the CIA meddled as Iran is right now. In Iran, Guatemala, the Philippines, Chile, Vietnam, Afghanistan. Much more.

 

Funding Hamas by Iran and it's militant directive is like staging a coup empowering those who don't represent the interests of a peaceful Palestine.  There is a time pending, being planned, when such incoherence would make these parts of the Middle East attainable targets for Iran itself to control. They have global plans. 

 

FTM the most important byproduct is a war killing tens of thousands of civilians.  The weakening of a key rival. It has a lot to do with Iran. 

 

They further control much of the dark web & black market economies in the Middle East. Such markets a source of revenue in opium, human & arms trafficking. Which keeps their Islamic 'Fundamental' rule, ability to enforce some of the worlds harshest restrictions on personal freedom in place. In short Hamas makes Iran money, their investment has to be paid back. With interest & with privileges that make even more money. 

 

It was not good when the CIA did it; its not good now. 

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

5 hours ago, Ilunga said:

Sami Awad says 

" I chose. I chose to stand against your hate and not hate you

 

This has to apply to Israel, and Hamas.

 

Each, Palestinians if you don't believe Hamas is their representative, has to stop its own from killing the enemy? From hating the enemy!

 

Forgiveness also applies to relinquishing blame.  I like, I really like the outlook of Martin Luther King Junior. It is time for a peaceful protest!  I don't like the association of Israel being formed on the back of terrorist activities by M Begin.  

 

Israel was formed on the back of the Balfour declaration. Historical agreements. Probably very much in spite of what Begin did before Israel was formed. I am not sure I want Yahya Sinwar as the next President of the PA in an independent state. The Palestinian people still need their place. They need a Balfour declaration.     

 

 

[Ilunga]

34 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

That last statement doesn’t sit well with me. I feel like you keep on bringing the Begin involvement in the King David Hotel attack. Menachem Begin didn’t “form” the state of Israel. He became a politician and a PM much later. The State of Israel was formed by people with very socialist views and until this day Israel still has a lot of that socialistic (and almost communistic) influence in many of its establishments.

 

in addition, you can literally take every single country in the world and find cases where its founding fathers “murdered people in the name of their cause”. Yet, you are singling out Israel only.

 

The bombing of the king David Hotel is the least of the Israeli attrocities/massacres.

 

I was replying to @Optimist Prime comment 

 

 " I honestly feel that if a person or group decides their cause is worth murdering for, they are on the darkside "  

 

 "CLASSIFIED DOCS REVEAL MASSACRES IN '48 AND WHAT ISRAELI LEADERS KNEW "

 

 

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2021-12-09/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/classified-docs-reveal-deir-yassin-massacre-wasnt-the-only-one-perpetrated-by-isra/0000017f-e496-d7b2-a77f-e79772340000

 

" Testimonies continue to pile up, documents are revealed, and gradually a broader picture begins to emerge of murder committed by Israeli troops during the war of independence. Minutes recorded in cabinet meetings in 1948 leave no room for doubt, Israel's leaders knew in real time about the blood drenched events that accompanied the conquest of the Arab villages " 

 

" Cabinet minister Haim-Moshe Shapira said that all of Israel's moral foundations had been undermined. Minister David Remez remarked that the deeds that had been done remove us from the category of Jews and from the category of human beings altogether. Other ministers were also appalled. "  

 

Israeli source, Isreali government members, commenting on that Israeli information.

 

This is a thread about Israel, the Occupied territories and Gaza. 

 

When you take into context @Optimist Prime comment into my original reply what conclusion do you come to ?

 

I am only singling out Israel ?

I have condemned Hamas's use of violence both before and after this attack. 

I have also stated

A Terrorist is a Terrorist is a Terrorist.

They should be all held to account.

 

I guess why that euphemism, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, is used when people are biased. 

 

Also in regards to holding Isreal to account about murdering people for their cause, don't you remember my post about invasion day/ Australia Day here in Aus and why it should be changed ?

Because it offends our indigenous people in relation to massacres committed around that time.

 

As I have stated many times, no fear or favour for anyone.

[Ilunga]

19 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

This has to apply to Israel, and Hamas.

 

Each, Palestinians if you don't believe Hamas is their representative, has to stop its own from killing the enemy? From hating the enemy!

 

Forgiveness also applies to relinquishing blame.  I like, I really like the outlook of Martin Luther King Junior. It is time for a peaceful protest!  I don't like the association of Israel being formed on the back of terrorist activities by M Begin.  

 

Israel was formed on the back of the Balfour declaration. Historical agreements. Probably very much in spite of what Begin did before Israel was formed. I am not sure I want Yahya Sinwar as the next President of the PA in an independent state. The Palestinian people still need their place. They need a Balfour declaration.     

 

 

 

I think, knowing me that kinda goes without saying.

After over 300 pages of promoting a peaceful resolution that involves both sides ? 

 

I suggest you read the article in the post above into what Israelis actions where in regards to the actual forming of the state of Israel and what the current leaders in their government think about those actions.

Also research the actions of the Irgun, the Stern gang and the Lehi.

 

All this is in relation to @Optimist Prime comment 

" I honestly feel that if a person or group decides their cause is worth murdering for, they are on the darkside "

 

And brother in today's world their  acts would be considered terrorism.