RomanPer Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 17 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said: I don't see Israel, who are never gonna be defeated in this conflict, to be the first ones to come to peace talks. They don't nearly have as much to lose if this goes on. Peace would have to come from the Palestinian side or Israel accomplishing its mission of destroying any threats. Any lasting peace would probably need a 3rd party to help facilitate and maintain it. Particularly one that shares the same mutual feelings toward Iran as Israel, like Saudi. Saudis are already on the record that the peace accord with Israel will resume after the war in Gaza is over. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 1 minute ago, RomanPer said: Saudis are already on the record that the peace accord with Israel will resume after the war in Gaza is over. I hadn't heard that, that's really good news. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 Just now, Sharpshooter said: I have a heart. I have a terrible other side too. They clash at times. Right now, I don’t want Palestinian civilians killed by an intrusive Israeli incursion. At the same time, I want Israelis to be safe from arbitrary attacks on them by people who are a proxy for Iran. This is the thing, this battle isn’t about Israel vs Palestinians, it’s about Israel and the West against Iranian hardliners. The victims are the innocent Palestinians and Israelis. If I had my way, the West would obliterate the Iranian leadership and their Republican Guard. The citizens of Iran are just passengers on the ride of their idiotic leaders. If they revolt, they get no support and get killed. I know the content of your character. That's all I need to know. We all have darkness and light within us. As I have stated before, in all wars the real victims are civilians. I am not as certain that Iran has a big a hand in this as some are claiming...however I am in total agreement that the Iranian leadership should be taken out of the equation asap. The middle east would be a safer place as soon as this happens. All the death and destruction breaks my heart, however it's the images of children that really fuck with my head. 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 This kid didnt even complain once in this video. What a proud older brother, hero. "Their bombs fall down on us like water because they (IDF) are cowards" - girl from Jenin early 2000s. Her words ring true today in Gaza. But this all started on Oct 7, right? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurn Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 15 minutes ago, Super19 said: But this all started on Oct 7, right? Sadly, a lot of people believe it will all be over when Hamas is gone; but most of those folk thought the same when the P.L.O. was gone. Kill Hamas, and something else will rise up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 If a handful of these guys surrender, it's fair if Israel allows a handful of kids to have their bellies full tonight. When all of Hamas surrenders, then all the kids can have their bellies full! But until that happens, not an ounce of aid will be delivered! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 21 minutes ago, Gurn said: Sadly, a lot of people believe it will all be over when Hamas is gone; but most of those folk thought the same when the P.L.O. was gone. Kill Hamas, and something else will rise up. Maybe it's time that they try something else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurn Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 24 minutes ago, Bob Long said: Maybe it's time that they try something else? Iirc they did try, but Israel screwed up, and supported Hamas, rather than the 'turned to peace' P.L.O. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 7 hours ago, Gurn said: Iirc they did try, but Israel screwed up, and supported Hamas, rather than the 'turned to peace' P.L.O. Are you really saying that Israel is responsible for Hamas actions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurn Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 (edited) 1 hour ago, Bob Long said: Are you really saying that Israel is responsible for Hamas actions? Trying to break down complex situations into one sentence, is kinda silly. Maybe someday, more people will understand both 'sides created and are responsible' for their actions. Edited January 31 by Gurn 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 18 minutes ago, Gurn said: Trying to break down complex situations into one sentence, is kinda silly. Maybe. It's also a good exercise to see where a line is. 18 minutes ago, Gurn said: Maybe someday, more people will understand both 'sides created and are responsible' for their actions. For sure. I haven't seen a lot of coverage on Gazan responsibility in all this out in the media. Maybe that will come later too. Israels actions have no shortage of coverage and analysis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 These people seem far to sure of themselves and far too happy about the destruction and death caused on and since Oct 7th. A victory conference and party seem ghoulish at best. Where are the outcries of this happening when we were told it wouldn't and there was no desire or heart to see it happening? This position is indefensible and provides a glimpse of how the average palestinian might be seen by these people with these views The line that is the bolded. Does that not sound similar to somethings said during the mid 40s by various leaders? Luckily there appears some sanity within the government but by and large these views, this celebrating...disgusting. So, to the echo chamber; what are the opinions of these statements, these views and this obvious push to do what we were told wouldn't be done? On Tuesday, the Trudeau government appeared to