Hamas attacking Israel

[eeeeeeeeergh]

18 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

 

Easily the most well thought out, nuanced thing I've read in this thread. 

Yep. I don’t agree with all of it, particularly the fact that he doesn’t see the Brit’s/Zionist settlers as colonizers, but overall this is a very good read for anyone who’s just discovering this conflict for the first time. 
 

this is the best quote of it all: 

 

"Hamas would absolutely execute the ACAB lefties cheering on horrific violence against Israelis if they lived in Gaza & U.S. right-wingers blindly cheering on Israeli subjugation of Palestinians would rebel twice as violently if Americans were subjected to similar occupation."

[Coconuts]

1 minute ago, eeeeeeeeergh said:

Yep. I don’t agree with all of it, particularly the fact that he doesn’t see the Brit’s/Zionist settlers as colonizers, but overall this is a very good read for anyone who’s just discovering this conflict for the first time. 
 

this is the best quote of it all: 

 

"Hamas would absolutely execute the ACAB lefties cheering on horrific violence against Israelis if they lived in Gaza & U.S. right-wingers blindly cheering on Israeli subjugation of Palestinians would rebel twice as violently if Americans were subjected to similar occupation."

 

Yeah, that was poignant. As you said, I wouldn't necessarily agree with all of it either, but it does make some excellent points. The following chunk really jumped out to me. At the end of the day Israel is in a position of power in regards to the Palestinian people, this conflict may come and go but the cycle will continue so long as said Palestinians are forced to live in the conditions they have been. 

 

Israel, supported by the US and likely many other countries, is in the driver's seat. It's all very nuanced but this truth cannot be argued imo. How things play out going forward is largely dependent on how Israel treats the Palestinians who are living in what has often been described as the world's largest open-air prison. If there is any chance of this cycle ever ending Israel will likely need to play a less oppressive role. 

 

You cannot keep two million people living in the conditions people in Gaza are living in and expect peace. You can't. And you shouldn’t. Their environment is antithetical to the human condition. Violent rebellion is guaranteed. Guaranteed. As sure as the sun rising. And the cycle of violence seems locked in to self-perpetuate, because both sides see a score to settle: 1) Israel has already responded with a vengeance, and they will continue to. Their desire for violence is not unlike Hamas’s — it’s just as much about blood for blood as any legitimate security measure. Israel will “have every right to respond with force." Toppling Hamas — a group, by the way, Israel erred in supporting — will now be the objective, and civilian death will be seen as necessary collateral damage. But Israel will also do a bunch of things they don't have a right to. They will flatten apartment buildings and kill civilians and children and many in the global community will probably cheer them on while they do it. They have already stopped the flow of water, electricity, and food to two million people, and killed dozens of civilians in their retaliatory bombings. We should never accept this, never lose sight that this horror is being inflicted on human beings. As the group B’Tselem said, “There is no justification for such crimes, whether they are committed as part of a struggle for freedom from oppression or cited as part of a war against terror.”

 

 

[Provost]

25 minutes ago, eeeeeeeeergh said:

Yep. I don’t agree with all of it, particularly the fact that he doesn’t see the Brit’s/Zionist settlers as colonizers, but overall this is a very good read for anyone who’s just discovering this conflict for the first time. 
 

this is the best quote of it all: 

 

"Hamas would absolutely execute the ACAB lefties cheering on horrific violence against Israelis if they lived in Gaza & U.S. right-wingers blindly cheering on Israeli subjugation of Palestinians would rebel twice as violently if Americans were subjected to similar occupation."

Ding, ding, ding…. We have a winner.

[eeeeeeeeergh]

11 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

 

Yeah, that was poignant. As you said, I wouldn't necessarily agree with all of it either, but it does make some excellent points. The following chunk really jumped out to me. At the end of the day Israel is in a position of power in regards to the Palestinian people, this conflict may come and go but the cycle will continue so long as said Palestinians are forced to live in the conditions they have been. 

 

Israel, supported by the US and likely many other countries, is in the driver's seat. It's all very nuanced but this truth cannot be argued imo. How things play out going forward is largely dependent on how Israel treats the Palestinians who are living in what has often been described as the world's largest open-air prison. If there is any chance of this cycle ever ending Israel will likely need to play a less oppressive role. 

