Canuck Surfer Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 10 minutes ago, Ilunga said: How does pointing out the truth, providing factual information, It comes across as finger pointing. If not pointed out in context. So in so had a right to rape that girl Oct 7th is a point received by many! Is not your point, but repeatedly pointing to land theft is one sided. So & so took hostages, and the solution is for Israel not to steal land? That land owners harbour Hamas or Hezbollah who fire missiles? An argument, sorry the finger RW Israeli extremists then point in return. Which also has basis in fact. Another example, Super 19 does not like when people suggest civilian's are used as human shields. People are simply mad that civilians are dying. He has a point. My goal in this conversation is encouraging self justice by Israelis'. Self justice by Palestinians / Hamas. World courts & third parties then shortly after if no one is willing. I am less convinced the UN can be of any great service. They did as much for Bosniaks, or those in Belgrade as they are doing for Gaza. But Milosevich, Karadzic & Mladic were all ultimately brought to trial for genocidal activities. If Israel is guilty, give back the hostages & put Israel before the same courts. Just expect Sinwar & Haniyeh to receive their own invitations. Then someone make the invitation of a meaningful stride towards peace? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 16 minutes ago, Ilunga said: When you are referring to the world courts, you are talking about the International Criminal Court ? Or as it's also known the ICJ. The court that the US considers has no Jurisdiction, no Legitimacy and no Authority. Same with Israel. They have never turned in a Bush, Kissinger before him. Sooner or later guys like Arafat have to end up here before they die. Some have been tried & convicted. More soon if it is to hold merit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 2 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said: It comes across as finger pointing. If not pointed out in context. So in so had a right to rape that girl Oct 7th is a point received by many! Is not your point, but repeatedly pointing to land theft is one sided. So & so took hostages, and the solution is for Israel not to steal land? That land owners harbour Hamas or Hezbollah who fire missiles? An argument, sorry the finger RW Israeli extremists then point in return. Which also has basis in fact. Another example, Super 19 does not like when people suggest civilian's are used as human shields. People are simply mad that civilians are dying. He has a point. My goal in this conversation is encouraging self justice by Israelis'. Self justice by Palestinians / Hamas. World courts & third parties then shortly after if no one is willing. I am less convinced the UN can be of any great service. They did as much for Bosniaks, or those in Belgrade as they are doing for Gaza. But Milosevich, Karadzic & Mladic were all ultimately brought to trial for genocidal activities. If Israel is guilty, give back the hostages & put Israel before the same courts. Just expect Sinwar & Haniyeh to receive their own invitations. Then someone make the invitation of a meaningful stride towards peace? First off, you are the most balanced poster in this IMO. The point about the " right " to rape is not disputed by anyone in this thread. There is no justification for rape anytime, anywhere full stop ! In regards to finger pointing, as that article stated, the issue of Netanyahu's support of Hamas is largely ignored by the international press, and totally unacknowledged by the posters who so vocally support only Israel in this thread. And you bet I will " point my finger " at that corrupt asshole. As I have stated before, he is the middle easts version of PO1135809. As for land theft, that and the status of east Jerusalem are two of the biggest hurdles to a peaceful resolution to this conflict. As you well know, some posters don't believe it is land theft. They won't answer my question when I ask, how are the Palestinians meant to form a viable state, when they continually keep losing land ? Hamas in the west bank ? There has been reports of the odd Hamas fighter being killed in the west Bank however there is no evidence they have a significant presence. There are several terror organisations in the west bank however it gets back to actually granting the Palestinians a state of their own. Once that is done they will have no any sort of justification to fight in any way for a state of their own, they will have one. And no I don't believe they should use violence of any sort to fight for self determination. Give peace a chance by giving them their state. You know who I think will be ideal candidates for positions in a future Palestinian government, the Palestinian peacemakers that I have posted articles about. Remember these guys ? Combatants for Peace. I have posted several articles and videos about them. Here they are only a few weeks ago still having a crack towards a peaceful resolution to this conflict. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/10/world/middleeast/israelis-palestinians-peace-activists.html How about these guys They say our Youth are are future... Youth Against Settlements They use peaceful and non violent means to promote their message. https://www.vice.com/en/article/yvxznb/seeking-the-nonviolent-path-for-peace-in-hebron-396 " Amro is amongst dozens of leaders across the West Bank and east Jerusalem using non violent tactics, civil disobedience and direct action to challenge Isreals occupation. The work of these activists has gone largely unrecognised, with most of the international media attention focusing on rockets launched from Gaza and the increasing dominance of the right wing in Israeli politics. But for the past eight years, the group has been working to instill the principles of non violent resistance and civil disobedience in the hearts of Hebron's Palestinian youth, even if no-one is watching. " People want answers, new ideas, here are some. Do I believe this will be an easy process....fuck no. But we have to start somewhere. And I know you are conversant with my feelings on justice, in regards to your comments on self justice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 2 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said: They have never turned in a Bush, Kissinger before him. Sooner or later guys like Arafat have to end up here before they die. Some have been tried & convicted. More soon if it is to hold merit. Brother, Arafat died nearly 20 years ago. It's hard for a court to hold " merit " when the supposed leader of " the free world " doesn't even recognise it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 14 hours ago, Optimist Prime said: This is about time. It only took four and a half months for the Good People of Gaza to find a voice. My Heeb mate The Irrationality of rationality " Helen was living in her car, trying to feed her kids She got laid off from work and her house was repossessed It's hard to think clearly when it's 38 degrees Desperate people have been know to render desperate deeds But when she shot that family and moved into their home The paper read she suffered from dementia " Me Aisha was living in a tent trying to feed her kids Her house had been blown up and she had no where else to live It's hard to think clearly when you are continually being attacked Desperate people have been known to render desperate deeds So just because there's more important things- like feeding your family- than protesting your oppressors A poster on a hockey forum will mock you One example of the irrationality of rationality theory, dehumanisation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 ^ you would rather argue than appreciate that some Gazans are finally turning on the terrorists? what a strange world. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 @Canuck SurferI agree with a lot of what you say, but @Ilungais right, Palestinians deserve self determination. The finger of blame points to Israel first and foremost. For how Israel prevents a Palestinian state, and for how they are gciding in Gaza right now. Defeating Hamas is to give Palestine its rights. That's how you destroy Hamas. Not by destroying Gaza and the life living there. Its unbelievable what some of you guys are supporting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 (edited) 7 hours ago, Optimist Prime said: ^ you would rather argue than appreciate that some Gazans are finally turning on the terrorists? what a strange world. No, I don't like arguing with you. I am disheartened by your " backhanded " comments in regards to the Palestinians. That post I replied to, you didn't just say it was a good thing that the Palestinians were finally starting to reject Hamas. You sarcastically stated it had only taken them four months. As I pointed out, it's been hard for them to focus on anything else than surviving for the last four months. What would your first priority be in that situation ? Mine would be to try and survive and keep my family alive. And there have been your posts where you have mocked their situation in regards to receiving aid. The post where you mentioned Boko Haram in regards to giving them aid, when the conversation was about Palestinians receiving aid. Tell that wasn't an attempt to associate one of the worlds deadliest jihadist terror groups, with Palestinian civilians. Those scumbags have killed over 20,000 people, and displaced 2 million more. This is almost exactly what has/is happening to the Palestinians in Gaza. There was also that post where you tried making up a scenario to paint that Mayor of Palestinian village as some sort of provocateur, as though it was his fault armed Isreali civilians had the right to threaten him, and an Australian film crew, simply for showing them around his village. Apart from that, I totally agree with you that it is a really good thing that the Palestinians are finally realising that Hamas is the cause of their of problems in regards