Hamas attacking Israel

[Hat Trick Maker]

25 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

I passionately argue for what I consider justice, and I passionately argue against what I consider to be injustice. 

 

This is the basis of what I am.

My golden rule, the basic dynamic of my life,

Treat others the way I wish to be treated myself.

 

 

To give you an insight into my personality, my " nickname " is intense dave. 

 

I have a lot of respect for @Optimist Prime

I value his contributions, he has actually spent time in that region.

I admire his knowledge of history, he has a great interest in it as do I.

We are members of a fantasy league on this board. 

 

Though we don't always agree, above all, I try and focus on the things we share in common, not the things we don't agree on.

 

As you can see from my post count, I'm rather new to the forum (and have been inactive on the good ol' CDC). So thank you for the clarification. Good to know that you two are having a healthy conversion, despite the disagreements, which is kind of rare on the internet, honestly.

 

I'm trying to educate myself on the Israel-Palestine conflict as much as I can, but the complexity of the topic certainly makes a discussion so much harder to conduct without some "fights".

 

But yes, always fight for what you think is right.

[Ilunga]

8 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

So to recap:

Your narrative is extremely sympathetic to Hamas and other Jihadi terror groups, while being somewhat anti-sympathetic to Israeli's and specifically jews. Muslims are Palestinians but Israeli's are jews in your own words. I am only responding because you tagged me, but this is what I got from your view of the history: Palestinians good, Jews Bad. It is a strange version of peace you have where you don't blame people for picking up weapons for their cause, but you blame people for picking up weapons to defend their lives. Round and round we go... Taking away what appears to be a bias towards terrorists, and seeing what I think for you is a bias towards the underdog, I can at least see where you are coming from, but the entire post has a slant to it that I don't think you intended to be so anti-sympathetic to Israel. I think this is a blind spot for you, like when you were very clear that you are not living on stolen aboriginal land because you checked and no one lived on your spot before your folks go there. All of Australia is stolen land, but you can do no wrong because your a good person. It leaves a blind spot that likely will make you want to reply and refute me when it is pointed out. I know you are a good guy, but we all have blind spots and bias. Your history lesson sounded just like a reason to find sympathy for the terror unleashed on Oct 7th. 

Have a good day, I won't be around as my Thursdays are pretty packed. 

 

Even though this is a reply to @Canuck Surfer 

You seem to be referring to me

 

" I think this is a blind spot for you, like when you were very clear that you are not living on stolen Aboriginal" ( they really hate being called this, it's first nations people )" land because you checked and no one lived on your spot before your folks got there.

All of Australia is stolen land and you can do no wrong because you are a good person. "

 

For starters we are talking nearly 300 years ago when we did not 

purport to live under a rules based order.

 

Now under the current rules based order we,the Australian people have come a long way in giving first nations people land rights.

We have formally recognised first nations and Torres straits islanders rights and interests, native title, over 50 percent of Australia's landmass.

You do realise how much land that is right ?

Isreal is 355 times smaller than Australia, it is one third the size of Tasmania. 

 

In regards to the land I live on, the land of the Wurundjeri people.

In March the Victorian government and the Wurrung clans first nations corporation on behalf of the Dja Dja traditional owner group entered into a recognition and settlement agreement under the traditional owner settlement act of 2010 which recognises the Dja Dja wurrung as the traditional owners of this land.

 

You get where I am going with this.

We the Australian people have recognised our first nations people ownership of this land.

There is so much land, more than enough for not just the current 25.6 million people but more.

 

Don't get me wrong, as I have often stated on this Board we have a long way to go in regards to treating our first nations people fairly.

Start a topic about it and I will be the first to champion their cause.

 

As I have stated Israel and the land that Palestinians want to form their own state is is tiny compared to Australia.

Israel has not only denied Palestinians the right to form their state, they continue to take land away from the Palestinians.

 

How are the Palestinians meant to form a state of their own. 