 

You cannot keep two million people living in the conditions people in Gaza are living in and expect peace. You can't. And you shouldn’t. Their environment is antithetical to the human condition. Violent rebellion is guaranteed. Guaranteed. As sure as the sun rising. And the cycle of violence seems locked in to self-perpetuate, because both sides see a score to settle: 1) Israel has already responded with a vengeance, and they will continue to. Their desire for violence is not unlike Hamas’s — it’s just as much about blood for blood as any legitimate security measure. Israel will “have every right to respond with force." Toppling Hamas — a group, by the way, Israel erred in supporting — will now be the objective, and civilian death will be seen as necessary collateral damage. But Israel will also do a bunch of things they don't have a right to. They will flatten apartment buildings and kill civilians and children and many in the global community will probably cheer them on while they do it. They have already stopped the flow of water, electricity, and food to two million people, and killed dozens of civilians in their retaliatory bombings. We should never accept this, never lose sight that this horror is being inflicted on human beings. As the group B’Tselem said, “There is no justification for such crimes, whether they are committed as part of a struggle for freedom from oppression or cited as part of a war against terror.”

 

 

yep this is extremely poignant. 
 

Sadly I just don’t think most people have the desire to dig deep enough to put themselves in the shoes of oppressed people, so the circle of violence just continues.

 

Americans cheered on the invasions in Afghanistan and Iraq, the coalition of the willing was never truly held accountable for the millions of civilians who died as a consequence of those invasions. 
 

I think it’s rooted in tribalism - it’s human nature to want to pick a side, and stick by it. But it often results in the dehumanizations of other people just like us - who have mothers and fathers, children, celebrate their birthdays, who tell jokes, who smile and cry, feel pain and joy, all of that. 
 

my heart goes to the people murdered in israel by Hamas, and to the Palestinians getting massacred in gaza right now. I’m praying everyday that when this is over I’ll hear from my friends in Palestine and that they’re okay, but this time I don’t think they’re all going to make it. 

[King Heffy]

34 minutes ago, eeeeeeeeergh said:

Americans cheered on the invasions in Afghanistan and Iraq, the coalition of the willing was never truly held accountable for the millions of civilians who died as a consequence of those invasions.

There were also a ton of protests regarding the Iraq invasion though.  I've personally suggested in this thread that Bush should stand trial for war crimes.  Ultimately, everyone in this thread wants both sides to stop killing each other, regardless of who we think deserves most of the blame.

 

I think Afghanistan was more of a grey area, but that's for another thread as I don't want to derail this one.

[Elias Pettersson]

8 hours ago, Provost said:

This particular source is just the numbers since 2008 and excludes the current numbers.  You can go look and find other versions.  The wiki link you included is pretty random and thin and even notes it does not include “unnecessary deaths”.  In a hot topic like this, wiki entries that can be edited by random individuals is less than useless.

 

It notes that it excludes any deaths on the Palestinian side that weren’t verified by at least two independent sources (but includes unverified Israeli deaths that have been reported in media).  It recognizes that it undercounts due to the stringent verification.  It also excludes the deaths that result from lack of access to medicine like now when hospitals have been bombed and electricity, water, and medicine has been blockaded.  Those are indirect deaths.

 

Note the numbers of women and children is significant.

 

https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties

 

I am coming from a place where I was in some of the worst conflicts in recent history as a soldier from

the 80’s-2000’s.  I have a pretty good sense on how awful both sides of these things are, and how different things look on the ground compared with how our media has to pick a good guy and a bad guy to make it simple and easy for the public to understand. 
 

I suspect that if we asked everyone in this conversation who has ever had to pile up bodies of kids macheted to death just to clear a road after ethnic cleansing,  and knows what that looks and smells like.  I am probably the only one that has to raise their hand. You folks have the privilege to be able to intellectualize this through whatever filters and biases you have.

Thank you for your service my friend.  If you don’t mind me asking, where were you stationed? 
 

I didn’t know we had a veteran in here. Learn something new every day. 

[Sharpshooter]

28 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Thank you for your service my friend.  If you don’t mind me asking, where were you stationed? 
 

I didn’t know we had a veteran in here. Learn something new every day. 

We have another. @Optimist Prime

[Ryan Strome]

5 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

We have another. @Optimist Prime

If everybody is over from CDC, there is more than a few. 

[moosehead]

Iranian President Ebrahim Raisi and Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman held a phone call on Wednesday to discuss the Israel-Gaza conflict, state media in Tehran reported.

It marked the first known call between the leaders since China negotiated a deal between the two after seven years of hostility.

 

Raisi and Bin Salman discussed the "need to end war crimes against Palestine," Iranian state media reported.

The Saudi crown prince "affirmed that the kingdom is making all possible efforts in communicating with all international and regional parties to stop the ongoing escalation," Saudi state news agency SPA said.

SPA reported that the crown prince reiterated Saudi Arabia's rejection of targeting civilians in any way.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-67073970

[Canuck You]

GO DJ, That's my DJ! (Dakota)

[Provost]

1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Thank you for your service my friend.  If you don’t mind me asking, where were you stationed? 
 

