Optimist Prime Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 Canada sanctions Hamas leaders This is the first time Canada has imposed individual sanctions on non-state actors 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 33 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said: Canada sanctions Hamas leaders This is the first time Canada has imposed individual sanctions on non-state actors Source and full statement: https://www.canada.ca/en/global-affairs/news/2024/02/canada-sanctions-individuals-affiliated-with-hamas-in-response-to-terrorist-attacks-against-israel.html 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 This is less about Israeli gains than discussions. Does discuss the potential for a catastrophe as remaining Hamas battalions are stuck / mixed with 1,000,000 refugee's in Rafa. A practical statement, not one suggesting they are now using public as a shield. Just the reality where everyone has been pushed. Sinwar analysis inset; he won't trade hostages for even 'complete' ceasefire. He wants a victory. To survive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 12 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said: Still true. There are other factors, but true. As you present it. These people, Palestinians, still have to decide they want peace more than continuing conflict! Especially, fair or logically otherwise, because a military disadvantage is part of the equation? Part, yet compounding opinion is against Israel at this moment. Extensively. If Hamas throws down their arms, Israel cannot keep attacking? It will have no standing, no place in the world! Hamas should not let themselves & their civilians get crushed. They did renounce violence, the Palestinians, and Isreal broke their side of the promise and kept taking land. No standing in the world ? With not only international organisations stating Israel is an arpartheid state but many Isrealis themselves. Combined the with the illegal settlements that the international community also condemns, If this was any other state/ nation, they would have had sanctions applied years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 4 hours ago, Super19 said: Source and full statement: https://www.canada.ca/en/global-affairs/news/2024/02/canada-sanctions-individuals-affiliated-with-hamas-in-response-to-terrorist-attacks-against-israel.html Hamas listed as a terrorist group by Canada since 2002. I guess Langara didn't get the message. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 19 minutes ago, Bob Long said: Hamas listed as a terrorist group by Canada since 2002. I guess Langara didn't get the message. How does that message apply to Langara? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 6 minutes ago, Super19 said: How does that message apply to Langara? Recognition of terrorist groups. Btw, still waiting for your views on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 1 hour ago, Bob Long said: Recognition of terrorist groups. Btw, still waiting for your views on that. Meta permanently banned Shaun King for his views/coverage of Hamas-Palestine-Israel. He got thrown off the rooftop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 7 minutes ago, Super19 said: Meta permanently banned Shaun King for his views/coverage of Hamas-Palestine-Israel. He got thrown off the rooftop. Just can't do it, huh? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 8 minutes ago, Bob Long said: Just can't do it, huh? Idk man, do you want me to get thrown off a rooftop? Lol. That professor said "the amazing, brilliant offensive on Oct 7" referring to Hamas. I feel her tone was bad - those are not words you say describing an operation that's led to atrocities on Oct 7 in Israel and Oct 8 onwards in Gaza. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 6 minutes ago, Super19 said: Idk man, do you want me to get thrown off a rooftop? Lol. That professor said "the amazing, brilliant offensive on Oct 7" referring to Hamas. I feel her tone was bad - those are not words you say describing an operation that's led to atrocities on Oct 7 in Israel and Oct 8 onwards in Gaza. No I certainly don't want that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 On 2/7/2024 at 12:50 PM, Ilunga said: They did renounce violence, the Palestinians, and Isreal broke their side of the promise and kept taking land. No standing in the world ? With not only international organisations stating Israel is an arpartheid state but many Isrealis themselves. Combined the with the illegal settlements that the international community also condemns, If this was any other state/ nation, they would have had sanctions applied years ago. That's true but not a complete story? Israel recognized Palestinian rights to a state, PLO israel's right to exist. To create self governance under the PLO. You are referring to 1993 Oslo Accords? Part one of my reply. The accords set the framework for Palestinian elections, and the PA was given a