Hamas attacking Israel

[Bob Long]

17 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

I already answered this question several times - yes, i do, if the purpose of that nation will not be to destroy Israel. I see very little evidence for it being the case, however.

 

And this is the heart of it.

 

Is the UN going to commit to decades of assistance and policing to ensure that Gaza develops into a peaceful neighbour? Or does this all just turn back into conflict sooner than later?

[Ilunga]

8 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

The larger objection to a two state solution is the Palestinian people themselves.  They have been taught for 80 years this is 100% their land.

 

It has been offered at least 5 times including 2006 & upon Israels inception. Not by Bibi's Likud party, nonetheless...

 

This is simply untrue.

 

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/what-is-two-state-solution-israel-palestinian-conflict-2024-01-25/

 

" Obstacles have long impeded the two - state solution which envisages Israeli and Palestinian states along side each other.

 

These include Jewish settlement in occupied land the Palestinians seek for a state, uncompromising positions on core issues including Jerusalem, violence and deep mistrust "

 

Those last three issues are shared by both sides.

 

The Palestinians want east Jerusalem as the capital of their state.

The Isrealis want all of Jerusalem for themselves.

 

There is deep mistrust on both sides

 

And as for the violence, before this current phase of the conflict.

 

The chart in this article illustrates the death and injury toll from 2008 - 2020

The closest I could find that corresponds with Hamas' " rule " in Gaza

 

 

https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/

 

 

As you can see, 5,600 Palestinians have died in that period.

250 Israelis died in that period.

 

115,000 Palestinians were injured.

5,600 Isrealis were injured. 

 

And that's not just a chart.

Those figures represent real human beings, many of them women and children.

 

My heart goes out to the families and loved ones of all those people, however my heart is obviously going out to nearly 115,000 more Palestinians.

 

 

From the original Reuters article 

 

" The process was hit by rejection and violence on both sides "

 

Hamas which opposed the process carried out suicide attacks, which killed scores of people.

 

Rabin was assassinated by an Isreali Ultra - Nationalist that opposed his peace policies. 

 

The fate of Jerusalem, deemed by Israel as its " eternal and indivisible " capital was the main obstacle " 

 

HOW BIG ARE THE OBSTACLES

 

The obstacles have grown with time.

While Israel withdrew settlers and soldiers from Gaza in 2005, Jewish settlements expanded elsewhere. Palestinians say this undermines the prospect of a viable state.

 

Hamas founding charter calls for Isreals destruction and it refuses to recognise Isreal.

Hamas leaders at times have offered a long term truce in return for a viable Palestinian state on all territory occupied by Israel in 1967.

 

Israel considers this a ruse. "

 

I will remind you that Hamas changed their charter in 2017.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/01/hamas-new-charter-palestine-israel-1967-borders

 

" The new document the Islamist movement is not seeking war with with the Jewish people - only with Zionism that drives the occupation of Palestine.

 

The new document insists that Hamas is not a revolutionary force that seeks to intervene in other countries, a commitment that is likely to be welcomed by other states such as Egypt. "

 

So what this all boils down to, is do you believe in international law, and do you believe that the Palestinians deserve to form a viable nation/state of their own.

Edited February 11 by Ilunga

[Ilunga]

52 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

I already answered this question several times - yes, i do, if the purpose of that nation will not be to destroy Israel. I see very little evidence for it being the case, however.

 

Well how can the Palestinians form a viable state when Isreal keeps taking land from them.

 

And maybe, very probably,  if they were allowed to form their own state they would stop fighting to form it, because it's has already been formed ?

 

Especially the land on the west bank that is designated as Area C which contains the most fertile land and most valuable resources, that was supposed to be gradually transferred to Palestinian jurisdiction, but this not has happened. 

 

Tell me, in your words, how can they form a viable state ?

And do you agree that east Jerusalem should be their capital ?

[RomanPer]

12 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

This is simply untrue.

 

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/what-is-two-state-solution-israel-palestinian-conflict-2024-01-25/

 

" Obstacles have long impeded the two - state solution which envisages Israeli and Palestinian states along side each other.

 

These include Jewish settlement in occupied land the Palestinians seek for a state, uncompromising positions on core issues including Jerusalem, violence and deep mistrust "

 

Those last three issues are shared by both sides.

 

The Palestinians want east Jerusalem as the capital of their state.

The Isrealis want all of Jerusalem for themselves.

 

There is deep mistrust on both sides

 

And as for the violence, before this current phase of the conflict.