I didn’t know we had a veteran in here. Learn something new every day. 

Germany, BC, Saskatchewan, Ontario.

 

I suspect there are a number of veterans on here.  It doesn’t reply come up often when discussing bad GMs.

[Chicken.]

Wrong thread lol

Edited October 12, 2023 by Chicken.

[Ilunga]

11 hours ago, Taxi said:

 

So Iran's role was limited to just giving Hamas all the money and weapons required to pull this off?

 

Yeah well maybe if America/ the CIA/ British hadn't backed a coup to depose the

democratically elected leader of Iran, and replaced him with the Shah who was so corrupt it allowed the fanatic clerics to take over, Iran might be a functioning democracy right now.

Not ruled by a bunch of religious fanatics.

Cause and effect.

 

The Iranian people have suffered the most from America's greed for Iranian oil back then, re the consortium agreement.

[CBH1926]

If and when Gaza ground invasion starts, word bloodbath won’t be enough to describe what will happen. With all the tunnels, suicide bombers, dense population and urban warfare, the casualties will be in tens of thousands. 

[Ryan Strome]

2 minutes ago, CBH1926 said:

If and when Gaza ground invasion starts, word bloodbath won’t be enough to describe what will happen. With all the tunnels, suicide bombers, dense population and urban warfare, the casualties will be in tens of thousands. 

What is Gaza like the size of Surrey? Going to be bad.

[Elias Pettersson]

6 minutes ago, CBH1926 said:

If and when Gaza ground invasion starts, word bloodbath won’t be enough to describe what will happen. With all the tunnels, suicide bombers, dense population and urban warfare, the casualties will be in tens of thousands. 

 

It seems like there will be a few days of bombs from the air.  Then the ground troops will come in.  Weaken the enemy as much as you can threw the air before you send in the troops…

 

3 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said:

What is Gaza like the size of Surrey? Going to be bad.

 

It’s a little bigger than Surrey.  Surrey’s population is around 520,000 people. The population of Gaza is over 2 million. 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Elias Pettersson

[CBH1926]

4 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said:

What is Gaza like the size of Surrey? Going to be bad.

 

4 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

It seems like there will be a few days of bombs from the air.  Then the ground troops will come in.  Weaken the enemy as much as you can threw the air before you send in the troops…

 

 

It’s a little bigger than Surrey.  Surrey’s population is around 520,000 people. The population of Gaza is over 2 million. 

No one knows for sure how many fighters Hamas has, it ranges from 10 to 40k. It’s a cult of death that celebrates dying in combat, most them are willing to die and take as many people as they can. It will be ghastly.

[Ryan Strome]

9 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

It seems like there will be a few days of bombs from the air.  Then the ground troops will come in.  Weaken the enemy as much as you can threw the air before you send in the troops…

 

 

It’s a little bigger than Surrey.  Surrey’s population is around 520,000 people. The population of Gaza is over 2 million. 

No I mean land size

[Elias Pettersson]

Just now, Ryan Strome said:

No I mean land size

 

Surrey is around 122 square miles. Gaza is around 175 square miles. 

[Ryan Strome]

Just now, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Surrey is around 122 square miles. Gaza is around 175 square miles. 

So quite small. Lots of people crowded in. Won't be good.

[CBH1926]

3 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said:

No I mean land size

Same size as Las Vegas, 365 square kilometers or 140 square miles.

[Ryan Strome]

15 minutes ago, CBH1926 said:

Same size as Las Vegas, 365 square kilometers or 140 square miles.

Ya be like Leningrad. Destroyed, no food, no water, no electricity, no fuel, no medicine. 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Ryan Strome

[CBH1926]

4 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said:

Ya be like Stalingrad. Destroyed, no food, no water, no electricity, no fuel, no medicine. 

Always remember reading stories about residents eating bread made out of sawdust during the siege. Not to mention cannibalism.
 

Soviets were all going to die because they had no choice, these Hamas fucks are looking forward to death. Plus to keep the hatred going, they will sacrifice as many ordinary Palestinians as they can. Absolute no regards for human lives.

[Ryan Strome]

4 minutes ago, CBH1926 said:

Always remember reading stories about residents eating bread made out of sawdust during the siege. Not to mention cannibalism.
 

Soviets were all going to die because they had no choice, these Hamas fucks are looking forward to death. Plus to keep the hatred going, they will sacrifice as many ordinary Palestinians as they can. Absolute no regards for human lives.

Ya good point, more like Leningrad.

[moosehead]

2 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Surrey is around 122 square miles. Gaza is around 175 square miles. 

 

Similar size.  I am just glad my surrey is free and people are not subjected to oppression and occupation

Edited October 12, 2023 by moosehead