Hamas attacking Israel

[RomanPer]

14 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Gaza is an 'open air prison'. Gaza is a "concentration camp". Former Israeli officials have said as much.

 

Would you be okay with Jews living in Gaza being treated the same way as the Palestinians are treated?

 

 

The way Palestinian Israelis living in Israel are treated? With full rights, representation in the parliament, ability to study, work, NOT TO BE KILLED? Absolutely.

[Super19]

5 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

A prison with beach front property.

Still a prison. But now the beach front properties are destroyed.

[Optimist Prime]

whose fault is that? lemme guess "not the freedom fighters"

[Bob Long]

5 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Still a prison.

 

No, it's not. You diminish it's reality with that spin.

[Ilunga]

This article written by Eyal Mayroz

Ex captain in the IDF, counter - terrorism.

 

Now he is a senior  lecturer at Sydney Uni in Peace and conflict studies, discipline sociology and criminology.

Background includes genocide studies and counter terrorism.

 

" The " day after " the war: Is peace possible when Isrealis and the rest of the world view the Gaza can conflict so differently "

 

https://www.abc.net.au/religion/eyal-mayroz-day-after-gaza-conflict-difficult-prospects-peace/103486236

 

 

Given the vast differences of trust and favour between Israelis and Palestinians, such concessions will be extremely difficult to achieve. Decades of mutual greivanves, tit for tat violence, daily rights violations of Palestinians and intergenerational trauma have eroded whatever good will may have existed once for the " other side ". And while learning about tragedies of others can support healing and reconciliation processes, turning victomhood into a competition has produced polarisation and distrust. " 

 

 

" The world has largely moved on from the 7 October attacks, with many people's memories obscured by the daily footage of the carnage in Gaza. More than 29,000 Palestinians have been killed so far. And many more are still under the rubble. However Israelis don't see on their screens what the rest of the world sees. Rather they continue to relive - through survivors stories and other testimonies - the horrors of 7 October. These kind of reports are rarely watched now by others. 

 

Gaza's destruction and the mass killings of civilians - many of them elderly, women and children - are reported by Israeli mainstream media very selectively, as " unfortunate " but inevitable collateral damage for which Hamas alone should be held accountable. While relentlessly thrashing Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu for their failures before, during and after 7 October, the Isreali media continue to shield the public from the images of unimaginable despair coming out of Gaza. "

 

" The widely reported displays of glee in the hours after the brutal massacres or kidnappings of over 1400 Israelis - including women, children and elderly people - stunned Israeli society. In their worst nightmares Israelis could not make sense of the support for the Hamas attack, or the widespread denial that attrocities had occurred at all. That it took nearly two months of UN officials and prominent women's rights organisations to acknowledge the systematic rape that took place during the attack dismayed and enraged the entire country. 

 

Nowhere was this shock felt more acutely was within Israel's small and now battered peace camp. Some victims of 7 October had been for years active members of the peace movement. After years of campaignimg ant occupation activists felt suddenly betrayed by many progressives in the west who seemed uncaring or oblivious to their pain. In the days following the attack, the pages of the left leaning Haaretz were filled with expression of this anger and raw emotion. 

 

 

 

By magnifying old festering feelings of isolation and victimisation within Jewish society, the callous or insensitive relations to the 7 October attack ended up inflicting damage on the Palestinian cause as well. As emotions in Israel continue to run high, more and more people have been adopting the view that if the world hates us so much - evoking the days of the holocaust - we will have to forever live by the sword. 

 

Inadvertently fanning the victimisation narrative, the global outrage of Gaza has Hardened Israels defiance as well. Why, many of them are asking didn't the same rage manifest itself over the bloody conflicts in Sudan, Yemen, Ethiopia or Myanmar ? Why is Israel being singled out ? 

 

These feelings - and the delusional thinking that Hamas could be destroyed and all hostages freed by force - have overwhelmed all other considerations for the Israelis. For years public opinion in opinion in Israel had significant influence over government policies on the occupied territories. The shock of 7 October may have magnified the importance of these opinions by many people's long held positions on the Palestinian " problem". This has been more likely the case on the political left and in the centre, where many people have lost a sense of security and hope. 