five-year lifespan. But the provisional government still exists today, circumseeded by 'elections' 20 years later in 2006; plagued by allegations of corruption and police brutality. By the PLO against Palestinians, not by Israeli's. ie The Palestinian side was inset by internal violence and power struggles which led to the emergence of Hamas. Whom never accepted Oslo, nor the PLO/PA/Fatah as leaders. Not that I blame them, Israel their land theft accepted, themselves notwithstanding? Arafat, who was corrupt, accepted conditions garnering economic conditions that made him & his leadership team incredibly wealthy. Hence willing to settle & ask their people to do so. Yet he slowly but surely lost what control he had over Palestinian masses; more importantly the young militants who helped control their streets. Since when has a militant leader, dictator or otherwise, ever transitioned to peaceful democratic rule? Check out the profile of Mohammed Deif, since 1995, to this day Israelis most wanted man. Even ahead of Yahya Sinwar which is saying something! He was one of the gilding forces to introduce & still the head of Hamas militant arm al-Qassam brigades since 1991. He learned bomb making & was active in the period before, and just after the Oslo accord & was arrested after the first Intifada; released to continue his terror work, you guessed it, in a prisoner exchange. He was involved in suicide bombings in Israel & Gaza in 1993. Then, as a means protest for agreement & specifically to interrupt the peace process with Israel by Arafat, led the 1994 hostage taking of Israeli soldiers. Which led to their deaths in a storming attempt by the IDF to rescue them. Also involved in the infamous 1996 Jaffa Road bus bombing which killed 45 people. Hamas was effectively, the youth wave of insurgency that the PLO was in 1965, 1968 & 1972. Arafat had no business making that deal! Rabin & Jimmy Carter to sign it! 27 years later, 30 after Oslo Deif remains the single most prominent planner of Oct 7th attacks. You bet, Israel had broke agreements, they were never actually in place with Palestinians who yielded the most control at the time of Oslo. From what I have read more than 1000 instances of rocket launches, suicide bombings, violent protests & hostage events against Israel. More attacks against the PA, PLO! Sinwar his Lieutenant controlling muscle, assassination against internal Palestinian competitors of Hamas. If you think Palestinians had committed to peace; you are sadly mistaken! Ink was minutes old on Oslo before violence resumed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 Part two of my reply; with apology to @Optimist Prime, is again historical. In todays world; UNRWA still has been serving the legacy refugee's of the 1948 war lost by, Palestinians among who call themselves owners of Israel, the conglomerate of Arabic organizations that set out to annihilate Israel when it was formed. You can even go back to the Balfour declaration of 1917 (?)? Where Israel was promised a state. Presumably agreements from a year earlier broken between 'Palestinian' and British leadership. The reality is Israel was than 3 times larger in 1949 than they were on inception because they won that war of independence. Those refugee's & camps, have become cities & townships. And yes Israel has kept grabbing land. Yet those refugee camps in 1950 and 1966 were parts of Jordan and Egypt when it came to West Bank & Gaza. Jordan & Egypt wanted NO PART of the militant groups who were refugees. Who did not want, realistically were not part of the closer knit ethnic groups to be part of those nations. Palestinians did not come to agreement with other Arab groups over their right to self determination in the territories they contest now. Nobody gave a sh!t about Palestinians then, or now. Arabic groups would have preferred refugee camps dispersed, and were not their responsibility. Jordan slaughtered many to get rid of, and disperse them in 1972! It is incredibly important to recognize that the Saudi Kingdom, Iraq, Syria, Jordan & Lebanon were all formed in the same time frame as Israel was formed. The years just preceding or following. Its also important to recognize that other Arab groups consolidated as countries between 1948 & 1967; Libya, Morocco, Tunisia & others. Each had been part of the group that had attacked Israel in 1948. Non Arab groups took over places like Iran, consolidated Pakistan, Turkey, the Caucasus, lost or never found power in homelands such as Kurdistan, Armenia. Just as the landscape for populations of over 50,000,000 people were re-written during after WWII. Those Arabic groups attacked Israel in 1948 not to help Palestinians, but to claim these historical lands for their own fiefdoms & feudal kingdoms that were re-forming. Also helped ''the Nakba'' because they fully intended to be opportunistic themselves. Israel to them, was designed to be Arabic, or Shia, just not Palestinian. TO THIS DAY, Hamas, Hezbollah & others are armed by groups less interested in Palestinian birth? Than their own opportunity to ultimately gain controls. To be fair, I don't hold against groups accepting arms, in hopes of forging their own nation. Yet it's stupid geo politics. Just as it was in 1949, 1968 & 2023. At this moment Iran, for example, does not hold the power to help Hamas or other Palestinian power groups wipe out Israel. Muhammed Dief, nor Sinwar can deliver Israel to the Palestinian people militarily. Yet their people deserve peace. The Oslo accords themselves were worthless. Left the framework, as you mentioned for more land theft. Which Israel did greedily keep conducting. Yet what are Palestinian options? In 80 years they have not been able to build the military power to win by war. In spite of Bibi & Gallant. Someone Palestinian should say to the UN, Qatar, Israel, the US. We will renounce Hamas if we can have our nation in Gaza, the West Bank, East Jerusalem! We will invite investment by, reparation building by Israel. In my world, which won't be considered, multicultural immigration to the West Bank minimum. Which can create a buffer to Israeli, but also Arabic groups. Create heritage zones and access to all heritage & sites important to different faiths. Bethlehem, the Dead Sea, the West Wall AND Al Aqsa patrolled by consortiums. Including Christian, various Arabic & Muslim Groups, Orthodox & Jewish groups, the UN, Perhaps UAE, Qatar or Saudi's. This is unlikely, as Palestinians want greater control over the Muslim sites; its just my own take that this is possibly a win for the Worlds faiths. Pilgrimages' and centers for faith protected. If Muslims could be guaranteed access to Al Aqsa, Jews to the West Wall, Christians & other faiths? Investment internationally that could rebuild what could be one of the World's great religious centers. Ok this last paragraph is dreaming. Yet Palestinian options should not include trying to win wars they are destined to lose. Should include acceptance of Jewish & other groups. As international support, peacekeeping at least for a start, is the short term alternative to Jewish settlements or IDF occupied territories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 It has not been Israel, solely anyway, holding back Palestine. It has been the Arab world, and Palestinians themselves also. Who first need to accept Peace on faith. Establish what is their entity, not just entitlement. I believe the world will grant it, fight for it for them if they ask. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 And just to keep or stoke the fires of discussion going? https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1997/04/04/arafat-killed-oslo/bad28d70-60f4-49ab-af6e-708bd94d933d/ ARAFAT KILLED OSLO Spoiler Oslo. One can hardly open a newspaper without reading about the Oslo peace accords between Israel and the Palestinians, and how Israel's violation of this or that provision has led to the current impasse and violence. But the "Oslo" you read about has become surreal, entirely disconnected from the documents actually signed by Yasser Arafat and Israeli leaders. Take for example Israel's building Jewish housing on Har Homa in East Jerusalem. This is routinely cited as a violation of Oslo. The real Oslo, however, is very explicit in treating Jerusalem as a separate entity from the West Bank and Gaza. Strict rules govern what can and cannot be done in the West Bank and Gaza. But nothing of the sort applies to Jerusalem. For good reason. No Israeli government would ever have signed an agreement that prohibited it from housing Jews anywhere in Jerusalem. Indeed, Jewish housing was built in East Jerusalem throughout Yitzhak Rabin's stewardship of the Oslo process. Shimon Peres himself stated unequivocally that "there are no limits on building in the Jerusalem area." In the fictional "Oslo" created by Arafat, however, he has a veto over where Jews may live in Jerusalem. Has anyone who parrots this claim actually read the Oslo accords? Or consider the three West Bank "redeployments" that Israel promised in the Hebron agreement (the third pact under the Oslo process). On March 7, in strict accord with Hebron and exactly on schedule, Netanyahu announced a withdrawal from 9.1 percent of West Bank territory. Arafat went ballistic, declaring himself -- and Oslo -- betrayed because he didn't get 30 percent. The Western press meekly echoed the charge. Some journalists even appeared to validate it. NBC's Andrea Mitchell, for example, offered this on the Diane Rehm show: "The counter-argument {to charges of Palestinian violation of Oslo} would be that the Israelis were not living up to the Oslo accords because they did not withdraw adequately in this most recent withdraw\al." There is no such counter-argument. There is nothing in Oslo, nothing in the Hebron agreement, nothing anywhere that says anything about the adequacy of 9 percent or 30 percent or any percent. In fact, the official