Hamas attacking Israel

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, Chicken. said:

I don't have the solutions, if any exist in a realistic sense, but you are also ignoring the points against. I already told you how things could get worse for Israelis.

I didnt ask who currently “has it worse” as it isnt a competition. I never put words in your mouth about Palestine having its own military I just asked as a question which you didn’t really answer either. Nor did you answer how to eliminate Hamas as they ‘have to go’ you just make it seem simple and all will be fine once a sovereign state is created but its not that easy or risk free. What if Hamas overthrow the new government of the independent state. Another war?

 

1 hour ago, Chicken. said:

I don't have the solutions, if any exist in a realistic sense, but you are also ignoring the points against. I already told you how things could get worse for Israelis.

I didnt ask who currently “has it worse” as it isnt a competition. I never put words in your mouth about Palestine having its own military I just asked as a question which you didn’t really answer either. Nor did you answer how to eliminate Hamas as they ‘have to go’ you just make it seem simple and all will be fine once a sovereign state is created but its not that easy or risk free. What if Hamas overthrow the new government of the independent state. Another war?

 

So you are willing to criticise one side, the Palestinians, while totally ignoring the injustices visited upon the Palestinian people, while also not offering any solutions ? 

 

You criticise Hamas' and rightfully so.

How about the Isreali right wing extremists that control their government.

The extremist settlers and soldiers who assault and kill with impunity Palestinians civilians in the West Bank ?

 

 

And of course there's a solution, let the peacemakers on both sides make the deal.

The problem is the nutbag extremists on both sides control the narrative.

 

 

 

As for your detailing made up scenarios of how things could get worse.

They already have borders, which they, the Isrealis ignore in the case of the West Bank,  from which they continue to steal more land from the Palestinians there.

 

And no of course I don't believe they should have a military.

I do believe they have the right to police their own citizens. 

 

Yes it's not a competition, however as you can see there are nearly 25 times more Palestinian victims in that time period than Isreali victims.

Like WTF man, there were 120,000 between Palestinian killed and injured between 2008 and 2020 alone, how fucked up is that. 

 

And yes it's fucked up that 5,800 Isrealis were victims to, but you can see how one sided those figures are. 

 

Yes I have stated Hamas' has to go, however at the cost of 20,000 innocent women and children ?

And who knows how more to come ?

 

Do you believe that mass murder, October 7,  1200 people justifies mass murder, the last four months in Gaza, 20,000 people.

And the virtual destruction of Gaza itself ?

I don't.

 

And you have obviously not read all my posts or you don't remember them.

 

To paraphrase one post 

 

Do I believe this will be an easy process, fuck no.

 

I am looking for the ways and means to bring an end to this never ending conflict.

I am the only poster who posts articles and videos about Palestinians and Israelis working together for peace. 

 

You seem to want to find every reason there is for this conflict to continue.

 

 

[Optimist Prime]

1 hour ago, Ilunga said:

 

If there was a thread about the Kurds, I would be advocating for them to have freedom and justice, just like ...

 

I remember now we cover3d this already. I believe you would. My bad on the rhetorical example. 

[testycal]

17 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

 

So you are willing to criticise one side, the Palestinians, while totally ignoring the injustices visited upon the Palestinian people, while also not offering any solutions ? 

 

You criticise Hamas' and rightfully so.

How about the Isreali right wing extremists that control their government.

The extremist settlers and soldiers who assault and kill with impunity Palestinians civilians in the West Bank ?

 

 

And of course there's a solution, let the peacemakers on both sides make the deal.

The problem is the nutbag extremists on both sides control the narrative.

 

 

 

As for your detailing made up scenarios of how things could get worse.

They already have borders, which they, the Isrealis ignore in the case of the West Bank,  from which they continue to steal more land from the Palestinians there.

 

And no of course I don't believe they should have a military.

I do believe they have the right to police their own citizens. 

 

Yes it's not a competition, however as you can see there are nearly 25 times more Palestinian victims in that time period than Isreali victims.

Like WTF man, there were 120,000 between Palestinian killed and injured between 2008 and 2020 alone, how fucked up is that. 

 

And yes it's fucked up that 5,800 Isrealis were victims to, but you can see how one sided those figures are. 

 

Yes I have stated Hamas' has to go, however at the cost of 20,000 innocent women and children ?

And who knows how more to come ?

 

Do you believe that mass murder, October 7,  1200 people justifies mass murder, the last four months in Gaza, 20,000 people.

And the virtual destruction of Gaza itself ?

I don't.