 

The arguably more logical lesson of the attack - that peace and security for Israel are inextricably linked to the self determination of the Palestinian people - has failed to gain many new adherents, at least for now. As a result the death toll I'm Gaza has so far had little impact on the Isreali Jewish public. The only thing animating some calls for a ceasefire deal now is the ongoing risk to the hostages and the sense of national responsibility for their fate. 

 

For much of the world the never ending violations of the Palestinians' rights by Jewish settlers, the Isreali state and Israeli security forces have legitmised the struggle for a free Palestine many times over. This accumulation of past wrongs - together with the brutality of Israels military operation - have succeeded in placing the Palestinian agenda at the forefront of global attention and keeping it there for months.

 

However anger at injustices should not lead to support - or even acquiescence - for the killing of civilians by either side. No amount of violence will bring a resolution to this highly asymmetric conflict. Isreal has for decades tried to impose its own solutions on the Palestinians through force and failed. Why would the same means work now in the other direction.

 

The path to a Palestinian state must provide, among other things, a sense of security for the Isrealis. Not because this objective is more important than others, but because without it, there will be no end to the horrors of occupation.

 

In the days and months to come, international leaders have two major tasks to achieve. In addition to bringing an end to the bloodshed in Gaza - to which the United states holds the key - they must strive to earn trust on both sides of the fence. Both Palestinians and Israelis should be able to have confidence in the process and the will of the mediators to keep their concerns and interests at heart in the difficult negotiations over inevitably painful and risky solutions. 

 

Since the events of 7 October have set the prospects for grass roots peace building back years, solutions imposed from the top down will be necessary to chart a feasible path forward. 

 

Hate comes easily in the face of injustices as does empathy for the suffering of one's own side. It's much harder to empathize with the misfortune of others who may, or may not, have brought their misery upon themselves. Selective denunciation of attrocities based on ones support or rejection of a cause - any cause - is not only morally flawed but counter productive as well. Resistance to any of all attrocities should be proactive, decisive and resolute. 

 

Those who have been severely aggreived may struggle to apply the same yardstick to others, but the rest of us could and should. We can do better. "

 

 

An Israeli voice who has experience in counter terrorism, conflict resolution amongst other things.

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

21 hours ago, Super19 said:

 

I mean the Zionism in action right now has amounted to over 30k KILLED - 70% women and children.

 

Are you Palestinian?

 

Honest question.  350,000 Syrian civilians were killed ten years ago in the civil war in Aleppo alone. Including about 30,000 Palestinians. Why were they not important? 

 

Where were you then?  

 

At that time it wasn't even their own leadership inviting the slaughter. 

 

Zionism in action is your opinion.  Admittedly others? Not mine. Hamas could hand back hostages and disappear in tunnels to Egypt. The attack would stop. 

 

How come the Palestinian men are not in front of the women & children? Why is it so disproportionate? Have they found better places, like Lebanon? To turn tricks...  

 

Take hostages? 

[Canuck Surfer]

22 hours ago, Super19 said:

It's also leading to an offensive from Yemen and Hezbollah which seems to be escalating.

 

Lets switch gears realities?

 

1.5 million Christians in Iraq have been decimated in to a population of 150,000 in the last 30 years. 89% More than 1/2 by Saddam Hussein before George Bush attacked.  Unfortunately he was after oil, not stopping Genocide.  The balance in the aftermath primarily by Islamic extremists like ISIS. Who scrambled to be the leading party. Get rid of all opposition, minorities. As well as tens of thousands of Yazidi's, Kurds and other minorities. Many gassed. 

 

600,000 Christians have died or left Syria in the last ten years. 75 % of their population in the last ten years. Many at the hands of Hezbollah & Hamas. Who both supplied active mercenaries; profit in arms sales & human trafficking. Again tens of thousands of Kurds.  Several thousand Yazidi, rounded up, their hands tied behind their back, dumped in to a pit? And shot or buried alive!  

