Hamas attacking Israel

[StrayDog]

55 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Sigh....

 

It's not a matter what I want to say, it's a matter of what the facts are.

 

I researched your claim and that is the information I came up with.

 

I am not saying this, Israeli sources are stating this.

Does it matter what the actual percentage is though? The fact is: the UNRWA was infiltrated by Hamas, which means they were able to manipulate what should have been a neutral party to their own ends; which included UN members taking part in the Oct 7 attacks. It also makes suspect any moneys given to the UNRWA and what those moneys went towards.

 

[Ilunga]

Just now, StrayDog said:

Does it matter what the actual percentage is though? The fact is: the UNRWA was infiltrated by Hamas, which means they were able to manipulate what should have been a neutral party to their own ends; which included UN members taking part in the Oct 7 attacks. It also makes suspect any moneys given to the UNRWA and what those moneys went towards.

 

 

Mate, I love these things called facts.

 

There is a massive difference between 10 percent and 80 percent especially when you are talking about 12,000 people.

 

That's a difference of 7000 people.

 

I guess it gets down to whether you value the truth or not. 

 

Would you like to be called a Terrorist if you weren't one ?

Especially if it involved losing your job ?

 

And this is not the only incident of misinformation that has been put out there by Israel.

 

Don't get me wrong, Hamas does the same thing.

 

Here is some of the Bullshit Hamas has propagated.

 

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-gaza-misinformation-fact-check-e58f9ab8696309305c3ea2bfb269258e

 

 

I think it was @Gurn that first used this adage, in this thread 

 

" In war, truth is the first casualty "

[Ilunga]

8 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

Oh, what a beautiful attempt to hide your antisemitism by using the word "Zionists" instead of "Jews". You can fool many, but not me. I've seen your type plenty in my life.

 

I could quite easily call you an anti- semite due to some your views on the Palestinians in regards to defending Israel's actions against them.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but have you ever defended the human rights of the Palestinians ?

 

You do realise that the Palestinians are semites themselves ? 

 

Why are people, who defend the human rights of the Palestinian people, labelled by some as anti-Semites ?

 

Especially when some of those people defend the human rights of the Israeli/Jewish people themselves ? 

 

Me, as is commonly known, defend the human rights of all the people I share this planet with.

[StrayDog]

47 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Mate, I love these things called facts.

 

There is a massive difference between 10 percent and 80 percent especially when you are talking about 12,000 people.

 

That's a difference of 7000 people.

 

I guess it gets down to whether you value the truth or not. 

 

Would you like to be called a Terrorist if you weren't one ?

Especially if it involved losing your job ?

 

And this is not the only incident of misinformation that has been put out there by Israel.

 

Don't get me wrong, Hamas does the same thing.

 

 

Here is some of the Bullshit Hamas has propagated.

 

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-gaza-misinformation-fact-check-e58f9ab8696309305c3ea2bfb269258e

 

 

I think it was @Gurn that first used this adage, in this thread 

 

" In war, truth is the first casualty "

First off, thanks for questioning if I value the truth of not. Or maybe just implying you value it more than I do.

Second, I honestly don't care what the percentage is. The fact is they were in and now, yes, everyone is suspect. That sucks for those who are innocent but that happens when you get bad actors infiltrating what should be a charitable organization. The percentage I'm more interested in is percentage of money that was funneled from purchasing food and medicines for Gazans and that instead went to Hamas. Because 10% of people can manipulate far more than 10% of money depending on where they're placed. 

[RomanPer]

1 hour ago, Ilunga said:

 

Mate, I love these things called facts.

 

There is a massive difference between 10 percent and 80 percent especially when you are talking about 12,000 people.

 

That's a difference of 7000 people.

 

I guess it gets down to whether you value the truth or not. 

 

Would you like to be called a Terrorist if you weren't one ?

Especially if it involved losing your job ?

 

And this is not the only incident of misinformation that has been put out there by Israel.

 

Don't get me wrong, Hamas does the same thing.

 

 

Here is some of the Bullshit Hamas has propagated.