U.S. notes that explain and govern the Hebron agreement state clearly that the extent of the withdrawal is to be left entirely up to Israel. When Netanyahu announced the 9 percent withdrawal, the State Department deemed it "a serious expansion of Palestinian authority" and "a demonstration of Israel's commitment to the peace process." Where did the 30 percent come from? Arafat made it up. How did he get this number? Easy. Remember, Israel has pledged to make three withdrawals from the West Bank before fi\nal-status negotiations -- over Jerusalem, refugees, borders, a final peace treaty -- are completed. Do the math. Arafat figures that if he gets 30 percent in each of the three withdrawals, he's got 90 percent. Add that to what he already has now, and he pockets effectively all of the West Bank and Gaza before he negotiates the most delicate issues dear to Isra\el's heart, such as Jerusalem. Clever. Make Israel give up all of its territorial chits and all its bargaining leverage before final negotiations. Obviously, Arafat would like that. But Arafat's wanting something does not make it "Oslo." Share this articleShare Other parts of Oslo are extremely explicit. Oslo clearly requires the renunciation of violence. Oslo II, Article XV: "Both sides shall take all measures necessary in order to prevent acts of terrorism, crime and hostilities directed against each other." Yet Arafat's aides admit that his own Fatah faction organized the anti-Israel rioting of the last 14 days. Oslo is equally unequivocal that the PLO must change its charter, which calls for the destruction of Israel. In 3 1/2 years, Arafat has not done that. Indeed, when last questioned about it, he retorted he would do it when Israel adopted a constitution. (Israel, like Britain, has only an unwritten constitution.) Translation: Go jump in the lake. Oslo is dead. Arafat's disdain for it has rendered it useless. He contemptuously dismisses the obligations placed on him (e.g., the charter, nonviolence) while cynically ascribing invented obligations to Israel (e.g., the 30 percent). What to do? The point now is not to save Oslo, which is beyond saving, but to save the peace, which still has a chance. Netanyahu has suggested short-circuiting Oslo and beginning final status negotiations now. King Hussein is open to the idea. The United States is studying it. We should embrace it. If peace is to be had, we must go for it now. Oslo was meant to be an interim accord anyway. Trying to enforce it is a hopeless task. Rather than haggle over the terms of a losing proposition, let's cut to the final act. President Clinton should bring Arafat and Netanyahu to Camp David; lock 'em up, like Begin and Sadat; and not let them out until they produce not another Oslo, not another interim piece of paper, but the real deal: final status and final peace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 2 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said: That's true but not a complete story? Israel recognized Palestinian rights to a state, PLO israel's right to exist. To create self governance under the PLO. You are referring to 1993 Oslo Accords? Part one of my reply. The accords set the framework for Palestinian elections, and the PA was given a five-year lifespan. But the provisional government still exists today, circumseeded by 'elections' 20 years later in 2006; plagued by allegations of corruption and police brutality. By the PLO against Palestinians, not by Israeli's. ie The Palestinian side was inset by internal violence and power struggles which led to the emergence of Hamas. Whom never accepted Oslo, nor the PLO/PA/Fatah as leaders. Not that I blame them, Israel their land theft accepted, themselves notwithstanding? Arafat, who was corrupt, accepted conditions garnering economic conditions that made him & his leadership team incredibly wealthy. Hence willing to settle & ask their people to do so. Yet he slowly but surely lost what control he had over Palestinian masses; more importantly the young militants who helped control their streets. Since when has a militant leader, dictator or otherwise, ever transitioned to peaceful democratic rule? Check out the profile of Mohammed Deif, since 1995, to this day Israelis most wanted man. Even ahead of Yahya Sinwar which is saying something! He was one of the gilding forces to introduce & still the head of Hamas militant arm al-Qassam brigades since 1991. He learned bomb making & was active in the period before, and just after the Oslo accord & was arrested after the first Intifada; released to continue his terror work, you guessed it, in a prisoner exchange. He was involved in suicide bombings in Israel & Gaza in 1993. Then, as a means protest for agreement & specifically to interrupt the peace process with Israel by Arafat, led the 1994 hostage taking of Israeli soldiers. Which led to their deaths in a storming attempt by the IDF to rescue them. Also involved in the infamous 1996 Jaffa Road