 

Back to Iraqi fundamentalists, closely linked to Hamas, 50% of Christians killed in Kuwait. The rest thrown out of Kuwait after the Saudi's & George Bush senior came to Kuwait's ''aid.''  Ruling Islamic fundamentalists wanting to distance themselves. Someone to blame.  Kuwait has less than 5% of the Christians from just 40 years.

 

There are 30,000 Christians dead in Yemen since the Arab Spring. Only a small fraction of the total dead. Again a virtual 95% displacement of Jews & Christians.  Similar minorities from Africa, other parts of the Middle East wiped out.  

 

Gaza's population has quadrupled in that time frame. Who is kidding who as to where Genocide is taking place?

 

More than 85% of Jews and Christians have (no choice) left left. Arabic populations in Israel have also quadrupled. Almost no one is welcome except compliant supporters of Hamas in Gaza?  

 

My observation, pre-war, was that Israel was indifferent to Palestinians in, for example, the West Bank.  Turned a blind eye when Jewish Settlers marauded, or stole land? Indifferent because each seems to have had a friend mutilated in a suicide bombing or a near miss with a missile attack from Gaza.  After they voluntarily withdrew.  I admit the problem of Israel's treatment is much worse than I understood. 

 

My conclusion is that Islamic militants are behind the actual Genocide going on. 

 

 

[Ilunga]

2 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Lets switch gears realities?

 

1.5 million Christians in Iraq have been decimated in to a population of 150,000 in the last 30 years. 89% More than 1/2 by Saddam Hussein before George Bush attacked.  Unfortunately he was after oil, not stopping Genocide.  The balance in the aftermath primarily by Islamic extremists like ISIS. Who scrambled to be the leading party. Get rid of all opposition, minorities. As well as tens of thousands of Yazidi's, Kurds and other minorities. Many gassed. 

 

600,000 Christians have died or left Syria in the last ten years. 75 % of their population in the last ten years. Many at the hands of Hezbollah & Hamas. Who both supplied active mercenaries; profit in arms sales & human trafficking. Again tens of thousands of Kurds.  Several thousand Yazidi, rounded up, their hands tied behind their back, dumped in to a pit? And shot or buried alive!  

 

Back to Iraqi fundamentalists, closely linked to Hamas, 50% of Christians killed in Kuwait. The rest thrown out of Kuwait after the Saudi's & George Bush senior came to Kuwait's ''aid.''  Ruling Islamic fundamentalists wanting to distance themselves. Someone to blame.  Kuwait has less than 5% of the Christians from just 40 years.

 

There are 30,000 Christians dead in Yemen since the Arab Spring. Only a small fraction of the total dead. Again a virtual 95% displacement of Jews & Christians.  Similar minorities from Africa, other parts of the Middle East wiped out.  

 

Gaza's population has quadrupled in that time frame. Who is kidding who as to where Genocide is taking place?

 

More than 85% of Jews and Christians have (no choice) left left. Arabic populations in Israel have also quadrupled. Almost no one is welcome except compliant supporters of Hamas in Gaza?  

 

My observation, pre-war, was that Israel was indifferent to Palestinians in, for example, the West Bank.  Turned a blind eye when Jewish Settlers marauded, or stole land? Indifferent because each seems to have had a friend mutilated in a suicide bombing or a near miss with a missile attack from Gaza.  After they voluntarily withdrew.  I admit the problem of Israel's treatment is much worse than I understood. 

 

My conclusion is that Islamic militants are behind the actual Genocide going on. 

 

 

 

Whoa,

" each seems to have a friend mutilated in a suicide bombing or near miss with a missile attack from Gaza " ?

 

Don't you remember the figures I have posted twice already. 

 

 

https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/

 

Again this is only from 2008 - 2020 the closest I could find that matches Hamas' rule. 

