Ilunga Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 19 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said: https://www.brookings.edu/articles/arafats-billions/ While you don't want to address the fact that the information I provided totally discredited the Washington Post's claim that it was Arafat that " killed Oslo " It was the actions of both sides that killed that deal. I will address the fact that Arafat wasn't in Trump's league when it comes to being a grifter https://www.citizensforethics.org/reports-investigations/crew-investigations/trump-reported-making-more-than-1-6-billion-while-president/ And he is still at it https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2022/09/trumps-political-operation-raised-over-500-million-after-2020-election-despite-increased-scrutiny/ Then there's the " kids " https://www.citizensforethics.org/reports-investigations/crew-investigations/jared-and-ivanka-made-up-to-640-million-in-the-white-house/ And there is no end in sight. And you know the big difference between Arafat and Trump https://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/11/world/middleeast/mystery-lingers-whereabouts-of-his-hidden-fortune.html " Arafat lived a Spartan lifestyle, spent very little money on himself, living like a soldier with a narrow bed and a few uniforms in his closet. " As the rest of the article states he was a corrupt fuck, secret contributions, the black market and extortions, however he is a lot different than that corrupt POS PO1135809. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 2 minutes ago, Ilunga said: " Arafat lived a Spartan lifestyle, spent very little money on himself Maybe you're right? He's just a martyr. Fighting for a just cause... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 11 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said: Maybe you're right? He's just a martyr. Fighting for a just cause... Why do you twist what I have stated ? I never claimed he was martyr. Another huge difference between him and PO11035809 is that to a certain degree he actually cared about the Palestinian people. As we know PO1135809 only cares about himself. And yes he was fighting for a just cause. Unless you don't believe that the Palestinians should have a state of their own, a just cause ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 Yesterday Hamas rejected a truce deal; today Bibi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 26 minutes ago, Ilunga said: I never claimed he was martyr. No but you suggested he lived modestly; a man of the people? 59 minutes ago, Ilunga said: " Arafat lived a Spartan lifestyle, spent very little money on himself, living like a soldier with a narrow bed It sounds like a martyr? Sorry, I am not buying it. Nor is confusing him with Trump; WTF? If you think Ben Gurion is a POS, I am just suggesting Yasir is easily in this league. Pretend your an Olympic athlete? My thesis remains corruption is the #1 issue in the Middle East. Leaders like Arafat< Deif, Sinwar, Haniyeh. These are militant terrorist leaders. Payola earned by banging the streets used to make their militia even bigger. Earn control! The cause of Palestinians might be just, overdue; I do not for a second believe any of these leaders, nor Arafat who they deposed is not part of the violence to control Middle Eastern ghetto's. For the profits of corrupt leaders, not the freedom of their people. Arafat was kicked out of Egypt, Jordan, Syria & Lebanon. Ultimately his own compound in Ramallah. Everywhere he went. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 The real facts are Israel? Every 7 to odd years goes on an offensive. When terrorists get strong enough they can damage Israel. Knock the militant groups back to a size they can be dealt with. And these dumb asses keep instigating the wars with a power so much greater than themselves. Its that simple IMO./ 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 1 hour ago, Ilunga said: " Arafat lived a Spartan lifestyle, Image description A model of the presidential palace designed for Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat on display in the municipality of Hebron on December 23. The palace, which would overlook this divided city if it was ever built, has been in the planning stages for more than a year while the Palestinian Authority looks for funds for the project. MIDEAST 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 11 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said: Part two of my reply; with apology to @Optimist Prime, is again historical. The reality is Israel was than 3 times larger in 1949 than they were on inception because they won that war of independence. Those refugee's & camps, have become cities & townships. And yes Israel has kept grabbing land. To be fair, I don't hold against groups accepting arms, in hopes of forging their own nation. At this moment Iran, for example, does not hold the power to help Hamas or other Palestinian power groups wipe out Israel. Muhammed Dief, nor Sinwar can deliver Israel to the Palestinian people militarily. Yet their people deserve peace. Yet what are Palestinian options? In 80 years they have not been able to build the military power to win by war. Yet Palestinian options should not include