to them being their " leaders ". As I have said all along I believe they deserve leaders who should be helping them, as we all do. I have even posted suggestions/ideas about who those leaders should be. Palestinians who promote peace. Edited February 23 by Ilunga Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 6 minutes ago, Ilunga said: No, I don't like arguing with you. I am disheartened by your " backhanded " comments in regards to the Palestinians. That post I replied to, you didn't just say it was a good thing that the Palestinians were finally starting to reject Hamas. You sarcastically stated it had only taken them four months. As I pointed out, it's been hard for them to focus on anything else than surviving for the last four months. What would your first priority be in that situation ? Mine would be to try and survive and keep my family alive. And there have been your posts where you have mocked their situation in regards to receiving aid. The post where you mentioned Boko Haram in regards to giving them aid, when the conversation was about Palestinians receiving aid. Tell that wasn't an attempt to associate one of the worlds deadliest jihadist terror groups, with Palestinian civilians. Those scumbags have killed over 20,000 people, and displaced 2 million more. This is almost exactly what has/is happening to the Palestinians in Gaza. There was also that post where you tried making up a scenario to paint that Mayor of Palestinian village as some sort of provocateur, as though it was his fault armed Isreali civilians had the right to threaten him, and an Australian film crew, simply for showing them around his village. Apart from that, I totally agree with you that it is a really good thing that the Palestinians are finally realising that Hamas is the cause of their of problems in regards to them being their " leaders ". As I have said all along I believe they deserve leaders who should be helping them, as we all do. I have even posted suggestions/ideas about who those leaders should be. Palestinians who promote peace. Cool. Cheers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 3 hours ago, Super19 said: @Canuck SurferI agree with a lot of what you say, but @Ilungais right, Palestinians deserve self determination. The finger of blame points to Israel first and foremost. For how Israel prevents a Palestinian state, and for how they are gciding in Gaza right now. Defeating Hamas is to give Palestine its rights. That's how you destroy Hamas. Not by destroying Gaza and the life living there. Its unbelievable what some of you guys are supporting. self determination doesn't begin with blame and waiting for someone else to do something. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 4 hours ago, Super19 said: @Canuck SurferI agree with a lot of what you say, but @Ilungais right, Palestinians deserve self determination. The finger of blame points to Israel first and foremost. For how Israel prevents a Palestinian state, and for how they are gciding in Gaza right now. Defeating Hamas is to give Palestine its rights. That's how you destroy Hamas. Not by destroying Gaza and the life living there. Its unbelievable what some of you guys are supporting. Palestinians sure. No I don't support the Gaza offensive BTW. Even discussing the legitimacy of the IJC here. You are missing a key point. There is a bigger opposition to self determination than Israel. Israel is a different issue all together. Legitimate, should be held accountable but different. Having thought about it; the best IJC ruling would indeed demand Israel leave Gaza / East Jerusalem. Is there an organization currently capable of independent, non militant, administration? So it would take large, very large scale international intervention, peacekeeping forces. A coalition to help establish the rule of law, economic administration, police, property titles, legal taxation & border control without Israel. Then there is a common belief many have that Palestinians also have the right of determination over Israel. It has been part of the problem since day 1. So it still would not happen unless Palestinians agree to disarm. There also crimes by Palestinians to back up these concerns. Genocide and apartheid rampant in militant Islamic regimes. Real genocide, where 'competing' races are Marched to a ditch handcuffed & shot on mass. Who contribute to the belief a Muslim group rules Jerusalem. Its one thing for Israel to accede East Jerusalem. Its another to allow an armed 'neighbor' that believes also it deserves Tel Aviv, etc., etc. Strategic laws say the much powerful Israel will only allow Palestine when she is committed to a peaceful nation, eliminating, not ruled by it's terrorist component. A key to forming a nation will be initially committing to peace. In my mind, not just with Israel. East Jerusalem holds symbolically important territory to Christians, Bedouin, Orthodox Christians, Jews. Jerusalem should be a multicultural city regardless who administers. This would also be key to gaining the international support outside the Arab world, peacekeepers. But its also right! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 41 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said: Palestinians sure. No I don't support the Gaza offensive BTW. Even discussing the legitimacy of the IJC here. You are missing a key point. There is a bigger opposition to self determination than Israel. Israel is a different issue all together. Legitimate, should be held accountable but different. Having thought about it; the best IJC ruling would indeed demand Israel leave Gaza / East Jerusalem. Is there an organization currently capable of independent, non militant, administration? So it would take large, very large scale international intervention, peacekeeping forces. A coalition to help establish the rule of law, economic administration, police, property titles, legal taxation & border control without Israel. Then there is a common belief many have that Palestinians also have the right of determination over Israel. It has been part of the problem since day 1. So it still would not happen unless Palestinians agree to disarm. There also crimes by Palestinians to back up these concerns. Genocide and apartheid rampant in militant Islamic regimes. Real genocide, where 'competing' races are Marched to a ditch handcuffed & shot on mass. Who contribute to the belief a Muslim group rules Jerusalem. Its one thing for Israel to accede East Jerusalem. Its another to allow an armed 'neighbor' that believes also it deserves Tel Aviv, etc., etc. Strategic laws say the much powerful Israel will only allow Palestine when she is committed to a peaceful nation, eliminating, not ruled by it's terrorist component. A key to forming a nation will be initially committing to peace. In my mind, not just with Israel. East Jerusalem holds symbolically important territory to Christians, Bedouin, Orthodox Christians, Jews. Jerusalem should be a multicultural city regardless who administers. This would also be key to gaining the international support outside the Arab world, peacekeepers. But its also right! Don't forget about the Rohingya, a Muslim minority that have been the victims of genocide. Then there's the Uyghurs, another Muslim minority that is a victim of genocide/ethnocide. And then there is Pakistan, a country no one has really associated with mass killings since the early 70's. https://www.ushmm.org/genocide-prevention/blog/countries-at-risk-for-mass-killing-2022-23 Note that Pakistan heads this list. 11 of those countries mentioned currently have ongoing mass killing episodes. https://www.statista.com/statistics/975718/leading-countries-risk-genocide/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 5 hours ago, Ilunga said: No, I don't like arguing with you. I am disheartened by your " backhanded " comments in regards to the Palestinians. That post I replied to, you didn't just say it was a good thing that the Palestinians were finally starting to reject Hamas. You sarcastically stated it had only taken them four months. As I pointed out, it's been hard for them to focus on anything else than surviving for the last four months. What would your first priority be in that situation ? Mine would be to try and survive and keep my family alive. And there have been your posts where you have mocked their situation in regards to receiving aid. The post where you mentioned Boko Haram in regards to giving them aid, when the conversation was about Palestinians receiving aid. Tell that wasn't an attempt to associate one of the worlds deadliest jihadist terror groups, with Palestinian civilians. Those scumbags have killed over 20,000 people, and displaced 2 million more. This is almost exactly what has/is happening to the Palestinians in Gaza. There was also that post where you tried making up a scenario to paint that Mayor of Palestinian village as some sort of provocateur, as though it was his fault armed Isreali civilians had the right to threaten him, and an Australian film crew, simply for showing them around his village. Apart from that, I totally agree with you that it is a really good thing that the Palestinians are finally realising that Hamas is the cause of their of problems in regards to them being their " leaders ". As I have said all along I believe they deserve leaders who should be helping them, as we all do. I have even posted suggestions/ideas about who those leaders should be. Palestinians who promote peace. I have a bit more time to respond now and would like to expand on my two or three words and say: I appreciate your pointing those things out and I see your perspective. I get it. We do view the world differently but with a similar end goal, and I appreciate you for who you are. I am trying not to spend too many hours in this thread per week, the devastation all around, we agree, is horrific and not a great place to dwell in mentally. So I am trying to be quick and glib in my dispatches as I just don't want to constantly restate the things we know each have said here. You are a good man and I can not understate how much I like to hear from you, for me, I kind of just want to wait now and in a few short weeks or months the worst will be over and we can work on a lasting peace in the middle east. Perhaps. I want to encourage the gazans who are anti Hamas, and I think that will work towards our common goal of peace and prosperity. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said: I have a bit more time to respond now and would like to expand on my two or three words and say: I appreciate your pointing those things out and I see your perspective. I get it. We do view the world differently but with a similar end goal, and I appreciate you for who you are. I am trying not to spend too many hours in this thread per week, the devastation all around, we agree, is horrific and not a great place to dwell in mentally. So I am trying to be quick and glib in my dispatches as I just don't want to constantly restate the things we know each have said here. You are a good man and I can not understate how much I like to hear from you, for me, I kind of just want to wait now and in a few short weeks or months the worst will be over and we can work on a lasting peace in the middle east. Perhaps. I want to encourage the gazans who are anti Hamas, and I think that will work towards our common goal of peace and prosperity. Thank you for the kind words my friend, they really are appreciated. As I have continually stated I want both Isrealis and Palestinian to have what we enjoy in our societies. Firstly, a safe environment for them to raise their families in. Food on the table. Access to a good education. A future they can view with hope. I despair that a few extremists control the destiny of millions. Edit Oops fat fingers hit the wrong thing. In relation to the Palestinians rooting out Hamas on their own. I have given this a great deal of thought. Amongst the nicknames I have had over the years, one was " crazy dave ". Some people thought I was fearless in regards to risking my life in certain situations. If only they knew I was scared shitless and it was fear that drove me. I wanted to confront and overcome my fears. Anyway in regards to how this is pertinent to Palestinians confronting Hamas, I don't know if I would have had the courage even when I was young, dumb and did some really crazy shit to confront heavily armed fanatical extremists. I would certainly defend the people I love, that's a certaintanty. I have consistently posted all through this thread, people from both sides that are working towards a peaceful solution, they are my heroes. I believe that this is moral courage, and we need more people with this sort of courage if we hope to solve not only this conflict, but all the conflicts on this planet. Edit again I believe most of the people on this board are good people, yourself included, and by this I mean they have good hearts. As I keep stating, the only criteria I have for the people I have in my life is that they are good people. We are in 2 fantasy leagues together, I wouldn't be in those leagues if I didn't respect the people in them. Same for the Mafia games I play. There is one poster who is a regular on this board who I know is a person with great empathy. When a member will express that they are having a hard time IRL, I will often reach out and PM them to offer my support. They sometimes tell me that the person I have mentioned does the same thing. It costs us nothing to show compassion and empathy to each other, and we can change people's lives by doing it. Edited February 24 by Ilunga 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spur1 Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 1 hour ago, Ilunga said: Thank you for the kind words my friend, they really are appreciated. As I have continually stated I want both Isrealis and Palestinian to have what we enjoy in our societies. Firstly, a safe environment for them to raise their families in. Food on the table. Access to a good education. A future they can view with hope. I despair that a few extremists control the destiny of millions. Edit Oops fat fingers hit the wrong thing. In relation to the Palestinians rooting out Hamas on their own. I have given this a great deal of thought. Amongst the nicknames I have had over the years, one was " crazy dave ". Some people thought I was fearless in regards to risking my life in certain situations. If only they knew I was scared shitless and it was fear that drove me. I wanted to confront and overcome my fears. Anyway in regards to how this is pertinent to Palestinians confronting Hamas, I don't know if I would have had the courage even when I was young, dumb and did some really crazy shit to confront heavily armed fanatical extremists. I would certainly defend the people I love, that's a certaintanty. I have consistently posted all through this thread, people from both sides that are working towards a peaceful solution, they are my heroes. I believe that this is moral courage, and we need more people with this sort of courage if we hope to solve not