 

The chart in this article illustrates the death and injury toll from 2008 - 2020

The closest I could find that corresponds with Hamas' " rule " in Gaza

 

 

https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/

 

 

As you can see, 5,600 Palestinians have died in that period.

250 Israelis died in that period.

 

115,000 Palestinians were injured.

5,600 Isrealis were injured. 

 

And that's not just a chart.

Those figures represent real human beings, many of them women and children.

 

My heart goes out to the families and loved ones of all those people, however my heart is obviously going out to nearly 115,000 more Palestinians.

 

 

From the original Reuters article 

 

" The process was hit by rejection and violence on both sides "

 

Hamas which opposed the process carried out suicide attacks, which killed scores of people.

 

Rabin was assassinated by an Isreali Ultra - Nationalist that opposed his peace policies. 

 

The fate of Jerusalem, deemed by Israel as its " eternal and indivisible " capital was the main obstacle " 

 

HOW BIG ARE THE OBSTACLES

 

The obstacles have grown with time.

While Israel withdrew settlers and soldiers from Gaza in 2005, Jewish settlements expanded elsewhere. Palestinians say this undermines the prospect of a viable state.

 

Hamas founding charter calls for Isreals destruction and it refuses to recognise Isreal.

Hamas leaders at times have offered a long term truce in return for a viable Palestinian state on all territory occupied by Israel in 1967.

 

Israel considers this a ruse. "

 

I will remind you that Hamas changed their charter in 2017.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/01/hamas-new-charter-palestine-israel-1967-borders

 

" The new document the Islamist movement is not seeking war with with the Jewish people - only with Zionism that drives the occupation of Palestine.

 

The new document insists that Hamas is not a revolutionary force that seeks to intervene in other countries, a commitment that is likely to be welcomed by other states such as Egypt. "

 

So what this all boils down to, is do you believe in international law, and do you believe that the Palestinians deserve to form a viable nation/state of their own.

So, you make a big statement in the first sentence that “it’s simply not true” and then go on another one of your never ending tirades combining half truth with everything else. Reuters article is just another opinion piece and even in it there’s nothing that would substantiate your claim in your first sentence. If you want to have a discussion, perhaps be more concise rather than converting every post into an opinionated dissertation. No one disputes that there are people on both sides trying to find peaceful solution. But there’s also plenty of evidence that there’s a very large number of Palestinians who are not interested in 2 state solution and want it all “from the river to the sea”. Go to this channel on YouTube and listen yourself. And watch all the videos, not just the ones that fit your view of the situation: https://youtube.com/@CoreyGilShusterAskProject?si=IrS6iWoYdWiKkjn_

[RomanPer]

9 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Well how can the Palestinians form a viable state when Isreal keeps taking land from them.

 

And maybe, very probably,  if they were allowed to form their own state they would stop fighting to form it, because it's has already been formed ?

 

Especially the land on the west bank that is designated as Area C which contains the most fertile land and most valuable resources, that was supposed to be gradually transferred to Palestinian jurisdiction, but this not has happened. 

 

Tell me, in your words, how can they form a viable state ?

And do you agree that east Jerusalem should be their capital ?

How can Israel allow a hostile country practically embedded within its borders if the other side showed nothing but desire to kill all the Jews?

 

And as for Jerusalem - sorry, but Israel has a proven track record of respecting holy places of all religions and access to the holy sites for their respective worshipers. While the other side has proven track record of destroying anything other than Islamic holy places.

Edited February 11 by RomanPer

[Ilunga]

51 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

So, you make a big statement in the first sentence that “it’s simply not true” and then go on another one of your never ending tirades combining half truth with everything else. Reuters article is just another opinion piece and even in it there’s nothing that would substantiate your claim in your first sentence. If you want to have a discussion, perhaps be more concise rather than converting every post into an opinionated dissertation. No one disputes that there are people on both sides trying to find peaceful solution. But there’s also plenty of evidence that there’s a very large number of Palestinians who are not interested in 2 state solution and want it all “from the river to the sea”. Go to this channel on YouTube and listen yourself. And watch all the videos, not just the ones that fit your view of the situation: https://youtube.com/@CoreyGilShusterAskProject?si=IrS6iWoYdWiKkjn_

 

 

Sigh.....

So whenever I post something I believe in, I am going on one of my never ending tirades ? 

 

The poster I was replying to suggested that it was the Palestinians themselves who are largely responsible for the the fact there has not been a two - state solution.

This is simply not true.

It is both sides as that article illustrates.

 

Both sides mistrust each other.

Both sides have committed violence.

These are facts.

 

As for violence that has been committed by both sides, you have 

totally ignored the death and casualty figure I posted.

