Ilunga Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 23 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said: These bolded parts remain an obvious conflict? Petey summed up Haniyeh in 2020 pretty well which also seems contradictory. Please repost this amended charter? Hide contents https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/hamas-its-own-words Ismail Haniyeh in 2020: He explained that Hamas rejects ceasefire agreements by which, “Gaza would become Singapore,” preferring to remain at war with Israel until a Palestinian state is established from the River to the Sea: “We cannot, in exchange for money or projects, give up Palestine and our weapons. We will not give up the resistance... We will not recognize Israel, Palestine must stretch from the [Jordan] River to the [Mediterranean] Sea.” Hamas official, Hamad Al-Regeb in an April 2023 sermon: He prayed for “annihilation” and “paralysis” of the Jewswhom he described as filthy animals: “[Allah] transformed them into filthy, ugly animals like apes and pigs because of the injustice and evil they had brought about.” Al-Regeb also prayed for the ability to “get to the necks of the Jews.” Hamas Political Bureau Chairman Saleh Al-Arouri in an August 2023 interview: He expressed Hamas’ desire for “total war” with Israel: “Therefore, we are convinced that if a total conflict begins, the airspace and seaports of this entity will be shut down, and they will not be able to live without electricity, water, and communications.” Ahmad Abd Al-Hadi (Hamas representative in Lebanon) in an October 12, 2023 TV show laid out Hamas’ expectation that it would be Israel that would sue for peace and indicated that a ceasefire is part of Hamas’ overall strategy, but said that he was not at liberty to say what exactly Hamas has planned for the next step after a ceasefire. He also stated that October 7 had achieved its intended purpose of landing “a blow to the normalization (of relations between Israel and Arab countries).” Hamas member, Ghazi Hamad on October 24, 2023: “Israel is a country that has no place on our land […] because it constitutes a security, military, and political catastrophe to the Arab and Islamic nation.” (October 24, 2023, LBC TV (Lebanon)). He also vowed to repeat the October 7 attacks “time and again until Israel is annihilated,” and expressing a desire to “sacrifice martyrs” (referring to Gazan civilians) for Hamas’ ideological aim of destroying Israel. In a speech before the International Union of Muslim Scholars in Doha on January 9, 2024, Ismaeel Haniyeh, chairman of Hamas's political bureau, called the October 7 massacre the “advanced [battle] front of the Ummah.” Calling for “financial jihad” (donations to Hamas) and “jihad of the teeth” (physical jihad), he asked the international audience, “Who wishes to invest in building the jihadist generation to liberate Jerusalem and to unite the Its further worth mentioning Gaza was Egyptian territory pre 1967. Even surrounding Arab countries did not recognize a Palestinian state at that time. Most tried to conquer these territories for themselves in 1948. Since have spent considerable time, expense slaughtering and expulsion of Palestinians from their own countries right up to modern times. Although I do believe they want no part of Gaza today? As long as there is a place to dump Palestinians who make a nuisance of themselves (as terrorists). That is what Gaza is useful to Arabs for. I can only find that Hamas updated their official charter in 2017. Please post evidence of an official update from that 2017 charter if you have access to it. Israeli defence minister Yoav Gallant " We are fighting human animals " https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/defense-minister-announces-complete-siege-of-gaza-no-power-food-or-fuel/ " Israeli Rabbi under fire for calling black people monkeys " https://abcnews.go.com/International/israeli-rabbi-fire-calling-black-people-monkeys/story?id=53929608 Erekat: Rabbi Ovadia calls for Palestinian Genocide " https://www.jpost.com/israel/erekat-rabbi-ovadia-called-for-palestinian-genocide " Nakba 2023: Israel's right wing minister's add fuel to Palestinian fears Some of that rhetoric can be seen as potentially genocidal from the way that it dehumanizes Palestinian civilians, one expert told NBC news after comments by Israeli government officials " https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gaza-nakba-israels-far-right-palestinian-fears-hamas-war-rcna123909 As for the rest, you seem to be stating that everyone shits on the Palestinians, which is totally true. Who cares if the Israelis do as well, right ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken. Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 10 hours ago, Ilunga said: For starters I never stated the west bank and Gaza should be joined together. What the Palestinians want, which is what the international community wants, is a Palestinian state pre 1967 war borders. Even Hamas softened their stance on this, amending their charter to accept this solution. They still did not recognise Israel's right to exist however. Do you realise how " tiny " these amounts of " territories " are in relation to our countries ? https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-24/how-big-is-the-gaza-strip/103001830 I live on the edge of Melbourne and I have to drive further than the length of Gaza just to get to the centre of the city. Don't get me wrong, Hamas has to go. But killing close to 20 thousand innocent women and children doing this ? My