 

 

 

[Ilunga]

23 minutes ago, Hat Trick Maker said:

As you can see from my post count, I'm rather new to the forum (and have been inactive on the good ol' CDC). So thank you for the clarification. Good to know that you two are having a healthy conversion, despite the disagreements, which is kind of rare on the internet, honestly.

 

I'm trying to educate myself on the Israel-Palestine conflict as much as I can, but the complexity of the topic certainly makes a discussion so much harder to conduct without some "fights".

 

But yes, always fight for what you think is right.

 

Brother I try and never make it personal.

It's just a discussion board.

And not just here but in discussions in person.

 

CFF is the only form of social media I participate in.

 

I did once  kinda break my rule of making it personal, I did apologise while doing so, however I think the other poster got upset and now won't speak to me. 

 

Personally, I have/ will not ever block anyone, or use a negative emoticon.

 

I have been following this conflict for decades.

I have a distant Family connection to the origins of this conflict. 

 

Doesn't matter how long, or how many posts you have made, we are all the same on this board. 

In saying this some people are better informed than others.

[Hat Trick Maker]

10 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Brother I try and never make it personal.

It's just a discussion board.

And not just here but in discussions in person.

 

CFF is the only form of social media I participate in.

 

I did once  kinda break my rule of making it personal, I did apologise while doing so, however I think the other poster got upset and now won't speak to me. 

 

Personally, I have/ will not ever block anyone, or use a negative emoticon.

 

I have been following this conflict for decades.

I have a distant Family connection to the origins of this conflict. 

 

Doesn't matter how long, or how many posts you have made, we are all the same on this board. 

In saying this some people are better informed than others.

Can't comment on your past board history, but glad that there is some self-reflection going and that you hold no grudges. I will try to contribute to the discussion when I have the time and energy.

 

Now I will go an sulk on the 0-4 loss tonight...

[Ilunga]

5 hours ago, Hat Trick Maker said:

I remember watching a video clip where an American writer talks about her experience of interviewing a Hezbollah fighter, on why they decided to join the militant group. Instead of explaining verbally, he took her to two memorials sites for victims that were killed in Israeli airstrikes. She commented how she noticed the majority of the photos she saw there were of a child no older than 10. But what caught her attention was a photo at the second site of an Iraqi girl lying (dying) stuck under the rubble at a then United Nations refugee camp in Lebanon.

 

She concluded there is no ground more fertile for what some would call "terrorism" than the deaths of the innocent and a lack of accountability and justice.

 

I think she summed it up pretty well there.

 

 

 

https://www.inquirer.com/opinion/israel-war-civilian-deaths-bombing-gaza-hamas-20231208.html

 

" A study commissioned by general Stanley McChrystal estimated that ten terrorists were recruited for every civilian killed "

 

He was referring to counter insurgency conflicts such as this.

He has a great deal of experience in regards to these sorts of conflicts.

He was in command of the Joint special operations command.

Serving in Iraq and Afghanistan in similar circumstances to this conflict. 

 

Also your post touches upon what I state when I say this is a trauma driven conflict. th

The Hezbollah fighter taking that reporter to the memorial sites for victims killed in an Israeli air attack.

Edited February 9 by Ilunga

[Ilunga]

15 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Image description

A model of the presidential palace designed for Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat on display in the municipality of Hebron on December 23. The palace, which would overlook this divided city if it was ever built, has been in the planning stages for more than a year while the Palestinian Authority looks for funds for the project. MIDEAST

 

I have hunted the internet for anything that states, he, Arafat himself wanted this built, no matter it never was.

If he was serious about building it, wouldn't he use the money he stole to build it, after all that article states the PA were looking for funds for the project.

 

 Bottom line was that Arafats " old palace " the one he actually used 

 

https://www.smh.com.au/world/exit-begins-in-the-house-that-arafat-built-20060128-gdmv1g.html

 

" The compound is the closest thing the Palestinians have to a Presidential Palace, but it has all the charm of a car park on a bombsite "

[Ilunga]

5 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

 

sad to see him be an apologist for Hamas. 