 

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-gaza-misinformation-fact-check-e58f9ab8696309305c3ea2bfb269258e

 

 

I think it was @Gurn that first used this adage, in this thread 

 

" In war, truth is the first casualty "

 

Now you are just being argumentative. There's a good saying about it - "event 1000 flies will not convince me that shit is tasty". The earlier post about "just 10% terrorists on the bus" is a great point also. The fact is - UNRWA can't be trusted. Period. Everything else is semantics.

[RomanPer]

28 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

I could quite easily call you an anti- semite due to some your views on the Palestinians in regards to defending Israel's actions against them.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but have you ever defended the human rights of the Palestinians ?

 

You do realise that the Palestinians are semites themselves ? 

 

Why are people, who defend the human rights of the Palestinian people, labelled by some as anti-Semites ?

 

Especially when some of those people defend the human rights of the Israeli/Jewish people themselves ? 

 

Me, as is commonly known, defend the human rights of all the people I share this planet with.

 

Here we go, another pointless utopian grandstanding... Go read through all my posts in this thread to know what my position is. Just don't add to it your own interpretation.

[Ilunga]

2 hours ago, StrayDog said:

First off, thanks for questioning if I value the truth of not. Or maybe just implying you value it more than I do.

Second, I honestly don't care what the percentage is. The fact is they were in and now, yes, everyone is suspect. That sucks for those who are innocent but that happens when you get bad actors infiltrating what should be a charitable organization. The percentage I'm more interested in is percentage of money that was funneled from purchasing food and medicines for Gazans and that instead went to Hamas. Because 10% of people can manipulate far more than 10% of money depending on where they're placed. 

 

I am not implying anything except for the fact that I value the truth.

 

So just to be clear,because I don't want to offend you (seriously), do you believe that a majority of people should pay the price for the actions of a few ?

 

We are not just labelling these people as criminals, being labelled a terrorist is a far more serious accusation.

 

Would you like this to happen to you if you were innocent ?

I certainly wouldn't. 

 

If you lost your job, and more importantly had your good name questioned how would you feel ?

 

This is exactly what that article I posted about empathy was about.

Putting yourself in other people's shoes.

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, RomanPer said:

 

Now you are just being argumentative. There's a good saying about it - "event 1000 flies will not convince me that shit is tasty". The earlier post about "just 10% terrorists on the bus" is a great point also. The fact is - UNRWA can't be trusted. Period. Everything else is semantics.

 

I post facts and I am just being argumentative....sigh 

 

I posted facts from 2 Isreali sources in response to a claim made by another.

 

I made no judgement nor did I try to justify, the actions of the 10 percent that have links to Hamas, or even the UNRWA itself. 

 

It's like living in an alternative universe where facts, reason and logic don't seem to matter.

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, RomanPer said:

 

Here we go, another pointless utopian grandstanding... Go read through all my posts in this thread to know what my position is. Just don't add to it your own interpretation.

 

You know what is said when people make a discussion personal instead of sticking to the topic at hand.

 

You labelled a person an anti-Semite, that's a serious accusation. 

If you said that to my face, I am going to be pretty pissed to say the least.

 

Now you have labelled me argumentative, on a discussion board that is pure gold.

 

Now you are accusing me of grandstanding ?

 

Why are you making this personal ?

 

When I made the mistake of getting a bit personal with @Bob Long, I apologised, twice.

 

This is a 378 page thread, were a discussion has been going on for over 4 months.

I can't remember everything that is posted.

As I have explained I have trouble with my memory due to the amount of serious concussions I have experienced in my life.

Are you going to make a personal issue out of this ?

 

I simply asked for clarification in regards to your views on the human rights of the Palestinians.

 

 

 

 

[Ilunga]

This thread brings out the worst in people.

 

I have defended both the Israelis and Palestinians right to live in free and just societies.

I have defended all peoples human rights, on this and the old board for years.

 

I am fucking sick and tired of the personal attacks and slurs on my character.

 

I am fucking Autistic.

How that expresses itself in relation to how I hold a discussion is that I am blunt, forthright and I speak my mind.

If this offends people I apologise.

 

I am unfailing polite, have virtually never made it really personal with another member. 

Express compassion and empathy for others.

 

What you see is what you get with me.

I will say to your face, what I state on this discussion board.