 

And you have obviously not read all my posts or you don't remember them.

 

To paraphrase one post 

 

Do I believe this will be an easy process, fuck no.

 

I am looking for the ways and means to bring an end to this never ending conflict.

I am the only poster who posts articles and videos about Palestinians and Israelis working together for peace. 

 

You seem to want to find every reason there is for this conflict to continue.

 

You cannot and should not make generalized comments as you have done in red ..I have not followed this thread but I have to respond. The IDF deals with security in the West Bank.  The West Bank is a "kinder gentler" version of Gaza but under its surface it harbours hatred against Jews.  The reason why the IDF operates in the West Bank as it is attempting to prevent terrorist attacks against civilians on a daily basis ie think running over persons waiting at a bus stop, shooting them while waiting for a bus, shooting at them while Israelis are driving their vehicles, making their way to Tel Aviv or Jerusalem to carry out attacks etc.  Your statement sounds like settlers and the IDF murder those living in the West Bank for fun.  The same prisoners in Israeli jails from the West Bank are there for a reason..they have tried to murder jews and or did murders jews and survived their own attack. These are the people Hamas wants to exchange for..fine upstanding citizens.  Your comment only inflames rhetoric because that is not what is taking place.  By the way..for every report of IDF preventing an atta k is accompanied by many many more that do not get reported in the Western media.  Without a strong IDF presence on the West Bank borders and operations inside the West Bank, it would be Gaza II....and without being naive, it may already be that replete with tunnels and rockets.

 

Edited March 5 by testycal

[Chicken.]

7 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

 

So you are willing to criticise one side, the Palestinians, while totally ignoring the injustices visited upon the Palestinian people, while also not offering any solutions ? 

 

You criticise Hamas' and rightfully so.

How about the Isreali right wing extremists that control their government.

The extremist settlers and soldiers who assault and kill with impunity Palestinians civilians in the West Bank ?

 

 

And of course there's a solution, let the peacemakers on both sides make the deal.

The problem is the nutbag extremists on both sides control the narrative.

 

 

 

As for your detailing made up scenarios of how things could get worse.

They already have borders, which they, the Isrealis ignore in the case of the West Bank,  from which they continue to steal more land from the Palestinians there.

 

And no of course I don't believe they should have a military.

I do believe they have the right to police their own citizens. 

 

Yes it's not a competition, however as you can see there are nearly 25 times more Palestinian victims in that time period than Isreali victims.

Like WTF man, there were 120,000 between Palestinian killed and injured between 2008 and 2020 alone, how fucked up is that. 

 

And yes it's fucked up that 5,800 Isrealis were victims to, but you can see how one sided those figures are. 

 

Yes I have stated Hamas' has to go, however at the cost of 20,000 innocent women and children ?

And who knows how more to come ?

 

Do you believe that mass murder, October 7,  1200 people justifies mass murder, the last four months in Gaza, 20,000 people.

And the virtual destruction of Gaza itself ?

I don't.

 

And you have obviously not read all my posts or you don't remember them.

 

To paraphrase one post 

 

Do I believe this will be an easy process, fuck no.

 

I am looking for the ways and means to bring an end to this never ending conflict.

I am the only poster who posts articles and videos about Palestinians and Israelis working together for peace. 

 

You seem to want to find every reason there is for this conflict to continue.

 

 

In my initial post in this recent flurry I already said Israel is not innocent. You retorted by downplaying their democratic status when by comparison with their neighbouring counterparts it is night and day. 
 

The question of justification is tricky as Hamas needs to be held to account and fighting guerilla warfare style results in far too many civilian casualties. I would obviously prefer if the IDF were more precise in their attacks to limit damage. They have been too reckless in their pursuit I can admit, and once again neither side is innocent. Hamas shares a disproportionate amount of the blame though for these last 4 months.
 

You live in a bit of a fantasy land which is fine if that floats your boat, but i think any solution should be critiqued for how realistic it is and the potential repercussions.

Hopefully the peacemakers on both sides are able to make a deal that includes the eradication of Hamas while minimizing innocent deaths and eliminates the potential for them to rise again via Iranian influence. That will be hard to do with a demilitarized sovereign Palestinian state. How or when that will happen all seems quite far out.

[Super19]

Zionists in Canada coming out with their nail guns now, yikes.

 

 

[Optimist Prime]

2 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Zionists in Canada coming out with their nail guns now, yikes.

 

 

Yeah, fuck that racist asshole.   I think we can all agree there.

