Hamas attacking Israel

[The Lock]

8 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

its weird to me that you would blame Isreal for a terror attack. No one but Hamas is responsible. "should have never been allowed" is not the stance you have with a peaceful neighbour. 

 

Well, I'm pretty neutral in this, but if you really want my opinion, I think both are responsible in their own ways. It's a lose-lose war.

Edited February 12 by The Lock

[Super19]

10 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

its weird to me that you would blame Isreal for a terror attack. No one but Hamas is responsible. "should have never been allowed" is not the stance you have with a peaceful neighbour. 

Yeah Hamas is definitely responsible, I'm just saying if I was an Israeli how tf did Oct 7 happen. Paragliders man. And probably some white toyota trucks. Undetected. 5 hours. And returned back in to Gaza with hostages. Like wtf? 

 

I can see the worry regarding future attacks after an Oct 7. But as I pointed out earlier, expanding the border and creating a buffer zone to the border would have been a more appropriate response vs a war against an ideology and fucking Gaza up - and creating escalations with Yemen, Hezbollah and at ICJ. Also, Israel has killed more hostages than they've rescued. 

 

It's not easy to cheer Israel on right now. No matter how you spin it.

 

And this all doesn't even mention the fact I think Israel have been shitty neighbours to the Palestinians.

[Bob Long]

22 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Yeah Hamas is definitely responsible, I'm just saying if I was an Israeli how tf did Oct 7 happen. Paragliders man. And probably some white toyota trucks. Undetected. 5 hours. And returned back in to Gaza with hostages. Like wtf? 

 

I can see the worry regarding future attacks after an Oct 7. But as I pointed out earlier, expanding the border and creating a buffer zone to the border would have been a more appropriate response vs a war against an ideology and fucking Gaza up - and creating escalations with Yemen, Hezbollah and at ICJ. Also, Israel has killed more hostages than they've rescued. 

 

It's not easy to cheer Israel on right now. No matter how you spin it.

 

And this all doesn't even mention the fact I think Israel have been shitty neighbours to the Palestinians.

 

Some for sure, the land takeovers need to end yesterday.

[Bob Long]

27 minutes ago, The Lock said:

 

Well, I'm pretty neutral in this, but if you really want my opinion, I think both are responsible in their own ways. It's a lose-lose war.

 

So how does it end?

[The Lock]

1 minute ago, Bob Long said:

So how does it end?

 

Not how I'd like it to end. I'll tell you that much.

 

If it were my choice, the war would end immediately, a declaration of peace would happen and Palestinians and Israelis would be able to live in harmony.

 

Anyone have a mind control device that I can barrow?

[Optimist Prime]

1 hour ago, The Lock said:

 

But in killing innocents while killing the Hamas, they're just going to create more Hamas. I said this above to Taxi but I'll post it here and elaborate on it some more....

 

Imagine you're a kid going through that Hamas run school system only to have a parent, a sibling, or more, killed by the Israelis. What's that going to do to you mentally? Suddenly what you're "told" in school is going to be shown almost as proof of Israelis "being bad". Sure, the Israelis killed the Hamas, but they also created more Hamas in the process because they're killing loved ones in the process.

 

The US has literally warned the Israelis of this happening. Even some Israeli strategists within their own government has warned of this. I'm not just saying this out of thin air.

 

(Edited for easier reading hopefully)

upwards of 80% of UNRWA in Gaza were Hamas people, I think that on Oct 6th a LOT of these kids were growing up to be Hamas anyway. I am not arguing that the pain and suffering and literal war in the streets around them isn't reinforcing the brainwashing, but the brainwashing was already long ago a fait complete. If Israel did nothing on Oct 7th and thereafter, the same situation would await these kids. It looks to us like this is horrific and radicalizing; but my theory is they are already radicalized and that is why the ways and means must be destroyed for a safer future for Israel AND for Gazans. Leaving the command, control and infrastructure in place AND having these kids grow up to be the future army of Hamas would be just plain suicidal on the part of Israel. 

 

As it is, Gaza will be conquered and pacified by force, and I am hopeful a future international Coalition rather than the IDF will literally be on every street corner preventing a rebuild of the arms and infrastructure of terror.

