Optimist Prime Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 In short, the destruction of Gaza going on right now has everything to do with the choices of the people running Gaza and what they decided to do on Oct 7th. You can write a book or 12 about the history of the injustices on all sides, but 4 months ago the de facto government of gaza attacked Israel outright. They chose murder to advance their cause and now like rabid dogs they need to be put down. Again, i keep repeating this: no one owns a time machine, recent events and todays reactions to them are really the matter at hand. edit: i will go one further since you keep @ing me here: when tribes chose peace historically they are eliminated by the worse people who chose violence. Self Defence is recognized by the UN and every nation on earth as a just cause to go to war. You want to be all cathartic in your life, and I wish you well in that endeavour: lucky for us we live in democratic rights based nations that will allow you to mostly do that your whole long life if you choose. I am glad for you that you have that option. I do too, safe and comfy in one of the best places on earth. The cathars however were made extinct because they wouldnt' fight back against murderers. I have said over and over that no one here is changing anyones mind, and nothing said here will change a thing over there. I believe I have stated the truth. Academic debate over nuances just seems to me to be so much tooting of our own horns, and I lose interest quickly. Speaking of tooting my own horn: within 30 minutes of the rocket 'attack' on the hospital some months ago I pointed out it was a Hamas rocket and was scorned and ridiculed. About two months ago I pointed out how Hamas has infiltrated the UNRWA mission and up to 80% of UNRWA staff in Gaza were in fact Hamas members and operatives. I was again ridiculed and scorned. Weeks after the rocket attack my analysis was confirmed and now months after my research of UN documents at length and depth and posting my take on what I found..now the Five Eyes, Italy and Finland are cutting funding to UNRWA because it has been infiltrated by Hamas. Toot Toot. I bring those two things up simply as proof nothing anyone of us says here will matter to the greater events going on over there now. Sorry to point it out. I think you are a good person. I try to also be a good person. Both of those facts are irrelevant to the topic at hand. 2 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnarcore Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 9 hours ago, Optimist Prime said: I got a lot of respect for you man, I don't think anyone here thinks you are stupid. I just have a slightly different world view, after seeing it up close and in person on 4 different continents. Bad guys get away with horrible things when good people do nothing in the name of peace. I honestly feel that if a person or group decides their cause is worth murdering for, they are on the dark side. Oct 7th needed a response to both stop it from recurring and to deter others from commiting a massacre in the future. Hamas will be a cautionary tale not to poke the tiger in the eye, as it were. Sure...but did it need this response? A level of destruction not seen since WW2? Not so sure on that. I have no idea how else they could go about trying to eradicate Hamas but they aren't and frankly are losing a lot of support they had. If not for such a powerful lobby in the US you'd see more speak out. The Israel lobby group is well funded and ruthless. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 18 minutes ago, Gnarcore said: Sure...but did it need this response? A level of destruction not seen since WW2? Not so sure on that. I have no idea how else they could go about trying to eradicate Hamas but they aren't and frankly are losing a lot of support they had. If not for such a powerful lobby in the US you'd see more speak out. The Israel lobby group is well funded and ruthless. I know, i had a run in 20 years ago in Kingston with an Israeli operative. I kid you not. If i wasn't both semi paranoid and in possession of a really good memory I would never have spotted him. I believe ruthless comes from being attacked by every single neighbouring country over the last 80 years. Anything less than ruthless and Israel may already have been wiped off the map. For what it is worth I believe it was a mistake to create Israel in the first place, but once again we don't own time machines. We can only deal with the current reality. I don't believe Israel is committing genocide in Gaza. I can see they are destroying the infrastructure of Hamas with gusto and by extension most of Gaza with it. Really that is on Hamas. Tunnels and factories under and in hospitals and UN schools..all the crap we have seen in media and online. There is really no other way to dislodge the government of a place via war than to defeat them. It really sucks for the people of Gaza, and yet not one Gazan has turned over any Hamas to the IDF yet to speed up the end of the violence. We might say the English were ruthless during the Battle of Britain and the rest of that war, up to and including blowing Berlin off the map until the losing side finally accepted defeat, but do we consider them evil for it? If the outmanned, outgunned, outfinanced murderous terrorist regime of Hamas insists on fighting to the last man; what other choice does Israel have than to oblige them? I remember a video i posted of a Hamas operator with a rocket launcher running out of a Hospitals front door, firing, and running back in to reload..then out again to shoot...and several people were replying to that real life video with comments like "there is no proof Hamas is operating in the hospitals"... it is a pointless conversation when everyone here has an opinion they will defend to the death. LOL.... poor choice of words. ANywho, take care. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 This is bad. Biden will likely be forced to respond to this - don't know the source of the attack but likely Iraq or Iran. The escalations continue to rise rather than decline, bad news for all in the region. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 47 minutes ago, Gnarcore said: Sure...but did it need this response? A level of destruction not seen since WW2? Not so sure on that. I have no idea how else they could go about trying to eradicate Hamas but they aren't and frankly are losing a lot of support they had. If not for such a powerful lobby in the US you'd see more speak out. The Israel lobby group is well funded and ruthless. Do we actually know whats left of Hamas ability to cause major harm? No you'll never get rid of the crazies, but not sure what capabilities they have left. I suspect very little now That could be why we're seeing these escalation attempts elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 18 minutes ago, Super19 said: This is bad. Biden will likely be forced to respond to this - don't know the source of the attack but likely Iraq or Iran. The escalations continue to rise rather than decline, bad news for all in the region. Haven’t the crazies been firing rockets at US bases for a while now? If there is a response specific to this attack then it might be along the lines of that Beach Boys’ song. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 Quote Since mid-October, a group of Iran-backed militias calling itself the Islamic Resistance in Iraq have launched regular attacks on US forces in Iraq and Syria, which the group said are in retaliation for Washington's support for Israel in the war in Gaza. Yet another proxy group dancing to Iran's puppeteering of their strings. Likely this is the group that killed 3 US servicemen and wounded another 25 near the three nations border of Syria, Jordan and Iraq. I am pretty sure that the response will be more of the same of US and allied forces taking out these camps ability to wage war. One off strikes of high probability targets are likely to continue. I don't believe the US wants a hot war with Iran at this time. I do believe it is inevitable, however the smarter course of action is to finish Gaza first. Subdue the Houthi's and see Hezbollah return to relative peaceful positions. If nothing else this will allow each of Iran's proxy's to be dealt with in bite size pieces. I guess therefore it up to Iran if they get directly involved or not while all this takes place over the coming months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 Just now, Optimist Prime said: Yet another proxy group dancing to Iran's puppeteering of their strings. Likely this is the group that killed 3 US servicemen and wounded another 25 near the three nations border of Syria, Jordan and Iraq. I am pretty sure that the response will be more of the same of US and allied forces taking out these camps ability to wage war. One off strikes of high probability targets are likely to continue. I don't believe the US wants a hot war with Iran at this time. I do believe it is inevitable, however the smarter course of action is to finish Gaza first. Subdue the Houthi's and see Hezbollah return to relative peaceful positions. If nothing else this will allow each of Iran's proxy's to be dealt with in bite size pieces. I guess therefore it up to Iran if they get directly involved or not while all this takes place over the coming months. Walking downtown Van yesterday I went past two protests. One large "free Palestine" party, and one much smaller one protesting the Iranian governments executions of political prisoners. The difference between the two protests was fascinating to me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 21 minutes ago, Bob Long said: Walking downtown Van yesterday I went past two protests. One large "free Palestine" party, and one much smaller one protesting the Iranian governments executions of political prisoners. The difference between the two protests was fascinating to me. Did you notice a few weeks ago they DID arrest that guy from the mall video in Vancouver who was telling people in front of the cops he would kill them.. everyone was wondering why he wasn't arrested there on the spot. Clearer and smarter heads prevailed and the lunatic was given time to go about his life for a bit first. Contact chaining was obviously going on in the background, who does he talk to , who supports him, what are his habits and daily conversations and with whom. This is why I say it is a fine line between supporting peaceful civilians in Gaza and supporting terrorists and ending up on a terror watch list and no fly list here in Canada. That guy will likely be on both lists going forward and will probably face trial for uttering threats. 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 (edited) 8 hours ago, Ilunga said: The bombing of the king David Hotel is the least of the Israeli attrocities/massacres. I was replying to @Optimist Prime comment " I honestly feel that if a person or group decides their cause is worth murdering for, they are on the darkside " "CLASSIFIED DOCS REVEAL MASSACRES IN '48 AND WHAT ISRAELI LEADERS KNEW " https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2021-12-09/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/classified-docs-reveal-deir-yassin-massacre-wasnt-the-only-one-perpetrated-by-isra/0000017f-e496-d7b2-a77f-e79772340000 " Testimonies continue to pile up, documents are revealed, and gradually a broader picture begins to emerge of murder committed by Israeli troops during the war of independence. Minutes recorded in cabinet meetings in 1948 leave no room for doubt, Israel's leaders knew in real time about the blood drenched events that accompanied the conquest of the Arab villages " " Cabinet minister Haim-Moshe Shapira said that all of Israel's moral foundations had been undermined. Minister David Remez remarked that the deeds that had been done remove us from the category of Jews and from the category of human beings altogether. Other ministers were also appalled. " Israeli source, Isreali government members, commenting on that Israeli information. This is a thread about Israel, the Occupied territories and Gaza. When you take into context @Optimist Prime comment into my original reply what conclusion do you come to ? I am only singling out Israel ? I have condemned Hamas's use of violence both before and after this attack. I have also stated A Terrorist is a Terrorist is a Terrorist. They should be all held to account. I guess why that euphemism, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, is used when