Hamas attacking Israel

[RomanPer]

35 minutes ago, Odd. said:

Let’s just say Israel likes to pull pages out of Iran’s book.

 

https://balkaninsight.com/2016/12/08/israel-court-denies-request-for-bosnian-war-deals-data-12-07-2016/

 

So, let's say for a second, there was some involvement from Israel in the war in former Yugoslavia in the 90s (still far from proving full official involvement). What does any of it have to do with what we were talking about the events in the 60s and 70s and establishment of PLO and Arafat?

[CBH1926]

2 hours ago, Odd. said:

It certainly didn’t help that Israel helped fund the Bosnian Serbs in the Bosnian genocide.

I was reading that article that you posted, it had some interesting stuff that I have not seen before.

What I remember from the 90s is that some of the weapons from Israel ended up in the hands of Serbs.

 

Russia, Hungary, Argentina, Iran, Pakistan etc. were all breaking arms embargo by selling/giving their weapons.

Historically Jews and Israel have been more aligned with Serbs in comparison to Croats and Muslims.

[the destroyer of worlds]

Cars were marked.  IDF knew they were in the area.  Workers moved from one attacked car to another.  

 

Hamas is a vile organization.   

 

The IDF is vile as well.  

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/chef-jose-andres-says-israel-targeted-his-aid-workers-systematically-car-by-car-2024-04-03/

 

Chef Jose Andres says Israel targeted his aid workers 'systematically, car by car'

[Canuck Surfer]

10 hours ago, Odd. said:

It certainly didn’t help that Israel helped fund the Bosnian Serbs in the Bosnian genocide.

 

You reckon Orthodox slaughtering, raping and mutilation of Turkic Muslims was illicitly backed by Israel?

 

It was backed by well documented Russian links & the KGB.

 

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/can-europe-make-it/commander-strelkovs-bosnian-connection/

 

10 hours ago, Odd. said:

Let’s just say Israel likes to pull pages out of Iran’s book.

 

https://balkaninsight.com/2016/12/08/israel-court-denies-request-for-bosnian-war-deals-data-12-07-2016/

 

Selling arms? In return for the right to escape?  I don't know, that's not very convincing. It was a genocide by Slavic power figures. Germany may have been a worse place for Jewish people in WWII. Not much. Russia also had their crack ethnically cleansing many large non Orthodox cultures, including Jews. There is a reason most left!  

 

This is from your article;

 

One allegation included in Auron and Mack’s petition was an excerpt from a 2002 report by the Netherlands Institute for War Documentation saying that Israel was alleged to have supplied arms in exchange for Bosnian Serb forces allowing large parts of the Jewish community in Sarajevo to leave the city in 1992, the year the siege started.

[Canuck Surfer]

This is horrible right from the images of this female hostage being taken by ten Hamas males. It gets worse; although she survived...

 

 

[Taxi]

13 hours ago, the destroyer of worlds said:

Cars were marked.  IDF knew they were in the area.  Workers moved from one attacked car to another.  

 

Hamas is a vile organization.   

 

The IDF is vile as well.  

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/chef-jose-andres-says-israel-targeted-his-aid-workers-systematically-car-by-car-2024-04-03/

 

Chef Jose Andres says Israel targeted his aid workers 'systematically, car by car'

 

The strike happened at night. Hamas doesn't mark their vehicles or fighters. In fact, Hamas often marks them as aid workers or ambulances to disguise them. I think it was only a matter of time, given the huge amount of aid workers in the area, until a mistake was made.

 

Anyways, a very horrible mistake that the IDF is responsible for. I don't see any evidence it was intentional though. 

[Odd.]

9 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

You reckon Orthodox slaughtering, raping and mutilation of Turkic Muslims was illicitly backed by Israel?

 

It was backed by well documented Russian links & the KGB.

 

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/can-europe-make-it/commander-strelkovs-bosnian-connection/

 

 

Selling arms? In return for the right to escape?  I don't know, that's not very convincing. It was a genocide by Slavic power figures. Germany may have been a worse place for Jewish people in WWII. Not much. Russia also had their crack ethnically cleansing many large non Orthodox cultures, including Jews. There is a reason most left!  