[Canuck Surfer]

https://www.msn.com/en-au/money/markets/oil-starts-week-lower-after-israel-says-concluded-gaza-strikes/ar-BB1i844x?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=92d6d5f5a38d44608f4c616c0c06239d&ei=54

Oil starts week lower after Israel says 'concluded' Gaza strikes

 

[The Lock]

Just now, Optimist Prime said:

upwards of 80% of UNRWA in Gaza were Hamas people, I think that on Oct 6th a LOT of these kids were growing up to be Hamas anyway. I am not arguing that the pain and suffering and literal war in the streets around them isn't reinforcing the brainwashing, but the brainwashing was already long ago a fait complete. If Israel did nothing on Oct 7th and thereafter, the same situation would await these kids. It looks to us like this is horrific and radicalizing; but my theory is they are already radicalized and that is why the ways and means must be destroyed for a safer future for Israel AND for Gazans. Leaving the command, control and infrastructure in place AND having these kids grow up to be the future army of Hamas would be just plain suicidal on the part of Israel. 

 

Of course. There's definately some of that happening beforehand. Unfortunately, all of this shows the likelihood of Hamas continuing after this is far more probable than Hamas being gone for good. Furthermore, in the scenario Hamas does prove to be gone for good, it wouldn't prevent other anti-Israeli organizations from appearing.

 

Furthermore, just because you're changing the command, control, and infrastructure does not mean you're changing the minds of the ones already affected... which is almost, if not all of, the entire Gaza population.

 

And for the record, I want Hamas gone too. I think they're a bad stain on the Palestinians who should have rights just as much as Israelis. I just don't see a scenario where Hamas is entirely gone from this.

[Optimist Prime]

^ agreed, but there is a scenario where there are no more rockets in Gaza ready to be fired from the roofs of Hospitals, and no more bunkers and tunnels to hide the terrorists in. The most likely outcome will be an authority figure on every street corner, checkpoints and seismic equipment every block to ensure that the weapons that were used by Terrorists and the places they fought from are not available to the population of Gaza for several generations. I think people are struggling to realize that Gaza is being conquered right now. This isn't a hit and go home mission. This is a mission with a long term affect to it. That long term effect will save Israeli Lives from things like what happened on Oct 7th. 

 

The hard part will not be winning the war, it will winning the peace: how does the world at large, and Israel and even the PA and Gazans themselves go about undoing the radicalization of an entire people? 

[The Lock]

19 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

^ agreed, but there is a scenario where there are no more rockets in Gaza ready to be fired from the roofs of Hospitals, and no more bunkers and tunnels to hide the terrorists in. The most likely outcome will be an authority figure on every street corner, checkpoints and seismic equipment every block to ensure that the weapons that were used by Terrorists and the places they fought from are not available to the population of Gaza for several generations. I think people are struggling to realize that Gaza is being conquered right now. This isn't a hit and go home mission. This is a mission with a long term affect to it. That long term effect will save Israeli Lives from things like what happened on Oct 7th. 

 

The hard part will not be winning the war, it will winning the peace: how does the world at large, and Israel and even the PA and Gazans themselves go about undoing the radicalization of an entire people? 

 

It's likely too late for this, at least in the short term; however, In my opinion, you do the opposite. Instead of using bullets, show compassion. 1 side can make a move of respect. Obviously, this is easier said than done. It's evident there are also Israelis who attack Palestinians, so there are people on both sides radicalized which would make this more difficult. However, some will be affected positively by it and this could also give you a few allies within the other side.

 

Overall though, I think education would be huge. Teach peace basically. Again not easy, but a viable long-term solution if the notion of moving towards peace is taught.

Edited February 12 by The Lock

[The Lock]

@Optimist Prime So there's a small village in Israel near the West Bank called Neve Shalom. It's a small village where both Palestinians and Israelis live in peace and acceptance of each other. There's also apparently a massive waiting list to join the village from both sides.

 

So it is possible for peace to happen and it's evident there are groups from both sides who want this peace to happen. It's just a long ways away at this point unfortunately.