bus bombing which killed 45 people. Hamas was effectively, the youth wave of insurgency that the PLO was in 1965, 1968 & 1972. Arafat had no business making that deal! Rabin & Jimmy Carter to sign it! 27 years later, 30 after Oslo Deif remains the single most prominent planner of Oct 7th attacks. You bet, Israel had broke agreements, they were never actually in place with Palestinians who yielded the most control at the time of Oslo. From what I have read more than 1000 instances of rocket launches, suicide bombings, violent protests & hostage events against Israel. More attacks against the PA, PLO! Sinwar his Lieutenant controlling muscle, assassination against internal Palestinian competitors of Hamas. If you think Palestinians had committed to peace; you are sadly mistaken! Ink was minutes old on Oslo before violence resumed. I was in my car about 200–300 meters behind that scene… 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 2 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said: That's true but not a complete story? Israel recognized Palestinian rights to a state, PLO israel's right to exist. To create self governance under the PLO. You are referring to 1993 Oslo Accords? Part one of my reply. The accords set the framework for Palestinian elections, and the PA was given a five-year lifespan. But the provisional government still exists today, circumseeded by 'elections' 20 years later in 2006; plagued by allegations of corruption and police brutality. By the PLO against Palestinians, not by Israeli's. ie The Palestinian side was inset by internal violence and power struggles which led to the emergence of Hamas. Whom never accepted Oslo, nor the PLO/PA/Fatah as leaders. Not that I blame them, Israel their land theft accepted, themselves notwithstanding? Arafat, who was corrupt, accepted conditions garnering economic conditions that made him & his leadership team incredibly wealthy. Hence willing to settle & ask their people to do so. Yet he slowly but surely lost what control he had over Palestinian masses; more importantly the young militants who helped control their streets. Since when has a militant leader, dictator or otherwise, ever transitioned to peaceful democratic rule? Check out the profile of Mohammed Deif, since 1995, to this day Israelis most wanted man. Even ahead of Yahya Sinwar which is saying something! He was one of the gilding forces to introduce & still the head of Hamas militant arm al-Qassam brigades since 1991. He learned bomb making & was active in the period before, and just after the Oslo accord & was arrested after the first Intifada; released to continue his terror work, you guessed it, in a prisoner exchange. He was involved in suicide bombings in Israel & Gaza in 1993. Then, as a means protest for agreement & specifically to interrupt the peace process with Israel by Arafat, led the 1994 hostage taking of Israeli soldiers. Which led to their deaths in a storming attempt by the IDF to rescue them. Also involved in the infamous 1996 Jaffa Road bus bombing which killed 45 people. Hamas was effectively, the youth wave of insurgency that the PLO was in 1965, 1968 & 1972. Arafat had no business making that deal! Rabin & Jimmy Carter to sign it! 27 years later, 30 after Oslo Deif remains the single most prominent planner of Oct 7th attacks. You bet, Israel had broke agreements, they were never actually in place with Palestinians who yielded the most control at the time of Oslo. From what I have read more than 1000 instances of rocket launches, suicide bombings, violent protests & hostage events against Israel. More attacks against the PA, PLO! Sinwar his Lieutenant controlling muscle, assassination against internal Palestinian competitors of Hamas. If you think Palestinians had committed to peace; you are sadly mistaken! Ink was minutes old on Oslo before violence resumed. Sigh.... The Palestinians under Arafat tried to hold to account some of the extremists that broke their side of the deal. The Isrealis kept taking land, they have been since 1967 in the then occupied territories and in the west bank and east Jerusalem since. I have already posted the evidence of this. You do know that the international community has condemned the Isreali illegal settlements in the west bank since 1967, calling them the biggest impediment to peace. This video about the illegal Israeli settlements is 7 years old, the figure of 400,000 settlers has almost doubled since then to 700,000 " This is a really nice place to live, that's why we came"( stole others people land)" here." I reckon BC is pretty nice place to live, maybe I should grab a bunch of like minded mates and go settle there. As I keep stating, stop taking land and give it back, let Palestinians have what Israel has , a nation/ state, and there is a good chance those rockets and attacks will stop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 1 hour ago, Canuck Surfer said: And just to keep or stoke the fires of