 

 

 

 

[Super19]

2 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

Now you are just being argumentative. There's a good saying about it - "event 1000 flies will not convince me that shit is tasty". The earlier post about "just 10% terrorists on the bus" is a great point also. The fact is - UNRWA can't be trusted. Period. Everything else is semantics.

Bollocks. 1,000 Zionists convince you that shit is justified.

[Super19]

19 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

This thread brings out the worst in people.

 

I have defended both the Israelis and Palestinians right to live in free and just societies.

I have defended all peoples human rights, on this and the old board for years.

 

I am fucking sick and tired of the personal attacks and slurs on my character.

 

I am fucking Autistic.

How that expresses itself in relation to how I hold a discussion is that I am blunt, forthright and I speak my mind.

If this offends people I apologise.

 

I am unfailing polite, have virtually never made it really personal with another member. 

Express compassion and empathy for others.

 

What you see is what you get with me.

I will say to your face, what I state on this discussion board.

 

 

 

 

You're the best poster ITT. 

[RomanPer]

35 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Bollocks. 1,000 Zionists convince you that shit is justified.

 

They don’t have to, I am one of them.

[Canuck Surfer]

11 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

Imagine getting on a bus, and the sign says "only 10% terrorists"

 

Probably easier to get rid of guns there.  

 

Than say East Hick Kentucky???  We have a gawd given right ta shoot dem varmint terrurists... 

[Canuck Surfer]

3 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

"only 10% terrorists"

 

BTW this 80% / 10% debate is opinion based.

 

UNRWA had primary responsibility for food, medicine, but also education. The curriculum is suspect. I guess it is all relative? I am going to exaggerate in my next paragraph. Stir it up to make a point.

 

Imagine if native Canadians were brought up in a controlled school, not folklore or elders, that everything they ever had was stolen!  At 6 & 8 they had a right to take it back?  Were being taught violence, that they would go to heaven if they shot white people. The local political party, led by a teachers husband, sells guns, tobacco & booze smuggled in to raise funds for the cause. So at 14 a student smashed a white granny in the head with a rock, killed her by slashing her throat. Took her granddaughter, demanded your cousins be removed from jail for attacking police officers & the bub would be returned.  So the party gets together, hides the 14 year old in the forest. A group of 30 or 40, from a town of 300, armed party members block the police to come in the reserve looking for the hostage. Imagine?   

 

Would it not be true that those party members have a right to defend their reserve? Stop the police from looking for the baby.  Won't let anyone in until the cousins are released, and the bub would be handed back.

 

Back to the point; aren't more than 10% of the reserve radicalized?

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[StrayDog]

13 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

Mate, I love these things called facts.

 

I guess it gets down to whether you value the truth or not. 

 

 

 

10 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

I am not implying anything except for the fact that I value the truth.

 

So just to be clear,because I don't want to offend you (seriously), do you believe that a majority of people should pay the price for the actions of a few ?

 

We are not just labelling these people as criminals, being labelled a terrorist is a far more serious accusation.

 

Would you like this to happen to you if you were innocent ?

I certainly wouldn't. 

 

If you lost your job, and more importantly had your good name questioned how would you feel ?

 

This is exactly what that article I posted about empathy was about.

Putting yourself in other people's shoes.

The two bolded statements come across as arrogant and patronizing. You might not want to offend, but your phrasing frequently comes across as offensive.

As for whether or not I believe an entire group of people should pay the price for a few, no I don't believe that; but I understand the need to do so in order to create safety. It's why everyone's luggage gets checked at the airport, not just a select few - it's because anyone could be a potential terrorist.

Would you put yourself (or your family) in a place where 10% of the people could be a terrorist? Or would you keep away? You would be labeling everyone in the crowd a potential terrorist by not going, even if they were all innocent.

There is empathy, but there is also reality, and reality sucks.

[Optimist Prime]

13 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

Mate, I love these things called facts.

 

There is a massive difference between 10 percent and 80 percent especially when you are talking about 12,000 people.

 

That's a difference of 7000 people.

 

I guess it gets down to whether you value the truth or not. 

 

Would you like to be called a Terrorist if you weren't one ?

Especially if it involved losing your job ?

 

And this is not the only incident of misinformation that has been put out there by Israel.