people are biased. Also in regards to holding Isreal to account about murdering people for their cause, don't you remember my post about invasion day/ Australia Day here in Aus and why it should be changed ? Because it offends our indigenous people in relation to massacres committed around that time. As I have stated many times, no fear or favour for anyone. Did you read my message carefully? I specifically said that literally every country in the world was founded by someone whom would kill for their cause. It wasn’t Hamas vs Israel comment. You can literally say it about evert freaking country. Yet, your comment is only about Israel. Edited January 28 by RomanPer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnarcore Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 1 hour ago, Bob Long said: Do we actually know whats left of Hamas ability to cause major harm? No you'll never get rid of the crazies, but not sure what capabilities they have left. I suspect very little now That could be why we're seeing these escalation attempts elsewhere. Well they managed to kill dozens of IDF the other day in a battle so clearly some are still kicking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 52 minutes ago, Gnarcore said: Well they managed to kill dozens of IDF the other day in a battle so clearly some are still kicking. yeah, that was shocking: if you mean the IDF team that was wiring a building for demolition? What bad section commanders they had to have a dense build up of personell with massive explosives in a small location. I am guessing one or two of these below would be all that Hamas required, but certainly a 'battle' they can put in the win column. Not sure who died/who survived but I bet the local on the ground leadership of that sapper team is in hot water with his superiors. Those losses COULD have been mitigated with better in the moment tactics: no more than two in a given room/building and the rest fanned out for 360 support and security, et cetera, just off the top of my head. I wonder if the Hamas guys popped up from a tunnel or infiltrated along a ground route...curious. I will never know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 2 hours ago, Optimist Prime said: Did you notice a few weeks ago they DID arrest that guy from the mall video in Vancouver who was telling people in front of the cops he would kill them.. everyone was wondering why he wasn't arrested there on the spot. Clearer and smarter heads prevailed and the lunatic was given time to go about his life for a bit first. Contact chaining was obviously going on in the background, who does he talk to , who supports him, what are his habits and daily conversations and with whom. This is why I say it is a fine line between supporting peaceful civilians in Gaza and supporting terrorists and ending up on a terror watch list and no fly list here in Canada. That guy will likely be on both lists going forward and will probably face trial for uttering threats. no hadn't heard that, but that approach makes me glad we have an actual intelligence service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 3 hours ago, RomanPer said: Did you read my message carefully? I specifically said that literally every country in the world was founded by someone whom would kill for their cause. It wasn’t Hamas vs Israel comment. You can literally say it about evert freaking country. Yet, your comment is only about Israel. This is a thread about the about Israel, the Occupied territories and Gaza. You jumped into the middle of a conversation I was having with another person in regards to a comment he made. So going by your logic, if the actions of Israel, massacres/attrocities committed back in 1948 are justified, then surely by the same logic you are using, the actions of Hamas are justified ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 5 hours ago, Gnarcore said: Sure...but did it need this response? A level of destruction not seen since WW2? Not so sure on that. I have no idea how else they could go about trying to eradicate Hamas but they aren't and frankly are losing a lot of support they had. If not for such a powerful lobby in the US you'd see more speak out. The Israel lobby group is well funded and ruthless. 5 hours ago, Optimist Prime said: In short, the destruction of Gaza going on right now has everything to do with the choices of the people running Gaza and what they decided to do on Oct 7th. You can write a book or 12 about the history of the injustices on all sides, but 4 months ago the de facto government of gaza attacked Israel outright. They chose murder to advance their cause and now like rabid dogs they need to be put down. Again, i keep repeating this: no one owns a time machine, recent events and todays reactions to them are really the matter at hand. edit: i will go one further since you keep @ing me here: when tribes chose peace historically they are eliminated by the worse people who chose violence. Self Defence is recognized by the UN and every nation on earth as a just cause to go to war. You want to be all cathartic in your life, and I wish you well in that endeavour: lucky for us we live in democratic rights based nations that will allow you to mostly do that your whole long life if you choose. I am glad for you that you have that option. I do too, safe and comfy in one of the best places on earth. The cathars however were made extinct because they wouldnt' fight back against murderers. I have said over and over that no one here is changing anyones mind, and nothing said here will change a thing over there. I believe I have stated the truth. Academic debate over nuances just seems to me to be so much tooting of our own horns, and I lose interest quickly. Speaking of tooting my own horn: within 30 minutes of the rocket 'attack' on the hospital some months ago I pointed out it was a Hamas rocket and was scorned and ridiculed. About two months ago I pointed out how Hamas has infiltrated the UNRWA mission and up to 80% of UNRWA staff in Gaza were in fact Hamas members and operatives. I was again ridiculed and scorned. Weeks after the rocket attack my analysis was confirmed and now months after my research of UN documents at length and depth and posting my take on what I found..now the Five Eyes, Italy and Finland are cutting funding to UNRWA because it has been infiltrated by Hamas. Toot Toot. I bring those two things up simply as proof nothing anyone of us says here will matter to the greater events going on over there now. Sorry to point it out. I think you are a good person. I try to also be a good person. Both of those facts are irrelevant to the topic at hand. 80 years ago the defacto government of Israel attacked the Arabs/ Palestinians, committing massacres and other attrocities that would be considered acts of terrorism today. By your own words, people who murder in the name of their cause have gone to the dark side. What about the settlers murdering in the name of their cause ? That's happening right now, last few months. It seems that only one side is being held to account. This is all just history repeating itself, the protagonists of each side murdering in the name of their cause. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 5 hours ago, Gnarcore said: Sure...but did it need this response? A level of destruction not seen since WW2? Not so sure on that. I have no idea how else they could go about trying to eradicate Hamas but they aren't and frankly are losing a lot of support they had. If not for such a powerful lobby in the US you'd see more speak out. The Israel lobby group is well funded and ruthless. Yes, that's what so many people around the world are asking, is the response proportionate. 10,000 kids killed in 3 months? How can anyone justify that ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 24 minutes ago, Ilunga said: 80 years ago the defacto government of Israel attacked the Arabs/ Palestinians, committing massacres and other attrocities that would be considered acts of terrorism today. By your own words, people who murder in the name of their cause have gone to the dark side. What about the settlers murdering in the name of their cause ? That's happening right now, last few months. It seems that only one side is being held to account. This is all just history repeating itself, the protagonists of each side murdering in the name of their cause. If Israel did not strike first, Israel would have been attacked mercilessly the next day. That has been well established. It was a preemptive strike on the units that were moving to hit Israel. And that was the one time out of 16 big fights that Israel hit first. Nice of you to bring it up. Peace love and beads...but Israel is bad for hitting the guys about to murder them before they had a chance to murder them first? LOL....starting to get a whif of something foul here. Who do you think you are holding to account on a back page sub-forum of a hockey fans board? That is a part of your thing I don't understand. Israel is holding the government of Gaza to account for its attack on Oct 7th. We are just fighting over the meaning of words on a hockey forum. You aren't holding anyone to account here about anything. Hamas wasn't holding anyone to account on oct 7th either, they were out to murder and capture..what was it again: oh yes people who believe as you do: they literally were killed at a peace festival, 1200 folks...like cattle or sheep at a slaughter. That can not be left unanswered or the murderous scum would simply do it again. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 23 minutes ago, Ilunga said: Yes, that's what so many people around the world are asking, is the response proportionate. 10,000 kids killed in 3 months? How can anyone justify that ? 10k in 90 days =111 a day or 5 an hour (terrible yes, i shouldn't have to say so every freakin post) 1200 in 4 hours= 300 an hour!! your outrage math doesn't add up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 6 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said: 10k in 90 days =111 a day or 5 an hour (terrible yes, i shouldn't have to say so every freakin post) 1200 in 4 hours= 300 an hour!! your outrage math doesn't add up. So just to be a broken record, Hamas can stop all this tomorrow. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 13 minutes ago, Bob Long said: So just to be a broken record, Hamas can stop all this tomorrow. Yup. Surrender. Ends the war. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 Yeah I think the only history lesson here is for Gaza to learn to play nice with the bigger kids in the playground. I know I sound crass, but it is good advice that will save lives. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lock Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 (edited) 7 hours ago, Gnarcore said: Sure...but did it need this response? A level of destruction not seen since WW2? Not so sure on that. I have no idea how else they could go about trying to eradicate Hamas but they aren't and frankly are losing a lot of support they had. If not for such a powerful lobby in the US you'd see more speak out. The Israel lobby group is well funded and ruthless. I think there's a point where the Israelis could show themselves to Hamas as being weak if they don't respond the way they did. I know that sounds perhaps a little heartless, but we've seen lot of countries posturing at the expense of countless lives. Just look at Russia if you need another example. In no way am I condoning this by the way. I'm just saying what I've observed of their answer and stating why I think they answered the way they did. At the end of the day, political posturing doesn't always care how many live are lost from that posturing. Edited January 29 by The Lock 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hat Trick Maker Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 2 hours ago, Optimist Prime said: Yeah I think the only history lesson here is for Gaza to learn to play nice with the bigger kids in the playground. I know I sound crass, but it is good advice that will save lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 27 minutes ago, Hat Trick Maker said: Him too. Russia will die in the donbas 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hat Trick Maker Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 11 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said: Him too. Russia will die in the donbas Can't wait. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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