Bob Long Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 7 hours ago, Super19 said: Stolen according to who? Zionists believe it's their God-given right to be in that land, all of it - from the river to the sea. The Greater Israel movement is becoming more visible amongst the extremists. Forget about the Palestenains that were there for a good while tho eh? And if you can read between the lines, the Zionists are kicking em out or killing em, which the US is against but the US isn't doing much to stop this from happening. What about according to you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 7 hours ago, RomanPer said: I mentioned this before and I will say it again - why is it if someone is a Jew then his/her opinion immediately becomes some sort of beacon? What's funny, it's always the same "meshugene" Finkelstein, Sand, Neturei Karta - fringe voices that no one in Jewish community pays serious attention to. What's funny, if you look at the biography of both Finkelstein and Sand you find a lot in common - pro-communist, anti-Western from their birth. I will never take an opinion of a communist seriously. Especially someone who remained communist their entire lives with all the history of communism in this world. hey now, 'meshugene' are people too. Spoiler the majority on earth actually! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taxi Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 9 hours ago, Ilunga said: How much of Israel is stolen ? That's a question I have for the athiests in this thread. How much of the mythical religious text called the bible do you actually believe is true ? These are the thoughts of Shlomo Sand an Israeli historian https://mondediplo.com/2008/09/07israel " But during the 1980's an earthquake shook these founding myths. The discoveries made by the " new archaeology" discredited a great exodus in the 13th century BC. Moses could not have lead the out of Egypt into the promised land, for the good reason that the latter was Egyptian territory at that time. And there is no trace of a slave revolt against the Pharaonic empire or of a sudden conquest of Canaan by outsiders. Nor is there any trace or memory of the magnificent kingdom of David and Solomon. Recent discoveries point to the existence at the time, of two small kingdoms, Israel the more powerful, and Juda the future Judea. The general population of Judah did not go into 6th century BC exile. Only it's political and intellectual elite were forced to settle in Babylon. This decisive encounter with Persian religion gave birth to Jewish monotheism. " I used to point this out in the God Thread on the old board. It took this event for the Jews to finally accept the " god of Abraham" was their god. Their rationale was this exile was punishment for not believing in him. back to the article " Then there is the question of the exile in 70 AD. There has been no real research into this turning point in Jewish history, the cause of the diaspora. And for the simple reason. The Romans never exiled any nation from anywhere on the eastern seaboard of the Mediterranean. Apart from enslaved prisoners, the population of Judea continued to live on their lands, even after the destruction of the second temple. Some converted to Christianity in the 4th century, while the majority embraced Islam in the 7th century Arab conquest. Most Zionist thinkers were aware of this, Yitzhak Ben Zvi later president of Isreal and David Ben Gurion, it's first prime Minister, accepted it as late as 1929, the year of the great Palestinian revolt, both stated on several occasions that the peasants of Palestine were the descendants of the inhabitants of ancient Judea. " So, do we, you athiests in particular want to believe in a book of fables, myths and allegories ? Or do we believe in historical fact ? And for full disclosure Shlomo is another jew/Israeli that is ashamed of the actions of his country. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/10/shlomo-sand-i-wish-to-cease-considering-myself-a-jew Lol. Israel didn't "steal" anything. They either legally purchased the land, were awarded it via UN resolution, or gained it during a war. Here's a map of Jewish land ownership in the Mandate of Palestine prior to the establishment of Israel: Here' a map of the UN partition plan: Notice any similarities. Without the Nagev desert, which was uninhabitable, it's almost identical. The Arab armies then declared a war lost and then pushed out their own Jewish populations, creating a population exchange. And the Roman expulsion of Jews from Judea is well documented. The Romans kept very good records of everything they did. And although, you are correct, it didn't occur in 70 AD, it did occur in 135 AD, which was the date of the defeat of the Bar Koknba revolt. 70 AD was the first of 3 major Jewish revolts around that time, and it wasn't until the 3rd revolt that the Romans expelled the Jews and renamed the area Syria-Palestina, in order to insult the Jews by naming the territory after their ancient Greek rivals, the Philistines. 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 6 hours ago, RomanPer said: Bro, not only I read them, I had to memorize huge parts of it and write numerous essays on the content of both of them throughout my 10 years of school and 5 years of university. Answer me one question - name one country that chose Marx/Engels utopia and came anywhere close to it without trumping on the people. There are plenty utopian ideas around the world. They are all worthless without proper implementation. While communism might be a great idea, it's one of such utopias and when I say "communist" - I mean it in the worst possible context based on the real life realities. It's incredible that you are trying to tell me something about communism and life in the USSR The problem with peaceful utopia's is simply that they are unsustainable in the face of human nature. I wish I said animal nature, we are just animals with really well folded brains. This is my watering hole for me and those I may get to have intercourse with. if we can stop you from using it we will. ~every animal ever. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 1 minute ago, Optimist Prime said: The problem with peaceful utopia's is simply that they are unsustainable in the face of human nature. I wish I said animal nature, we are just animals with really well folded brains. This is my watering hole for me and those I may get to have intercourse with. if we can stop you from using it we will. ~every animal ever. Utopian ideas also create strange bedfellows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 2 hours ago, Bob Long said: What about according to you? I truly think this Zionist movement is extremist and do not understand why it's being supported. It doesn't allow for the coexistion of the people who are indigenous to the land. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 Take note how long it takes just to get past the 0yr olds. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 23 minutes ago, Super19 said: I truly think this Zionist movement is extremist and do not understand why it's being supported. It doesn't allow for the coexistion of the people who are indigenous to the land. I'm not asking you about Zionists. I'm asking you, how much of Israel do you think is stolen land? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 33 minutes ago, Bob Long said: I'm not asking you about Zionists. I'm asking you, how much of Israel do you think is stolen land? The illegal settlements in the West Bank are recognized as being stolen to which I agree. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 4 minutes ago, Super19 said: The illegal settlements in the West Bank are recognized as being stolen to which I agree. So the rest we can all recognize as legitimate Israeli territory? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Arrogant Worms Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 JUST IN: U.S. Begins Bombing Syria In Retaliation Against Iran-Backed Targets After Three Soldiers Killed https://www.mediaite.com/news/just-in-u-s-begins-bombing-syria-in-retaliation-against-iran-backed-targets-after-three-soldiers-killed/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurn Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 24 minutes ago, The Arrogant Worms said: JUST IN: U.S. Begins Bombing Syria In Retaliation Against Iran-Backed Targets After Three Soldiers Killed https://www.mediaite.com/news/just-in-u-s-begins-bombing-syria-in-retaliation-against-iran-backed-targets-after-three-soldiers-killed/ seems the U.S. didn't give all the war weapons to the Ukrainians after all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 20 minutes ago, Gurn said: seems the U.S. didn't give all the war weapons to the Ukrainians after all. the Iranian leaders need to get a black eye on their actions, its time they stopped dicking around with everyone in the region. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 3 hours ago, Bob Long said: So the rest we can all recognize as legitimate Israeli territory? Letter of the law, yes. Spirit of the law? Ideally, the state of Israel was a good thing. But then the Nakba happened. And then Zionism took over. And here we are now. Refer to the Al-Jazeera tweet and read the names of the children that extremism and Zionism killed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 25 minutes ago, Super19 said: Letter of the law, yes. Spirit of the law? Ideally, the state of Israel was a good thing. But then the Nakba happened. And then Zionism took over. And here we are now. Refer to the Al-Jazeera tweet and read the names of the children that extremism and Zionism killed. thanks for the response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 10 hours ago, D.B Cooper said: It’s pretty early and I just woke up, but are you trying to defend Marx and communism? Wtf? Hahaha I am defending those 5 ideas/ ideals Marx wrote about in his book the communist manifesto 1. People are equal 2. Every citizen has a job 3. There is an eternally stable economic system 4. Strong social communities are established 5. Efficient distribution of resources Sign me up. You have read The Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital ? If you have, you would know these are five of the major ideas he advocates for. Or do you find something wrong with those idea's ? How capatlism working out for us ? Go check the cost of living thread and the housing thread to see how people feel. Come over here to Aus and talk to my friends kids, some of whom not only, can only dream of owning a house, in some cases they can't afford to rent. Was taking to my plumber yesterday, he was telling me his daughter and her family are paying $800 a week in rent in Queensland. They are moving back home to live with him. They have already built a bungalow for his son to live in on his property. Good times......right ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 7 minutes ago, Ilunga said: I am defending those 5 ideas/ ideals Marx wrote about in his book the communist manifesto 1. People are equal 2. Every citizen has a job 3. There is an eternally stable economic system 4. Strong social communities are established 5. Efficient distribution of resources Sign me up. Show me where on earth this has actually worked: it can look good on paper all you like but it just has never worked out ever, anywhere. Shrug. garden of eden sounded great too, but that too just looks good in the story book that its written in. I like point 1. I like point 4. I like point 5 a lot. Point 3 is aspirational at best: this has never been a real on the ground aspect of any communist regime. Point 2 sounds like slavery. I don't want a job, I am happy right now and only have a side gig involving global affairs analysis and consulting, and I only take the work i really am interested in. As for folks in Australia paying 800 a week rent: Justin Trudeau REALLY SUCKS if he is also causing house rentals to soar in Australia.... okay that little bit was off topic but would fit great in the Canadian Politics thread right now. hehehe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 6 hours ago, Taxi said: Lol. Israel didn't "steal" anything. They either legally purchased the land, were awarded it via UN resolution, or gained it during a war. Here's a map of Jewish land ownership in the Mandate of Palestine prior to the establishment of Israel: Here' a map of the UN partition plan: Notice any similarities. Without the Nagev desert, which was uninhabitable, it's almost identical. The Arab armies then declared a war lost and then pushed out their own Jewish populations, creating a population exchange. And the Roman expulsion of Jews from Judea is well documented. The Romans kept very good records of everything they did. And although, you are correct, it didn't occur in 70 AD, it did occur in 135 AD, which was the date of the defeat of the Bar Koknba revolt. 