discussion going? https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1997/04/04/arafat-killed-oslo/bad28d70-60f4-49ab-af6e-708bd94d933d/ ARAFAT KILLED OSLO Hide contents Oslo. One can hardly open a newspaper without reading about the Oslo peace accords between Israel and the Palestinians, and how Israel's violation of this or that provision has led to the current impasse and violence. But the "Oslo" you read about has become surreal, entirely disconnected from the documents actually signed by Yasser Arafat and Israeli leaders. Take for example Israel's building Jewish housing on Har Homa in East Jerusalem. This is routinely cited as a violation of Oslo. The real Oslo, however, is very explicit in treating Jerusalem as a separate entity from the West Bank and Gaza. Strict rules govern what can and cannot be done in the West Bank and Gaza. But nothing of the sort applies to Jerusalem. For good reason. No Israeli government would ever have signed an agreement that prohibited it from housing Jews anywhere in Jerusalem. Indeed, Jewish housing was built in East Jerusalem throughout Yitzhak Rabin's stewardship of the Oslo process. Shimon Peres himself stated unequivocally that "there are no limits on building in the Jerusalem area." In the fictional "Oslo" created by Arafat, however, he has a veto over where Jews may live in Jerusalem. Has anyone who parrots this claim actually read the Oslo accords? Or consider the three West Bank "redeployments" that Israel promised in the Hebron agreement (the third pact under the Oslo process). On March 7, in strict accord with Hebron and exactly on schedule, Netanyahu announced a withdrawal from 9.1 percent of West Bank territory. Arafat went ballistic, declaring himself -- and Oslo -- betrayed because he didn't get 30 percent. The Western press meekly echoed the charge. Some journalists even appeared to validate it. NBC's Andrea Mitchell, for example, offered this on the Diane Rehm show: "The counter-argument {to charges of Palestinian violation of Oslo} would be that the Israelis were not living up to the Oslo accords because they did not withdraw adequately in this most recent withdraw\al." There is no such counter-argument. There is nothing in Oslo, nothing in the Hebron agreement, nothing anywhere that says anything about the adequacy of 9 percent or 30 percent or any percent. In fact, the official U.S. notes that explain and govern the Hebron agreement state clearly that the extent of the withdrawal is to be left entirely up to Israel. When Netanyahu announced the 9 percent withdrawal, the State Department deemed it "a serious expansion of Palestinian authority" and "a demonstration of Israel's commitment to the peace process." Where did the 30 percent come from? Arafat made it up. How did he get this number? Easy. Remember, Israel has pledged to make three withdrawals from the West Bank before fi\nal-status negotiations -- over Jerusalem, refugees, borders, a final peace treaty -- are completed. Do the math. Arafat figures that if he gets 30 percent in each of the three withdrawals, he's got 90 percent. Add that to what he already has now, and he pockets effectively all of the West Bank and Gaza before he negotiates the most delicate issues dear to Isra\el's heart, such as Jerusalem. Clever. Make Israel give up all of its territorial chits and all its bargaining leverage before final negotiations. Obviously, Arafat would like that. But Arafat's wanting something does not make it "Oslo." Share this articleShare Other parts of Oslo are extremely explicit. Oslo clearly requires the renunciation of violence. Oslo II, Article XV: "Both sides shall take all measures necessary in order to prevent acts of terrorism, crime and hostilities directed against each other." Yet Arafat's aides admit that his own Fatah faction organized the anti-Israel rioting of the last 14 days. Oslo is equally unequivocal that the PLO must change its charter, which calls for the destruction of Israel. In 3 1/2 years, Arafat has not done that. Indeed, when last questioned about it, he retorted he would do it when Israel adopted a constitution. (Israel, like Britain, has only an unwritten constitution.) Translation: Go jump in the lake. Oslo is dead. Arafat's disdain for it has rendered it useless. He contemptuously dismisses the obligations placed on him (e.g., the charter, nonviolence) while cynically ascribing invented obligations to Israel (e.g., the 30 percent). What to do? The point now is not to save Oslo, which is beyond saving, but to save the peace, which still has a chance. Netanyahu has suggested short-circuiting Oslo and beginning final status negotiations now. King Hussein is open to the idea. The United States is studying it. We should embrace it. If peace is to be had, we must go for it now. Oslo was meant to be an interim accord anyway. Trying to enforce it is a hopeless task. Rather than haggle over the terms of a losing proposition, let's cut to the final act. President