Just between 2008 - 2020, nearly 115,000 Palestinians were killed and injured in relation to just under 6,000 Israelis 

 

That Reuters article detailed factual information about the events described in that article. 

It is not just an opinion piece.

 

The quotes I used from that article are factual information, go check them if you doubt this.

They weren't opinions.

 

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/reuters/

 

Reuters fact check 

 

Factual reporting very high.

The highest level according to that scale.

 

Also the least biased.  

 

 

And just like you have posted videos of Palestinians that want all of the Israeli, Gaza and the occupied territories for themselves, I could post videos of Isrealis that want the same thing.

In fact the current leader of Isreal has proudly bragged about the fact that he has blocked a two - state solution for decades.

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/pointing-to-hamass-little-state-netanyahu-touts-role-blocking-2-state-solution/

 

 

 

 

 

" Death to Arabs "

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2021/06/15/jerusalem-far-right-jewish-march-vpx.cnn

 

More chants of " death to Arabs " 

May last year 

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israeli-crowds-chant-racist-slogans-taunt-palestinians-during-jerusalem-day-march

 

I can post more if you want.

 

 

As I have posted, Hamas modified their charter in 2017.

What they want is what the international community wants, a

Palestinian state, accepting the idea that it incorporates the territories occupied by Israel in the six day war of 1967.

 

So again it's not just the the Palestinians who are the major impediments to peace, both sides contribute to this

 

This was my original claim.

Edited February 11 by Ilunga

[Ilunga]

51 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

How can Israel allow a hostile country practically embedded within its borders if the other side showed nothing but desire to kill all the Jews?

 

And as for Jerusalem - sorry, but Israel has a proven track record of respecting holy places of all religions and access to the holy sites for their respective worshipers. While the other side has proven track record of destroying anything other than Islamic holy places.

 

You are ignoring my statement that if the Palestinians were allowed to form their own state, they would stop fighting to do that.

You know, because they would have a state. 

 

So you are coming up with an excuse to deprive Palestinians of the right to have east Jerusalem as their capital, based on their disrespect of holy 

places  ?

 

The last time I checked it was/is Isreal that is destroying " holy places "

 

72 Mosques and 2 churches in Gaza, which according to this BBC article is home to some of the oldest Mosques and churches in the world.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67983018

 

 But somehow I am guessing you will find some justification for this.

 

 

Like just admit the fact, that you like many Isrealis, want all of Jerusalem to belong to Israel.

 

And this is one of the impediments to a peaceful solution to this conflict.

[RomanPer]

19 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

You are ignoring my statement that if the Palestinians were allowed to form their own state, they would stop fighting to do that.

You know, because they would have a state. 

 

So you are coming up with an excuse to deprive Palestinians of the right to have east Jerusalem as their capital, based on their disrespect of holy 

places  ?

 

The last time I checked it was/is Isreal that is destroying " holy places "

 

72 Mosques and 2 churches in Gaza, which according to this BBC article is home to some of the oldest Mosques and churches in the world.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67983018

 

 But somehow I am guessing you will find some justification for this.

 

 

Like just admit the fact, that you like many Isrealis, want all of Jerusalem to belong to Israel.

 

And this is one of the impediments to a peaceful solution to this conflict.

 

What exactly in the history of this conflict makes you believe that your highlighted statement above is realistic currently?

 

Oh, the country is called "IsrAEl", not "IsrEAl". At first I thought it was a typo, but you keep on repeating it quite often. Not really sure why.

 

As for your second highlighted sentence - this is the perfect example of half truth. These places weren't destroyed because they were mosques or churches. Yet, from perspective of fundamentalist islamists (ISIS) they are destroying non-Islamic cultural and religious artifacts just because they are not related to Islam.

 

And yes, I do want all of Jerusalem to belong to Israel. I already brought up countless times that Jerusalem is the primary holy site mentioned in Torah numerous times (in addition to the tombs of the forefathers). Al Aqsa was an arbitrary built mosque built on top of 2 Jewish temples as a sign of dominance over Jews. Nowhere in Quran you will find any mention of Jerusalem as a holy site. It's all about Makkah and Madinah. You don't have to agree with me, but it's a reality. Read carefully through both books (they both have been translated to English) and prove me wrong. Also, starting from mid 19th century, way before Zionism movement, number of Jews living in Jerusalem exceeded Muslim population. If the site was so holy to Muslims, then why more wouldn't move there during the Ottoman Empire rule? 