 

Edit, pardon my explicit language, I am incredibly upset by violent racists here in Canada. There is never an okay moment here for violence.

[testycal]

The nail gun guy receives his punishment..that is good. However, violence, threats, intimidation exercised by groups of Palestinian supports also need to be punished.  Is it so hard to enjoy the freedoms of a democratic Canada by standing on the side of the road with signs instead of blocking traffic, preventing meetings from taking place, shaming politician for speaking the truth ie Selina R (she is correct Israel pre 48 was a crappy piece of land..unsere how that offends Palestinians..should offend my grandparents who worked that crappy land and made it better in the early 1930's)...I could go on.....

[Super19]

8 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

Yeah, fuck that racist asshole.   I think we can all agree there.

 

Edit, pardon my explicit language, I am incredibly upset by violent racists here in Canada. There is never an okay moment here for violence.

And I do hope all these peaceful pro Palestine protests stay peaceful and within the bounds of what is reasonably accepted from such protests. I know traffic being blocked and Spiderman climbing buildings is annoying tho. 

 

But protestors should not aggressively engage with the hecklers on the opposing side. Probably no engagement at all.

 

Im thankful that after Hundreds of thousands are showing up to the protests in Canada weekly here and Millions around the world but no major and violent incidents. Despite the anger and frustration felt by these millions.

[Ilunga]

35 minutes ago, testycal said:

 

 

Gotta love this.

 

Two likes for a post, the poster didn't even have the courage to commit to.

[Chicken.]

2 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Gotta love this.

 

Two likes for a post, the poster didn't even have the courage to commit to.

His (or her) reply is in the quotations, by mistake I imagine…..

Edited March 5 by Chicken.

[Bob Long]

31 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Zionists in Canada coming out with their nail guns now, yikes.

 

 

 

It's a terrible incident, but why are you making it plural? 

[Ilunga]

31 minutes ago, Chicken. said:

In my initial post in this recent flurry I already said Israel is not innocent. You retorted by downplaying their democratic status when by comparison with their neighbouring counterparts it is night and day. 
 

The question of justification is tricky as Hamas needs to be held to account and fighting guerilla warfare style results in far too many civilian casualties. I would obviously prefer if the IDF were more precise in their attacks to limit damage. They have been too reckless in their pursuit I can admit, and once again neither side is innocent. Hamas shares a disproportionate amount of the blame though for these last 4 months.
 

You live in a bit of a fantasy land which is fine if that floats your boat, but i think any solution should be critiqued for how realistic it is and the potential repercussions.

Hopefully the peacemakers on both sides are able to make a deal that includes the eradication of Hamas while minimizing innocent deaths and eliminates the potential for them to rise again via Iranian influence. That will be hard to do with a demilitarized sovereign Palestinian state. How or when that will happen all seems quite far out.

 

I " downplayed" the status of their democracy because of the effects it has on  this conflict, for the reasons I gave in that post. 

 

I have condemned Hamas and all the acts of violence the Palestinian people have ever committed on the Palestinian people.

I have yet to see you condemn the extremist settlers who assualt and kill innocent Palestinians.

The Isreali soldiers who support them, and the extremist Isreali politicians who support them.

 

 

Again I don't believe the means justifies the ends for the reasons I have given many times. 

 

The fantasy land that floats my boat as you so quaintly put it, is that we treat each other with dignity and respect. 

That we are all human beings that share this planet together.

That every single human being deserves the right to raise their kids in a safe environment.

They have food on the table.

Access to a good education.

Hope for the future.

 

It sucks that the majority of people don't think like I do. 

If they did, we wouldn't continue to fight these pointless wars over pieces of land. 

 

I have already suggested a one state solution.

One world, one people.

Just think about the hundreds of millions of people that have been killed in the name of " nationalism " over the Millennia.

 

I will ask you a question I have already answered myself.

 

Would anything induce you to kill innocent women and children ? 

 

No ifs buts or maybes, a simple answer. 

 

As I have stated, I would risk my life to save them.

 

 

[Ilunga]

47 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

Yeah, fuck that racist asshole.   I think we can all agree there.

 

Edit, pardon my explicit language, I am incredibly upset by violent racists here in Canada. There is never an okay moment here for violence.

 

As you know, there is not much I hate, hate is such a wasted emotion.

 

I do really hate racism.

 

A person is a dickhead simply because they are a dickhead, not because of their race, creed or religion.

 

Conversely a person is a good person because they are a good person nothing to do with race, creed or religion.

 

In any given group of people you will find good to bad and everything in-between.