 

This is from your article;

 

One allegation included in Auron and Mack’s petition was an excerpt from a 2002 report by the Netherlands Institute for War Documentation saying that Israel was alleged to have supplied arms in exchange for Bosnian Serb forces allowing large parts of the Jewish community in Sarajevo to leave the city in 1992, the year the siege started.

So funding a genocide of my peoples. Got it. Anything else you’d like to point out? I am very aware of Russia’s historical influence of this region.

[Warhippy]

20 minutes ago, Taxi said:

 

The strike happened at night. Hamas doesn't mark their vehicles or fighters. In fact, Hamas often marks them as aid workers or ambulances to disguise them. I think it was only a matter of time, given the huge amount of aid workers in the area, until a mistake was made.

 

Anyways, a very horrible mistake that the IDF is responsible for. I don't see any evidence it was intentional though. 

How many aid camps, aid workers innocent kids have been attacked, bombed or outright slaughtered "accidentally" even though their locations were clearly marked and identified and broadcast?

 

Just curious.

 

For reference though.  Over 200 is the answer for dead aid workers.  Kids...thousands.  Camps, almost a dozen.  Are they all horrible mistakes?

 

Attacking camps, innocent kids, aid workers and assisting or causing mass famine to justify a position is indefensible.

 

Edited April 4 by Warhippy

[the destroyer of worlds]

45 minutes ago, Taxi said:

 

The strike happened at night. Hamas doesn't mark their vehicles or fighters. In fact, Hamas often marks them as aid workers or ambulances to disguise them. I think it was only a matter of time, given the huge amount of aid workers in the area, until a mistake was made.

 

Anyways, a very horrible mistake that the IDF is responsible for. I don't see any evidence it was intentional though. 

I get this line of apologetics.

 

If the claim is that Hamas uses marked vehicles, that still doesn't give the IDF free reign to bomb marked vehicles.  It means that the IDF should have to go out of their way to absolutely verify which vehicles are legit targets.   This incident shows us that the IDF isn't really doing that.  In life and death  incompetence is not an excuse.  Yet, that is the ONY excuse that the IDF can use.  An excuse that really doesn't fly.  An excuse that proves that maybe they shouldn't be bombing anything.   

[Canuck Surfer]

37 minutes ago, Odd. said:

So funding a genocide of my peoples. Got it. Anything else you’d like to point out? I am very aware of Russia’s historical influence of this region.

 

I'm just gunna point out the need for a better connection?  Thats all.

 

I think Visegrad was disgusting. We have an employee Azur, child of a Mother who escaped. I also have pointed out that there are Muslim groups such as Kurds, not oddly supported by Israel, that are historically persecuted by other Muslims. Including by Turkey. Condensing of ethnic groups itself, perhaps for security, there is nothing wrong with?  Yet many do it to form power groups to push other groups out.   Maybe its why these tensions are rising again? Hope your not caught up in it. Nor suffering... 

 

Sarajevo was once one of the worlds great centers for cultural diversity. 

[Taxi]

47 minutes ago, the destroyer of worlds said:

I get this line of apologetics.

 

If the claim is that Hamas uses marked vehicles, that still doesn't give the IDF free reign to bomb marked vehicles.  It means that the IDF should have to go out of their way to absolutely verify which vehicles are legit targets.   This incident shows us that the IDF isn't really doing that.  In life and death  incompetence is not an excuse.  Yet, that is the ONY excuse that the IDF can use.  An excuse that really doesn't fly.  An excuse that proves that maybe they shouldn't be bombing anything.   

 

The IDF doesn't have free reign to bomb marked vehicles. It's a brutal war in a civilian centre, where the enemy purposely camouflages itself amongst civilians. It's only a matter of time until civilian and/or aid vehicles are struck in those circumstances. Hamas knows this, which is why they've gone so far out of their way to ensure that their military is hidden in, under, and amongst civilians, hospitals, and aid agencies. 

[The Arrogant Worms]

• ..CIA 'warns Iran will attack Israel within 48 hours' as revenge for consulate strike

   

  https://www.the-express.com/news/world-news/133437/cia-warning-iran-attack-israel-consulate

[Toni Zamboni]

is real peace in the middle east even possible?
imo, the sad reality is, no its never gonna be possible.
whatever they come up with will just be a short term band-aid solution that will eventually unravel.  
the history there is just to complicated.
 