 

He, Gabor is actually stating the opposite of what you are claiming

 

" I am not here to defend Hamas 

I am not here to defend Terrorism 

I am not here to defend fundamentalist Christian Jewish or Muslim " 

 

This is actually what he stated.

[Canuck Surfer]

Interesting, interesting interview > albeit an American viewpoint.

 

A trapped Sinwar is ready to make a deal.  Haniyeh wants permanent concessions to release hostages.

 

I personally hate Sinwar like Putin.  Well, more like Igor Girkin.  The rat who strangles people with his bare hands, literally in Girkin & Sinwars cases, reigns terror, rape & fear, controlling streets & enemy territory alike in the name of a bigger leader. That leader for Hamas remains Haniyeh in his cushy Qatari suite.  Why should he care?

 

Sinwar will be sacrificed it seems?

 

 

[Optimist Prime]

6 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Sinwar will be sacrificed it seems?

Martyr'd, is the word you are looking for, isn't it? When someone benefiting from your death convinces you to die, i think it is called Martydom.

[Taxi]

17 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

I am still waiting for you to admit you were wrong about me stating the Jews had no ties to the place that is now called Isreal Gaza and the occupied territories. 

 

Man up and admit you were wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have no idea what you are talking about. Jews have lots of ties to Israel. If you are arguing otherwise, it explains your argument, but you are very very wrong.

[Taxi]

17 hours ago, Ilunga said:

This is one of the biggest reasons our species continues to make the same mistakes.

Most people do not admit they were wrong/ made a mistake.

 

 

Here's the renunciation of violence 

 

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1993/09/09/Israel-recognizes-PLO-which-renounces-violence/4937747547200/

 

 

I claimed that Israel broke their side of the deal.

Israeli - British historian Avi Shlaim agrees with me because it is a fact.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/12/oslo-israel-reneged-colonial-palestine

 

" The fundamental reason was that Israel reneged on its side of the deal"

 

" Particularly destructive of the peace project was the policy of expanding Israeli settlements on occupied Palestinian territory. These settlements are ilegal under international law and constitute a huge obstacle to peace. Building civilian settlements beyond the green line does not violate the letter of the Oslo accords but it most decidedly violates its spirit. As a result of settler expansion the area available for a Palestinian state has been steadily shrinking to the point where a two - state solution is barely conceivable. "

 

This is a point I have consistently made, how are the Palestinians meant to form a viable nation state when their land is continuously being taken from them.

 

 

As for what Israel " agreed to "

 

I don't agree to the fact that I won't keep stealing land from you is your justification for Israel taking land ?

 

The a majority of the international community regard Jewish neighbourhoods, villages and farms located in area's captured by Israel from Jordan in 1967, including east Jerusalem as ilegal settlements. 

 

The reason for asserting illegality is the prohibition on transfer of civilians into occupied territories by an occupying power as set out in the fourth Geneva convention.

This is in violation of article 49 of the court Geneva convention. 

 

Israel has been stealing land for over 50 years from the Palestinian people.

 

And according to this Isreali source

 

" This Is The Disturbing Reality Of Israeli Land Theft and Right - Wing Rule "

 

" Methods that Israel and the settlers successfully used against the Palestinians are now undermining segments of Jewish Israeli society " 

 

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-03-22/ty-article/.premium/this-is-the-disturbing-reality-of-israeli-land-theft-and-right-wing-rule/00000187-0432-dde5-ab8f-263ea83d0000

 

 

 

1. Israel never stated they would unilaterally stop settlement expansion prior to a final border deal. Their position from day 1 has been that they will retain part of the West Bank and consider a land swap at a later date.

 

2. The Palestinians certainly did not hold up their part of the deal by renouncing violence. Lots of violence coming from their side.

[Taxi]

7 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Interesting, interesting interview > albeit an American viewpoint.

 

A trapped Sinwar is ready to make a deal.  Haniyeh wants permanent concessions to release hostages.