Edited February 12 by The Lock

[Boudrias]

2 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

they can end Hamas ability to kill Israeli peace activists at a festival, they are in fact doing so right now. It is terrible that hamas continues to hide among civilians even in Rafah now, where two hostages were being held amongst hundreds of civilians in a small space: liberated by the IDF yesterday, that is crazy to me... the people should be turning over Hamas agents whereever they find them to the IDF to save lives, but the almost complete radicalization of Gaza means the IDF will literally have to root Hamas out from every house, hole and hill. The fact that they can do so is why so many Gazan sympathizers and anti-Isreali types are screaming from the hilltops: another few months and Hamas will cease to exist in its current form. I think that is achievable, and so is destroying the 300 miles of underground bunkers and tunnels: at least it sets the terrorists back a few decades. I imagine any future peace will demand non Gazan oversight of Gaza for probably a generation to ensure those tunnels don't get rebuilt and to keep the militant organizing down to extremely low rumblings. Obviously Hamas and Islamic Jihad will work to counter this inevitability, but in my opinion it is futile. Better they surrender and save lives, only they are convinced Martyrdom is the way forward, almost to a man. It is tough horrible work but it needs to be done.

A lot of those Hamas fighters will be among the refugees being transferred to safe areas by the IDF. They might not have their weapons but I suspect there are staches thru all of Gaza.  

[Taxi]

2 hours ago, Super19 said:

Yeah Hamas is definitely responsible, I'm just saying if I was an Israeli how tf did Oct 7 happen. Paragliders man. And probably some white toyota trucks. Undetected. 5 hours. And returned back in to Gaza with hostages. Like wtf? 

 

I can see the worry regarding future attacks after an Oct 7. But as I pointed out earlier, expanding the border and creating a buffer zone to the border would have been a more appropriate response vs a war against an ideology and fucking Gaza up - and creating escalations with Yemen, Hezbollah and at ICJ. Also, Israel has killed more hostages than they've rescued. 

 

It's not easy to cheer Israel on right now. No matter how you spin it.

 

And this all doesn't even mention the fact I think Israel have been shitty neighbours to the Palestinians.

 

I think you're really underestimating the ability of not just Hamas, but all of the terrorist militias that surround Israel, have to cause major damage. Israel is a tiny country, with long exposed borders. Where do they build all these "buffers". They are supposed to spend all of their resources patrolling these borders? If they have troops constantly lined up along the border with Gaza, that means pulling troops away from the border with Hezbollah. That's a big part of how Hamas pulled this off, Israel had troops in the West Bank to try and deal with the "Lion's Den".

 

Hamas was able to infiltrate Israel with an attack force of around 5,000 militants. What happens when they manage to gather 20,000?

 

The idea that Israel should just be expected to manage all of these militant groups on its borders just isn't reasonable or sustainable. Even then, if Israel cuts Gaza off, more than it already was, they get accused of collective punishment, apartheid, and creating an "open air prison". 

[RomanPer]

1 hour ago, The Lock said:

@Optimist Prime So there's a small village in Israel near the West Bank called Neve Shalom. It's a small village where both Palestinians and Israelis live in peace and acceptance of each other. There's also apparently a massive waiting list to join the village from both sides.

 

So it is possible for peace to happen and it's evident there are groups from both sides who want this peace to happen. It's just a long ways away at this point unfortunately.

 

There are a lot of places like this in Israel, beyond Neve Shalom. Lod, Akko, Haifa, etc.

[Taxi]

13 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

There are a lot of places like this in Israel, beyond Neve Shalom. Lod, Akko, Haifa, etc.

 

There are about 2 million Arabs living in Israel. There have definitely been problems, but most of the time they live totally peacefully besides each other. The Christians have done especially well and have lower rates of poverty and higher rates of education than Jewish or Muslim Israelis. 

[Ilunga]

2 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

upwards of 80% of UNRWA in Gaza were Hamas people, I think that on Oct 6th a LOT of these kids were growing up to be Hamas anyway. I am not arguing that the pain and suffering and literal war in the streets around them isn't reinforcing the brainwashing, but the brainwashing was already long ago a fait complete. If Israel did nothing on Oct 7th and thereafter, the same situation would await these kids. It looks to us like this is horrific and radicalizing; but my theory is they are already radicalized and that is why the ways and means must be destroyed for a safer future for Israel AND for Gazans. Leaving the command, control and infrastructure in place AND having these kids grow up to be the future army of Hamas would be just plain suicidal on the part of Israel. 

 

As it is, Gaza will be conquered and pacified by force, and I am hopeful a future international Coalition rather than the IDF will literally be on every street corner preventing a rebuild of the arms and infrastructure of terror.

 

 

80 percent of UNRWA were Hamas people ?