 

So bottom line 

5,600 Palestinian died 

115,000 injured 

While during the same period

250 Israelis died  

5,600 injured.

 

Thats a shitload more Palestinians  who will have a friend that is fucked up or dead up during that time. 

 

As for the rest of your post, the last couple of paragraphs at the end of my last post covers it all 

 

" Selective denunciation of attrocities based on ones support or rejection of a cause, any cause, is not only morally flawed, but counter productive as well. Resistance to any and all attrocities should be proactive, decisive and resolute. 

 

" Those who have been severely aggreived may struggle to apply the same yardstick to others. But the rest of us could and should. We can do better. "

 

 

[Taxi]

17 hours ago, Super19 said:

Gaza is an 'open air prison'. Gaza is a "concentration camp". Former Israeli officials have said as much.

 

Would you be okay with Jews living in Gaza being treated the same way as the Palestinians are treated?

 

 

The blockade on Gaza occurred after Hamas took over. October 7 revealed why it was necessary to blockade Gaza in the first place. October 7 only occurred after Israel started giving out 40k work permits/day to allow Palestinians into Israel. Hamas operatives used that opportunity to gather information about Israel and where to strike civilians. 

 

If the Palestinians had chosen someone other than Hamas, they would not have been treated that way. Even then, Gaza was also blockaded by Egypt. Israel had zero control over the southern border.

[Taxi]

6 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

Whoa,

" each seems to have a friend mutilated in a suicide bombing or near miss with a missile attack from Gaza " ?

 

Don't you remember the figures I have posted twice already. 

 

 

https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/

 

Again this is only from 2008 - 2020 the closest I could find that matches Hamas' rule. 

 

So bottom line 

5,600 Palestinian died 

115,000 injured 

While during the same period

250 Israelis died  

5,600 injured.

 

Thats a shitload more Palestinians  who will have a friend that is fucked up or dead up during that time. 

 

As for the rest of your post, the last couple of paragraphs at the end of my last post covers it all 

 

" Selective denunciation of attrocities based on ones support or rejection of a cause, any cause, is not only morally flawed, but counter productive as well. Resistance to any and all attrocities should be proactive, decisive and resolute. 

 

" Those who have been severely aggreived may struggle to apply the same yardstick to others. But the rest of us could and should. We can do better. "

 

 

 

 

Israel has no obligation to match death for death with a homicidal death cult that believes in raping women and parading their mutilated bodies through the street.

[Bob Long]

6 minutes ago, Taxi said:

If the Palestinians had chosen someone other than Hamas, they would not have been treated that way. Even then, Gaza was also blockaded by Egypt. Israel had zero control over the southern border.

 

 

you're supposed to ignore Egypt. 

[Taxi]

4 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

 

you're supposed to ignore Egypt. 

 

Supposed to also ignore that Gaza is/was controlled by a death cult that openly stated that any agreements with Israel were void and their goal was to invade and destroy Israel. There's a very good reason Egypt also imposed a blockade, as Hamas is extremely dangerous. 

[Bob Long]

Just now, Taxi said:

 

Supposed to also ignore that Gaza is/was controlled by a death cult that openly stated that any agreements with Israel were void and their goal was to invade and destroy Israel. There's a very good reason Egypt also imposed a blockade, as Hamas is extremely dangerous. 

 

open air prison. Stop talking. 

[Optimist Prime]

The difference between the West Bank and Gaza are incredible. Mostly the folks in the West Bank are capable of working together for peace. I have seen it with my own two eyes and as others have pointed out, there is even a specific settlement in the west bank where Israeli Jews and Palestinian Muslims live side by each in harmony. 

 

Gaza was and is a continual threat to the lives of even peace loving hippies in Israel, as evidenced by the attack that started this war.  The Open Air Prison bs is 100% Hamas propaganda. "Why aren't those people we attacked, murdered and raped on Oct 7th giving us food water and medicine?" gee...i wonder. 

[Ilunga]

3 hours ago, Taxi said:

 

Israel has no obligation to match death for death with a homicidal death cult that believes in raping women and parading their mutilated bodies through the street.