criticize a jubilant "Victory Conference" in Jerusalem. Organizers of Sunday's conference — which was attended by about a third of the Israeli cabinet — presented plans for proposed Israeli settlements in Gaza. "Canada rejects any proposal that calls for the forced displacement of Palestinians from Gaza and the establishment of additional settlements. Such inflammatory rhetoric undermines prospects for lasting peace," said a statement from Global Affairs Canada. In addition to the dozen ministers serving in Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's cabinet who attended the conference, some other ministers said they had missed it only because of other duties, or that they would be sure to attend the next one. Attendees included three ministers from Netanyahu's Likud Party and representatives of other parties in his coalition. Two Likud ministers appeared in a video with settler leader Daniella Weiss last week urging people to join them at the "Nation-building Conference for the Victory of Israel." Those attending the event heard speeches urging the replacement of Gaza's Palestinian population with Jewish settlers, scenes of religious fervour and chants of "Oslo is dead!" — a reference to the 1993 Oslo Accords and the peace process that was supposed to lead to a Palestinian state. Weiss said at the conference she's confident Gaza will soon be open for settlement. "They [Palestinians] will leave. We don't give them food, we don't give them anything. They have to leave," she said in English. "The world will accept them." Support for Gaza settlement growing fast in Israel Although leaders of the Israeli left and centre condemned the event, Tel Aviv University's Peace Index poll last Wednesday showed that about 53 per cent of Jewish Israelis are in favour of the idea of settling Gaza — twice the number that support a two-state solution. But polls also show that most Israelis want Netanyahu gone and his Likud Party would lose half its seats in the Knesset in any election in the near future. With his credentials as Israel's "Mr. Security" already in shreds because of the October 7 massacre, Netanyahu may now be preparing to throw away his other frequent pitch to Israeli voters — his claim to be a Washington insider who can get what Israel wants from the White House and the U.S. Congress. Netanyahu could be leaning toward a new strategy that would embrace Israel's isolation by risking a more open break with the Biden administration and casting himself as the defender of Israeli expansion against pressure from allies Numbers like those in the Peace Index poll suggest such an approach could have electoral success. Gloom about the war's stated goal of annihilating Hamas has led some to argue that the only way to seize victory is to crown the conquest of Gaza with a new plantation of Israeli settlers — that only when Palestinians see Jewish settlers living on the ruins of their former homes will they truly understand that Israel has won and they have lost. The movement names its proposed settlements Neve Katif, or "New Harvest," in honour of the Gush Katif or "Harvest Bloc" settlements that Israel evacuated from southern coastal Gaza in 2005. Settlers see a chance to reverse history Jewish settlers first began to enter Gaza following Israel's capture of the territory in the 1967 War. By 2004 there were 21 Israeli settlements in Gaza, home to almost 8,000 Israelis. That year, Israeli PM Ariel Sharon decided to launch his "unilateral disengagement" plan and freeze the peace process. Sharon wanted Israel to redraw and retrench the Jewish presence across the occupied territories, reinforcing it in lands that were considered more important to Jewish tradition and more defensible — places where Jews were — or might become — a majority. Gaza met none of those requirements. Its occupation was costly to Israel in lives and in money. So Sharon ordered the evacuation of settlers from Gaza in 2005, igniting a national drama which saw many Jewish settlers barricade themselves inside their settlement homes. It was a seminal moment for young settler radicals in Israel and some were ready to go to extremes. Israel's Shin Bet security service arrested and jailed four young radical settlers for allegedly plotting attacks on infrastructure. One of those four detained settlers, Bezalel Smotrich, is today Israel's minister of finance. Smotrich spoke at the Victory Conference, declaring that, "God willing, we will settle and we will be victorious." His party, Religious Zionism, is third-largest in the Knesset and is critical to the Netanyahu coalition's survival. His ally is Ben Gvir of Otzma Yehudit (Jewish Power), who also has a long history with Israel's security services, including convictions for inciting hatred and supporting terrorism. His party holds six crucial seats. Netanyahu came to power promising western allies that he could control the radicals in what all agreed was Israel's most right-wing government ever. "My hands are firmly on the steering wheel," he assured U.S. media outlets. But his precarious personal situation has given his most radical allies leverage over him. If Smotrich or Ben Gvir were to withdraw their parties from his coalition, his government would fall — and he would have to face three pending corruption trials. Netanyahu can't be convicted in those trials while he's still prime minister. That gives the two men great influence over Netanyahu, said Pinkas. But Ben Gvir and Smotrich also need Netanyahu, because their own parties could never form a government without Likud. "There are two things [Netanyahu] manages to do with extreme skill and competence, and that is winning elections and maintaining a coalition, which you can't say about most of his rivals," he said. Cracks in the army In recent weeks, Israelis have remarked on a growing trend of soldiers taking political positions publicly — especially reservists, who tend to be older, have jobs in civilian life and be more willing to challenge commanders. Some army reservists have set up a tent outside the prime minister's office demanding that Israel use harsher methods in Gaza. Senior officers have worried about a growing number of soldiers posting pro-settlement messages, flying Neve Katif flags, using orange colours associated with the Gaza settlement movement, or painting pro-settlement graffiti on Palestinian homes. One such video message seen by many Israelis shows four IDF soldiers in front of destroyed buildings addressing Netanyahu. "We conquer, we destroy, we settle. Did you hear that Bibi [Netanyahu]? We conquer, we destroy, we settle." "This is a bad phenomenon," Pinkas told CBC News. "There have always been claims that unless the political system changes somehow, the military will become a factionalized reflection of what's going on in society." On Monday, Israelis were shocked to see footage of IDF soldiers wrestling a uniformed comrade to the ground and arresting him at a crossing into Gaza, where Israeli protesters have been trying to block food from entering the starving enclave. The soldier appeared to have sided with the protesters. Another video on Tuesday showed IDF reservists urging Defence Minister Yoav Gallant to stop food aid from entering Gaza. "Don't be afraid to occupy," one soldier tells him. Although Pinkas said he doesn't expect the Netanyahu government to officially approve new settlements in Gaza, "there is a possibility, that no one should take lightly, that just like the settlements in the West Bank, two vans show up out of nowhere in the middle of the night on some godforsaken hill or rubble. They put a flag and call it the ancestral Gaza." Many Israeli settlements that began in just that way have gone on to be legalized, subsidized and connected to the electrical grid. Pinkas said that during active combat operations, he would expect the army to block such an effort. "But what happens if you have three simultaneous events like that, or three events like that within 10 days?" he asked. He said he fears that dismantling such embryonic settlements could further expose the faultlines in a politicized army. "If a brigade commander now gives an order to evacuate two illegal outposts in the West Bank or indeed in Gaza, you're going to have a bunch of soldiers who may disobey orders," he said. "And if that happens, then all hell breaks loose. This is a country that will be seriously considered as having unraveled at the seams. "We're not there yet. But there are very disconcerting signs about this." The language here is quite concerning https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/r1ivywtyp Minister Haim Katz: "The withdrawal created the Nazi monster, the correction will come through the resumption of settlement in the Gaza Strip." Minister Miki Zohar: "Security begins in settlement." Head of the Samaria Council Dagan: "Oslo and the deportation brought about this holocaust" 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 I am not in favour of it, but I don't think it is out of the question for Israel to expect reparations. Likely Gaza will lose territory on the South-East side of the main Salah Al Deen highway, maybe even large chunks of Northern Gaza near Gaza City. Who knows, not me, but there is an amphitheater of historical context and precedence for a party who starts and loses a war to give up territory as reparations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taxi Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 17 hours ago, Optimist Prime said: It kind of reminds me of a childs game we would play in grade school: "home base safe, No outs, stompsies no erasies" when a kid playing kick the can would make it to the supposed 'safe spot'. The terror cell was certainly counting in being home safe in the hospital. Play stupid games win stupid prizes. Had they surrendered instead they would be safe in a cell somewhere, alive. This is exactly what I think about when I hear stories about Hamas operatives in hospitals and schools. Unfortunately for them, that's no the way international law works. International law only provides protection to medical facilities that are solely being used for non-military purposes. As soon as militants step foot in the facility, it now has a dual purpose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 1 hour ago, Optimist Prime said: I am not in favour of it, but I don't think it is out of the question for Israel to expect reparations. Likely Gaza will lose territory on the South-East side of the main Salah Al Deen highway, maybe even large chunks of Northern Gaza near Gaza City. Who knows, not me, but there is an amphitheater of historical context and precedence for a party who starts and loses a war to give up territory as reparations. Ponders in Russia v Ukraine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 (edited) 1 hour ago, Optimist Prime said: I am not in favour of it, but I don't think it is out of the question for Israel to expect reparations. Likely Gaza will lose territory on the South-East side of the main Salah Al Deen highway, maybe even large chunks of Northern Gaza near Gaza City. Who knows, not me, but there is an amphitheater of historical context and precedence for a party who starts and loses a war to give up territory as reparations. the problem (among others) is won't that just continue to be viewed as "occupied" land and just be more of the same? Israel doesn't get this consideration that other countries have when it comes to territory obtained via wars. I don't see this changing anything. Until Israel's neighbours recognize their legitimate right to exist I think we're stuck. Edited January 31 by Bob Long Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 7 hours ago, Optimist Prime said: I am not in favour of it, but I don't think it is out of the question for Israel to expect reparations. Likely Gaza will lose territory on the South-East side of the main Salah Al Deen highway, maybe even large chunks of Northern Gaza near Gaza City. Who knows, not me, but there is an amphitheater of historical context and precedence for a party who starts and loses a war to give up territory as reparations. Funny how some attacks are defined as acts of war, and some are defined as acts of terrorism. 