 

I personally hate Sinwar like Putin.  Well, more like Igor Girkin.  The rat who strangles people with his bare hands, literally in Girkin & Sinwars cases, reigns terror, rape & fear, controlling streets & enemy territory alike in the name of a bigger leader. That leader for Hamas remains Haniyeh in his cushy Qatari suite.  Why should he care?

 

Sinwar will be sacrificed it seems?

 

 

The only deal from Sinwar I see Israel accepting at this point is his surrender. 

 

A lot of deals that were on the table before, after many months of horrific war, are likely off the table now.

[Super19]

2 hours ago, Taxi said:

 

2. The Palestinians certainly did not hold up their part of the deal by renouncing violence. Lots of violence coming from their side.

This I don't get.

 

So Israel has the justification to?:

 

- kill 30,000 Palestinians

- displace 2.7 million of them from their homes

- starve them all

- promise that they will NOT EVER get their state

- demolish all their univesities

- execute any man they want

...

 

and the list goes on and on and on.

 

My answer? NO.

[Bure_Pavel]

5 minutes ago, Super19 said:

This I don't get.

 

So Israel has the justification to?:

 

- kill 30,000 Palestinians

- displace 2.7 million of them from their homes

- starve them all

- promise that they will NOT EVER get their state

- demolish all their univesities

- execute any man they want

...

 

and the list goes on and on and on.

 

My answer? NO.

Important lesson here is don't pick fights you have no chance of winning. What did Hamas really expect was going to happen after Oct 7.

[Super19]

14 minutes ago, Bure_Pavel said:

Important lesson here is don't pick fights you have no chance of winning. What did Hamas really expect was going to happen after Oct 7.

Even Israel isn't winning though. 

No goals have been accomplished. Hamas is still there. No hostages retrieved by the IDF. And they are in the hot seat at The Hague.

[Bob Long]

7 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Even Israel isn't winning though. 

 

funny, it looks like a lopsided something. 

 

7 minutes ago, Super19 said:

No goals have been accomplished. Hamas is still there. No hostages retrieved by the IDF. And they are in the hot seat at The Hague.

 

true Hamas is still there, and likely always will be. But their capacity to do harm is greatly diminished. They've lost their tunnels and other civilian hidey-holes. They've depleted their current funding (although lots more where that came from I'm sure).

 

As far as The Hague goes, thats meaningless going forward even if they hang Bibi. That doesn't contribute anything to rebuilding a single home.

 

Palestinians have to choose a more reasonable political leadership that can put them on peaceful path, they just have to, if anything is to be resolved. 

[Ilunga]

6 hours ago, Taxi said:

 

I have no idea what you are talking about. Jews have lots of ties to Israel. If you are arguing otherwise, it explains your argument, but you are very very wrong.

 

You and everyone in this 

thread know exactly what I am talking about.

You personally insulted me.

 

A while back you accused me of indulging in " mental gymnastics",  those were your exact words, in trying to prove that the Jews had no ties to Israel.

 

Amongst other posts that I have posted that illustrate,the Jews have ties to Israel, I had previously posted that Solomon built the first temple in 957BC

 

You don't even have the courage to admit you were wrong.

 

And now you claim you don't even know what I am talking about ?

Edited February 10 by Ilunga

[Ilunga]

4 hours ago, Taxi said:

 

1. Israel never stated they would unilaterally stop settlement expansion prior to a final border deal. Their position from day 1 has been that they will retain part of the West Bank and consider a land swap at a later date.

 

2. The Palestinians certainly did not hold up their part of the deal by renouncing violence. Lots of violence coming from their side.

 

 

Yes Israel never stated they would stop breaking international law and keep stealing land from the Palestinians.

This as most analysts agree is the biggest impediment to a peaceful resolution to this conflict.

 

 

Yes while the Palestinians under Arafat did renounce violence, extremist elements did commit violence after provocative acts by the Israelis.

Arafat did order the arrest of hundreds of islamic extremists. 

 

Here is a timeline of the events from a highly respected source of investagive journalism PBD Frontline

 

 

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/timeline-israeli-palestinian-peace-process-1993-oslo-accord/

 

 

[Ilunga]

On 1/20/2024 at 5:48 AM, Taxi said:

You don't actually believe this do you?

