Hamas attacking Israel

[Ilunga]

58 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

People can condemn what Israel are doing!  Without agreeing that Hamas taking civilian hostages, bringing machine guns to a rave or blowing up tourist buses pre Oct 7 are acceptable practices? Common practices...

 

That most of the regions autocracies are in fact corrupt, genocidal & apartheid driven on an even larger scale should be concerning to you. 

 

Both parties have to come to legal compliance with international law.

 

 

Is Hamas any different than ISIS K? Who wants to rule Afghanistan instead of the Taliban, parts of Pakistan; so they have control for their breed. Then machine gun civilians in Moscow, because Russia is sorta, kinda, maybe a key ally of the Taliban? Or somebody... Or something. 

 

Whataboutism ?

 

I have condemned Hamas.

 

I have condemned all the different forms of ISIS.

 

I have condemned Hezbollah.

 

I condemn the religious fruitcakes that control Iran. 

 

I was on Putin's case long before the past, let alone the current Ukraine conflict.

Don't say this often however a slow death  wouldn't bother me in regards to him.

 

I condemn any and all countries or organisations that don't abide by International Humanitarian Law. 

 

As is well known, I hate all forms of injustice.

Injustice in its different forms is the only thing I really hate. 

Hate being such a wasted emotion.

 

 

What has any of your reply to my post have to do with Israel being an ultra nationalist, fascist state ? 

 

I have provided evidence from Israeli sources that backs up the fact, that the political ideology in Israel is Fascist.

 

Again the definition of fascism, ultra nationalist, far right, authoritarian Ideology.

 

You don't agree with Einstein and his peers.

 

You don't agree with the facts in those articles, The Times of Isreal and Haaretz ? 

 

 

I will give you some whataboutism.

 

What about the hundreds of thousands of kids starving in Gaza.

The events of October 7, do not justify what is happening in Gaza right now. 

Nothing justifies starving hundreds of thousands of children. 

 

 

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

So what is the next step because Iran attacked Israel directly?

 

To me semantics, in the game of diplomacy, semantics matter. Last week Israel wiped out their embassy in Syria. This is, publically, the opposite of Oct 7. Following that logic; Iran had as much 'right' to respond as Israel did after Oct 7.  

 

Regardless; I have the same suggestion.  Restraint? 

 

Israel certainly argues Oct 7 was also Iran.   The 'intelligence' community argues its common knowledge.  Maybe, or is that propaganda?

 

Regardless again; I have the same suggestion. Restraint!

 

 

Ask the world court, perhaps just of public opinion, to judge Iran for its handling of Kurds, of freedom for women, for sponsoring terrorism. Terrorism in Israel. Or then you will reply again. Plead the connection to Hamas, Houthis. Plead why terrorist attacks, example Oct 7, are an ongoing threat.  Counter calls by the extreme right (in this case) in your own country to develop newly occupied territories in Gaza. Ask for help, if Hamas are terrorists, in managing a peaceful withdrawal that protects from the threat they posed. Then, if they attack again! Then again and again, and again as promised? World court can have nothing to say!  

 

If you kill 8, or 18 Palestinian for each Israeli citizen that dies? 

 

Court of opinion will remain against you.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

13 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

What about the hundreds of thousands of kids starving in Gaza.

 

Why is Hamas not responsible for 'their' people? They are quoted as saying this is the UN's responsibility. Hamas contributed to this starvation problem.

 

If Hamas wants peace; they have to police their own to act exactly that; peacefully. 

 

Yes Israel should stop. But this is not a one sided problem. 

[Ilunga]

11 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

Amazing how it becomes Israel's responsibility? The death of people in Gaza is the responsibility of Hamas and to an extent the Palestinian people who continue to tolerate Hamas's presence. The death faced by those in Gaza would end immediately if Hamas put their guns down. The IDF cannot be expected to conduct their operations trying to accommodate the expectations of an international PR campaign by Hamas/Iran and those that support them. To what extent does the international community, through the UN, hold responsibility? What international movement exists to move Gazans into the Sinai while the IDF does its necessary work? 

 

It is a neat trick of misdirection  to place the blame on what is happening on Israel. It was not Israel who started this conflict. It is not Israel who is conducting a propaganda campaign based on antisemitism. It is not Israel that fired over 300 missiles at their country. Israel will do what it has to and the world should support that effort.  

 

Amazing how you haven't refuted my claim that Isreal is a fascist state.

No it isn't, really you can't argue with facts.

 

 

No, Hamas murdered 1200 Isrealis.

 

Isreal in response has killed around 20,000 Palestinians, and caused the the conditions for starvation in Gaza now. 