1200 people were killed on October 7 in an attack that was never about taking land, it was about killing people and taking them hostage. Nearly 3,000 people were killed on 9/11 that some describe as an act of terror, yet the US response was one to an act of war https://australiainstitute.org.au/post/the-us-reacted-to-the-9-11-attacks-as-an-act-of-war-not-an-act-of-terror/ So taking historical context and precedence into account, seeing that most of the terrorists were Saudis, shouldn't Saudi Arabia give up some of their land ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 1 hour ago, Ilunga said: Funny how some attacks are defined as acts of war, and some are defined as acts of terrorism. 1200 people were killed on October 7 in an attack that was never about taking land, it was about killing people and taking them hostage. Nearly 3,000 people were killed on 9/11 that some describe as an act of terror, yet the US response was one to an act of war https://australiainstitute.org.au/post/the-us-reacted-to-the-9-11-attacks-as-an-act-of-war-not-an-act-of-terror/ So taking historical context and precedence into account, seeing that most of the terrorists were Saudis, shouldn't Saudi Arabia give up some of their land ? To Israel? what are you talking about? EDIT: Wait, I think you mean the saudi's owe america land cuz of 911? The terrorists were individuals NOT a government in charge of the Strip, as it were. Sorry I didn't put it together as fast as I could have years ago. It is two different things. Hamas ruled Gaza: Hamas attacked Israel and started this war. I know half the people here are Hamas sympathetic unsympathetic to Israel, but I am not. Have a good night. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 8 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said: To Israel? what are you talking about? EDIT: Wait, I think you mean the saudi's owe america land cuz of 911? The terrorists were individuals NOT a government in charge of the Strip, as it were. Sorry I didn't put it together as fast as I could have years ago. It is two different things. Hamas ruled Gaza: Hamas attacked Israel and started this war. I know half the people here are Hamas sympathetic, but I am not. Have a good night. I am not sympathetic to Hamas at all. I have made that abundantly clear. Do you really believe that half the people in this thread are sympathetic to people who butchered other people ? That people like @Gurn and @Warhippy for example, people who argue for the rights of Palestinian people actually support the actions of terrorists ? Hamas is not a proper government as you and many others are the first to point out. They have been designated as a terrorist organisation by your government, mine and many others. Again what I am hearing is justification for Israel taking more land from the Palestinians. In regards to hippies post a few hours ago, doesn't a lot of that Israeli right wing rhetoric sound close to ethnic cleansing. " We Conquer, we destroy, we settle " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 23 minutes ago, Ilunga said: I am not sympathetic to Hamas at all. I have made that abundantly clear. Do you really believe that half the people in this thread are sympathetic to people who butchered other people ? That people like @Gurn and @Warhippy for example, people who argue for the rights of Palestinian people actually support the actions of terrorists ? Hamas is not a proper government as you and many others are the first to point out. They have been designated as a terrorist organisation by your government, mine and many others. Again what I am hearing is justification for Israel taking more land from the Palestinians. In regards to hippies post a few hours ago, doesn't a lot of that Israeli right wing rhetoric sound close to ethnic cleansing. " We Conquer, we destroy, we settle " I am just not interested in arguing with you dude, have a good night. If it helps, sorry for saying Israel may take some of Gaza. how dare i state the obvious. I fixed my post above. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said: I am just not interested in arguing with you dude, have a good night. If it helps, sorry for saying Israel may take some of Gaza. how dare i state the obvious. I fixed my post above. You don't have to be sorry for your opinion, I value it. I just don't think it's right that the Palestinians keep losing land. They are becoming either displaced or living mostly under occupied conditions. This is not how I would want to live. Ergo I would not want to treat others this way. If the shoe was on the Israeli foot, I would be arguing for them. I already have, stating they have the right to self determination and to live in a free and just society. Edit Thank you, it is a beautiful mild summer day here in the hills. I see it's 9 degrees in Vancouver now, that's reasonable mild for this time of year, at this time of night. I hope you are enjoying those conditions. Edited February 1 by Ilunga 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 F=Good on Canada for cancelling UNRWA funding! Even better, almost immediately finding an alternate way of helping! 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 Existential for Israel, dangerous & difficult in many ways; simply a larger clash of cultures? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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