 

Who said they had to ?

 

I pointed out that there was 115,000 more Palestinians either killed or injured in that timespan, years before the October 7 attack.

 

 

You called me biased.

I have condemned the 7 October attack.

I have condemned Hamas and stated they should be removed.

I condemn the Palestinians who killed or injured over 5,800 Isreali in the timespan that article I referred to.

 

You are selective in your condemnation of attrocities committed in this conflict. 

 

As Eyal Mayroz stated, this is a morally flawed position to take.

 

Do you think you are better informed about the situation in regards to this conflict  than Eyal ?

An Israeli who worked as a counter terrorism intelligence officer in the IDF. 

 

What is your experience in regards to this conflict ?

 

Do you think you have better insights than he does into how to resolve this conflict ?

He is a senior lecturer in peace and conflict studies. 

 

What is your profession ?

 

You haven't even got the moral courage to admit you were wrong when you called me a liar.

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, Optimist Prime said:

The difference between the West Bank and Gaza are incredible. Mostly the folks in the West Bank are capable of working together for peace. I have seen it with my own two eyes and as others have pointed out, there is even a specific settlement in the west bank where Israeli Jews and Palestinian Muslims live side by each in harmony. 

 

Gaza was and is a continual threat to the lives of even peace loving hippies in Israel, as evidenced by the attack that started this war.  The Open Air Prison bs is 100% Hamas propaganda. "Why aren't those people we attacked, murdered and raped on Oct 7th giving us food water and medicine?" gee...i wonder. 

 

That isn't what I witnessed on the news the other night.

 

I witnessed armed Isreali settlers threaten a Palestinian and an Australian film crew when they visited a Palestinian villages olive groves. 

 

And not according to this article.

 

https://www.npr.org/2024/02/19/1231129046/israeli-settlers-palestinians-violence-hebron-west-bank

 

And this isn't what the leaders of our respective governments state.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/dec/13/albanese-calls-for-gaza-ceasefire-in-joint-statement-with-nz-and-canada-pms

 

They aren't selective in their condemnation of injustice. 

 

" We condemn rising ant semitism, Islamophobia, and anti Arab sentiment in our countries and around the world and remain firmly committed to combatting prejudice, hatred and violent extremism, the three Prime Ministers said. "

 

 

Why do you mock the fact that millions are on the edge of starving ? 

 

 

 

 

 

[Taxi]

50 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Who said they had to ?

 

I pointed out that there was 115,000 more Palestinians either killed or injured in that timespan, years before the October 7 attack.

 

 

You called me biased.

I have condemned the 7 October attack.

I have condemned Hamas and stated they should be removed.

I condemn the Palestinians who killed or injured over 5,800 Isreali in the timespan that article I referred to.

 

You are selective in your condemnation of attrocities committed in this conflict. 

 

As Eyal Mayroz stated, this is a morally flawed position to take.

 

Do you think you are better informed about the situation in regards to this conflict  than Eyal ?

An Israeli who worked as a counter terrorism intelligence officer in the IDF. 

 

What is your experience in regards to this conflict ?

 

Do you think you have better insights than he does into how to resolve this conflict ?

He is a senior lecturer in peace and conflict studies. 

 

What is your profession ?

 

You haven't even got the moral courage to admit you were wrong when you called me a liar.

 

Israel killing civilians, who Hamas is hiding behind, is not the same as Hamas purposely killing, raping, and mutilating the corpses of civilians. My point is that comparing the number of casualties, without looking at the context of how they came to be, isn't a fair comparison to make. 

[Canuck Surfer]

10 hours ago, Ilunga said:

Thats a shitload more Palestinians  who will have a friend that is fucked up or dead up during that time. 

 

As for the rest of your post, the last couple of paragraphs at the end of my last post covers it all 

 

" Selective denunciation of attrocities based on ones support or rejection of a cause, any cause, is not only morally flawed, but counter productive as well. Resistance to any and all attrocities should be proactive, decisive and resolute. 