Up until this point they have made it virtually impossible for other countries and aid organisations to deliver aid to Gaza.

 

Isreal has murdered aid workers.

 

Here is the beautiful Australian person Isreal murdered, who devoted her life to helping others

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-04-02/australian-aid-worker-dies-in-airstrike-in-central-gaza/103656546

 

Blah blah bullshit anti semitism.

I have provided you with a person with a track record of anti semitism.

Yair Netanyahu. 

 

Keep on victim blaming, innocent children who have done nothing to deserve what is happening to them now in Gaza.

 

And keep on supporting that fascist regime.

 

Isreal is becoming a pariah state.

Even people within Isreal are coming to this conclusion.

People who have been conservative and pro Isreali to the core until now.  

 

 

More Isreali sources

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/pro-israel-scholar-netanyahu-smotrich-ben-gvir-moving-headlong-to-making-israel-a-pariah-state/

 

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-03-21/ty-article/.premium/is-israel-becoming-a-pariah-state/0000018e-4d66-dfb8-adef-dd76d4820000

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

22 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

Israel being an ultra nationalist, fascist state ? 

 

Israel has ultra nationalists.  Yet it has a democratic process.  One where Arab citizens, can, and do get elected.  Then present in legislature their opposition to how the elected govt, a minority one, bends (they do) to a balance in power by your suggested extremists within.  Where an Arab judge sends a former head of state to jail.

 

There is no such opposition debate in Gaza.  You get dropped out of a 6th story window. There are no such things as Jewish judges in Gaza.  I suppose there has been?

 

Since Oct 7...

 

Israel, does need to be accountable to letting those ultra nationals run loose. But not by setting machine gun toting militants on a rave party.

 

Help Gazans, by also asking Hamas to live within the law!  

[Ilunga]

4 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Why is Hamas not responsible for 'their' people? They are quoted as saying this is the UN's responsibility. Hamas contributed to this starvation problem.

 

If Hamas wants peace; they have to police their own to act exactly that; peacefully. 

 

Yes Israel should stop. But this is not a one sided problem. 

 

Do Hamas control what aid comes into Gaza ?

No, the Isrealis do. 

 

And whats with the Hamas bullshit about looking after their own people, we both know they don't give a fuck about them. 

 

This does not give Isreal the right to stop aid getting to the Palestinian people. 

And that's what they have been doing up until now.

 

They fucking murdered aid workers, one of them a beautiful Aussie girl.

There are hundreds of thousands of kids starving.

I detailed what is happening to them in that article.

 

What sort of human being tries to find excuses for what we s happening to those kids. 

 

Makes me fuckin sick the lack of humanity in this thread.

 

[Ilunga]

3 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Israel has ultra nationalists.  Yet it has a democratic process.  One where Arab citizens, can, and do get elected.  Then present in legislature their opposition to how the elected govt, a minority one, bends (they do) to a balance in power by your suggested extremists within.  Where an Arab judge sends a former head of state to jail.

 

There is no such opposition debate in Gaza.  You get dropped out of a 6th story window. There are no such things as Jewish judges in Gaza.  I suppose there has been?

 

Since Oct 7...

 

Israel, does need to be accountable to letting those ultra nationals run loose. But not by setting machine gun toting militants on a rave party.

 

Help Gazans, by also asking Hamas to live within the law!  

 

Did you read my post, the Times of Isreal article, detailing the current state of the Isreali political system ?

If not, go back and read it.

It isn't democracy as we know it.

Members of the Knesset aren't elected they are chosen by Netanyahu and the cabinet ministers.

And as the article points out, loyalty to Netanyahu is the factor that defines a members selection. 

Their populist rhetoric, " the tyranny of the supreme court ".

 

How many examples do you need !

 

 

 

What the fuck do the Gazans have to do with the Isreali government and why bring up the October 7 attack in relation to them being a fascist state ? 

 

As for your claims about Arab judges and others claims about " everyone being equal in Isreal "

 

Read this article about the Nation State Law those right wing nut jobs  passed.

 

 

https://www.vox.com/world/2018/7/31/17623978/israel-jewish-nation-state-law-bill-explained-apartheid-netanyahu-democracy

 

As you can see, not everyone is equal.

" Palestinian Isrealis " are not treated equally in Isreal and this law has made it worse for them.

 

For fucks sake that article illustrates how ' Mizrachi " Jews have been marginalised by " Ashkenazi " Jews 

 

For the billionth time, I condemn Hamas.

 

What do they have to do with fascists running  Isreal.

 

Again the definition of fascism.

Ultra nationalist, far right, authoritarian regime.

 

Israel and it's current regime fit that description.