Clinton should bring Arafat and Netanyahu to Camp David; lock 'em up, like Begin and Sadat; and not let them out until they produce not another Oslo, not another interim piece of paper, but the real deal: final status and final peace. So a Washington Post " opinion " piece. Got some actual facts to back that up ? I have " the encyclopaedia " Britianica a very well respected source that only deals with facts. https://www.britannica.com/topic/Oslo-Accords Another very respected source in regards to investigative Journalism PBS Frontline https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/timeline-israeli-palestinian-peace-process-1993-oslo-accord/ Feb to March 1996 " Several weeks after Israel assassinates Hamas' chief bomb maker Hamas retaliates. Three suicide attacks in eight days leave 46 dead and hundreds wounded. Then, on March the 4th, a fourth suicide bomber himself, this time in a Tel Aviv mall. 13 people are killed and 157 more wounded. The dead are all under seventeen years old. Arafat orders his security forces to move against the Islamist militants and hundreds are arrested " September 24 1996 " In an area that is extremely sensitive to Muslims and Jews - where the Al Aqsa mosque sits on the temple mount above the western wall - Netanyahu changes the status quo and opens an ancient tunnel that runs along the wall. Netanyahu's security advisers had warned him against opening the tunnel fearing that the move was too provocative. " Palestinian radicals are quick to exploit the situation and organise demonstrations. The Israeli army fires upon the demonstrators and for the first time since the Oslo accords were signed, the Palestinian police force use their guns against the Israeli army. Netanyahu gives the order to move Israel's tanks into striking positions. The violence leaves 59 Palestinians and 16 Israelis dead. Hundreds more are wounded on both sides before Palestinian and Israeli security forces co-operate to bring the fighting to an end. " Those comments in regards to Jerusalem in that article March 18 1997 " Three weeks after Netanyahu gives the green light, constructions begin on a settlement on a contested hill near Jerusalem. Although Jewish settlements were not mentioned specifically in the Oslo accords, Rabin had promised that no additional ones would be built. Tensions are high. " March through September there are a number of suicide attacks Hundreds are wounded ,the article states 21 are killed. September 14 1997 " Netanyahu allows settlers to occupy houses within arab sections of Jerusalem once again changing the status quo. Palestinians demonstrating against settlers are joined by groups of Israelis who are opposed to Netanyahu's policies. " Parts of the article and the rest of that article after that deal with BS, violence and disagreements on both sides however it refutes that Washington Post opinion piece that it was Arafat that was to blame for the breakdown in the peace process. Both sides screwed the pooch. Kill and injure thousands of people over decades and you are called terrorists. Displace 700,000 people , and then go on to kill and injure thousandsof people and take their land, you are called nation builders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ilunga said: Sigh.... The Palestinians under Arafat tried to hold to account some of the extremists that broke their side of the deal. The Isrealis kept taking land, they have been since 1967 in the then occupied territories and in the west bank and east Jerusalem since. I have already posted the evidence of this. You do know that the international community has condemned the Isreali illegal settlements in the west bank since 1967, calling them the biggest impediment to peace. This video about the illegal Israeli settlements is 7 years old, the figure of 400,000 settlers has almost doubled since then to 700,000 " This is a really nice place to live, that's why we came"( stole others people land)" here." I reckon BC is pretty nice place to live, maybe I should grab a bunch of like minded mates and go settle there. As I keep stating, stop taking land and give it back, let Palestinians have what Israel has , a nation/ state, and there is a good chance those rockets and attacks will stop. Well Palestine is more likely to become Palestine without Israel? In our lifetime anyway. Than say, Kaliningrad & its capital Konigsburg be returned to Prussian (German) or Polish control. But that is dictators & superpowers economically. Hamas by comparison, is like one of a group of Mexican drug gangs or Cartels. I do believe Mexico will be at full civil war at some point? Such gangs becoming so powerful also like Hezbollah. Mexico may & probably will be at civil war as a result of such control over the streets & population? What dyu think are the chances such gangs are given Los Angalese, Texas, Florida back because it was once Spanish domain? Did you know control by Latin Americans, vis a' vie the Spanish empire once claimed