[Ilunga]

And for those that want to argue that Isreal, Gaza and the the occupied territories belongs to those who first inhabited that place including Jerusalem, which is a remarkably similar term to the Canaanite tribe, the Jebusites. 

 

It actually belongs to modern day Lebanese people who are the direct genetic descendants of the Canaanites.

 

https://www.sci.news/archaeology/lebanese-direct-descendants-biblical-canaanites-05078.html

 

 

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/canaanite-bible-ancient-dna-lebanon-genetics-archaeology

 

Me I don't believe that, as in the fact that Isreal Gaza and the occupied territories belongs to modern day Lebanese.

Just like I don't believe that a " god " promised the Israelites that land.

 

Just like there is no archeological or historical evidence for an exodus out of Egypt, or of the figure of Moses himself, outside of the first/old testament of the bible.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2014/nov/30/moses-man-versus-myth-ridley-scott

 

 

[Ilunga]

47 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

What exactly in the history of this conflict makes you believe that your highlighted statement above is realistic currently?

 

Oh, the country is called "IsrAEl", not "IsrEAl". At first I thought it was a typo, but you keep on repeating it quite often. Not really sure why.

 

As for your second highlighted sentence - this is the perfect example of half truth. These places weren't destroyed because they were mosques or churches. Yet, from perspective of fundamentalist islamists (ISIS) they are destroying non-Islamic cultural and religious artifacts just because they are not related to Islam.

 

And yes, I do want all of Jerusalem to belong to Israel. I already brought up countless times that Jerusalem is the primary holy site mentioned in Torah numerous times (in addition to the tombs of the forefathers). Al Aqsa was an arbitrary built mosque built on top of 2 Jewish temples as a sign of dominance over Jews. Nowhere in Quran you will find any mention of Jerusalem as a holy site. It's all about Makkah and Madinah. You don't have to agree with me, but it's a reality. Read carefully through both books (they both have been translated to English) and prove me wrong. Also, starting from mid 19th century, way before Zionism movement, number of Jews living in Jerusalem exceeded Muslim population. If the site was so holy to Muslims, then why more wouldn't move there during the Ottoman Empire rule? 

 

As for Israel, it's my auto correct that seems to be " correctting" my spelling.

I apologise on its and my behalf.

 

Brother you brought up the fact that the Palestinians don't respect holy sites, the fact of the matter is that Israel, (had to correct my auto correct) is actually destroying holy sites.

Whatever the reason for this, the historical nature of these structures can never be replaced.

 

TBH with you, as far as I am concerned these " holy sites" in the " holy land " have caused more pain, death and trouble over the centuries, than what their historical significance is worth. 

 

And here you go, just like that Reuters article stated, you are illustrating one of the main impediments to a peaceful solution to this conflict

 

" The fate of Jerusalem as deemed by Israel as its " eternal and indivisible " capital was the main obstacle " 

 

To a peaceful resolution to this conflict. 

 

So we are now making decisions in the 21st century based on fictional books that were written thousands of years ago ?

 

Many of the things claimed in them have no archeological or historical evidence to back them up ? 

 

The fact of the matter is that there were Palestinians living in Jerusalem and it is not unreasonable of them to want part of it as a capital of a potential nation/state.

Or so the majority of the international community believes.  

 

More words from that " heeb " I admire 

 

" It's funny how some fables became historic

When the authors clearly wrote them to be metaphoric

But people will believe anything that is written

Especially in stone or ancient scroll " 

 

Edit 

 

I missed replying to your first paragraph.

 

Simple logic and reason.

The Palestinians are fighting for a nation state of their own.

As I have pointed out, if they were allowed to have one, why would they continue to fight for something they would then have ? 

Does this not sound logical and reasonable to you ?

Edited February 11 by Ilunga

[Ilunga]

Again there's one big difference between those that support Israel, and those that support both Israel's and the Palestinians right to peacefully co - exist, with both peoples having a nation/state, the right of self determination, and to live in free and just societies.

 

The supporters of Israel cannot even come out and state they, the Palestinians have the same rights as the Israelis.

 

I can't even get Canadian citizens on a Canadian discussion board who agree with their government in regards to Hamas being a terrorist organisation, to agree with their government when it states the Israeli settlements in the occupied territories are ilegal under international law.

 

There are a couple of terms for this, I will use the most polite one, double standards.

 

[RomanPer]

27 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

As for Israel, it's my auto correct that seems to be " correctting" my spelling.

I apologise on its and my behalf.

 

Brother you brought up the fact that the Palestinians don't respect holy sites, the fact of the matter is that Israel, (had to correct my auto correct) is actually destroying holy sites.