[Optimist Prime]

10 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

As you know, there is not much I hate, hate is such a wasted emotion.

 

I do really hate racism.

 

A person is a dickhead simply because they are a dickhead, not because of their race, creed or religion.

 

Conversely a person is a good person because they are a good person nothing to do with race, creed or religion.

 

In any given group of people you will find good to bad and everything in-between.

I still get a chuckle from Chris Rocks standup routine where he says he isn't afraid of Al Quieda, he is afraid of Al the Cracka.

 

That protest blocking the Canada/Italy tet et tet was beyond the scope of civil protest. I guarantee there will be arrests down the road, and likely a few yesterday, but the idiot with the nail gun is a dangerous offender with racial motivation. I suspect he will have more charges added in the coming days and maybe even have to post a peace bond as part of his journey through the criminal justice system. Possibly hate crime charges.

[StrayDog]

2 hours ago, Super19 said:

This thread criticizes the UN report.

 

I don't do X. Is there a link to the actual report? I'd rather see the whole document

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

I still get a chuckle from Chris Rocks standup routine where he says he isn't afraid of Al Quieda, he is afraid of Al the Cracka.

 

That protest blocking the Canada/Italy tet et tet was beyond the scope of civil protest. I guarantee there will be arrests down the road, and likely a few yesterday, but the idiot with the nail gun is a dangerous offender with racial motivation. I suspect he will have more charges added in the coming days and maybe even have to post a peace bond as part of his journey through the criminal justice system. Possibly hate crime charges.

What will be done with the guilty ones who aren’t Canadian citizens? Deportation? 

[Super19]

1 minute ago, Alflives said:

What will be done with the guilty ones who aren’t Canadian citizens? Deportation? 

"Send em back to where they came from!!!!"

 

What if they're from Palestine?

[Chicken.]

30 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

I " downplayed" the status of their democracy because of the effects it has on  this conflict, for the reasons I gave in that post. 

 

I have condemned Hamas and all the acts of violence the Palestinian people have ever committed on the Palestinian people.

I have yet to see you condemn the extremist settlers who assualt and kill innocent Palestinians.

The Isreali soldiers who support them, and the extremist Isreali politicians who support them.

 

 

Again I don't believe the means justifies the ends for the reasons I have given many times. 

 

The fantasy land that floats my boat as you so quaintly put it, is that we treat each other with dignity and respect. 

That we are all human beings that share this planet together.

That every single human being deserves the right to raise their kids in a safe environment.

They have food on the table.

Access to a good education.

Hope for the future.

 

It sucks that the majority of people don't think like I do. 

If they did, we wouldn't continue to fight these pointless wars over pieces of land. 

 

I have already suggested a one state solution.

One world, one people.

Just think about the hundreds of millions of people that have been killed in the name of " nationalism " over the Millennia.

 

I will ask you a question I have already answered myself.

 

Would anything induce you to kill innocent women and children ? 

 

No ifs buts or maybes, a simple answer. 

 

As I have stated, I would risk my life to save them.

 

 

You can refer to my original post you quoted where i called out the excessive land taking, hardline politicians, and I suppose I missed including settler violence in the blanket condemnation of Israel not being innocent in the big picture of this conflict. 

 

I don’t think singling out women and children as innocents makes killing any more awful, Killing an innocent man is wrong on as many levels as well. Lets just say innocent people shall we ?
If I had to kill an innocent person as a requirement to save a multitude of other innocent people I might. Hard to say how one might react if put in a precarious ethical situation. Would you risk your philosophical position of never killing one innocent person to save many others?

 

Suggesting unrealistic solutions is fine and dandy to toy with hypotheticals just not my cup of tea really. A utopia would be kinda nice to live in. ..

[Alflives]

Just now, Super19 said:

"Send em back to where they came from!!!!"

 

What if they're from Palestine?

Anyone who is committing acts of hate, need to be in prison (if Canadian) and sent packing if not. And that includes the nail gun guy. These protestors can make their voices heard without hateful acts. If they are so concerned about the fate of a foreign land that they cross the line from protest to hate crimes and violence then they should go to the war zone and fight. Shooting a nail gun at people or spitting on old folk is cowardly. Get the hell out of Canada! Don’t want evil, vile people here regardless of their political beliefs. 

[Super19]

7 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Anyone who is committing acts of hate, need to be in prison (if Canadian) and sent packing if not. And that includes the nail gun guy. These protestors can make their voices heard without hateful acts. If they are so concerned about the fate of a foreign land that they cross the line from protest to hate crimes and violence then they should go to the war zone and fight. Shooting a nail gun at people or spitting on old folk is cowardly. Get the hell out of Canada! Don’t want evil, vile people here regardless of their political beliefs. 