70 AD was the first of 3 major Jewish revolts around that time, and it wasn't until the 3rd revolt that the Romans expelled the Jews and renamed the area Syria-Palestina, in order to insult the Jews by naming the territory after their ancient Greek rivals, the Philistines. For starters I am still waiting for you to admit you were wrong in accusing me of " mental gymnastics " in regards to claiming Jews had no historical ties to Israel. As I have already posted before you made that claim, I stated that Solomon built the first temple in 957BC. In many of my posts I state that Jews have had a long connection to the place that is called Isreal, Gaza, and the occupied territories. An apology would be nice to. As for Isreal didn't steal anything, they have been, and are doing it right now. I know you have no respect for international law or the international community, however the international community, including Israel's best friend states, and your and my societies state the Israeli settlements on the west bank are illegal under international law https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-israel-west-bank-reverse-1.6894361 https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/02/middleeast/who-are-israeli-settlers-palestinian-land-intl/index.html And not only that, how about addressing the fact that 374 Palestinians have been killed in the west bank including 94 children " Settler violence in the west bank has also jumped sharply since the war began, with settlers burning cars, destroying infrastructure and assaulting and killing Palestinians " Do you, or anyone else want to confront this issue, or will the Hypocrisy continue. Calling out the Palestinians for their acts of violence but ignoring the acts of violence Israelis commit. As for these Roman records, I am always willing to learn more, knowledge is a precious thing. Can you provide them ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 10 minutes ago, Ilunga said: " Settler violence in the west bank has also jumped sharply since the war began, with settlers burning cars, destroying infrastructure and assaulting and killing Palestinians " I read all about that too. Lawlessness: needs to be quashed fast. I am glad the Trudeau Government is sanctioning settlers where specific cases end up being illegal settler activity. I am not sure anyone here agrees with illegal settler activity, for me though, I don't find it excuses murderous jihadi behaviour from Gaza. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-mulls-sanctions-israeli-settlers-1.7103319 Quote "We are looking at sanctions on extremist settlers," Trudeau told reporters Friday after an unrelated announcement in Waterloo, Ont., where he offered no update on a Canadian missing in the Gaza Strip. "Settler violence in the West Bank is absolutely unacceptable and puts at risk peace (and) stability in the region, and the path toward the two-state solution that is absolutely essential." It is something that takes a bit of time and study, acting rashly about things we can't effect immediately is a bad course of action. A weighed, learned response can be incredibly potent however and the Canadian Government is taking that approach. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 19 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said: Show me where on earth this has actually worked: it can look good on paper all you like but it just has never worked out ever, anywhere. Shrug. garden of eden sounded great too, but that too just looks good in the story book that its written in. I like point 1. I like point 4. I like point 5 a lot. Point 3 is aspirational at best: this has never been a real on the ground aspect of any communist regime. Point 2 sounds like slavery. I don't want a job, I am happy right now and only have a side gig involving global affairs analysis and consulting, and I only take the work i really am interested in. As for folks in Australia paying 800 a week rent: Justin Trudeau REALLY SUCKS if he is also causing house rentals to soar in Australia.... okay that little bit was off topic but would fit great in the Canadian Politics thread right now. hehehe. Like fuck me side ways.... How many times do I have to state that just because something hasn't worked yet, why shouldn't we strive to live up to those ideals. Not everyone lives up to my ideal of treating others the way they want to be treated. Does this mean I should give up on my ideals ? Is it wrong of me to believe that everyone should be equal ? That everyone should have a job. There is an eternally stable economic system. That we can have strong social communities. That there is effecient distribution of resources. These are fantastic ideas that should be implemented. I am getting the Senator Joe McCarthy vibes here. Waiting for the witch hunt. Jesus ! There's reds under me fuckin bed ! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 1 minute ago, Ilunga said: Like fuck me side ways.... How many times do I have to state that just because something hasn't worked yet, why shouldn't we strive to live up to those ideals. Not everyone lives up to my ideal of treating others the way they want to be treated. Does this mean I should give up on my ideals ? Is it wrong of me to believe that everyone should be equal ? That everyone should have a job. There is an eternally stable economic system. That we can have strong social communities. That there is effecient distribution of resources. These are fantastic ideas that should be implemented. I am getting the Senator Joe McCarthy vibes here. Waiting for the witch hunt. Jesus ! There's reds under me fuckin bed ! hehehe. Nah, I am just stating that humanity has asked and answered the question of 'can communism work in such a way as to protect every member of a given society?' and the answer has been a resounding NO. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 7 minutes ago, Ilunga said: There's reds under me fuckin bed ! I could hear the Aussie in your voice when you typed that...made me wanna hear Kevin Bloody Wilson again... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.B Cooper Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 36 minutes ago, Ilunga said: I am defending those 5 ideas/ ideals Marx wrote about in his book the communist manifesto 1. People are equal Are their contributions viewed as equal? Obviously as people, in my eyes, we are all equal. Do we all provide the same value to society? Absolutely not. With my skills, education and experience that earn me a great wage today, does that get me the same amount of wealth as some lazy fuck who knows and provides nothing? Does the doctor who provide more than me to society and has spent even more time than me in school make the same as me? 36 minutes ago, Ilunga said: 2. Every citizen has a job Good luck 36 minutes ago, Ilunga said: 3. There is an eternally stable economic system Would be nice. 36 minutes ago, Ilunga said: 4. Strong social communities are established We have that now. 36 minutes ago, Ilunga said: 5. Efficient distribution of resources Would be nice. 36 minutes ago, Ilunga said: Sign me up. You have read The Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital ? If you have, you would know these are five of the major ideas he advocates for. I know of it. Im not a fan of the theory of communism, and history/people who lived it, tells me it enough to know I’m not going to waste my time reading it. It’s been tried and failed, is failing. 36 minutes ago, Ilunga said: Or do you find something wrong with those idea's ? How capatlism working out for us ? Decent for me. How about you? Hahahah Ive worked my bag off, studied hard and put in insane amounts of effort and sacrifice. Same as my wife. As a result, we are doing pretty great. We both came from poor ass families, now we own one large company and run another. Can’t complain at all. 36 minutes ago, Ilunga said: Go check the cost of living thread and the housing thread to see how people feel. I live in the lower mainland BC. I know the struggle plenty well. 36 minutes ago, Ilunga said: Come over here to Aus and talk to my friends kids, some of whom not only, can only dream of owning a house, in some cases they can't afford to rent. Was taking to my plumber yesterday, he was telling me his daughter and her family are paying $800 a week in rent in Queensland. They are moving back home to live with him. We have the same struggle here. 36 minutes ago, Ilunga said: They have already built a bungalow for his son to live in on his property. Pretty lucky to have the extra property and money to build his kid a bungalow. 36 minutes ago, Ilunga said: Good times......right ? No, but communism isn’t the answer. Hahahah No matter what we are going to have a government who steals our money and blow it on shit we don’t agree with. BUT Id much rather have the ability to really go for it and get myself ahead instead of being held back by the rest of society 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 4 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said: I read all about that too. Lawlessness: needs to be quashed fast. I am glad the Trudeau Government is sanctioning settlers where specific cases end up being illegal settler activity. I am not sure anyone here agrees with illegal settler activity, for me though, I don't find it excuses murderous jihadi behaviour from Gaza. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-mulls-sanctions-israeli-settlers-1.7103319 It is something that takes a bit of time and study, acting rashly about things we can't effect immediately is a bad course of action. A weighed, learned response can be incredibly potent however and the Canadian Government is taking that approach. A measured response is a really fantastic thing. And no violence does not justify violence in return. Do you believe killing 10,000 kids and destroying 50-60-70 percent of Gaza is a measured response to the October 7th attack ? Many amongst international community do not believe this to be the case. And do you see the pattern here, you state that illegal settler violence dies not justify jihadi behaviour. I am in total agreement. Does the killing of 1200 people, justify killing over 10,000 kids, thousands of women and literally destroying a society in regards to infrastructure and homes ? Being an amateur historian, I know his this will be viewed in 50- 100 years time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 10 minutes ago, Ilunga said: Like fuck me side ways.... How many times do I have to state that just because something hasn't worked yet, why shouldn't we strive to live up to those ideals. Not everyone lives up to my ideal of treating others the way they want to be treated. Does this mean I should give up on my ideals ? Is it wrong of me to believe that everyone should be equal ? That everyone should have a job. There is an eternally stable economic system. That we can have strong social communities. That there is effecient distribution of resources. These are fantastic ideas that should be implemented. I am getting the Senator Joe McCarthy vibes here. Waiting for the witch hunt. Jesus ! There's reds under me fuckin bed ! I think lots of people liked Stsr Trek (TOS) because there was a future where the utopian ideals for earth were present. But, of course, there was violence and aggression off planet. We are a savage beast. 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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