 

Not according to this Israeli source 

 

"Approximately 10 percent of UNRWA employees in Gaza have ties to Hamas Islamic Jihad WSJ Reports "

 

https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/2024-01-29/ty-article/wsj-about-10-percent-of-unrwa-employees-in-gaza-have-ties-to-hamas-islamic-jihad/0000018d-5565-d8cc-a1fd-576f89eb0000

 

Another Israeli source

 

" Israeli Intel shows that 10 percent of UNRWA workers in Gaza have ties to Terror Groups "

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-intel-shows-10-of-unrwa-workers-in-gaza-have-ties-to-terror-groups-report/

 

 

[Ilunga]

7 minutes ago, Taxi said:

 

There are about 2 million Arabs living in Israel. There have definitely been problems, but most of the time they live totally peacefully besides each other. The Christians have done especially well and have lower rates of poverty and higher rates of education than Jewish or Muslim Israelis. 

 

 

Still waiting for you to admit you were wrong.

 

You basically called me a liar.

 

So an apology would be appropriate as well.

[Taxi]

1 minute ago, Ilunga said:

 

 

Still waiting for you to admit you were wrong.

 

You basically called me a liar.

 

So an apology would be appropriate as well.

You can keep waiting. You are way off base on a lot of your views. You have a severely biased view against Israelis and many of the facts you base those views on are entirely wrong.

[Ilunga]

36 minutes ago, Taxi said:

 

There are about 2 million Arabs living in Israel. There have definitely been problems, but most of the time they live totally peacefully besides each other. The Christians have done especially well and have lower rates of poverty and higher rates of education than Jewish or Muslim Israelis. 

 

Really ?

 

Isreali source 

 

" Systematic Witch Hunt What Persecution of Arab - Israelis Looks Like Amid Gaza War "

 

" Arrests, interrogations, firings, expulsion from college - Arab citizens are being targeted  Israeli security officials and even by their own co-workers in a recent wave of incidents that threaten to tear apart the delicate fabric of Israeli society "

 

 

 

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-02/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/systematic-witch-hunt-what-persecution-of-israeli-arabs-looks-like-amid-gaza-war/0000018b-90db-db7e-af9b-fbdb254e0000

 

 

Edited February 12 by Ilunga

[Ilunga]

8 minutes ago, Taxi said:

You can keep waiting. You are way off base on a lot of your views. You have a severely biased view against Israelis and many of the facts you base those views on are entirely wrong.

 

You accused me of something I didn't do and you don't have the courage to admit you were wrong.

 

People who know my posting history know my bias is that all people have the right to live in free and just societies.

To be treated equally.

I have quoted MLK many times

 

That I judge a person by the content of their heart, not the colour of the skin.

 

As I have stated many times, in many threads one of the few things I hate, hate is such a waste of emotion, is racism 

 

I post a lot of facts/ evidence like my reply to your post above this.

If you don't agree with those facts/evidence provide facts/evidence to counter my claims.

 

I also post rational, logical arguments to support my position that both the Israeli and Palestinian people have the right to live in free and just societies and have the right to self determination.

 

It's incumbent on anyone that disagrees with that view, they provide rational, logical arguments as to why they don't agree with this.

 

 

 

You accuse me of bias ?

 

I have always wondered if you are one of these people 

 

" Israel to pay students to defend it online "

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/08/14/israel-students-social-media/2651715/

 

 

[Optimist Prime]

1 hour ago, Ilunga said:

 

 

80 percent of UNRWA were Hamas people ?

 

Not according to this Israeli source 

 

"Approximately 10 percent of UNRWA employees in Gaza have ties to Hamas Islamic Jihad WSJ Reports "

 

https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/2024-01-29/ty-article/wsj-about-10-percent-of-unrwa-employees-in-gaza-have-ties-to-hamas-islamic-jihad/0000018d-5565-d8cc-a1fd-576f89eb0000

 

Another Israeli source

 

" Israeli Intel shows that 10 percent of UNRWA workers in Gaza have ties to Terror Groups "

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-intel-shows-10-of-unrwa-workers-in-gaza-have-ties-to-terror-groups-report/

 

 

shrug, my research from about 3 months back indicates 30 to 80%. I don't care if you wanna say 10 sure lets say ten.

[Ilunga]

3 hours ago, The Lock said:

 

It's likely too late for this, at least in the short term; however, In my opinion, you do the opposite. Instead of using bullets, show compassion. 1 side can make a move of respect. Obviously, this is easier said than done. It's evident there are also Israelis who attack Palestinians, so there are people on both sides radicalized which would make this more difficult. However, some will be affected positively by it and this could also give you a few allies within the other side.