Isrealis themselves say this.

I have provided the evidence of this.

 

[Canuck Surfer]

27 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

And whats with the Hamas bullshit about looking after their own people, we both know they don't give a fuck about them. 

 

So how does Israel protect itself? When each blames the other as justification, the cycle is never broken.

 

Hamas apparently represents Palestinians. A healthy amount of Palestinians, plus for whatever reason, world opinion believes Hamas is justified in what they are doing, have done...  I say the same thing to world opinion.  If you want peace for Palestinians? Stop unlawful 'Palestinians' from placing your supported people under fire.

 

By the way; I did not say looking after, I said hold their own people accountable to behave lawfully.  Exactly like I expect Israel to reign in their idiots! 

[Canuck Surfer]

18 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

It isn't democracy as we know it.

 

Compared to democracy by Hamas?  Its closer.

 

No shining example of success I agree. Democracy might re-elect Trump?  Maybe democracy is not the answer. Or democracy itself needs better standards, controls. 

 

It does not mean armed gangs should win power because they are the most brutal. The Middle East is full of such regimes. Where would you rather you send a daughter. To get a college education, or married. Syria or Israel?  Yemen, Sudan..., Gaza? 

[Bob Long]

5 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

Here is a suggestion.

 

Abide by International Humanitarian Law. 

 

This applies to all people everywhere, not just that as part of the world. 

 

You do agree with International Humanitarian Law right ? 

 

This is what you and others in this thread are defending 

 

" Gaza is going hungry.

It's children could face a lifetime of harm "

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2024/gaza-food-famine-malnutrition-children-aid/

 

 " Gaza's children are going hungry. More than 25 have died of complications linked to malnutrition, according to the World Health Organisation. Hundreds of thousands more face starvation as Israel continues its siege. 

 

Doctors and nutrition experts say the children who survive the lack of nourishment - and the ongoing bombing, infectious diseases and psychological trauma - are further condemned to face a lifetime of health woes. 

Malnutrition will rob them of the ability to fully develop their brains and bodies. Many will be shorter and physically weaker as a result. 

 

" At the simplest level, if you have impaired nutrition and growth your brain stops growing ", said Zulfiqar Bhutta, a physician and the chair of Global child health at the Toronto hospital. 

 

In the short term even less sustenance will be available for the children of Gaza: This week and Israeli airstrike that killed seven aid workers led several assistance organisations to announce they would suspend operations. "

 

" The toll from of hunger on the human body is evident from adults to children. 

The younger the person the greater the impact. 

 

People get energy primarily by turning carbohydrates into glucose, which is processed by the liver and distributed throughout the body especially to the brain. 

 

After exhausting its glucose reservoir, the body starts getting energy from fat. 

 

But if the body is not getting sufficient sustenance, it then burns protein from muscles to get energy eventually becoming unable to deliver essential nutrients to vital organs and tissues. For children this happens more quickly because they have fewer resources and need more energy to grow. 

 

As a consequence muscles start shrinking and organs stop functioning properly, the body can't regulate temperature, skin goes pale and gums may start bleeding. The immune system loses its ability to repair wounds and fight infections such as those causing diarrhoea, which can create a vicious cycle that further deprives the body of nutrients.

 

The digestive system is one of the first to shut down, resulting in the decreased production and f stomach acid, chronic inflammation, shrinking of the stomach and loss of appetite. If food becomes available again it will have to be introduced slowly, ideally in a hospital setting. 

 

The heart shrinks decreasing blood flow, slows the heart rate and lowers blood pressure. Eventually the heart can fail.

 

Breathing slows and lung capacity wanes.

Eventually respiratory function can fail.

 

As the brain is deprived of energy and essential nutrients, apathy, exhaustion and irritability ensue. Children need more energy than adults to develop their brains, making them more vulnerable to a lack of nutrients, and hampering their ability to learn later in life. " 

 

 

 

This is what is happening to hundreds of thousands of children in Gaza.

 

There is no justification for this whatsoever. 

 

 

 

You are an idealist Dave. None of the major actors in this conflict share your views.

 

 

[Alflives]

22 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

You are an idealist Dave. None of the major actors in this conflict share your views.

 

 

I wonder what % of people would share the idealistic views? 85-90? More?

Likely the % is very high in wealthy countries where the citizens live (mostly) safe, fat, and comfortable lives. In places where people struggle it’s got to be a lot less.

[Bob Long]

15 minutes ago, Alflives said:

I wonder what % of people would share the idealistic views? 85-90? More?

Likely the % is very high in wealthy countries where the citizens live (mostly) safe, fat, and comfortable lives. In places where people struggle it’s got to be a lot less.

