Canuck Surfer Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 Ali Abdullah Saleh once described ruling a Muslim country as “dancing over the heads of snakes.” 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 27 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said: Yeah I read what you said about that, and my first question in my head, as a critical thinker, was "well now why did that Palestinian Mayor know to take that film crew to the exact spot to get the reaction that he so desperately hoped they would catch on film?". Clearly we are not being shown the whole story. Perhaps the day before some of the good mayors citizens were in that exact spot throwing molotov cocktails at 'settlers', or some other equally jarring situation which the man with a story to tell was all too aware of, and therefore knew exactly the location that would elicit the response the cameras captured from the IDF/Israeli's? Perhaps, and I am just spitballing: perhaps it was some Kibutz' grove of olives and historically the palestinians are up to no good there as part of their 'resistance'...which again would elicit the response it did from the authorities...I don't know, I am just trying to think of why the Mayor knew to go there to get what he needed to get caught on film. Shrug. I mean it isn't a story worth showing on TV if some jewish people came by with flowers and handed one to the mayor, is it? He wouldn't have taken the film crew to a 'non story' location. Therefore he knew what reaction would happen and was hoping to make it look as bad as possible for the Israeli's involved, clearly or they would have picked a different locale. Seriously ? The reporter asked to be shown around the village. The groves were part of the village that the Mayor took the reporter to. He showed him around other parts of the village, the reporter visited a couple of families in their homes. This was a ten odd minute story on a world news report, on our 24 hour news station. And now you are making up scenarios ? I am quite sure the ABC would love to film and show to the world Isreali settlers giving Palestinian people flowers. That's not only extremely newsworthy, it's also something " our ABC " loves to do. Promote good/happy stories. So what you are stating, but in a backhanded way, is what the Isreali security forces stated when they rolled up, in the words of the reporter they were advised to leave. Also after that report, the team visited the Israeli settlement that was right next to the Palestinian village. He tried to talk to people but no one wanted to talk to him. Again, Israeli security forces rolled up and " advised " them to leave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 17 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said: Just a mention that I brought this up. I also brought the same up the days after Oct 7. Its not new for me to document such items. There are absolutely Israeli crimes. But if rocks don't justify any more than rubber bullets? Land theft does not justify mass rape, execution, in some cases burning citizens alive and hostage taking on the other side of the country. Each are crimes of their own to investigated, prosecuted. Blame is not a justification for more crimes by either side! I have continually stated that violence is never justified. That both sides committing violence, contribute to this conflict. Rock throwing, land theft, none of this is justification for the horrific crimes both sides have committed. This cycle of trauma driven violence has to be broken somehow. We need new ideas, something I have stated many times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 1 hour ago, Optimist Prime said: Agreed, never denied it. I was just talking about that dude with the press cameras who took them to a spot he knew would get that response from Israeli's. It is a back and forth that pre dates my existence, I know i won't solve it in a chat forum. That " dude " is the mayor of his village. Those groves are a part of his village. What valid reason do armed settlers have to rock up and threaten not just the mayor of the town, also an Australian film crew ? You keep on saying that this " problem '' can't be solved on a chat forum, yet you still contribute to the discussion we are all having. This is a discussion about an event that many people in our world society have strong views about. Many of us want Isrealis and Palestinians to live together in peace and harmony. Many of us are horrified by the events of October 7, and the events since. And events that predate this current phase of this ongoing conflict. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 (edited) 3 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said: Jihadist wars in Iraq predated the US invading. Iraq was fully engaged in de-populating or expelling non Sunni Muslim entities. Saddam Hussein may not have had weapons of mass destruction. But he was a prick! As was Asaad, Mubarak, Ali Abdullah Saleh, Sadat, Sinwar, Qaddafi, Arafat. There was plenty of meddling going on! Backing what might be the winning militant group for a share in spoils by Western countries? There would have been plenty of Jihadist / Islamic militants & wars irrespective of Israel or the US, the Soviet Union or Russia for that matter either. There was one main reason the US invaded Iraq. Oil. Cheney had been on Bush's back about finishing the job his " daddy " started ten years ago. https://www.cnn.com/2013/03/19/opinion/iraq-war-oil-juhasz/index.html " Oil was not the only goal of the Iraq war but it was the central one, as top military and political figures have attested to in the years following the invasion " Cheney was dividing up Iraq's oil deposits before the war. https://www.metrowestdailynews.com/story/news/2008/07/03/editorial-dividing-up-iraq-s/41304903007/ "There have been reports of maps circulating in federal offices, well before the war, identifying Iraqi oil deposits and US oil firms that could extract them. " As for Saddam being a prick, that