 

Overall though, I think education would be huge. Teach peace basically. Again not easy, but a viable long-term solution if the notion of moving towards peace is taught.

 

Big time respect for you brother, for you thoughts on compassion.

 

I have also posted thoughts along these lines.

 

" You can't kill an ideology with a bullet, you can only kill it with a better idea " 

 

Queen Rania of Jordan 

 

I am a voracious reader.

I am very lucky to have a couple of second hand book shops reasonably close to home.

 

I posted this article a week or two ago.

I learnt of this book from this article.

I have asked one of those shops to get a hold of a copy for me. 

 

It's The Ideology; How to Defeat Islamist Terrorism Once and For All

 

https://potomacinstitute.org/reports/39-books/117-new-release-it-s-the-ideology-how-to-defeat-islamist-terrorism-once-and-for-all-2

 

" Kill that ideology and we kill the terror that it breeds. But we cannot kill ideas with bombs and bullets - we can only kill them with better ideas " 

 

" Empathy is dying and so are we "

 

https://www.thesmujournal.ca/editor/empathy-is-dying-and-so-are-we

 

" However there appears to be a decline in human empathy over the years. For example one psychology study surveyed American University students and reported a 48 percent decrease in between levels of empathy between 1979 and 2009. Imagine that: this sample portrayed half the level of empathy they once had 30 years ago. Overall scientists are reporting a generational decrease in empathy and a rise in narcissism around the world, particularly in the west. " 

 

At the same time we see an unprecedented and alarming rise in xenophobia racism and misogyny around the world that has even generated the concerned attention of the United Nations. "

 

 " As our empathy decreases we pay less attention to others around the globe who are suffering, provide less support, and carry on with our lives while millions die. "

 

" In a 2011 study researchers reported strong desensitisation effects only to violent media content. As humans we innately react to violence with fear. With repeated exposure to violence, the fear reaction decreases in strength to habituation to the violence. In turn we lose the adverse reactions and become desensitised meaning we don't respond with anxious arousal in response to media violence. Another study found that desensitisation to violence in the news led to reduced emotional reactivity and diminished empathy. When you respond less emotionally, it's hard to understand other people's emotions and imagine what they are experiencing. "

 

[Ilunga]

15 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

shrug, my research from about 3 months back indicates 30 to 80%. I don't care if you wanna say 10 sure lets say ten.

 

Sigh....

 

It's not a matter what I want to say, it's a matter of what the facts are.

 

I researched your claim and that is the information I came up with.

 

I am not saying this, Israeli sources are stating this.

[Bob Long]

1 hour ago, Optimist Prime said:

shrug, my research from about 3 months back indicates 30 to 80%. I don't care if you wanna say 10 sure lets say ten.

 

Imagine getting on a bus, and the sign says "only 10% terrorists"

[Ilunga]

4 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

^ agreed, but there is a scenario where there are no more rockets in Gaza ready to be fired from the roofs of Hospitals, and no more bunkers and tunnels to hide the terrorists in. The most likely outcome will be an authority figure on every street corner, checkpoints and seismic equipment every block to ensure that the weapons that were used by Terrorists and the places they fought from are not available to the population of Gaza for several generations. I think people are struggling to realize that Gaza is being conquered right now. This isn't a hit and go home mission. This is a mission with a long term affect to it. That long term effect will save Israeli Lives from things like what happened on Oct 7th. 

 

The hard part will not be winning the war, it will winning the peace: how does the world at large, and Israel and even the PA and Gazans themselves go about undoing the radicalization of an entire people? 

 

I have always stated that the Germans and the Japanese lost the war, but " won " the peace.

The example I am making is the success of their economies post WW2

 

One of the big reseasons for this is the strong work ethic those people's had/ have.

Another is that especially the Germans were/are great design engineers and build quality products.

 

The Japanese took others ideas in regards to products and  manufacturing processes, and made better, cheaper products than their western counter parts.  

 

The success of their economies led to a better quality of life for the " average " person in those countries.

 

 

In regards to the Palestinians, as I keep stating we have to replace their current Ideology with better ideas that provide them with a better quality of life. 

Give people hope and you will change their lives, and their Ideology.