 

regular folks, most I would imagine. 

 

But none of the leaders of the major players in this hold Dave's views. He wants to blame me for it for some reason, but its just the reality of the area. It was never going to play out any other way.

 

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Ilunga]

8 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

So how does Israel protect itself? When each blames the other as justification, the cycle is never broken.

 

Hamas apparently represents Palestinians. A healthy amount of Palestinians, plus for whatever reason, world opinion believes Hamas is justified in what they are doing, have done...  I say the same thing to world opinion.  If you want peace for Palestinians? Stop unlawful 'Palestinians' from placing your supported people under fire.

 

By the way; I did not say looking after, I said hold their own people accountable to behave lawfully.  Exactly like I expect Israel to reign in their idiots! 

 

Again for the billionth time, violence does not justify violence in return, in regards to civilians, especially women and children.

 

What is upsetting me the most is that hundreds of thousands of kids are starving due to the actions of people who lack humanity on both sides of this conflict.

 

As I have detailed, this will have a lasting effect on these kids lives both psychically and psychologically.

 

Any one with a decent bone in their body knows Israel does not have the right to collectively punish an entire population for the crimes a small percentage of that population. 

 

Just like Mike stated, this whole situation can be summed up by his words

 

" And human rights and freedom are just words 

That have lost all their meaning " 

 

As your reigning in the idiots comment, look around the world, let's start with the US and move on from there, they are taking over.

 

 

 

As for people being held accountable, Hamas is a terror organisation, for the billionth and one time I condemn them.

 

What Isreal is doing in Gaza amounts to acts of terror committed on civilians, a large percentage of them children. 

They are also killing journalists and aid workers. 

 

3 quarters of the journalists killed in 2023 were killed in Gaza.

https://www.icij.org/inside-icij/2024/02/over-75-of-all-journalists-killed-in-2023-died-in-gaza-war-per-cpj/

 

I condemn the killing of civilians, the mass starvation, the killing of journalists and aid workers.

All these things are against humanitarian law.

 

As for Isreal defending itself, it is not under attack any more it's hasn't been for over 6 month's.

They are far from their stated objective.

So under the current status quo there is no end in sight for the suffering of these kids.

 

As I have pointed out, Israel is becoming a pariah state.

Even it's best friend the US has had enough of Isreals actions in Gaza in relation to allowing humanitarian aid into the enclave. 

 

Here is what the highest ranking Jewish American in the senate, Chuck Schumer has to say about Israel becoming a pariah state

 

https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/15/politics/schumer-israel-speech-analysis/index.html

 

 

 

Jewish voices themselves all around the world and inside Isreal itself are condemning its actions in Gaza. 

 

You want to support a fascist regime that's on you.

 

I am making my voice heard, I want people to know I denounce both Hamas and the Fascists that are ruling Isreal, and their actions in Gaza.

[Ilunga]

10 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Israel has ultra nationalists.  Yet it has a democratic process.  One where Arab citizens, can, and do get elected.  Then present in legislature their opposition to how the elected govt, a minority one, bends (they do) to a balance in power by your suggested extremists within.  Where an Arab judge sends a former head of state to jail.

 

There is no such opposition debate in Gaza.  You get dropped out of a 6th story window. There are no such things as Jewish judges in Gaza.  I suppose there has been?

 

Since Oct 7...

 

Israel, does need to be accountable to letting those ultra nationals run loose. But not by setting machine gun toting militants on a rave party.

 

Help Gazans, by also asking Hamas to live within the law!  

 

Whataboutism again.

 

I have dealt with Hamas. 

For the billionth and 2nd time I condemn them.

 

What do they have to do with the political system/ the fascists that are running Isreal ?

 

Again the definition of fascism, a ultra nationalist, far right political ideology that usually has an authoritarian leader. 

 

Are you denying that they are ultra nationalist ?

 

Are you denying that they are governed by people on the far right ?

 

I have provided evidence from Isreali sources that ultra nationalist far right  politicians  are the people who are making the " political " decisions in Isreal.

 

Those same articles detail how that to become a member of the governing party of Isreal, the Likud party that depends on your loyalty to Netanyahu.

Members of the Knesset are not elected by the people.

That's damn close to being an authoritarian figure.

And we all know how corrupt he is. 

 

Did you read the details of the Nation State Law that was passed in regards to its effects on Arab Isrealis ?

Jewish voices within Isreal have called that law a form of apartheid within Isreal itself.

 

As for Arab Israelis being treated equally in Isreal that's bullshit. 

