Hamas attacking Israel

[Alflives]

1 hour ago, Bob Long said:

 

Bullshit. Sorry but that's what you just said.

If there are people who find what’s going on in Gaza terrible, then is there a way they can volunteer to go there and try and change things? Because really rather than complaining on a hockey chat site, if they truly believe in their cause, there might be a chance to actually help those they proclaim are being oppressed. 

[Gurn]

1 hour ago, RomanPer said:

 

And your point is?

sorry- had to go for dinner with the folks.

The point is it didn't take much looking to find exactly where you stand-  as a self admitted Zionist. 

[Ilunga]

On 2/14/2024 at 3:01 AM, Optimist Prime said:

From memory, UNRWA employs roughly 12,000 people and services displaced people in Lebanon, the West Bank, Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Gaza. 

Those employed in Gaza number roughly 5000. Of those 5000 between 30% and 80% are estimated to be Hamas members, by experts, using real data and evidence gathered by the UN, even before Oct 7th. I don't know and don't have time to look into how many are employed in Lebanon for instance and have some affiliation to Hezbollah there, but I am willing to bet there is a significant number, however I was talking about Gaza, where Hamas rule and attacked Israel on Oct 7th.

 

EDIT:

So, revisiting some numbers to check my memory: 30,000 is the global estimate of UNRWA employees with 12,000 total in Gaza, you are correct there, my notes on the 5000 are directly working in hospitals/healthcare. I like to be accurate and memory can play tricks. The 5000 employed via a Collective Bargaining Agreement between UNRWA and hospital staff, that 'union' contract was 'won' or taken by Hamas. I am speaking to those 5000. 

It irks me that my memory was off on the specifics but it also irks me that you think 10% is much more acceptable than between 30% and 80%. Both are completely unacceptable. UNRWA has been funding Hamas for a very long time. When there was international pressure on UNRWA a decade ago due to Hamas infiltration the official line from UNRWA leaders was "If you stop funding us in Gaza, ISIS will recruit 2 million Gazans the next day". The quiet part of that statement is clearly UNRWA preferred Hamas leading than ISIS leading. Both are terrorist organizations and neither should be propped up by UN money.

 

This kind of highlights why it is pointless to argue about the war in Gaza/Israel on a hockey forum, its too time consuming to be perfectly accurate, and most folks don't care what is accurate and what is not if it reinforces preexisting positions. Have a good one. This will teach me to try to be quick in a forum post. I retract my "upwards of 80%" rhetoric. Lets go with the also inaccurate "10% as was seen on 'the wall street journal'. That sounds much nicer. "New and improved UNRWA: Now Only Only 10% Terrorists". I regret the time wasted here. 

 

You know, you are right. 

What's the point. 

A few of us believe that Palestinians and Israelis have the right to a state of their own.

A lot of others don't apply the same rules to the Israelis that they do to the Palestinians.

 

Certain posters make it personal attacking others, mocking their desire to live in a free, peaceful and just world.

One of them has a habit of doing this regularly, slandering people, having to be warned by the mods to restrain himself.

Often treating others who don't agree with his position with contempt.

You made it personal with me, saying I had a " blind spot " because I thought I was a good person and all the land in Australia is stolen, and because I supposedly think I am a good person the rules I apply to others don't apply to me.

I provided evidence that the Australian people have acknowledged first nations ownership of Australia and in particular the land I live on. 

Also, how is what has happened here in Australia hundreds of years ago, relevant to what is happening in Israel, Gaza and the occupied territories now ? 

And as for me being a good person, that's for others to determine, not me.

 

 

My preexisting position is simple, treat others the way I wish to be treated myself.

It becomes even more important to do this when those around you don't behave this way. 

Both at an individual and societal level.

 

I am very concerned with accuracy and truth.

The information I post, many of it from Israeli sources I believe

to be accurate. I always try and find several sources that confirm each other. 

 

 

The bottom line IMO in regards to this particular phase of the conflict, is does one believe that killing thousands of women and children, destroying a large percentage of homes and infrastructure in Gaza, is an appropriate response to the events of October 7.

 

Not only do I believe that this response is disproportionate, I like many others who have followed this conflict for decades, believe that that it will only hurt both the Israeli and Palestinian people in the long run.  

 

Over the course of this thread I have posted articles and videos about Israelis and Palestinians working for a peaceful resolution to this conflict.

 

I know certain posters are being derogatory when they call me a pacifist, using words like utopian.

I wear these labels proudly.

[RomanPer]

2 hours ago, Gurn said:

sorry- had to go for dinner with the folks.

The point is it didn't take much looking to find exactly where you stand-  as a self admitted Zionist. 

 

Yes, and proud of it. Never hid it. Unlike some here might think, Zionist is not a swear word.

[Canuck Surfer]

4 hours ago, Super19 said:

I'd be very careful in these protests for the actual antisemites that sneak themselves in there, which would be few if at all present, certainly not prevalent. You really and truly need to understand that this whole movement not just in Toronto but around the world is not against Jews. 