[Taxi]

21 minutes ago, Toni Zamboni said:

is real peace in the middle east even possible?
imo, the sad reality is, no its never gonna be possible.
whatever they come up with will just be a short term band-aid solution that will eventually unravel.  
the history there is just to complicated.
 

It's 100% possible. Apparently, they were within a few days of having both recognized Israeli and Palestinian states in January of 2001 at the Taba Summit.

[Alflives]

3 hours ago, Taxi said:

 

The IDF doesn't have free rein to bomb marked vehicles. It's a brutal war in a civilian centre, where the enemy purposely camouflages itself amongst civilians. It's only a matter of time until civilian and/or aid vehicles are struck in those circumstances. Hamas knows this, which is why they've gone so far out of their way to ensure that their military is hidden in, under, and amongst civilians, hospitals, and aid agencies. 

Lo of this and add Hamas is cowardly. There is no honour in their actions. They did very terrible (cowardly) things October 7. They should surrender and then the war would be over and the people of Gaza could be safe. But they don’t care for the people who they supposedly represent. They are cowards. 

[Warhippy]

3 hours ago, The Arrogant Worms said:

• ..CIA 'warns Iran will attack Israel within 48 hours' as revenge for consulate strike

   

  https://www.the-express.com/news/world-news/133437/cia-warning-iran-attack-israel-consulate

Good.  Good.

 

Then Israel will flatten parts of Iranian forces and the US will chip in and completely erode their ability to cause problems

 

[Canuck Surfer]

6 hours ago, the destroyer of worlds said:

I get this line of apologetics.

 

If the claim is that Hamas uses marked vehicles, that still doesn't give the IDF free reign to bomb marked vehicles.  It means that the IDF should have to go out of their way to absolutely verify which vehicles are legit targets.   This incident shows us that the IDF isn't really doing that.  In life and death  incompetence is not an excuse.  Yet, that is the ONY excuse that the IDF can use.  An excuse that really doesn't fly.  An excuse that proves that maybe they shouldn't be bombing anything.   

 

While I retain the opinion armed thugs ruling Northern Mexico, South Sudan, Afghanistan, etc. Gaza! Are the critical baseline for such regional conflicts, almost everywhere.

 

I even agree with occupied territories, due to legitimate security concerns.  Raise the point that Jordan, Iran & Turkey all have occupied territories. Iran and Turkey larger than the West Bank in Syria & Iraq. They do not behave either, also doing crackdowns, bombing and missile raids as does Israel, the US. Claim the same instigating factors as justification. I certainly suggest that, not that any is good, Syrian & Iraqi, Iranian, Yemeni, Turkish minorities have experienced poor, worse & at almost routinely more devastating consequences. Consider that 350,000 civilians died in an 18 month stretch less than 10 years ago. Consider this low compared to Yemen, which is again low compared to Sudan? I suggest activities by Iran, S.A. ,Jordan, the Taliban have all had vastly more aggressive IMPERIALIST & territorial ambitions than Israel is accused of. Both historically in 1948 & in between through till modern day. That their minorities are not all better off than those in the West Bank, certainly not Gaza.

 

Consider that Israel has not sold off minority women as sex slaves, taken civilian hostages, children / elderly. Nor marched young handcuffed men to ravines and machine gunned, or gassed them to death.  OK, I take those statements back.  Even the larger nations mentioned are not as brutal as ISIS, Hamas. Many did experience their births as nation leaders there though; see Taliban. 

 

That there are terrorists has always, well before Oct 7, led to too indignant a view of life for occupied Palestinians by Israel. I expect better of Israel than the Taliban, or Iran's revolutionary guard. Rubber bullets are sufficient for most teenagers throwing rocks at tanks.  Marches, violent abuse by RW nationalists through East Jerusalem business districts & Mosque's, settler abuse are often under the guard of the IDF. Settlements themselves are Imperialistic. Guarding against missiles from occupied territories, reasonable restrictions to flush terror cells, which DO exist is fine.