most of the mid west, up to and including small parts of Saskatchewan & Alberta. The entire West Coast including all of what is now California, Oregon, Washington state & BRITISH COLUMBIA in its entirety? My point being I don't believe Palestinians can go back to 1948 and ask for territory. Right now, I don't believe the world will let Israel settle Gaza; but they are in danger of losing it based on the stupidity of attacking a force massively more powerful than themselves Oct 7. You can ask for land back. As early as next week, Sinwar may be dead, and chances for peace will be better! Not because either of us had anything to say about it... Edited February 8 by Canuck Surfer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 1 hour ago, Ilunga said: The Palestinians under Arafat Arafat was a crook, murderer & assassin. An Egyptian at birth, his life's mission the largest thief on the planet in our lifetime; until Putin. Not a Palestinian nobleman. Don't bother hitching any trailer up to his story. Its a dead end! Nor worry about being coerced by his charms. He fooled people smarter than any of us here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 4 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said: Well Palestine is more likely to become Palestine without Israel? In our lifetime anyway. Than say, Kaliningrad & its capital Konigsburg be returned to Prussian (German) or Polish control. But that is dictators & superpowers economically. Hamas by comparison, is one of a group of Mexican drug gangs. I do believe Mexico will be at full civil war at some point? Such gangs becoming so powerful also like Hezbollah. Mexico may & probably will be at civil war as a result of such control over the streets & population? What dyu think are the chances such gangs are given Los Angalese, Texas, Florida back because it was once Spanish domain? Did you know control by Latin Americans, vis a' vie the Spanish empire once claimed most of the mid west, up to and including small parts of Saskatchewan & Alberta. The entire West Coast including all of what is now California, Oregon, Washington state & BRITISH COLUMBIA in its entirety? My point being I don't believe Palestinians can go back to 1948 and ask for territory. Right now, I don't believe the world will let Israel settle Gaza; but they are in danger of losing it based on the stupidity of attacking a force massively more powerful than themselves Oct 7. You can ask for land back. As early as next week, Sinwar may be dead, and chances for peace will be better! Not because either of us had anything to say about it... For starters you are bringing up a time when we, the civilised world, didn't live in what we supposedly do now, a rules based order. You know the rules based order that our societies purport to ascribe to. I have already posted the " West's " hypocrisy in regards to that and the conflict we are discussing in this thread. https://www.chathamhouse.org/2024/01/will-war-gaza-become-breaking-point-rules-based-international-order As for America giving any land back to Mexico, PO1135809 and many top republicans want to invade Mexico https://www.vox.com/politics/2023/4/21/23686510/mexico-invade-bomb-trump-republicans-cartels I don't believe that anything will stop more Isrealis settling in the west bank and east Jerusalem. Nothing has stopped them for the last 50 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said: Arafat was a crook, murderer & assassin. An Egyptian at birth, his life's mission the largest thief on the planet in our lifetime; until Putin. Not a Palestinian nobleman. Don't bother hitching any trailer up to his story. Its a dead end! Nor worry about being coerced by his charms. He fooled people smarter than any of us here. I am not hitching my trailer to anything. I was stating facts. Facts from highly respected independent sources. Historical facts that can be easily verified. That prove that " opinion" piece in the Washington Post that claimed " Arafat killed Oslo" was a crock of shit. Both sides contributed to the breakdown of the Oslo accords. Edit. Arafat while a corrupt dude is not in the same league with Trump and Putin in regards to being the largest thief on the planet in our Lifetime. https://www.news.com.au/finance/work/leaders/how-russian-president-vladimir-putin-secretly-became-the-worlds-richest-person/news-story/302a422aca6502c7346cc26435ab2e75 " I do think that Putin is significantly richer than me Musk sensationally claimed " " But his claim that the Russian President Vladimir Putin is really the richest person in the world is one that's been repeated at the highest levels for several years now. " Edited February 8 by Ilunga Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 1 hour ago, Ilunga said: Arafat while a corrupt dude is not in the same league https://www.brookings.edu/articles/arafats-billions/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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