 

The number dead of course has a massive factor of Israeli brutality.  I have long argued rubber bullets, not real ones dealing with teenagers protesting by throwing rocks and rampaging.  I have long argued against settlement violence, rampages of extremists on the Israeli side, settlements themselves. That Israel has to police this. Not hide it... That said?

 

* It also has a distinct correlation to attacking an inherently vastly better equipped and stronger enemy.

* It has a direct correlation to the activity of those Palestinian kids, brought up in a brainwashed & programmed to violence society.

* Every Israeli home remotely near a border has a bomb shelter and safe room. Why is that?  

 

So!  Does that mean those who have born violence at the hands Palestinians are not victims?

 

Yet, my key point was, you choose to neglect that as many Palestinians die in Islamic violence as do against Israeli. In reality more, not just because many of their youth become militant soldiers in other wars. Palestinians became unwelcome, were expelled and killed in Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Iraq & Yemen specifically because of the # of mercenary and in fact territorial activities of Palestinians amongst. Also simply because they are minorities which is not exclusive to them! And yes stateless. Why ignore that Christian and Jewish displacement, violence and death in places like Yemen, Iraq, Morocco, Tunisia, Iran exceeds that at the hands of Israel by a factor of almost TEN times? That other minorities like Assyrian, Kurd, Yazidi also experience extensive death and ethnic cleansing in the territories directly surrounding Israel. Also by a factor significantly greater than greater those born by Palestinians.  The reason is the proliferation of nationalist Islamic, massively corrupt, usually autocratic states.

 

Usually that isolate & arm themselves to conquer other races. Jews inclusive but not exclusively.

 

Death in Aleppo & Mosul staggers the figures in Gaza. Yemen?  SUDAN. Staggers, while all death is tragic. Yet Hamas has a charter that itself is not satisfied with the elimination of Jews. Think about that!

 

In the Middle East millions have died in Jihadist wars. Tens of millions including the Caucasus, the Stans, Africa if or if not you include starvation in displacement. That so many are stateless a reflection that minorities are abused in virtually all Jihadist societies. That Palestinians are part of this exact problem is largely their choosing, their activities, their programming as brought up. I readily admit the indifference of many Israelis takes advantage of this. Yet Israel, IMO, is not that key problem.    

 

It's not me cherry picking sir!   

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, Taxi said:

 

Israel killing civilians, who Hamas is hiding behind, is not the same as Hamas purposely killing, raping, and mutilating the corpses of civilians. My point is that comparing the number of casualties, without looking at the context of how they came to be, isn't a fair comparison to make. 

 

I didn't know that you can call any civilians deaths fair.

 

And again those figures are from 2008 - 2020.

Nothing to do with this current phase of this never ending conflict.

 

You sound exactly how Eyal Mayroz described the Israeli media.

Continually stating the same narrative over and over again, while at the same time dehumanising Palestinians who had nothing to do with the October 7 attack, or any attacks on Isrealis at all.

 

There's that selective denunciation he was talking about.

As he stated, this is not only morally flawed, it is counter productive in regards to finding a peaceful solution to this conflict.

 

This is why injustice continues to flourish in this world, people like you find ways to justify it. 

 

[Optimist Prime]

2 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

That isn't what I witnessed on the news the other night.

I witnessed armed Isreali settlers threaten a Palestinian and an Australian film crew when they visited a Palestinian villages olive groves. 

Yeah I read what you said about that, and my first question in my head, as a critical thinker, was "well now why did that Palestinian Mayor know to take that film crew to the exact spot to get the reaction that he so desperately hoped they would catch on film?". 

Clearly we are not being shown the whole story. Perhaps the day before some of the good mayors citizens were in that exact spot throwing molotov cocktails at 'settlers', or some other equally jarring situation which the man with a story to tell was all too aware of, and therefore knew exactly the location that would elicit the response the cameras captured from the IDF/Israeli's? Perhaps, and I am just spitballing: perhaps it was some Kibutz' grove of olives and historically the palestinians are up to no good there as part of their 'resistance'...which again would elicit the response it did from the authorities...I don't know, I am just trying to think of why the Mayor knew to go there to get what he needed to get caught on film. Shrug. 