 

Wrong for so many reasons. The Philistines were Greek. They didn't live in Jerusalem. They lived on the coast near what is now Gaza. They were an enemy of the ancient Israelites. The Romans chose the name "Palestinae" to humiliate the Jews after they lost the second rebellion. The Philistines are in no way related to modern Arabs. They were a seafaring group of Greeks who likely ceased to exist some time around 600 BC.

 

Are these the mental gymnastics you have created for yourself to ignore all the evidence that shows that the Jews have history in Israel?

 

 

@Taxi here is you referring to me stating

" Are these the mental gymnastics you have created for yourself to ignore all the evidence that shows the Jews have history in Israel"

 

 

On 1/19/2024 at 10:32 PM, Ilunga said:

 

There are not Palestinian politicians entering the Jewish temple mount.

 

The first temple was built by Solomon in 957 BC, the first Mosque in somewhere around 700 ce.

So just over 1200 years.

 

As I stated in a reply to Roman, the Philistines were are the ancestors to the modern day Palestinians lived in the place that is known as Jerusalem before the Isrealites got there. 

 

And yes, I believe that like all " heritage" sites around the world, all people should be allowed to visit, respect and admire them.

 

 

Note the time stamp in this post, literally the day before you accused me those " mental gymnastics" here I am attributing a Jewish presence in Isreal that dates back to 957BC

On 1/19/2024 at 10:56 PM, Ilunga said:

 

So 1400 hundred years ago, a group of people who share some, if not many of the Judeo Christian beliefs and traditions, built a building that is way older than many of the surviving Christian buildings around the world.

Just to piss the Jews off, most of which had gone to other places. 

 

Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the first temple around 587 BC 

Titus destroyed the second temple in 70 AD.

 

The city has been destroyed twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times and recaptured 44 times.

 

As I stated the ancestors of modern day Palestinians lived in what is now known as Jerusalem before the Isrealites got there. 

 

Sigh, no wonder we fight wars over stupid shit.

 

 

Here is me again the same day attributing a Jewish presence that dates back thousands of years ago.

 

On 1/19/2024 at 11:10 PM, Ilunga said:

 

The first article I read was wrong, so yes you are right I have got it wrong, the Philistines are not the ancestors of Palestinians.

 

What I will remind you of is that Jews and Palestinians are literally blood brothers. 

 

https://www.haaretz.com/science-and-health/2015-10-20/ty-article/palestinians-and-jews-share-genetic-roots/0000017f-dc0e-df9c-a17f-fe1e57730000

 

 

 

Here is me having the courage to admit I was wrong about something.

 

On 1/20/2024 at 11:32 AM, Ilunga said:

 

@Taxi here is me Manning up and admitting admitting I was wrong.

 

 

@Taxi here is me attributing a Jewish presence in the area known as Isreal, the occupied territories and Gaza

 

 

@Taxi

Here is me again attributing a Jewish presence in the area that is known as Isreal, the occupied territories and Gaza.

 

 

If you want credibility you will have the courage to man up and admit you were wrong when you accused me of 

" Indulging in " mental gymnastics you have created for yourself to ignore all the evidence that shows the Jews have history in Isreal "

Edited February 10 by Ilunga

[Canuck Surfer]

6 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

Martyr'd, is the word you are looking for, isn't it? When someone benefiting from your death convinces you to die, i think it is called Martydom.

Not me.

 

I hate Sinwar! There is no excuse for Oct 7.  Nor was there for slaughtering Olympic athletes 50 years ago by similar terrorists. While I have significant concern for Settler violence, REW extremists & settlements themselves in Israel.  Many other activities, marches...

 

I believe Israel needs and deserves the occupied territories till they are, effectively, disarmed. A Palestinian state has to come from within a non aggressive state until it develops a justice & community police that stops its own terrorists.  It will take a generation.  At least!