only this conflict, but all the conflicts on this planet. Edit again I believe most of the people on this board are good people, yourself included, and by this I mean they have good hearts. As I keep stating, the only criteria I have for the people I have in my life is that they are good people. We are in 2 fantasy leagues together, I wouldn't be in those leagues if I didn't respect the people in them. Same for the Mafia games I play. There is one poster who is a regular on this board who I know is a person with great empathy. When a member will express that they are having a hard time IRL, I will often reach out and PM them to offer my support. They sometimes tell me that the person I have mentioned does the same thing. It costs us nothing to show compassion and empathy to each other, and we can change people's lives by doing it. We are all on this planet together. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 So this is the result of blocking UNRWA and allowing Zionists to block aid. Ironic, fighting terrorism looks like terrorism. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 20 minutes ago, Spur1 said: We are all on this planet together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 On the other hand: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 On 2/23/2024 at 6:26 PM, Ilunga said: They won't answer my question when I ask, how are the Palestinians meant to form a viable state, when they continually keep losing land ? 11 hours ago, Super19 said: The finger of blame points to Israel first and foremost. Peace will also only occur Palestine is not a terrorist state. Blaming Israel is pointless. Its easy; there is blame to be thrown. Those who support a Palestinian state? IMO you, we need to call for an end to violence at their end. The Palestinian end needs to call an end to violence by its own people! Super pointed out Jewish people in New York calling for an end to bloodshed. This is what Palestinian supporters need to be doing? Calling for an end to hostages, civilian hostages. Calling for an end to rape. Calling for tunnels to be closed? This is a double edged sword. Food has been smuggled in? So have weapons and mercenaries, missiles. Volunteer to lay down the missiles that even before Oct 7 were being launched from apartment buildings. Volunteer to ensure Christian and Orthodox churches, Synagogues, holy sites in East Jerusalem, if handed over are opened to all. Calling for an open forum; transparency of land titles. If we want peace for Palestinians? Call for their legitimate terrorists to be brought to justice. To be disarmed. It will require taking responsibility for Palestinian behaviour. As well as having faith that if you do so, justice will surface. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 Concern grows within Biden administration as Houthis continue attacks despite US strikes "Some senior officials inside the administration therefore believe that the Houthis would keep their word and stop their attacks if Israel ended its war in Gaza, ... Privately, however, some senior officials concede it is entirely possible the Houthis will stop if Israel does" https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/23/politics/concern-biden-administration-houthi-strikes/index.html Wow, the US finally clicks it in that the Houthis/Yemen will stop once US&Israel stop the genocide. Mind blowing. The US can either stop the genocide or blow Yemen up to bits and pieces - otherwise it looks like Yemen/Houthis are capable of continuing to enforce their naval blockade on Israel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 1 minute ago, Super19 said: Concern grows within Biden administration as Houthis continue attacks despite US strikes "Some senior officials inside the administration therefore believe that the Houthis would keep their word and stop their attacks if Israel ended its war in Gaza, ... Privately, however, some senior officials concede it is entirely possible the Houthis will stop if Israel does" https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/23/politics/concern-biden-administration-houthi-strikes/index.html Wow, the US finally clicks it in that the Houthis/Yemen will stop once US&Israel stop the genocide. Mind blowing. The US can either stop the genocide or blow Yemen up to bits and pieces - otherwise it looks like Yemen/Houthis are capable of continuing to enforce their naval blockade on Israel. Isn't this back to promoting terrorism? NVM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 Just now, Canuck Surfer said: Isn't this back to promoting terrorism? NVM. Where is the middle ground here? Supporting a ceasefire you apparently support Hamas/terrorism and are antisemetic. Vetoing a ceasefire and supporting Israels right to defend itself apparantly means you support genocide. Ceasefire or no ceasefire? Where is the middle ground? Israel stops? Hamas surrenders? Ceasefire & diplomacy makes both happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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