trying to win wars they are destined to lose. Should include acceptance of Jewish & other groups. As international support, peacekeeping at least for a start, is the short term alternative to Jewish settlements or IDF occupied territories. So to recap: Quote "israel has kept grabbing land" "you don't hold against groups accepting arms in hopes of forging their own nations" "Hamas and other Palestinian groups want to wipe out Israel" "Palestinians should not try to win wars they are destined to lose" "international support, peacekeeping is a short term alternative to Jewish settlements or IDF occupied territories Your narrative is extremely sympathetic to Hamas and other Jihadi terror groups, while being somewhat anti-sympathetic to Israeli's and specifically jews. Muslims are Palestinians but Israeli's are jews in your own words. I am only responding because you tagged me, but this is what I got from your view of the history: Palestinians good, Jews Bad. It is a strange version of peace you have where you don't blame people for picking up weapons for their cause, but you blame people for picking up weapons to defend their lives. Round and round we go... Taking away what appears to be a bias towards terrorists, and seeing what I think for you is a bias towards the underdog, I can at least see where you are coming from, but the entire post has a slant to it that I don't think you intended to be so anti-sympathetic to Israel. I think this is a blind spot for you, like when you were very clear that you are not living on stolen aboriginal land because you checked and no one lived on your spot before your folks go there. All of Australia is stolen land, but you can do no wrong because your a good person. It leaves a blind spot that likely will make you want to reply and refute me when it is pointed out. I know you are a good guy, but we all have blind spots and bias. Your history lesson sounded just like a reason to find sympathy for the terror unleashed on Oct 7th. Have a good day, I won't be around as my Thursdays are pretty packed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 7 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said: So to recap: Palestinians have their corrupt leadership, internal gangland control of their populations to blame more than Israel... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 6 hours ago, Ilunga said: And yes he was fighting for a just cause. Unless you don't believe that the Palestinians should have a state of their own, a just cause ? There it is again: peace unless Ilunga deems your cause worthy of killing for. Doesn't look very good on you man. It is a further step down the spiral compared to the last 4 months of your posts. Sorry to point it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 Worth pointing out imo that all of the historical decisions, and however you want to spin or argue it, has led us to the shit show we see today. None of those lousy decisions by all involved tell us anything other than something else needs to happen. That something else from the Palestinian side isn't more violence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hat Trick Maker Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 On 2/7/2024 at 3:04 AM, Canuck Surfer said: I remember watching a video clip where an American writer talks about her experience of interviewing a Hezbollah fighter, on why they decided to join the militant group. Instead of explaining verbally, he took her to two memorials sites for victims that were killed in Israeli airstrikes. She commented how she noticed the majority of the photos she saw there were of a child no older than 10. But what caught her attention was a photo at the second site of an Iraqi girl lying (dying) stuck under the rubble at a then United Nations refugee camp in Lebanon. She concluded there is no ground more fertile for what some would call "terrorism" than the deaths of the innocent and a lack of accountability and justice. I think she summed it up pretty well there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taxi Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 On 2/6/2024 at 5:50 PM, Ilunga said: They did renounce violence, the Palestinians, and Isreal broke their side of the promise and kept taking land. No standing in the world ? With not only international organisations stating Israel is an arpartheid state but many Isrealis themselves. Combined the with the illegal settlements that the international community also condemns, If this was any other state/ nation, they would have had sanctions applied years ago. This isn't true. The Oslo Accords divided the West Bank into 3 parts, Area A, B, and C. Area A was full Palestinian Authority control. Area B was partial control by both the PA and Israel. Area C was disputed land that was to remain under Israeli control until a final peace agreement. Area C was to be transferred slowly over time to the PA, with potential land swaps for any areas containing Israeli Settlements. All Israeli settlements, outside of Jerusalem, are in Area C, with about 98% of those outside of the Jordan valley portion of Area C. There was never any kind of promise by Israel not to build in Area C. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 2 hours ago, Super19 said: sad to see him be an apologist for Hamas. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 10 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said: No but you suggested he lived modestly; a man of the people? It sounds like a martyr? Sorry, I am not buying it. Nor is confusing him with Trump; WTF? If you think Ben Gurion is a POS, I am just suggesting Yasir is easily in this league. Pretend your an Olympic athlete? My thesis remains corruption is the #1 issue in the Middle East. Leaders like Arafat< Deif, Sinwar, Haniyeh. These are militant terrorist leaders. Payola earned by banging the streets used to make their militia even bigger. Earn control! The cause of Palestinians might be just, overdue; I do not for a second believe any of these leaders, nor Arafat who they deposed is not part of the violence to control Middle Eastern ghetto's. For the profits of corrupt leaders, not the freedom of their people. Arafat was kicked out of Egypt, Jordan, Syria & Lebanon. Ultimately his own compound in Ramallah. Everywhere he went. Where have I said Ben Gurion is a POS ? I haven't. And where have I even insinuated Arafat is a martyr ? I haven't And neither did that article or the articles I will know post. This is a word you have used. And why are you bringing my athletic talent into this discussion ? It's just a discussion brother. As for Arafat living a Spartan lifestyle https://www.chicagotribune.com/2004/11/11/yasser-arafat-5/ https://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-yasser-arafat-20041111-story.html https://www.boloji.com/articles/11430/life-and-times-of-arafat-mission-incomplete Israeli labour leader Shimon Peres said after his death " The Palestinians see in Yasser Arafat the father of their nation. Like a father he did much for his children. But he was also over protective of them. He did more than any other leader to forge a unique and seperate Palestinian identity. He was the voice and symbol of the Palestinian cause. His tireless efforts bright the Palestinian cause to the forefront of the international agenda and kept it there for decades. " This from a man who was both a Prime Minister and President of Israel. The Times of London. A highly reputable source. While the article is behind a pay wall before you click on the link it states " He lived a Spartan life by choice, he wore the same thing everyday, ate the same thing everyday. He liked his honey, put hot tea on his.... " Google search Arafats lifestyle, nearly every article mentions the word Spartan lifestyle. This is so well known to people like myself who have been following this conflict for decades. I have never called him perfect, I have actually called him a terrorist, just like Menachem Begin Ex PM of Israel who was the leader of the terror group the Irgun. And Yitzhak Shamir another ex PM of Isreal that was the leader of the terror group the Lehi. Again where have I stated that the Palestinians don't contribute to this never ending conflict. I actually state it's a circle of hatred that both sides contribute to. That this is a trauma driven conflict, in the sense that the pain of previous events is passed down through the generations on both sides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 10 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said: The real facts are Israel? Every 7 to odd years goes on an offensive. When terrorists get strong enough they can damage Israel. Knock the militant groups back to a size they can be dealt with. And these dumb asses keep instigating the wars with a power so much greater than themselves. Its that simple IMO./ And what happens in between those 7 years ? As that video I posted about the ilegal Israeli settlements. Here it is again. This video was made in 2016, so 8 years ago. In the video it states there were 400,000 settlers in the west bank and now 8 years later there are early double that, 700,000. What happens every not only every 7 years but for the last 50 years is Israel keeps stealing more land. What would you do if you were a Palestinian, about this. This is linked to the people in Gaza. The Palestinians see themselves as one people. It's others that view them, Gazans and Palestinians who live in the west bank and Jerusalem as somehow different from one another. I will ask you this, how would you view this conflict if you were born and lived all your life in Gaza ? Since Israel has left Gaza, normal Palestinians live in poverty and despair. I have noted that some posters have call on Gazans to rise up and overthrow Hamas. Would you sacrifice your family to do this ? As I have stated, I certainly wouldn't. My son is the most precious thing. Also what's the logical train of thought for a Palestinians in regards to who oppresses them ? International and Isrealis human rights organisations state that Israel practices arpartheid on the Palestinian people. Many Isrealis themselves state this. Many across the world state this. Why do you think so many people rally for the Palestinian cause around the world ? I CONDEMN HAMAS The question I will ask you is, do you condemn arpartheid ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 9 minutes ago, Ilunga said: And what happens in between those 7 years ? As that video I posted about the ilegal Israeli settlements. Here