Whatever the reason for this, the historical nature of these structures can never be replaced.

 

TBH with you, as far as I am concerned these " holy sites" in the " holy land " have caused more pain, death and trouble over the centuries, than what their historical significance is worth. 

 

And here you go, just like that Reuters article stated, you are illustrating one of the main impediments to a peaceful solution to this conflict

 

" The fate of Jerusalem as deemed by Israel as its " eternal and indivisible " capital was the main obstacle " 

 

To a peaceful resolution to this conflict. 

 

So we are now making decisions in the 21st century based on fictional books that were written thousands of years ago ?

 

Many of the things claimed in them have no archeological or historical evidence to back them up ? 

 

The fact of the matter is that there were Palestinians living in Jerusalem and it is not unreasonable of them to want part of it as a capital of a potential nation/state.

Or so the majority of the international community believes.  

 

More words from that " heeb " I admire 

 

" It's funny how some fables became historic

When the authors clearly wrote them to be metaphoric

But people will believe anything that is written

Especially in stone or ancient scroll " 

 

Edit 

 

I missed replying to your first paragraph.

 

Simple logic and reason.

The Palestinians are fighting for a nation state of their own.

As I have pointed out, if they were allowed to have one, why would they continue to fight for something they would then have ? 

Does this not sound logical and reasonable to you ?

 

Here, watch this and please tell me how it will work with your main statement:

 

[Ilunga]

2 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

Here, watch this and please tell me how it will work with your main statement:

 

 

In response to a few random Palestinians on the streets, I will post the views  hundreds of Jewish and Palestinian women that advocate for peaceful - co existence.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And you have failed to address some of the other points I made in my post you replied to. 

 

 

That you have just proved the assertion/ claim in the Reuters article that is the Jews attitude to Jerusalem that is one of the main obstacles to a peaceful resolution to this conflict.

 

 

Do you believe we should be making decisions in the 21st century on basis of the things that are stated in mythical texts that where written thousands of years ago ? 

[Optimist Prime]

4 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

And this is the heart of it.

 

Is the UN going to commit to decades of assistance and policing to ensure that Gaza develops into a peaceful neighbour? Or does this all just turn back into conflict sooner than later?

This. I am not opposed to Palestine being a soveriegn state, but I don't think they get that way by attacking the nation they need to work out the details of such with, and then the UN and the world will need to guarantee for a hundred years that the next move after statehood isn't ..."and death to israel". 

every time Gaza attacks Israel, 15 times now, they move further from their goal of statehood because they need Israel to allow that to happen, it won't happen at the barrel of a gun.

 

In short the 'all or nothing' people are ruining what could be statehood for the rest of the Palestinians

[Ilunga]

47 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

This. I am not opposed to Palestine being a soveriegn state, but I don't think they get that way by attacking the nation they need to work out the details of such with, and then the UN and the world will need to guarantee for a hundred years that the next move after statehood isn't ...and death to israel. 

every time Gaza attacks Israel, 15 times now, they move further from their goal of statehood because they need Israel to allow that to happen, it won't happen at the barrel of a gun.

 

Funny, that barrel of a gun, and tanks and missiles are what Israel is using to isolate the people of Gaza from the outside world. 

 

Also Israel is using guns and tanks in the occupied territories to oppress the Palestinians in those places.

 

Both sides have to put down their guns if a peaceful solution to this conflict is to be found. 

 

It's actually laughable that people actually believe that a stateless people, who don't even have a " formal " armed forces",  especially the most important component in modern day warfare, an airforce, can destroy a country that has the worlds 17 ranked military force, including a military air fleet that is ranked at nine among 129 air fleets.

 

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/largest-air-forces-in-the-world

Note that it is ranked higher than the RAF 

The Iron Dome anti - missile system amongst other high tech military systems.

 

Oh and I forgot a bunch of nukes that are estimated to be between 80 - 400 warheads.

 

And they, Israel are backed many powerful nations, including the most powerful nation on this planet.

 

 

What also kinda confuses me, is that Isreal is the 10th biggest arms exporter in the world 

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-ranked-worlds-10th-largest-weapons-exporter-in-past-five-years/

 

And yet they need so much military aide, $3.3 billion a year alone from the US.  

 

Human beings, we can't use the resources we have to feed ourselves, properly, look after the health care of many of our fellow citizens, even in the wealthiest society on this planet.

 

Yet we can use those resources to  kill each other, in the name of defending ourselves from ourselves.

 

Sigh.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 11 by Ilunga

[Canuck Surfer]

8 hours ago, Ilunga said:

And do you agree that east Jerusalem should be their capital ?