 

I mean it isn't a story worth showing on TV if some jewish people came by with flowers and handed one to the mayor, is it?

 

He wouldn't have taken the film crew to a 'non story' location. Therefore he knew what reaction would happen and was hoping to make it look as bad as possible for the Israeli's involved, clearly or they would have picked a different locale. 

[Canuck Surfer]

11 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

Yeah I read what you said about that, and my first question in my head, as a critical thinker, was "well now why did that Palestinian Mayor know to take that film crew to the exact spot to get the reaction that he so desperately hoped they would catch on film?". 

Clearly we are not being shown the whole story. Perhaps the day before some of the good mayors citizens were in that exact spot throwing molotov cocktails at 'settlers', or some other equally jarring situation which the man with a story to tell was all too aware of, and therefore knew exactly the location that would elicit the response the cameras captured from the IDF/Israeli's? Perhaps, and I am just spitballing: perhaps it was some Kibutz' grove of olives and historically the palestinians are up to no good there as part of their 'resistance'...which again would elicit the response it did from the authorities...I don't know, I am just trying to think of why the Mayor knew to go there to get what he needed to get caught on film. Shrug. 

 

It is what it is.  

 

There are Israeli Settlers who have farms. I have no idea the true landowners?  Caught, machine guns, weapons and bats at hand on quad bikes, buzzing Palestinian herders tending their flocks on hillsides beside the farm. People die, get beaten. Sometimes monitored by the IDF. Perhaps, as you suggest, because there is sinister activities both ways. There are Palestinian farmers. Who have safe houses & storage that harbour passing Hamas, more commonly Hezbollah members, their weapons in bunkers under their buildings. They become a source of hiding, bases for Palestinians that also attack Israeli farmers, plus purges in to Israeli territory. The number of missiles launched from the West Bank is significant. Settlement violence has been caught on camera, tracked & traced thousands, if not tens of thousands of times.   

 

It's not worth suggesting it does not exist?

 

The solutions will start when, it does not matter which first?  Palestinians begin policing & condemning violence against Israelis by their own. Israelis policing and condemning violence against Palestinians.  When justice takes precedence over revenge or blame.

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

The number dead of course has a massive factor of Israeli brutality.  I have long argued rubber bullets, not real ones dealing with teenagers protesting by throwing rocks and rampaging.  I have long argued against settlement violence, rampages of extremists on the Israeli side, settlements themselves. That Israel has to police this. Not hide it... That said?

 

* It also has a distinct correlation to attacking an inherently vastly better equipped and stronger enemy.

* It has a direct correlation to the activity of those Palestinian kids, brought up in a brainwashed & programmed to violence society.

* Every Israeli home remotely near a border has a bomb shelter and safe room. Why is that?  

 

So!  Does that mean those who have born violence at the hands Palestinians are not victims?

 

Yet, my key point was, you choose to neglect that as many Palestinians die in Islamic violence as do against Israeli. In reality more, not just because many of their youth become militant soldiers in other wars. Palestinians became unwelcome, were expelled and killed in Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Iraq & Yemen specifically because of the # of mercenary and in fact territorial activities of Palestinians amongst. Also simply because they are minorities which is not exclusive to them! And yes stateless. Why ignore that Christian and Jewish displacement, violence and death in places like Yemen, Iraq, Morocco, Tunisia, Iran exceeds that at the hands of Israel by a factor of almost TEN times? That other minorities like Assyrian, Kurd, Yazidi also experience extensive death and ethnic cleansing in the territories directly surrounding Israel. Also by a factor significantly greater than greater those born by Palestinians.  The reason is the proliferation of nationalist Islamic, massively corrupt, usually autocratic states.

 

Usually that isolate & arm themselves to conquer other races. Jews inclusive but not exclusively.