 

Its hard to view the assassination of reporter Shireen Abu Akleh in 2022 as anything but shocking; indignant! Perhaps she was a mole, an actual Hamas member? She posed no inherent risk at that moment; could have been arrested, tried!  It just points to an apathy which is still well on the wrong side of justified security. Shireen is hardly the only example, but the poster for obvious abuse.

 

I suspect, heavily suspect, as much as Israel does not get enough credit for how little death there has been in this war?  Most may not agree with that / my opinion *spoiler*. Hundreds of thousands would be dead if they just came in and cleaned house. That when any are in a war zone, uninvited by Israel. Nonetheless & unfortunately, were at that moment between tactical results Israel wanted?  Aid workers would be indignantly viewed just as much in the way as kids throwing rocks. 

 

They have to be leaders, not indignant to ethical standard in all situations. Or do as they do, with El Shifa; provide evidence these aid workers were in fact transporting weapons? Hiding terrorists or something! In this circumstance, I don't believe that was the case. Its very poor on Israel this occured! 

 

Spoiler

I do believe there is substantially less death than a blitzkrieg attack.  I also don't support the attack even as it stands.  I supported a more intense blockade. I am more pacifist than those who would declare war in full opinion. 

 

Destruction & death is less than it could have been. Not less than what is possible IMO. 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

4 hours ago, Taxi said:

It's 100% possible. Apparently, they were within a few days of having both recognized Israeli and Palestinian states in January of 2001 at the Taba Summit.

 

From what I read; it was not Israel who rejected it.

 

Nor was the PA, still a political arm of the PLO, actually encrusted as legitimate leaders of Gaza & West Bank?  Hamas well on its path of militant interjection to Arafat. Would international and UN acknowledgement have allowed external intervention in support of the Palestinian Authority?  That sounds like an Oxymoron of a plan if I ever heard one.

 

It would have just in resulted official, versus unofficial as happened, civil war inside ''Palestine'' IMO. Hamas would still have attacked Israel, engaged Iran, Hexbollah. 

[Elias Pettersson]

The IDF isn’t doing anything differently than what the US Military Industrial Complex has been doing for the last 100 years. The US has supported Israel throughout this entire time period. 
 

Israel has never used a nuclear warhead, unlike the US. They have never invaded another sovereign country unprovoked, unlike the US. 
 

Israel has fought for its existence since day one. I don’t agree with the killing of all of these people including the children. But I also don’t agree with Hamas being allowed to rule Gaza which creates instability in the region. 
 

It’s easy to tell the IDF to drop their weapons and retreat back to Israel. But we all know what’s going to happen if they do that. Hamas will simply regroup and attack again. 
 

Maybe the US can figure out a solution to the problem since they never seem to have any issues involving themselves in a war with other countries. 

Edited April 5 by Elias Pettersson

[Taxi]

Predictably, it turns out the Gaza aid bombing was a lot more complicated than initially set out:

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68742572

 

 

Quote

 

The IDF sought to explain the context leading up to the fatal events of that evening.

The aid workers had been overseeing the distribution of food aid that had arrived on a ship from Cyprus and unloaded at a recently constructed jetty in the northern Gaza strip. Under coordination with the IDF, the World Central Kitchen team were transferring these supplies to a warehouse a few kilometres further south.

During this process, the IDF says their drone operators spotted a gunman riding on the roof of a large aid lorry that was being escorted by the WCK team. They played those of us at the briefing a somewhat blurry video - which has not been released to the public - showing a figure holding a gun, on top of the lorry. At one point the gun is fired, showing up clearly on the slowed-down black and white footage.

At this stage the military contacts World Central Kitchen but they are in turn unable to reach the team on the ground - where phone communication is patchy and aid agencies say they are prohibited by the IDF from using radios.

The drone footage also appears to confirm that at night, the stickers on the roof of the World Central Kitchen vehicles, with the charity's logo, are not visible to the drone operator.

 

 

 

So actual militant firing from the aid lorry. They attempt to communicate with WCK, but the phone lines are down. It's also nighttime and the markings on the vehicles can't be seen.

Edited April 5 by Taxi

[Taxi]

12 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

From what I read; it was not Israel who rejected it.