 

Why should Jerusalem be capital.  Particularly if you are specifying all of Jerusalem?

[Ilunga]

43 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Why should Jerusalem be capital.  Particularly if you are specifying all of Jerusalem?

 

I actually specified east Jerusalem, as you can see from the sentence you have quoted. 

 

This is what the Palestinians want and a quick Google search

 

" Most countries support that west Jerusalem and East Jerusalem should be allocated as to the Isrealis and the Palestinians, respectively; this position has been endorsed by the United Nations, the European Union and France amongst others " 

 

As for Canada, we are on Canadian discussion board 

 

https://www.international.gc.ca/world-monde/international_relations-relations_internationales/mena-moan/israeli-palestinian_policy-politique_israelo-palestinien.aspx?lang=eng

 

" Canada considers the status of Jerusalem can only be resolved as part of a general agreement of the Palestinian - Israeli dispute. Canada does not recognise Israel's unilateral annexation of East Jerusalem "

 

As for our own government, they have stated east Jerusalem and the west bank are occupied territories, and the Israeli settlements in these areas are ilegal.

 

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-08-08/ty-article/.premium/australia-to-refer-to-west-bank-east-jlem-as-occupied-israeli-settlements-as-illegal/00000189-d529-dbfc-a3bd-d5ff85940000

 

The same government reversed scomo's governments policy in regards to west Jerusalem which recognised West Jerusalem as Israel capital.

However the Albanese government echoes the Canadian governments thoughts stating 

" Jerusalem is a final status issue that should be resolved as part of any peace negotiations between Israeli and the 

Palestinian people "

Edited February 11 by Ilunga

[Canuck Surfer]

8 hours ago, Ilunga said:

This is simply untrue.

 

What I stated was & remains 100% true.

 

It does not mean there are not other contributing issues & complications. Nor do people not have a right to an opinion regarding how genuine. 

 

Example; you also stated Palestinians offered Israel peace? Discussing the Oslo accord 1993. I stated Arafat was;

 

A ) Corrupt

B ) Neither in full control, nor Arafat a legally accepted leader with a mandate to do so.

C ) If the PLO or Palestine ''gets'' credit for a peace offer, Israel who was the other half of signatories at least deserves the same credit.  

 

Then I also stated that it was exactly in the time frame that Hamas (1991-96), I'll also call them Palestinian, started a series of, I'll call them, terrorist acts. Specifically designed by Hamas to derail peace talks with Israel. AND just as importantly to undermine Arafat, the PLO and the PA / Palestinian Authority. PA 'agreed' to be the short term administrative and legal body. Long term to hold elections and usher in a national body to be a democratic country. Bombing of tourist busses, missile attacks from Gaza & the West bank, hostage taking all took place against Israelis & people visiting Israel; coordinated from Gaza & the West Bank within days of Oslo. Power battles pre Oslo; became open gang warfare between Hamas & the PLO while the corrupt PLO assigned the majority of PA profiles from their members & making business deals that suited them.

 

Your reply?   

 

Arafat tried, made significant efforts to control the ranks & hold peace. The reality was Palestinians were executing what most call terrorist attacks directly before, immediately after and ongoing.  

 

Your other reply was, and has been on virtually any point that Israel has kept stealing land.  Which is not just fundamentally true.  My own appeal has been Israel has to enforce law, stop settlement violence & theft of land. Hold those who do it to justice. Its as well documented as the missiles that still got launched from West Bank in to civilian area's, bus bombings in Israel in Israel itself, hostage taking. As point of fact neither party held to the spirit of agreements.  My point was Palestinians would have to arrest their own terrorists if Israel was expected to do so.

 

9 hours ago, Ilunga said:

I will remind you that Hamas changed their charter in 2017.

 

Did they change it again & again & again?

 

 

9 hours ago, Ilunga said:

Do you believe that the Palestinians deserve to form a viable nation/state of their own.   

 

A) Yes I do.

 

I have an observation. Such questions are what in business is called a probe leading question!  Its designed to get someone to answer in yes or no terms usually & always to frame a specific narrative. In this case belittle my viewpoint as denying Palestinians if I say no. 

 

You also asked Roman if he believed Palestinians had a right to have Jerusalem as their capital?   I offered you an open ended, versus closed ended opportunity to reply.  I see what I believe is your reply to this just tagged?  Lets see how this goes.  Posting before I read...

[Canuck Surfer]

7 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

I actually specified east Jerusalem, as you can see from the sentence you have quoted. 