is an understatement. However when it suited the US in the Iran - Iraq war he was " their prick", supporting his dictatorship when it suited them. Just like they supported the Shahs brutal dictatorship when it suited them. As I posted in in the conscription thread, article about dictatorships and Warlords the US has supported over the years. " He may be an SOB, but he's our SOB " And I totally agree all those guys you have mentioned are not just pricks, that are criminals that deserve to stand trial in the international court. I feel sorry for the people in the middle east who have to live under despotic leaders. How do you feel about Mohammad Bin chain saw ? Who is the titular head of one of the worlds most authoritarian regimes. They are great buddies with the US https://theconversation.com/saudi-arabia-is-a-repressive-regime-and-so-are-a-lot-of-us-allies-105106 " Saudi Arabia ranks just above north Korea on political rights, civil liberties and other measures of freedom according to the democracy watchdog Freedom House " I could post many more articles about the " West's " hypocrisy when it comes to freedom and justice. Edited February 22 by Ilunga Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurn Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 33 minutes ago, Ilunga said: There was one main reason the US invaded Iraq. Oil. Operation Iraqi Lliberation was about oil? Who would have guessed? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 (edited) 3 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said: Ali Abdullah Saleh once described ruling a Muslim country as “dancing over the heads of snakes.” This quote while not from a political leader, I believe is more pertinent in relation to finding a peaceful resolution to this conflict. " We need political leadership that will move the world away from war into solving it's problems through dialogue and negotiation, to build friendship with people, which is not we've had with this war on terror " Mairead Corrigan Do you remember that article I posted about the Road to Recovery organisation in Isreal and the occupied territories. The anecdote about the Palestinian woman who had never met a Jewish person who had been kind to her until she met the person who volunteered to drive her kids to hospital ? Gave her kids sweets. How that changed her view of Isrealis. So many people underestimate the power of kindness and empathy to change peoples beliefs. Edited February 22 by Ilunga 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 12 hours ago, Taxi said: The blockade on Gaza occurred after Hamas took over. October 7 revealed why it was necessary to blockade Gaza in the first place. October 7 only occurred after Israel started giving out 40k work permits/day to allow Palestinians into Israel. Hamas operatives used that opportunity to gather information about Israel and where to strike civilians. If the Palestinians had chosen someone other than Hamas, they would not have been treated that way. Even then, Gaza was also blockaded by Egypt. Israel had zero control over the southern border. Hamas a terror group Israel helped create. https://www.japantimes.co.jp/commentary/2023/11/21/world/israel-failed-policy/ " Hamas for it's part, is alleged to have emerged out of the Isreali financed Islamist movement in Gaza with Israels then military governor in that territory, Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev disclosing in 1981 that he had been given a budget for funding Palestinian Islamists to counter the rising power of the Palestinian secularists. Hamas a spin off of the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood was formally established with Israels support soon after the first Intifada flared as an uprising against the Isreali occupation of Palestinian lands. Israels objective was twofold: to split the Palestinian nationalist movement led by Arafat and, more fundamentally to thwart the implementation of the two state solution for resolving the protracted Israeli - Palestinian conflict. By aiding the rise of an Islamist group whose charter rejected recognising the Israeli state. Israel sought to undermine the idea of a two state solution, including curbing western support for an independent Palestinian homeland. Isreals spy agency mossad played a role in this divide and rule game in the occupied territories. In a 1994 book , " The Other Side of Deception " Mossad whistleblower Victor Ostrovsky contended that aiding Hamas meshed with " Mossads general plan for an Arab world " run by fundamentalists " thereby leaving Isreal as " the only democratic rational country in the region " Avner Cohen a former Isreali religious affairs official involved in Gaza for over two decades told a newspaper interview in 2009 that, " Hamas, to my great regret, Israels creation. " Yes, Hamas, the terror group that Netanyahu propped up and Supported. " For Years Netanyahu Propped Up Hamas. Now It's Blown up in our faces. " The premiers policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood has resulted in wounds that will take years to heal. " https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 Reports of citizens protesting in both Rafah, despite being under siege, in the South & Jabalia in the North of Gaza. Wanting Sinwar to leave or die, Haniyeh to resign. Palestinians feel they have been sold out, left to their own blood. Also protests in South Lebanon. Not wanting Hamas influence & the fact Hamas are hiding here to spill Lebanese civilian blood! Hezbollah are very powerful, more than Hamas. Yet could face more Palestinians being expelled & more civil war against the Lebanese army itself; not just Israel. So Hezbollah is encouraging Hamas to release hostages. Haniyeh still wants some of those, in ten to one ratio's, who have killed Jews for the cause to be released. Still wants to consolidate his most effective fighters from the safety of his hotel in Qatar. While Palestinian civilians are suffering. The offer should be to sacrifice both Sinwar, and the murderous brood already in jail. Return all the hostages if Israel forgoes any further attack. Which offers Palestinian civilians their lives. This is why Gazan's are now protesting. They have come to realize they are not important to the discussion / negotiation. I categorize it as just starting; not overwhelming? Regardless, its starting @Super19. Its also significant. Protesting under the iron fist of Hamas would get you killed over the last 15 years. They see an opportunity to get rid of these bastards! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 https://twitter.com/i/status/1750095698790400127 Women & children protesting! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 16 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said: Reports of citizens protesting in both Rafah, despite being under siege, in the South & Jabalia in the North of Gaza. Wanting Sinwar to leave or die, Haniyeh to resign. Palestinians feel they have been sold out, left to their own blood. Also protests in South Lebanon. Not wanting Hamas influence & the fact Hamas are hiding here to spill Lebanese civilian blood! Hezbollah are very powerful, more than Hamas. Yet could face more Palestinians being expelled & more civil war against the Lebanese army itself; not just Israel. So Hezbollah is encouraging Hamas to release hostages. Haniyeh still wants some of those, in ten to one ratio's, who have killed Jews for the cause to be released. Still wants to consolidate his most effective fighters from the safety of his hotel in Qatar. While Palestinian civilians are suffering. The offer should be to sacrifice both Sinwar, and the murderous brood already in jail. Return all the hostages if Israel forgoes any further attack. Which offers Palestinian civilians their lives. This is why Gazan's are now protesting. They have come to realize they are not important to the discussion / negotiation. I categorize it as just starting; not overwhelming? Regardless, its starting @Super19. Its also significant. Protesting under the iron fist of Hamas would get you killed over the last 15 years. They see an opportunity to get rid of these bastards! Meanwhile it looks like Israel is facing unified armed factions on 3 fronts - the North, Gaza and West Bank. Starving the people of Gaza to the point of famine and insanity is exactly what Israel wants. Israel wants Gaza to suffer, to go crazy, to starve, to leave, to die, to turn on Hamas and fight them themselves. Israel has been targetting Gazans since Oct 8. What has Israel accomplished besides leveling Gaza and terrorizing them? Hamas is still capable in Gaza. Any deterioration of Hamas in Gaza would be bolstered 10x by a Hezbollah escalation. And West Bank factions are making some noise. Do you refute any of this? If not... Israel has accomplished nothing for the return of hostages or for the peace and security of Israel through IDF atrocities. And they sure as fuck haven't made Gazan lives better and fuck anyone who says this. Gazans know that it is not Hamas that is killing them. Gazans know that Hamas isn't hiding behind them. Gazans know that giving up Hamas will make their lives no better under Israeli oppression&occupation. Gazans know they have been living in an open air prison. Palestinians remember the crimes against humanity that Israel has been committing for a long time pre Oct 7. Gazans know Israel wants them all killed or displaced. Gazans know that Israel wants Gaza for the Zionists. Perhaps a reason Egypt won't take refugees is because Egypt knows Gazans won't be allowed back in Gaza. Gazans want the world to see what Israel is doing to them, and they've been showing it. Why haven't we seen journalists like Motaz, or any person in Gaza who still have phones and internet access, do what Israel wants them to do - turn on Hamas in unification? Gazans are being indiscriminately killed by the IDF en masse right now anyway. Do you not question why, if death is assured to them either way, they wouldn't make their dying plea to condemn Hamas? But they rather just document for the world what the IDF is doing to them. They are not Jew haters because of this, and the true antisemites are the Zionists who are backing the IDF and supporting IDF atrocities on the Palestinians in the name of Judaism. I have seen more Jews supporting Palestine and condemning Israel&IDF&Zionism with the whole "NOT IN MY NAME" crowd, vs those whom your post suggests. Perhaps understand this struggle better. Gazans are fighting for their lives to have their right to self-determination. You say Hamas surrenders and this all stops? Wrong. Lasting peace WILL happen if Israel just freaking frees Palestine. But this Zionist regime says they will NEVER let that happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 Imagine being in Gaza and hearing "you don't exist" from the same people that are raining down bombs on you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 5 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said: Reports of citizens protesting in both Rafah, despite being under siege, in the South & Jabalia in the North of Gaza. Wanting Sinwar to leave or die, Haniyeh to resign. Palestinians feel they have been sold out, left to their own blood. I categorize it as just starting; not overwhelming? This is about time. It only took four and a half months for the Good People of Gaza to find a voice. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 37 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said: This is about time. It only took four and a half months for the Good People of Gaza to find a voice. This is the only way decades of rinse and repeat violence will end, imo anyway. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 5 hours ago, Super19 said: Meanwhile it looks like Israel is facing unified armed factions on 3 fronts This was always the case. Thanks for clarifying you support these activities in your longer post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 1 hour ago, Super19 said: Imagine being in Gaza and hearing "you don't exist" from the same people that are raining down bombs on you. The opposite; here is UNRWA curriculum spread to 320,000 Palestinian students. I do despise the RW extremist components of the Israeli govt. Including her, the finance & defense minister. With good fortune they will be voted out. With better fortune arrested. But that won't make their stance, below, or yours legitimate. As long as people revel in calling for violence. Regardless Israel or Palestine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 9 hours ago, Super19 said: Meanwhile it looks like Israel is facing unified armed factions on 3 fronts All these other countries missed the bugle call. Hezbollah & Houthis are busy ethnic cleansing 'their own' countries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 23 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said: All these other countries missed the bugle call. Hezbollah & Houthis are busy ethnic cleansing 'their own' countries. funny how Sup19 tends to ignore that kind of thing. Muslim on Muslim genocide is OK I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 4 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said: What are your thoughts on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 1 minute ago, Super19 said: What are your thoughts on this? China can show Israel the way, when they do this for the Uyghurs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 4 minutes ago, Bob Long said: China can show Israel the way, when they do this for the Uyghurs. Seeing as you're against a ceasefire in Gaza I don't think you care about anything other than what US foreign policy dictates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 10 minutes ago, Super19 said: Seeing as you're against a ceasefire in Gaza when did I post that? 10 minutes ago, Super19 said: I don't think you care about anything other than what US foreign policy dictates. again, when did I say that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 15 minutes ago, Bob Long said: when did I post that? again, when did I say that? I haven't seen you condemn US veto once. I've been pushing for a ceasefire and diplomacy the moment I saw Israel's aggression for what it is - a genocidal rage. Earlier on escalations were not happening, but then Houthis got involved, then a bit of Hezbollah and now it's spilling into the West Bank. And the atrocities in Gaza continue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 Just now, Super19 said: What are your thoughts on this? Look, to a degree I actually agree. In spite of it being China. Israel displaying a fair amount of activity, pre Oct 7, that would be an issue for any neighboring country. Here is the problem. Its Hamas. Creating two key issues for me. In spite of Israel being opportunistic / abusive. Taking advantage of the fact Hamas were in fact spellbound in stupidity. Attacking when they had no hope in hell of overwhelming all Jews at this juncture. Guys like Sinwar getting too old, needing a legacy before they die... 1) I don't view them, nor would I Hezbollah, as defending or legitimate leaders of their people. * They lead their country by force, extinguishing by violence internal opposition. Exterminating & expelling minorities. Women as social caretakers who provide sex, house cleaning & children. Women, and those who do not take up arms are subjugated to either serve, or offer payola & compliance to exist within their structure. * Their interest in ''releasing hostages' is having the most murderous & important fighters of Hamas be free'd. * Not that Palestinian people have freedom, a home, the peace that many protestors around the world call for. * Palestinians are just pawns, one level higher in feudal hierarchy than opponents. * Equal to allies, units which help serve their goals. 2) Look at Oct 7; Do you know why so many women, elderly, children were attacked, mutilated & taken hostage? * It's a message that they are simply possessions to be used as the male control figures in Hamas please. Offer to their subjects as reward for taking up arms. * They, like the IDF are simply in the way of praying to the West. * It's not that I believe religion, simply a tool of leverage & recruitment, is their actual holy quest? * Hamas leaders feel they are entitled to rule, that others pay and serve them. * Their mantra says they would be at war well past exterminating Jews & controlling the Middle east. For the record I oppose Israeli abuse in the West Bank. Begrudgingly accept that occupation is probably required considering the attacks & terrorism that have been launched from the West Bank. Which does not excuse the brutality or theft of land. They should be caretakers only held to a higher standard of objectivity while in control. Committed to developing a peaceful group who might rule and help those in the West Bank lead a peaceful life under their watch. That this is not true suggests Israel should be held to account. Gaza is different. Being held to account is not the rape and slaughter which occurred Oct 7. Israel left in 2006. Gaza, unfortunately developed under an even more oppressive & brutal regime; Hamas. Opposition Fatah & PA, LGBTQ, minorities, those who don't surrender their children to dig tunnels falling out of buildings. Payola under the siege of armed gangs. Ethnic cleansing; there are no more Jews, perhaps understandable? Why have almost all Christians, other sects of Islam, other religions left. I don't support the outright attack of Gaza because of the collateral damage. Its too overwhelming. I supported the siege pre Oct 7, advocated an even greater embargo & sanctions. Although a lost cause if Hamas is committed to do it again, and again, and again; a lost cause? I do hope Palestinians can at least have different leadership! We should be cheering for the freedom Palestinian people actually deserve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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