 

Nor was the PA, still a political arm of the PLO, actually encrusted as legitimate leaders of Gaza & West Bank?  Hamas well on its path of militant interjection to Arafat. Would international and UN acknowledgement have allowed external intervention in support of the Palestinian Authority?  That sounds like an Oxymoron of a plan if I ever heard one.

 

It would have just in resulted official, versus unofficial as happened, civil war inside ''Palestine'' IMO. Hamas would still have attacked Israel, engaged Iran, Hexbollah. 

 

The Taba summit was in 2001. The Gaza civil war didn't take place until 2007. Arafat still had total control at that point. He could have reached a comprehensive deal.

[Boudrias]

10 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

The IDF isn’t doing anything differently than what the US Military Industrial Complex has been doing for the last 100 years. The US has supported Israel throughout this entire time period. 
 

Israel has never used a nuclear warhead, unlike the US. They have never invaded another sovereign country unprovoked, unlike the US. 
 

Israel has fought for its existence since day one. I don’t agree with the killing of all of these people including the children. But I also don’t agree with Hamas being allowed to rule Gaza which creates instability in the region. 
 

It’s easy to tell the IDF to drop their weapons and retreat back to Israel. But we all know what’s going to happen if they do that. Hamas will simply regroup and attack again. 
 

Maybe the US can figure out a solution to the problem since they never seem to have any issues involving themselves in a war with other countries. 

IMHO the USA's involvement in foreign wars, on balance, has been on the side of good. That is another subject.

 

Foreign governments are free to pass judgement on Israel's conduct of the war in Gaza but it is all virtue signaling for political purposes. Lacks integrity. As you rightfully pointed out Israel has had to fight for its existence since 1948. Attacked by alliances of undemocratic and mostly vicious opponents. If all the foreign aid sent to the West Bank and Gaza had been used to rebuild an economy that would deliver opportunity for Palestinians the scapegoating of Israel for conditions in these areas would likely end. The layer of corruption that controls these societies benefit financially and maintain their control by maintaining the Jewish bogeyman. 

 

The IDF is faced with fighting a war against Hamas who use their own people as shields. How are they different than Nazi Germany who maintained their forces in German cities? The Allies bombed those cities into rubble and killed millions of German civilians in the process. During the war people did not rise up and demand that Bomber Command do anything different. 

 

Stop the virtue signaling and let the IDF do their job. If Hamas realizes they cannot win their global propaganda war then they will lay their arms down and the shooting will stop. Instead of telling Israel how to fight their war of survival the UN should be planning how to rebuild the West Bank and Gaza without the corruption and how to build economic industry that provides opportunity for all the unemployed who join Hamas.   

[Canuck Surfer]

On 4/6/2024 at 2:53 AM, Taxi said:

 

The Taba summit was in 2001. The Gaza civil war didn't take place until 2007. Arafat still had total control at that point. He could have reached a comprehensive deal.

 

I am aware of the time frame. Hamas was already engaged in terrorist attacks as protests against such a deal on behalf of Palestinians. In conflict for power with the PA. Arafat was not able to control this occurring. Was not an elected leader.  Ultimately lost this battle. 

 

Would making this deal have saved his position, peace held?  It would be nice to think so. But I don't believe it. A corrupt terrorist who gained power via militant control? That lost out to another gang of armed thugs, Hamas, who did so in the same way. Lebanon, in theory, has treaty with Israel. Hezbollah has as powerful an army as the Lebanese army. More so? That does not really look like peace either?

[Elias Pettersson]

The US should be deporting all of these people.  If they are citizens, then throw them in jail...

 

 

Edited April 8 by Elias Pettersson

[Boudrias]

5 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

The US should be deporting all of these people.  If they are citizens, then throw them in jail...

 

 

What people should realize is that this propaganda effort by Hamas has been planned for years just as their attack on Oct. 7th was. The success of this campaign in both the USA and Canada depends on the cowardness of our institutional and political leadership. It is a commentary on the intellectual laziness of citizens and those who attempt to take advantage for what ever reasons. The fact that Canadians have not taken to the street in defense of Jewish citizens is reprehensible. 

 

Canada and the USA should be extraditing non citizens who are active in this subversion, arresting members of international terrorist groups active here and charging those Canadians who utter race based threats or threaten violence. Our society is under attack and either we stand for our beliefs or we descend into anarchy.