Damnit, you did too.,

 

I stand awkward  

 

East Jerusalem has been offered as recently as 2006.  Knocked back by Hamas. I personally hope when it does happen; it can be a multi-cultural center.  Celebrating and making use of the spiritual and historical sites of all.

[Ilunga]

2 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

What I stated was & remains 100% true.

 

It does not mean there are not other contributing issues & complications. Nor do people not have a right to an opinion regarding how genuine. 

 

Example; you also stated Palestinians offered Israel peace? Discussing the Oslo accord 1993. I stated Arafat was;

 

A ) Corrupt

B ) Neither in full control, nor Arafat a legally accepted leader with a mandate to do so.

C ) If the PLO or Palestine ''gets'' credit for a peace offer, Israel who was the other half of signatories at least deserves the same credit.  

 

Then I also stated that it was exactly in the time frame that Hamas (1991-96), I'll also call them Palestinian, started a series of, I'll call them, terrorist acts. Specifically designed by Hamas to derail peace talks with Israel. AND just as importantly to undermine Arafat, the PLO and the PA / Palestinian Authority. PA 'agreed' to be the short term administrative and legal body. Long term to hold elections and usher in a national body to be a democratic country. Bombing of tourist busses, missile attacks from Gaza & the West bank, hostage taking all took place against Israelis & people visiting Israel; coordinated from Gaza & the West Bank within days of Oslo. Power battles pre Oslo; became open gang warfare between Hamas & the PLO while the corrupt PLO assigned the majority of PA profiles from their members & making business deals that suited them.

 

Your reply?   

 

Arafat tried, made significant efforts to control the ranks & hold peace. The reality was Palestinians were executing what most call terrorist attacks directly before, immediately after and ongoing.  

 

Your other reply was, and has been on virtually any point that Israel has kept stealing land.  Which is not just fundamentally true.  My own appeal has been Israel has to enforce law, stop settlement violence & theft of land. Hold those who do it to justice. Its as well documented as the missiles that still got launched from West Bank in to civilian area's, bus bombings in Israel in Israel itself, hostage taking. As point of fact neither party held to the spirit of agreements.  My point was Palestinians would have to arrest their own terrorists if Israel was expected to do so.

 

 

Did they change it again & again & again?

 

 

 

A) Yes I do.

 

I have an observation. Such questions are what in business is called a probe leading question!  Its designed to get someone to answer in yes or no terms usually & always to frame a specific narrative. In this case belittle my viewpoint as denying Palestinians if I say no. 

 

You also asked Roman if he believed Palestinians had a right to have Jerusalem as their capital?   I offered you an open ended, versus closed ended opportunity to reply.  I see what I believe is your reply to this just tagged?  Lets see how this goes.  Posting before I read...

 

Your original statement I was replying to was

 

" The larger objection to a two state solution is the Palestinians people themselves. " 

 

This is not true, there is mistrust on both sides.

There has been violence on both sides.

 

In regards to that violence, those figures from 2008 - 2020 speak volumes. 

 

 

Over 20 times as many Palestinians killed and over 20 times as many Palestinians injured compared to Israelis.

 

We are talking 120,000 people killed or injured on the Palestinian side.

Compared to under 6000 people on the Isreali side.

As I stated, my heart goes out the families of the victims of both sides however it's going out to a shitload more Palestinians, as evidenced by those numbers.

 

Two of the biggest impediments to peace as that article noted, and as anyone who has followed this conflict knows, the ilegal settlements in the west bank and Jerusalem and the status of Jerusalem itself.

 

The peace that has been offered is not on the terms that the Palestinians want, and as I have posted most of the world agrees with them. 

 

I am sorry if my forthright approach makes you think I am belittling you.

I have never knowingly belittled anyone in life full stop.

 

I hardly even do this in regards to PO1135809 and Putin, people who I despise, however I don't believe in putting to much shit on them.

 

And I did acknowledge the Palestinians acts of terror which usually followed provocative acts by the Isrealis.

This doesn't make them right, but it illustrates it wasn't just the Palestinians that were screwing the pooch in regards to the peace process. 

 

Again in relation to Israelis stealing land 

The settlements in the west bank and east Jerusalem are illegal under international law.

Article 49 of the fourth Geneva convention.

Both Canada and Australia are signortories and have ratified that convention.

 

And as you have just admitted

" As a point of fact neither party has held to the spirit of the agreements "

 

Ergo it's not the Palestinians that are the larger objection to a state solution.

It's both sides that contribute to this. 