 

Don't get me wrong, Hamas does the same thing.

 

 

Here is some of the Bullshit Hamas has propagated.

 

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-gaza-misinformation-fact-check-e58f9ab8696309305c3ea2bfb269258e

 

 

I think it was @Gurn that first used this adage, in this thread 

 

" In war, truth is the first casualty "

Ahh, so you are talking about 10% of 12000 people, and I was referring to between 30 and 80% of 5000 people. 
in your math: you refer to 1200 folks.

in my math: i refer to between 1500 and 4000.

My source is pouring over dozens of UN documents and reading transcripts of former UNRWA personnel giving testimony. I suspect your source is the internet/media. 

Either way, now I have a better understanding of what you were saying relative to what I was saying: at my low end we are only 300 Jihadi's apart in our estimations. While my high end is more than double yours. 

We are talking about estimates, not lists of individuals on a recruitment document, so I think its a moot point to quibble over. Neither of us is right, we both did research and have estimates. I trust mine. 

[Optimist Prime]

From memory, UNRWA employs roughly 12,000 people and services displaced people in Lebanon, the West Bank, Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Gaza. 

Those employed in Gaza number roughly 5000. Of those 5000 between 30% and 80% are estimated to be Hamas members, by experts, using real data and evidence gathered by the UN, even before Oct 7th. I don't know and don't have time to look into how many are employed in Lebanon for instance and have some affiliation to Hezbollah there, but I am willing to bet there is a significant number, however I was talking about Gaza, where Hamas rule and attacked Israel on Oct 7th.

 

EDIT:

So, revisiting some numbers to check my memory: 30,000 is the global estimate of UNRWA employees with 12,000 total in Gaza, you are correct there, my notes on the 5000 are directly working in hospitals/healthcare. I like to be accurate and memory can play tricks. The 5000 employed via a Collective Bargaining Agreement between UNRWA and hospital staff, that 'union' contract was 'won' or taken by Hamas. I am speaking to those 5000. 

It irks me that my memory was off on the specifics but it also irks me that you think 10% is much more acceptable than between 30% and 80%. Both are completely unacceptable. UNRWA has been funding Hamas for a very long time. When there was international pressure on UNRWA a decade ago due to Hamas infiltration the official line from UNRWA leaders was "If you stop funding us in Gaza, ISIS will recruit 2 million Gazans the next day". The quiet part of that statement is clearly UNRWA preferred Hamas leading than ISIS leading. Both are terrorist organizations and neither should be propped up by UN money.

 

This kind of highlights why it is pointless to argue about the war in Gaza/Israel on a hockey forum, its too time consuming to be perfectly accurate, and most folks don't care what is accurate and what is not if it reinforces preexisting positions. Have a good one. This will teach me to try to be quick in a forum post. I retract my "upwards of 80%" rhetoric. Lets go with the also inaccurate "10% as was seen on 'the wall street journal'. That sounds much nicer. "New and improved UNRWA: Now Only Only 10% Terrorists". I regret the time wasted here. 

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Optimist Prime said:

From memory, UNRWA employs roughly 12,000 people and services displaced people in Lebanon, the West Bank, Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Gaza. 

Those employed in Gaza number roughly 5000. Of those 5000 between 30% and 80% are estimated to be Hamas members, by experts, using real data and evidence gathered by the UN, even before Oct 7th. I don't know and don't have time to look into how many are employed in Lebanon for instance and have some affiliation to Hezbollah there, but I am willing to bet there is a significant number, however I was talking about Gaza, where Hamas rule and attacked Israel on Oct 7th.

From your experience, is it a regular thing for these aid agencies to be infiltrated by terrorists? 

[Canuck Surfer]

Why is the US giving $14B to Israel in war aid? Would be better suited rebuilding Gaza.

 

Don't shoot the messenger; the answer is not amongst my wishes;

 

Parts of S Lebanon will also be secured after Gaza.

[Super19]

Vancouver showing up for Palestine:

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C3R9kj4upsY/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet

 

 

 

[Bob Long]

7 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Vancouver showing up for Palestine:

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C3R9kj4upsY/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet

 

 

 

 

Vancouver?

[Super19]

6 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Vancouver?

Yes both of those videos are from  Vancouver