 

Maybe its not too late to learn how to love? And forget how to hate...

[Canuck Surfer]

5 hours ago, Super19 said:

Well said... thanks.

 

Ps: Biden looks like death, guy is not in good shape

 

Biden did not look good, no. 

 

I am not sure Jordan, who gets led by a King, gets any amnesty. While I applaud calling for peace?  Its hollow if, also as stated, they will not take any hostages. Not part of any solution.  Further, they have killed as many, or more Palestinian activists as anyone over time. Its good for him, and his family (historically), to have autonomy to crack down on terrorists.  Just not when someone else does it.  

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Ilunga]

On 2/14/2024 at 2:48 AM, StrayDog said:

 

The two bolded statements come across as arrogant and patronizing. You might not want to offend, but your phrasing frequently comes across as offensive.

As for whether or not I believe an entire group of people should pay the price for a few, no I don't believe that; but I understand the need to do so in order to create safety. It's why everyone's luggage gets checked at the airport, not just a select few - it's because anyone could be a potential terrorist.

Would you put yourself (or your family) in a place where 10% of the people could be a terrorist? Or would you keep away? You would be labeling everyone in the crowd a potential terrorist by not going, even if they were all innocent.

There is empathy, but there is also reality, and reality sucks.

 

So I am not allowed to state that I love facts with out you or anyone else taking offence ? 

 

That I can't question whether people value the truth ?

 

Did I state that you don't like facts ?

Did I state that you don't value the truth ?

 

No I did not, please don't accuse me of doing something I did not do.

 

Try researching what the effects Asperger's syndrome has on some one. 

How they can get very focused on certain things, in this case factual information and truth.

Which has been a constant in my life.

 

As for the rest it's easy to say reality sucks when you're not a victim of the reality our discussion has been about.

 

[Canuck Surfer]

22 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

So I am not allowed to state that I love facts with out you or anyone else taking offence ?

 

Sometimes you we just have to be careful?

 

Anyone can state a fact, even something strongly backed by a factual basis. It may not be infinite.

 

Conflict has layers of truth.  Facts also do not resolve conflict; concessions do.   

 

For example; a fact you have mentioned numerous times, paraphrasing, that Israel stealing land is the root cause of the conflict.  Yet I would propose that even giving land back may not resolve current impasse's?  And both of us have agreed, at least in context, a two state solution may be ideal.  Regardless of our, mine anyway, opinion?  I do not believe a two state solution is all that close to reality.  It won't be till Israel, and Hamas*, start making concessions.

 

Back to opinions?

 

Mine remains such events as listed in belows video are closer to the source of conflict. This same problem of bloodlust, could be inferred in what Biden called Israel's 'over the top' response. 

 

    

[Canuck Surfer]

 

 

[Ilunga]

4 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Sometimes you we just have to be careful?

 

Anyone can state a fact, even something strongly backed by a factual basis. It may not be infinite.

 

Conflict has layers of truth.  Facts also do not resolve conflict; concessions do.   

 

For example; a fact you have mentioned numerous times, paraphrasing, that Israel stealing land is the root cause of the conflict.  Yet I would propose that even giving land back may not resolve current impasse's?  And both of us have agreed, at least in context, a two state solution may be ideal.  Regardless of our, mine anyway, opinion?  I do not believe a two state solution is all that close to reality.  It won't be till Israel, and Hamas*, start making concessions.

 

Back to opinions?

 

Mine remains such events as listed in belows video are closer to the source of conflict. This same problem of bloodlust, could be inferred in what Biden called Israel's 'over the top' response. 

 

    

 

I have stated that Isreal stealing land is one of the root causes

As I have also pointed out, the status of Jerusalem is another major cause of dispute. 

I have also stated, many times this is a circle of hatred that is trauma driven.

All of these reasons are major contributing factors to this never ending conflict.

 

Even the Irish, those contentious mfers have managed to get their shit together.

Sinn Feins Michelle O'NEILL was named First Minister of Northern Ireland, making history.

 

 

 

The truth is the truth, just as factual information is either factual or not.

 

As I have stated I do my best to research any topic I am interested in thoroughly.

As I have also stated, I am always prepared to take others input onboard, and if they provide me with information that is factual I am always willing to learn.

In the scheme of things the amount of knowledge any one of us will accumulate is a drop in the ocean in regards to the amount of information there is.

 

How did the storm affect you ?

 

We didn't have power for nearly 2 days and have only got the internet and my phone connection back up in the last few hours.

[Canuck Surfer]

 

This video above is graphic.  Below informative & questions why Womens rights groups are not getting behind these horrors?

 

 

This has been a massive concern in all conflicts.  Ukraine, Sudan, here Syria & Iraq.

 

 

This seems to be Israel's response? Or has been. It's not good either...

 

A man's son shot in an ambush.  Buried in a story about rocks being thrown.  But he died in his car, not far from where his grandfather was killed in violence.