 

As for Israel arresting terrorists, what do you call the acts of settler violence that are often aided and abbetted by the Israeli armed forces ?

Aren't those guys terrorists ?

I find their actions terrifying.

Same as Hamas' actions.

 

 

Can't you see that what you are accusing the Palestinians off, the Isrealis do themselves.

 

As I have stated so many times, this a continuous circle of hatred fueled by trauma on both sides.

 

[Ilunga]

34 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Damnit, you did too.,

 

I stand awkward  

 

East Jerusalem has been offered as recently as 2006.  Knocked back by Hamas. I personally hope when it does happen; it can be a multi-cultural center.  Celebrating and making use of the spiritual and historical sites of all.

 

No need to stand awkward, you have done nothing wrong.  

 

Hamas are fucked, I have already stated they should be taken out of the equation.

 

There are so many Isrealis that feel the same way about Jerusalem.

Even a Canadian of Jewish descent on this board.

First he stated he didn't want the Palestinians to have any part of Jerusalem, something to do with respect of religious sites.

 

When I questioned him more he started referring to mythical religious texts that where written thousands of years ago.

 

[Canuck Surfer]

7 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

Can't you see that what you are accusing the Palestinians off, the Isrealis do themselves.

Probe leading question?

 

Here is an open ended one; What concessions should Palestine consider now?  I countered Israel should give back settler land a long time ago; prosecute those who engage in violence.

[Ilunga]

11 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Probe leading question?

 

Here is an open ended one; What concessions should Palestine consider now?  I countered Israel should give back settler land a long time ago; prosecute those who engage in violence.

 

I will ask you this, how much land and resources are needed to form a viable nation state ?

 

I was just reading that Isreal was created from 77 percent of the territory that was known as Palestine. 

 

What I believe should happen is what the international community wants to happen.

A Palestinian state along the lines of pre 1968 boarders.

 

I have already posted that Hamas changed their charter in 2017 to include that stipulation.

Don't get me wrong, they have to go.

 

Palestinians have to not just renounce violence, they will have to enforce that.

Punish those who engage in violence.

I believe they will need some help from an independent third party.

Don't fuck with not just their neighbours but anyone.

 

I would love the Scandinavian countries to be on board with this if they are willing.

Big time admiration for the way the run their societies and carry themselves on a global basis. 

 

Live my golden rule, treat others, including each other, with dignity, respect and compassion.

 

Apart from that what else do the Palestinians have to do apart from build a prosperous, just and free society ?

 

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

3 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

No need to stand awkward, you have done nothing wrong.  

 

Hamas are fucked, I have already stated they should be taken out of the equation.

 

There are so many Isrealis that feel the same way about Jerusalem.

Even a Canadian of Jewish descent on this board.

First he stated he didn't want the Palestinians to have any part of Jerusalem, something to do with respect of religious sites.

 

When I questioned him more he started referring to mythical religious texts that where written thousands of years ago.

 

 

The Quran is a 'bible' to Muslims and used to form doctrine. A guide for their lifestyle to this day, every day based on its teachings.  Doctrine intended or otherwise spun, very much a modern document.

 

Jerusalem BTW is quoted by Roman correctly as holding a Jewish majority for many hundreds of years. Before Zionism. Before and after WWI, WWII, 1947 (see what I did there), not surprisingly since. As well as having historical places of reverence for Jews. Then there is a Christian minority after a significant Muslim population, and other faiths. If freedoms are important, should people have religious freedom? That East Jerusalem 'has been on the table' I suggest is a sign Israel will compromise?     

 

How do you take fucked Hamas out of the equation? I see above invite 3rd parties, Scandinavia mentioned above. As many groups as possible IMO, without question including Palestinian and non Palestinian Arab volunteers. Provost way back when, early here, also suggested pre 1967. I don't have an exact answer.  A willing discussion is better than no discussion. Willing to take Hamas out, and how to take Hamas out is the central question of the day...

 

I am not excusing Israel either.  I point out that what they are doing looks, if we're being honest, like what seems all surrounding, not just immediately surrounding either, Arabic / Islamic countries and territories are doing.  Isolating themselves defensively in lines clearly delineated along ethnic and religious designations.  Purging or taking over the territories of competing religious and ethnic groups depending on who is in power, to expand.    

 

 

 

 

   

[Canuck Surfer]

2 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

I point out that what they are doing looks, if we're being honest, like what seems all surrounding,

I apologize; looks pre 'having bombed all of Gaza' like surrounding Islamic conflicts...

 

Although Aleppo dwarfs Gaza for civilian deaths. Most other purges have been less obvious, where not less brutal.