it is again. This video was made in 2016, so 8 years ago. In the video it states there were 400,000 settlers in the west bank and now 8 years later there are early double that, 700,000. What happens every not only every 7 years but for the last 50 years is Israel keeps stealing more land. What would you do if you were a Palestinian, about this. This is linked to the people in Gaza. The Palestinians see themselves as one people. It's others that view them, Gazans and Palestinians who live in the west bank and Jerusalem as somehow different from one another. I will ask you this, how would you view this conflict if you were born and lived all your life in Gaza ? Since Israel has left Gaza, normal Palestinians live in poverty and despair. I have noted that some posters have call on Gazans to rise up and overthrow Hamas. Would you sacrifice your family to do this ? As I have stated, I certainly wouldn't. My son is the most precious thing. Also what's the logical train of thought for a Palestinians in regards to who oppresses them ? International and Isrealis human rights organisations state that Israel practices arpartheid on the Palestinian people. Many Isrealis themselves state this. Many across the world state this. Why do you think so many people rally for the Palestinian cause around the world ? I CONDEMN HAMAS The question I will ask you is, do you condemn arpartheid ? I will answer the last question from my perspective - I absolutely condemn apartheid. However, there's no apartheid in Israel. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 5 hours ago, Optimist Prime said: There it is again: peace unless Ilunga deems your cause worthy of killing for. Doesn't look very good on you man. It is a further step down the spiral compared to the last 4 months of your posts. Sorry to point it out. A further step down the spiral ? Why are people twisting my words to mean something I have never stated ? Quote me where I have stated anything is worth killing for. I have continually stated the opposite of that, that no cause is worth killing for. I have advocated using peaceful means to resolve not just this conflict, but all conflicts, and others including you have stated I am stupid,or wrong for doing this. You and others have actually stated that Isreal is justified in their actions, which have included killing 10,000 kids and thousands of women So for the billionth time NO CAUSE IS WORTH KILLING FOR. Because I defend the Palestinians right to a nation/state of their own. Their right to self determination I stepping down a spiral ? I stated Arafat was fighting for a just cause. A nation/ state for Palestinians. Their right to self determination. I did not state the means he/ the PLO, often used where justified, acts of the terrorism the PLO engaged in. Acts of terrorism are never justified. Man I have lost a bit of respect for this guy in relation to some of his statements in regards to Ukraine however some of his words seem pertinent now " All alone or in twos the ones who really love you Walk up and down outside the wall Some hand in hand, some gather together in bands The bleeding hearts and the artists make their stand And when they have given you their all, some stagger and fall AFTER ALL IT'S NOT EASY BANGIN YOUR HEART AGAINST SOME MAD BUGGERS WALL " And yes I am a bleeding heart, and I wear it on my sleeve. Fuckin happy to do so. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 1 hour ago, Taxi said: This isn't true. The Oslo Accords divided the West Bank into 3 parts, Area A, B, and C. Area A was full Palestinian Authority control. Area B was partial control by both the PA and Israel. Area C was disputed land that was to remain under Israeli control until a final peace agreement. Area C was to be transferred slowly over time to the PA, with potential land swaps for any areas containing Israeli Settlements. All Israeli settlements, outside of Jerusalem, are in Area C, with about 98% of those outside of the Jordan valley portion of Area C. There was never any kind of promise by Israel not to build in Area C. I am still waiting for you to admit you were wrong about me stating the Jews had no ties to the place that is now called Isreal Gaza and the occupied territories. Man up and admit you were wrong. This is one of the biggest reasons our species continues to make the same mistakes. Most people do not admit they were wrong/ made a mistake. 1 hour ago, Taxi said: This isn't true. The Oslo Accords divided the West Bank into 3 parts, Area A, B, and C. Area A was full Palestinian Authority control. Area B was partial control by both the PA and Israel. Area C was disputed land that was to remain under Israeli control until a final peace agreement. Area C was to be transferred slowly over time to the PA, with potential land swaps for any areas containing Israeli Settlements. All Israeli settlements, outside of Jerusalem, are in Area C, with about 98% of those outside of the Jordan valley portion of Area C. There was never any kind of promise by Israel not to build in Area C. Here's the renunciation of violence https://www.upi.com/Archives/1993/09/09/Israel-recognizes-PLO-which-renounces-violence/4937747547200/ I claimed that Israel broke their side of the deal. Israeli - British historian Avi Shlaim agrees with me because it is a fact. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/12/oslo-israel-reneged-colonial-palestine " The fundamental reason was that Israel reneged on its side of the deal" " Particularly destructive of the peace project was the policy of expanding Israeli settlements on occupied Palestinian territory. These settlements are ilegal under international law and constitute a huge obstacle to peace. Building civilian settlements beyond the green line does not violate the letter of the Oslo accords but it most decidedly violates its spirit. As a result of settler expansion the area available for a Palestinian state has been steadily shrinking to the point where a two - state solution is barely conceivable. " This is a point I have consistently made, how are the Palestinians meant to form a viable nation state when their land is continuously being taken from them. As for what Israel " agreed to " I don't agree to the fact that I won't keep stealing land from you is your justification for Israel taking land ? The a majority of the international community regard Jewish neighbourhoods, villages and farms located in area's captured by Israel from Jordan in 1967, including east Jerusalem as ilegal settlements. The reason for asserting illegality is the prohibition on transfer of civilians into occupied territories by an occupying power as set out in the fourth Geneva convention. This is in violation of article 49 of the court Geneva convention. Israel has been stealing land for over 50 years from the Palestinian people. And according to this Isreali source " This Is The Disturbing Reality Of Israeli Land Theft and Right - Wing Rule " " Methods that Israel and the settlers successfully used against the Palestinians are now undermining segments of Jewish Israeli society " https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-03-22/ty-article/.premium/this-is-the-disturbing-reality-of-israeli-land-theft-and-right-wing-rule/00000187-0432-dde5-ab8f-263ea83d0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hat Trick Maker Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 1 hour ago, Ilunga said: I CONDEMN HAMAS The question I will ask you is, do you condemn arpartheid ? Israel checks out all the boxes under the Apartheid Convention, and there are countless reports by human rights groups all over the world criticizing Israel for their apartheid practices. Hell, I was surprised when Germany's foreign minster called them out recently on their illegal settlement. It may be of great legal implication to call Israel an apartheid state on a diplomatic channel, but on the internet, honestly, it's just a formality. So I may not be following the context of your conversation with Optimist Prime, but you really should not be so concerned with anyone on the internet agreeing/disagreeing with you. I mean you don't need an admission of guilt in court to convict somebody, right? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 1 hour ago, RomanPer said: I will answer the last question from my perspective - I absolutely condemn apartheid. However, there's no apartheid in Israel. No you are correct there is no arpartheid in Isreal. It exists in the Occupied territories The international community states this. Many Isrealis themselves, including many Prominent ones state this. A quarter of the 7.6 million Jews who live in America state this. As Yossi Sarid a former Isreali cabinet minister stated " What acts like arpartheid, is run like arpartheid and harrasses like arpartheid is not a duck - it's arpartheid " I don't need all these people to tell me that the Palestinians live under some form of oppression, whatever label you want to place on it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 29 minutes ago, Hat Trick Maker said: Israel checks out all the boxes under the Apartheid Convention, and there are countless reports by human rights groups all over the world criticizing Israel for their apartheid practices. Hell, I was surprised when Germany's foreign minster called them out recently on their illegal settlement. It may be of great legal implication to call Israel an apartheid state on a diplomatic channel, but on the internet, honestly, it's just a formality. So I may not be following the context of your conversation with Optimist Prime, but you really should not be so concerned with anyone on the internet agreeing/disagreeing with you. I mean you don't need an admission of guilt in court to convict somebody, right? I passionately argue for what I consider justice, and I passionately argue against what I consider to be injustice. This is the basis of what I am. My golden rule, the basic dynamic of my life, Treat others the way I wish to be treated myself. To give you an insight into my personality, my " nickname " is intense dave. I have a lot of respect for @Optimist Prime I value his contributions, he has actually spent time in that region. I admire his knowledge of history, he has a great interest in it as do I. We are members of a fantasy league on this board. Though we don't always agree, above all, I try and focus on the things we share in common, not the things we don't agree on. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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