 

 

This is 8 years old below, Marches in the Muslim quarter, guarded by the IDF.

 

 

Solutions IMO remain that it is Israel's responsibility to prosecute violence, take responsibility for the safety of West Bank residents.  Palestinians take responsibility for violence perpetrated by their people.  These both seem a long way off.  

 

Entitlement is an issue. Concessions, and I call for them starting from Israel, the 1st world country, and owning the resources to make a difference.

[Canuck Surfer]

Interesting views by soldiers rotated out of Gaza;

 

 

[Ilunga]

30 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Interesting views by soldiers rotated out of Gaza;

 

 

 

 

Isreali soldiers ?

 

There was no Israeli soldiers talking on that video.

There was just a person making  claims with no evidence to back them up.

 

He lost me when he started speaking about Palestinians and Isreals Arab neighbours, stating 

 

" there is going to have be an acceptance and acknowledgement of the fact that god designated this land, the land of Israel for the Jewish people  

If they can't believe that this is what the will of God is " 

 

Then he suggests that the above is part of the ultimate solution and path to peace.  

 

Here is the same dude talking about some Talmudic end of times shit 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[StrayDog]

7 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

So I am not allowed to state that I love facts with out you or anyone else taking offence ? 

 

That I can't question whether people value the truth ?

 

Did I state that you don't like facts ?

Did I state that you don't value the truth ?

 

No I did not, please don't accuse me of doing something I did not do.

 

Try researching what the effects Asperger's syndrome has on some one. 

How they can get very focused on certain things, in this case factual information and truth.

Which has been a constant in my life.

 

As for the rest it's easy to say reality sucks when you're not a victim of the reality our discussion has been about.

 

Please point out where I said you're not allowed to post anything. I stated that your posts come across as arrogant and patronizing, and you might want to think about how you phrase them if you don't want to be called offensive.

You should probably not question if people value the truth, since that comes back to being arrogant and patronizing (which is offensive)

The bolded statements I pointed out before both read as you saying I don't like facts and don't value truth. 

I'm good with researching Aspberger's, thanks. I have family who have been diagnosed and my wife has been working with autistic students for the last 20+ years. I know what it can do. However, that does not give you license to be an offensive poster. If you want to be less offensive (and I believe you do) you would do better without the phrasing you frequently use, including the "Try researching..." you used above. Your tone needs work. 

Since you ignored the rest of my post and just called out the reality sucks part, I'm not going to respond to you anymore since you clearly didn't like my answer and will only cherry-pick what you respond to. If you only want to talk about what you want to talk about, that not a discussion - that's a monolog.

[Bob Long]

12 hours ago, Alflives said:

If there are people who find what’s going on in Gaza terrible, then is there a way they can volunteer to go there and try and change things? Because really rather than complaining on a hockey chat site, if they truly believe in their cause, there might be a chance to actually help those they proclaim are being oppressed. 

 

I'm sure that there are positive ways to do that.

 

But if I went and tried to block some random mosque pretending to protest Gaza @Super19 would call me a bigot, and rightfully so.

 

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Super19]

A Zionist VPD Officer?
 

 

[Super19]

8 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

I'm sure that there are positive ways to do that.

 

But if I went and tried to block some random mosque pretending to protest Gaza @Super19 would call me a bigot, and rightfully so.

 

I'm not blocking any synagogues, and I'm not pretending to protest for humanity, using it as a guise to spread antisemitism. 

I don't know why you fail to understand that. 

[Bob Long]

2 minutes ago, Super19 said:

I'm not blocking any synagogues, and I'm not pretending to protest for humanity, using it as a guise to spread antisemitism. 

I don't know why you fail to understand that. 

 

It's not that I don't understand you, I just don't believe you.

[RomanPer]

25 minutes ago, Super19 said:

A Zionist VPD Officer?
 

 

 

So, what is exactly wrong with wearing a Star of David? Seeing how you are not antisemitic... You do realize that the Star of David is a sign of Jews, not explicitly Zionists  And judging by the officer's last name - he is Jewish.

Edited February 15 by RomanPer

[RomanPer]

29 minutes ago, Super19 said:

A Zionist VPD Officer?
 

 

 

While we are on the subject - do you have any issues with Police officers of Sikh religion wearing turban?

[Bob Long]

4 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

So, what is exactly wrong with wearing a Star of David? Seeing how you are not antisemitic... You do realize that the Star of David is a sign of Jews, not explicitly Zionists  And judging by the officer's last name - he is Jewish.

 

well, some rando on twitter is upset, so sorry Roman, you have to hide it I guess. Its like someone forgot we already had identity clothing and policing arguments already. 

 

[Super19]

5 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

So, what is exactly wrong with wearing a Star of David? Seeing how you are not antisemitic... You do realize that the Star of David is a sign of Jews, not explicitly Zionists  

Hence why I questioned if he is a Zionist. Nothing wrong with being Jewish, although having that patch on a VPD uniform may not be up to code.