 

Death in Aleppo & Mosul staggers the figures in Gaza. Yemen?  SUDAN. Staggers, while all death is tragic. Yet Hamas has a charter that itself is not satisfied with the elimination of Jews. Think about that!

 

In the Middle East millions have died in Jihadist wars. Tens of millions including the Caucasus, the Stans, Africa if or if not you include starvation in displacement. That so many are stateless a reflection that minorities are abused in virtually all Jihadist societies. That Palestinians are part of this exact problem is largely their choosing, their activities, their programming as brought up. I readily admit the indifference of many Israelis takes advantage of this. Yet Israel, IMO, is not that key problem.    

 

It's not me cherry picking sir!   

 

Can you imagine what would happen here in Australia or Canada if police fired at, and/or killed teenagers throwing stones ?

There would be a massive public outcry. 

 

You state, and correctly so that there are many more Israeli victims than those figures attest to.

Well the same applies to the Palestinians.

Who are victims of assualt, having their homes taken away from them.

It is obvious to anyone who has followed this conflict that one side pays a far greater human " price " than the other. 

 

 I , as many others continually state, if the Palestinians were allowed a state of their own maybe this violence will come to an end.

This is a solution the world wants both sides to try.

What has been tried so far hasn't worked.

 

I have neglected nothing in regards to any attrocities you have brought up.

I addressed this, using Eyal Mayroz's  statement 

 

" Selective denunciation of attrocities based on ones support or rejection of a cause, any cause, is not only morally flawed but counter productive as well.

RESISTANCE TO ANY AND ALL ATTROCITIES SHOULD BE PROACTIVE, DECISIVE AND RESOLUTE " 

 

And in regards to that statement, my peaceful, non violent views are well known, and mocked on this forum.

 

And talking about Jihadist wars, whose actions totally destabilized the middle east and created the condition for the birth of ISIS ?

The US by illegally invading Iraq.

 

If the Palestinians have the west bank, Gaza and east Jerusalem, that is roughly a quarter of what was once called Palestine.

Do you believe that they can form a viable state with any amount of territory/ land that is less than this ? 

 

 

Meanwhile over 2.2 million people in Gaza are facing high levels of acute food insecurity or worse, with one in four households facing catastrophic conditions.

 

Imagine if the roles were reversed ?

[Canuck Surfer]

1 minute ago, Ilunga said:

 

Can you imagine what would happen here in Australia or Canada if police fired at, and/or killed teenagers throwing stones ?

 

Just a mention that I brought this up.  I also brought the same up the days after Oct 7. Its not new for me to document such items. There are absolutely Israeli crimes.

 

But if rocks don't justify any more than rubber bullets?  Land theft does not justify mass rape, execution, in some cases burning citizens alive and hostage taking on the other side of the country. Each are crimes of their own to investigated, prosecuted. Blame is not a justification for more crimes by either side! 

[Optimist Prime]

2 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

There are absolutely Israeli crimes.

Agreed, never denied it. I was just talking about that dude with the press cameras who took them to a spot he knew would get that response from Israeli's.  It is a back and forth that pre dates my existence, I know i won't solve it in a chat forum.

[Canuck Surfer]

20 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

And talking about Jihadist wars, whose actions totally destabilized the middle east and created the condition for the birth of ISIS ?

The US by illegally invading Iraq.

 

Jihadist wars in Iraq predated the US invading.  Iraq was fully engaged in de-populating or expelling non Sunni Muslim entities. 

 

Saddam Hussein may not have had weapons of mass destruction. But he was a prick! As was Asaad, Mubarak, Ali Abdullah Saleh, Sadat, Sinwar, Qaddafi, Arafat. There was plenty of meddling going on! Backing what might be the winning militant group for a share in spoils by Western countries? There would have been plenty of Jihadist / Islamic militants & wars irrespective of Israel or the US, the Soviet Union or Russia for that matter either.

 

 

Edited February 22 by Canuck Surfer
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