 

I also believe Israel has overstretched their reach. It confuses the issue. Yet its within an environment where they are surrounded by ten times its population in Muslim & Arabic countries.  Far too many of whom are Islamic extremists, seek their dissolution. Each extremist group isolates themselves from other ethnic Muslim groups.  Even further from other groups.  Lebanon for example was a multicultural concept on inception.  Hezbollah, a similar group, is as committed to taking over Lebanon from Christian Orthodox, Catholic, Jews & non Shia Muslims. Slowly they want to eliminate any opposition. As it is to the elimination of Jews. Just like Hamas. That requires isolation, justifies occupied zones.

 

So in Israel there is, rightfully, disdain or disregard for these groups welfare. Opportunists who try to profit & look for weakness to extort. That is not right either. I don't mind someone renting a home from a Palestinian owner, buying at a market rate in Occupied territories.  Chasing them out with violence or oppression is not market rate. As the first world & richer country I believe Israel has to treat these area's and people with respect. Invite a UN observer, an Arabic volunteer from abroad, a Palestinian with IDF to guard checkpoints and borders.

 

How close to that was you job as a Canadian soldier in the region?

 

Sinwar should have been shot, not released on prisoner exchange. Or in a Palestinian jail to start 30 years ago. Never let out. 

 

 

[Super19]

3 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

funny, it looks like a lopsided something. 

 

 

true Hamas is still there, and likely always will be. But their capacity to do harm is greatly diminished. They've lost their tunnels and other civilian hidey-holes. They've depleted their current funding (although lots more where that came from I'm sure).

 

As far as The Hague goes, thats meaningless going forward even if they hang Bibi. That doesn't contribute anything to rebuilding a single home.

 

Palestinians have to choose a more reasonable political leadership that can put them on peaceful path, they just have to, if anything is to be resolved. 

Again, Israel is not accomplishing any of its goals.

 

Hamas is still there. Now Hezbollah is firing rockets into Israel.

 

The hostages haven't been returned. The only time they did is when Israel dealt with Hamas. And plus, the IDF have even killed some hostages and saved zero.

 

So not only have any goals not been accomplished, Israel finds themselves in the hot seat at The Hague, finds themselves with Hezbollah now firing rockets at them, and cannot even stop the Houthis from imposing their blockade which is affecting their economy:

 

"While fighting in Gaza may diminish in intensity or pause, there is currently no agreement to end the hostilities durably and no agreement on a longer-term plan that would fully restore and eventually strengthen security for Israel," Moody's said in a statement on Friday."

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/moodys-downgrades-israel-a2-2024-02-09/

 

Don't confuse the lopsided destruction of targets vs non targets and destruction of Gaza to what is actually being accomplished towards peace and security.

[Alflives]

11 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Again, Israel is not accomplishing any of its goals.

 

Hamas is still there. Now Hezbollah is firing rockets into Israel.

 

The hostages haven't been returned. The only time they did is when Israel dealt with Hamas. And plus, the IDF have even killed some hostages and saved zero.

 

So not only have any goals not been accomplished, Israel finds themselves in the hot seat at The Hague, finds themselves with Hezbollah now firing rockets at them, and cannot even stop the Houthis from imposing their blockade which is affecting their economy:

 

"While fighting in Gaza may diminish in intensity or pause, there is currently no agreement to end the hostilities durably and no agreement on a longer-term plan that would fully restore and eventually strengthen security for Israel," Moody's said in a statement on Friday."

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/moodys-downgrades-israel-a2-2024-02-09/

 

Don't confuse the lopsided destruction of targets vs non targets and destruction of Gaza to what is actually being accomplished towards peace and security.

Got to disagree. The IDF will eliminate Hamas’s ability to wage attacks. Hamas should surrender though so the people of Gaza, who they are supposed to represent, don’t continue to suffer. 

[Ilunga]

11 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Again, Israel is not accomplishing any of its goals.

 

Hamas is still there. Now Hezbollah is firing rockets into Israel.

 

The hostages haven't been returned. The only time they did is when Israel dealt with Hamas. And plus, the IDF have even killed some hostages and saved zero.