conscience tells me this is wrong. Just as my conscience tells me that October 7 was wrong. As I, and others keep saying, what has been tried so far hasn't worked, why not try giving them their national identity they so desperately want ? I have given legitimate suggestions as to who could be potential leaders, Palestinians who advocate for peace. The people I post articles and videos about. Elections that are overseen by independent International observers. If they keep using violence against the Israeli people they will lose most of their support and will no doubt lose their right to self determination. so Israel should revert to borders from 60 years ago and hope for the best because you think things cannot get any worse? Of course things can get much worse, for Israel anyway. How do you propose eliminating the Hamas organization in order to get to that point anyway? Terrorists can’t be negotiated with. I guess Iran will have to be taken down in tandem. I don’t think some independent election observors will be able to stop Hamas from laying low and seizing power when the opportunity presents itself. Especially if this new independent state were required to be demilitarized. Or do you think the new Palestine should be allowed to form a military as they please? So Israel will have to protect itself even more than it already does against a massive new border with a hostile nation. The events on Oct 7 could become a regular occurrence if that is how it is self determined and then i guess they would lose your support at the cost of more atrocities. I dont blame Israelis for not wanting to go this route. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 6 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said: Italian Canadians being viciously attacked in Toronto, Canada by Palestinian "protestors". Protestors spitting on the face of seniors and calling them "genocidal baby killers"... Marco Mendicino is an Italian Liberal MP who was at the event to meet with the Italian Prime Minister... Arrest, charge, trial, prison for those Canadians committing such hate crimes. If there are non Canadians doing these things deport them immediately. 1 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 8 hours ago, Ilunga said: Do you believe in an independent Palestinian state ? There has never been one. It is as fictional as a Kurdish Homeland, but I don't see you screaming and beating your chest about what Turkey is doing to the Kurds as you are here at least once a day about the people of Gaza. Believing in it is a silly concept. Do I believe it is a goal that is worth exploring? Yes. Do I think they should get it at the barrel of a gun? NO. The events of Oct 7th, in my opinion, which I am fairly confident is the prevailing one by the powers that be vis a vis Israel giving up control of lands, has set back the Palestinian Statehood movement by generations. Not a matter of belief in anything other than reality. Attacking the nation you rely on for gas, water, food and medicine and electricity but ALSO need the co-operation of to establish a home state was the stupidest policy yet of the governing Hamas group. If a two state solution ever really comes to pass, it will be at minimum 20 years away, and that was before Oct 7th, more likely now that it never happens. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 6 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said: There has never been one. It is as fictional as a Kurdish Homeland, but I don't see you screaming and beating your chest about what Turkey is doing to the Kurds as you are here at least once a day about the people of Gaza. Believing in it is a silly concept. Do I believe it is a goal that is worth exploring? Yes. Do I think they should get it at the barrel of a gun? NO. The events of Oct 7th, in my opinion, which I am fairly confident is the prevailing one by the powers that be vis a vis Israel giving up control of lands, has set back the Palestinian Statehood movement by generations. Not a matter of belief in anything other than reality. Attacking the nation you rely on for gas, water, food and medicine and electricity but ALSO need the co-operation of to establish a home state was the stupidest policy yet of the governing Hamas group. If a two state solution ever really comes to pass, it will be at minimum 20 years away, and that was before Oct 7th, more likely now that it never happens. which, imo, proves Hamas doesn't ever really want a homeland for Palestinians. What would they do with themselves in peacetime? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 Hopefully Oct 7th is the last time Hamas can make decisions for all of Gaza. They fired at least four rockets into Israel even yesterday and at minimum one more today already. Hamas is accomplishing nothing more than the destruction of any semblance of a life in Gaza for 2 million people. I crossposted this one from the religion thread because it is very apt: those Jihadists are living and dying for a complete pile of garbage that folds under the slightest scrutiny: which is why anyone who scrutinizes it is condemned to death by the various Imams. This is true of all religions, but where a religious effort is behind a war, that is particularly horrid. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 Quote UN finds 'convincing information' backing reports Hamas and other militants raped women on Oct. 7 Envoy says team believes such violence may be ongoing against those still in captivity The Associated Press · Posted: Mar 04, 2024 12:44 PM PST | Last Updated: 13 minutes ago https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/oct-7-sexual-violence-united-nations-reasonable-grounds-1.7133305 Hopefully this is the end of Hamas Apologists in this thread. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 14 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said: https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/oct-7-sexual-violence-united-nations-reasonable-grounds-1.7133305 Hopefully this is the end of Hamas Apologists in this thread. its not. My real concern is how far tolerance of Hamas has spread into our post secondary institutions. Is Langara a one-off? or the start of something else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taxi Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 (edited) 19 hours ago, Ilunga said: For starters I never stated the west bank and Gaza should be joined together. What the Palestinians want, which is what the international community wants, is a Palestinian state pre 1967 war borders. Even Hamas softened their stance on this, amending their charter to accept this solution. They still did not recognise Israel's right to exist however. Do you realise how " tiny " these amounts of " territories " are in relation to our countries ? https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-24/how-big-is-the-gaza-strip/103001830 I live on the edge of Melbourne and I have to drive further than the length of Gaza just to get to the centre of the city. Don't get me wrong, Hamas has to go. But killing close to 20 thousand innocent women and children doing this ? My conscience tells me this is wrong. Just as my conscience tells me that October 7 was wrong. As I, and others keep saying, what has been tried so far hasn't worked, why not try giving them their national identity they so desperately want ? I have given legitimate suggestions as to who could be potential leaders, Palestinians who advocate for peace. The people I post articles and videos about. Elections that are overseen by independent International observers. If they keep using violence against the Israeli people they will lose most of their support and will no doubt lose their right to self determination. The 1949-1967 borders were established by expelling all Jews from the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Israel has no obligation to return to these borders, particularly as they relate to Jerusalem. They offered the Palestinians borders that provided them with 100% of the Gaza Strip, 95% of the West Bank, and land swaps, worth at least 2% more of the West Bank with potentially more to follow. The Palestinians rejected these terms. They wanted the "river to the sea". Edited March 4 by Taxi 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 9 hours ago, Chicken. said: so Israel should revert to borders from 60 years ago and hope for the best because you think things cannot get any worse? Of course things can get much worse, for Israel anyway. How do you propose eliminating the Hamas organization in order to get to that point anyway? Terrorists can’t be negotiated with. I guess Iran will have to be taken down in tandem. I don’t think some independent election observors will be able to stop Hamas from laying low and seizing power when the opportunity presents itself. Especially if this new independent state were required to be demilitarized. Or do you think the new Palestine should be allowed to form a military as they please? So Israel will have to protect itself even more than it already does against a massive new border with a hostile nation. The events on Oct 7 could become a regular occurrence if that is how it is self determined and then i guess they would lose your support at the cost of more atrocities. I dont blame Israelis for not wanting to go this route. No I don't think that Israel should revert to the pre 1967 war borders only because I don't things can get any won't get worse. It's what they, and the international community want to happen. Yours and mine governments included. Don't know how many times I have said Hamas has to go. Where have I ever said the Palestinians should have their own military. You are ignoring things I have said in the past, and making up things I have never said. You say things can worse for the Israelis. How ? As I have posted before. In the period 2008 - 2020, the closest I could find that matched Hamas' rule 120,000 Palestinians were killed or injured compared to 5,800 Israelis https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/ You tell me who has had it " worse " I have already given solid suggestions as to who should lead a Palestinian state. The Palestinians who advocate for peace. The Palestinians I have posted articles and videos about. You are trying to find every reason not to give the Palestinians a state of their own. This will only serve to continue this circle of hatred. I am trying to find reasons to break the circle of hatred. To give the Palestinians what you and I enjoy. A safe environment to raise their kids. Hope for their future. Tell me what solutions are you offering to bring to an end, this never ending conflict. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken. Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 19 minutes ago, Ilunga said: No I don't think that Israel should revert to the pre 1967 war borders only because I don't things can get any won't get worse. It's what they, and the international community want to happen. Yours and mine governments included. Don't know how many times I have said Hamas has to go. Where have I ever said the Palestinians should have their own military. You are ignoring things I have said in the past, and making up things I have never said. You say things can worse for the Israelis. How ? As I have posted before. In the period 2008 - 2020, the closest I could find that matched Hamas' rule 120,000 Palestinians were killed or injured compared to 5,800 Israelis https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/ You tell me who has had it " worse " I have already given solid suggestions as to who should lead a Palestinian state. The Palestinians who advocate for peace. The Palestinians I have posted articles and videos about. You are trying to find every reason not to give the Palestinians a state of their own. This will only serve to continue this circle of hatred. I am trying to find reasons to break the circle of hatred. To give the Palestinians what you and I enjoy. A safe environment to raise their kids. Hope for their future. Tell me what solutions are you offering to bring to an end, this never ending conflict. I don't have the solutions, if any exist in a realistic sense, but you are also ignoring the points against. I already told you how things could get worse for Israelis. I didnt ask who currently “has it worse” as it isnt a competition. I never put words in your mouth about Palestine having its own military I just asked as a question which you didn’t really answer either. Nor did you answer how to eliminate Hamas as they ‘have to go’ you just make it seem simple and all will be fine once a sovereign state is created but its not that easy or risk free. What if Hamas overthrow the new government of the independent state. Another war? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 5 minutes ago, Chicken. said: I don't have the solutions, if any exist in a realistic sense, but you are also ignoring the points against. I already told you how things could get worse for Israelis. I didnt ask who currently “has it worse” as it isnt a competition. I never put words in your mouth about Palestine having its own military I just asked as a question which you didn’t really answer either. Nor did you answer how to eliminate Hamas as they ‘have to go’ you just make it seem simple and all will be fine once a sovereign state is created but its not that easy or risk free. What if Hamas overthrow the new government of the independent state. Another war? It's pretty clear Gazans have it worse, but Hamas is still popular. So dunno, if this latest war isn't yet bad enough to change minds, I don't know what is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 6 hours ago, Optimist Prime said: There has never been one. It is as fictional as a Kurdish Homeland, but I don't see you screaming and beating your chest about what Turkey is doing to the Kurds as you are here at least once a day about the people of Gaza. Believing in it is a silly concept. Do I believe it is a goal that is worth exploring? Yes. Do I think they should get it at the barrel of a gun? NO. The events of Oct 7th, in my opinion, which I am fairly confident is the prevailing one by the powers that be vis a vis Israel giving up control of lands, has set back the Palestinian Statehood movement by generations. Not a matter of belief in anything other than reality. Attacking the nation you rely on for gas, water, food and medicine and electricity but ALSO need the co-operation of to establish a home state was the stupidest policy yet of the governing Hamas group. If a two state solution ever really comes to pass, it will be at minimum 20 years away, and that was before Oct 7th, more likely now that it never happens. There never was an independent Canadian state at one point in time. There never was an independent Australian state at one point in time. And not that Iong ago in the scheme of things, just under 125 years ago. So with this post you are basically denying the right of the Palestinians to have a state of their own, just because they have never had an independent state. How many times to I have to say I condemn Hamas' use of violence, in regards to your barrel of a gun. And you must remember, the state of Israel was formed off the back of many barrels of guns. And acts of terror. And what's with the hyperbolic comment about me beating my chest about the Kurds ? I was the first to actually bring them up in this thread, stating I feel sorry for them most of all. They get screwed by everyone. Here's a reminder of when I first brought up the Kurds " And the Irish hate the Irish And it's Arab versus Jew You're cactus if you're Kurdish " TISM As I have previously stated, the Irish have got their shit together. We are two thirds of the way there. If there was a thread about the Kurds, I would be advocating for them to have freedom and justice, just like I do for the Palestinians. Just as I state that freedom and justice are basic human rights that everyone should enjoy. I would start one up however I am reasonably certain that it would be like the thread I started about Yemen on the old board. Apart from the obvious couple of compassionate people who contributed, no one else cared. And why do they rely on that nation ? Because that nation has blockaded them, and occupied their other territories. You should well know, I strongly believe in freedom and justice for everyone. That's part of the reason I am in this thread, and on this board everyday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 3 hours ago, Optimist Prime said: https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/oct-7-sexual-violence-united-nations-reasonable-grounds-1.7133305 Hopefully this is the end of Hamas Apologists in this thread. This thread criticizes the UN report. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 2 hours ago, Bob Long said: its not. My real concern is how far tolerance of Hamas has spread into our post secondary institutions. Is Langara a one-off? or the start of something else? "Israel said so" is not evidence. Israel lies. A lot. This is well known from the past several months. It's probably the start of people waking up to the lies and propaganda being spread that enables this occupational Zionist apartheid state of Israel. Look at all the mass demonstrations all around the world, marching in the millions in peaceful protest every week if not everyday. When was the last time you've seen a people movement this strong encompassing all around the globe, both East and West, North and South? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken. Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 5 minutes ago, Bob Long said: It's pretty clear Gazans have it worse, but Hamas is still popular. So dunno, if this latest war isn't yet bad enough to change minds, I don't know what is. Yes obviously Gazans have it worse than Israelis. The goal shouldnt be to try and even that out… it should be to maintain Israel’s security, minimize risk, while at the same time increasing Palestinians prosperity and independence. Its a tough puzzle to solve with many moving pieces particularly the eliminating terrorists and iranian support part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 Buh, still got the hamas apologists. Dang. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 Bummer, still got the Zionist apartheid State of Israel supporters. 80% of the people they killed are women and children. Among many many other terrible crimes like sniping kids, killing premature babies, bulldozing over civillians causing their guts to spill out, looting homes and playing with underwear, throwing away food when children and starving, preventing aid from coming in, and the you know the whole occupation, oppression, apartheid genocide stuff. Also ironic how the IDF is accussed of rape but not a peep has been said. How tragic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 3 hours ago, Taxi said: The 1949-1967 borders were established by expelling all Jews from the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Israel has no obligation to return to these borders, particularly as they relate to Jerusalem. They offered the Palestinians borders that provided them with 100% of the Gaza Strip, 95% of the West Bank, and land swaps, worth at least 2% more of the West Bank with potentially more to follow. The Palestinians rejected these terms. They wanted the "river to the sea". This is not telling the whole story, according to Ehud Olmert, the Isreali PM who was negotiating with Abbas, states, Abbas actually never said no to the deal https://jordantimes.com/news/region/abbas-never-said-‘no’-my-plan-says-israels-former-pm-olmert Now it has been reported that Abbas has since stated he rejected the plan, but as you can see, the person who was negotiating with him at the time has stated Abbas never rejected the deal out right, at the time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 36 minutes ago, Super19 said: "Israel said so" is not evidence. Israel lies. A lot. This is well known from the past several months. It's probably the start of people waking up to the lies and propaganda being spread that enables this occupational Zionist apartheid state of Israel. Look at all the mass demonstrations all around the world, marching in the millions in peaceful protest every week if not everyday. When was the last time you've seen a people movement this strong encompassing all around the globe, both East and West, North and South? hey remind me again, which ME country is a democracy? which one treats women as equals? 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 35 minutes ago, Chicken. said: Yes obviously Gazans have it worse than Israelis. The goal shouldnt be to try and even that out… it should be to maintain Israel’s security, minimize risk, while at the same time increasing Palestinians prosperity and independence. Its a tough puzzle to solve with many moving pieces particularly the eliminating terrorists and iranian support part. its not, if everyone in the region actually wants peace. But then there something that happen 700 years ago, and then like 50 or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 At least the Hamas apologist isn't trying to hide it anymore..from the river to the see, amiright? lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 9 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said: At least the Hamas apologist isn't trying to hide it anymore..from the river to the see, amiright? lol. No, man, they are just talking about a day hike in Garry Point Park in Richmond. Stop reading into it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 55 minutes ago, Super19 said: marching in the millions in peaceful protest You feel that blocking our Prime Minister from meeting the Italian head of state is peaceful? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 1 minute ago, Optimist Prime said: You feel that blocking our Prime Minister from meeting the Italian head of state is peaceful? The organizer said it was "better than the alternative". Veiled threat there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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