Agreed. 

 

I think you just missed the point I was jokingly trying to make that there's no Palestine to go back to despite a person's heritage/ancestors originating in that land.

[Ilunga]

2 minutes ago, Chicken. said:

You can refer to my original post you quoted where i called out the excessive land taking, hardline politicians, and I suppose I missed including settler violence in the blanket condemnation of Israel not being innocent in the big picture of this conflict. 

 

I don’t think singling out women and children as innocents makes killing any more awful, Killing an innocent man is wrong on as many levels as well. Lets just say innocent people shall we ?
If I had to kill an innocent person as a requirement to save a multitude of other innocent people I might. Hard to say how one might react if put in a precarious ethical situation. Would you risk your philosophical position of never killing one innocent person to save many others?

 

Suggesting unrealistic solutions is fine and dandy to toy with hypotheticals just not my cup of tea really. A utopia would be kinda nice to live in. ..

 

This is not the case in regards to Gaza.

Killing 20,000 women and children and basically destroying Gaza in response to the killing, raping and brutality that happened on October 7.

 

And maybe it's the way I was raised,but the killing women and children affects me more than the killing of men.

Especially children, they are totally innocent, have no choice of say in any of these events. 

 

And yes killing innocent men is wrong as well. 

 

And no I would not kill an innocent person to save, others.

As you can see from observing our world, there are plenty of people with guns, and other weapons for that matter, willing to do the job.

 

You know why, why my " hypothetical Utopia " doesn't exist ?

Because enough people don't believe in it. 

 

Just because you say they are unrealistic solutions doesn't mean they are. 

 

We are a stupid species that never learns from the lessons of the past in regards to human conflict.

 

That is evident to those of us who study history.

In my case for over half a century.

 

[testycal]

1 hour ago, Bob Long said:

 

It's a terrible incident, but why are you making it plural? 

Why label him a zionist...he could just be a ticked off Jew....there is a difference you know

[Elias Pettersson]

2 hours ago, Super19 said:

Zionists in Canada coming out with their nail guns now, yikes.

 

 

 

They literally arrested him and charged him.  What about the Palestinians?  Where are their arrests?

 

Also, how do you know he is a Zionist?  Did you ask him personally?

Edited March 5 by Elias Pettersson

[Chicken.]

35 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

This is not the case in regards to Gaza.

Killing 20,000 women and children and basically destroying Gaza in response to the killing, raping and brutality that happened on October 7.

 

And maybe it's the way I was raised,but the killing women and children affects me more than the killing of men.

Especially children, they are totally innocent, have no choice of say in any of these events. 

 

And yes killing innocent men is wrong as well. 

 

And no I would not kill an innocent person to save, others.

As you can see from observing our world, there are plenty of people with guns, and other weapons for that matter, willing to do the job.

 

You know why, why my " hypothetical Utopia " doesn't exist ?

Because enough people don't believe in it. 

 

Just because you say they are unrealistic solutions doesn't mean they are. 

 

We are a stupid species that never learns from the lessons of the past in regards to human conflict.

 

That is evident to those of us who study history.

In my case for over half a century.

 

We are a stupid species, thus these world wide kumbaya solutions are unrealistic you just said it lol 

 

Its too bad the world is filled with so much hate and religious fanatics. Thankfully we are blessed to live in a peaceful part of the world. 

[Ilunga]

Just now, Chicken. said:

We are a stupid species, thus these world wide kumbaya solutions are unrealistic you just said it lol 

 

Its too bad the world is filled with so much hate and religious fanatics. Thankfully we are blessed to live in a peaceful part of the world. 

 

They are made unrealistic by people who don't think like me then ? 

 

Like just about everybody else in this thread, apart from the usual suspects. 

 

And because I advocate for others to have what we take for granted, that makes me Utopian ?

 

And seriously I find nothing about this conflict, or any conflict to " lol " about. 

 

Do you think it's just religious fanatics that cause all the shit in the world.

Tell that to Xi Jinping, 

To Kim Jong Un

 

And while Putin panders to the Orthodox Russian people, do you actually believe he is religious ?

And the war in Ukraine is a religiously motivated war ?

 

As has been well documented, the Ukraine war is all about territory/land.

Just like most wars have been. 

 

Check the god thread for details on that subject. 

 

Anyway thanks for a polite, respectful dialogue.