 

So not only have any goals not been accomplished, Israel finds themselves in the hot seat at The Hague, finds themselves with Hezbollah now firing rockets at them, and cannot even stop the Houthis from imposing their blockade which is affecting their economy:

 

"While fighting in Gaza may diminish in intensity or pause, there is currently no agreement to end the hostilities durably and no agreement on a longer-term plan that would fully restore and eventually strengthen security for Israel," Moody's said in a statement on Friday."

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/moodys-downgrades-israel-a2-2024-02-09/

 

Don't confuse the lopsided destruction of targets vs non targets and destruction of Gaza to what is actually being accomplished towards peace and security.

 

This article details how mass bombings and the collective punishment of civilian populations have failed in the past.

It usually strengthens the resolve of the people that are victims of these attacks.

Including the people involved in the other current conflict we have a thread about on this board.

 

 

https://insidestory.org.au/israels-failed-bombing-campaign-in-gaza/

 

 

Again another source that states the obvious

 

" Worse, Israeli officials admit that the military campaign is killing twice as many civilians as Hamas fighters, Israel is certainly producing more terrorists than it is killing, since each dead civilian will have family and friends eager to join Hamas to exact revenge "

 

" Indeed survey evidence shows the extent to which Israel's military operations are now producing more terrorists than they are killing. In a 14 November poll of Palestinians in the west bank and Gaza conducted by Arab world Research for Development, 76 percent of respondents said they viewed Hamas positively. Compare that with the 27 percent of respondents who told different pollsters in September that Hamas was " most deserving of representing the Palestinian people "

 

 

How hard is this to understand ?

Punishing the civilian population is not just simply wrong, it is not an effective way to fight a conflict.

 

[Super19]

7 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

This article details how mass bombings and the collective punishment of civilian populations have failed in the past.

It usually strengthens the resolve of the people that are victims of these attacks.

Including the people involved in the other current conflict we have a thread about on this board.

 

 

https://insidestory.org.au/israels-failed-bombing-campaign-in-gaza/

 

 

Again another source that states the obvious

 

" Worse, Israeli officials admit that the military campaign is killing twice as many civilians as Hamas fighters, Israel is certainly producing more terrorists than it is killing, since each dead civilian will have family and friends eager to join Hamas to exact revenge "

 

" Indeed survey evidence shows the extent to which Israel's military operations are now producing more terrorists than they are killing. In a 14 November poll of Palestinians in the west bank and Gaza conducted by Arab world Research for Development, 76 percent of respondents said they viewed Hamas positively. Compare that with the 27 percent of respondents who told different pollsters in September that Hamas was " most deserving of representing the Palestinian people "

 

 

How hard is this to understand ?

Punishing the civilian population is not just simply wrong, it is not an effective way to fight a conflict.

 

Agreed, and it makes sense. I'm not saying I condone it, I'm just saying I understand. 

 

Elon Musk, before he visited Nentanyahu and Israel, said on a Lex Friedman podcast that for every Hamas killed, how many who lost a loved will join Hamas? I don't have the exact quotation but you get the idea! Not sure other people do tho...

 

Israeli aggression premeditated Palestenian response. And for the Palestenians that choose peace, I've posted numerous examples and left out countless examples of the people/State some people expect these peaceful Palestenians to co-exist with.

[Ilunga]

24 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Got to disagree. The IDF will eliminate Hamas’s ability to wage attacks. Hamas should surrender though so the people of Gaza, who they are supposed to represent, don’t continue to suffer. 

 

You can kill people but you can't kill an ideology.

And that's essentially what Hamas is, an ideology.

 

" You can't kill your way to defeating an ideology "

 

I have posted enough evidence to illustrate that Israel's actions are only attracting more people to that ideology. 

 

 

 

https://potomacinstitute.org/reports/39-books/117-new-release-it-s-the-ideology-how-to-defeat-islamist-terrorism-once-and-for-all-2

 

" Kill that ideology and we kill the terrorism it breeds. But we cannot kill ideas with bombs and bullets - we can only kill them with better ideas. "