 

Again Israeli sources 

 

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-02/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/systematic-witch-hunt-what-persecution-of-israeli-arabs-looks-like-amid-gaza-war/0000018b-90db-db7e-af9b-fbdb254e0000

 

 

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/editorial/2023-10-31/ty-article-opinion/end-the-persecution-of-israels-arab-citizens/0000018b-827e-d805-a98f-b6ffe9870000

 

 

 

First hand accounts of the persecution suffered by Arab Isrealis

 

https://www.npr.org/2023/11/21/1214341078/israeli-citizens-who-identify-as-arab-or-palestinian-struggle-with-israel-hamas-

 

Arab Isrealis make up 20 percent of the population yet have less than ten percent representation in the Knesset.

And remember Isreal does not have the check on power a second level of government - the senate provides.

 

To put that into perspective, here in Aus, first nations people make up 3.8 percent of our population yet that have 8 members of Parliament over 5 percent representation, and 3 members in the senate which is close to their percentage in regards to representation.

 

I hold Isreal to the same account that I 

hold Hamas. 

 

I hold all people to the same account. 

 

Treat each other with humanity, dignity and respect.

Especially when those around you don't.

 

I have actually put this into practice in my own life.

 

[Ilunga]

9 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

You are an idealist Dave. None of the major actors in this conflict share your views.

 

 

 

I know that " watching " hundreds of thousands of kids starving is breaking my heart.

 

I have stayed silent for a while.

My parents, and my heart, have taught me to speak out when I see injustice. 

 

I wish I could go and help the children in Gaza, I am giving money to aid groups, but I feel driven to actually help on the ground.

However even though I am not seeing him I have a child to support and I can't leave my job/ my farm. 

 

I have provided examples in this thread of people from both " sides " who have forgiven those who killed people they love.

One of those people, an Isreali, actually helps Palestinians after other Palestinians killed someone he loved.

 

I know from my own life experiences that you have to forgive those that hurt you.

Not so much for their sake but for your own.

It's the only way to move on and make a good life for yourself. 

 

It's these kind of people that give our species a chance, give us hope for a better future.

 

Again I condemn Hamas, they are, words fail me to describe what sort of people they are.

They are contributing, in a big time way, to the suffering of the Palestinian people, I don't deny that.

 

However Isreal has to take some responsibility as well.

We, as a species came up with International Humanitarian Law.

 

Reading what starvation actually does to children, how can that not break your heart ?

 

We have just had our first mass public killing since the Port Arthur massacre.

A man, who it seems had mental health problems, walked around a shopping centre, stabbed and killed 6 people, injuring 12 others. 

 

I listen to the radio while I am working and people are calling in saying that they don't feel safe anymore.

 

How do you think the people in Gaza feel ? 

 

I know the same can be applied to the people in Isreal after the October 7 attack.

 

We all condemn the evil, and I don't use that word lightly, people who committed those attrocities on October 7.

They do have to be held to account. 

 

However it is my belief that children should not have to pay the price, a price that will be paid for the rest of their lives, for the actions of those evil fucks and what they did on October 7.

 

" We don't inherit the world from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children "

 

What sort of " world " will the children of Gaza have.

 

[Bob Long]

34 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

I know that " watching " hundreds of thousands of kids starving is breaking my heart.

 

I have stayed silent for a while.

My parents, and my heart, have taught me to speak out when I see injustice. 

 

I wish I could go and help the children in Gaza, I am giving money to aid groups, but I feel driven to actually help on the ground.

However even though I am not seeing him I have a child to support and I can't leave my job/ my farm. 

 

I have provided examples in this thread of people from both " sides " who have forgiven those who killed people they love.

One of those people, an Isreali, actually helps Palestinians after other Palestinians killed someone he loved.

 

I know from my own life experiences that you have to forgive those that hurt you.

Not so much for their sake but for your own.

It's the only way to move on and make a good life for yourself. 

 

It's these kind of people that give our species a chance, give us hope for a better future.

 

Again I condemn Hamas, they are, words fail me to describe what sort of people they are.

They are contributing, in a big time way, to the suffering of the Palestinian people, I don't deny that.

 

However Isreal has to take some responsibility as well.

We, as a species came up with International Humanitarian Law.

 

Reading what starvation actually does to children, how can that not break your heart ?

 

We have just had our first mass public killing since the Port Arthur massacre.

A man, who it seems had mental health problems, walked around a shopping centre, stabbed and killed 6 people, injuring 12 others. 

 

I listen to the radio while I am working and people are calling in saying that they don't feel safe anymore.

 

How do you think the people in Gaza feel ? 

 

I know the same can be applied to the people in Isreal after the October 7 attack.

 

We all condemn the evil, and I don't use that word lightly, people who committed those attrocities on October 7.

They do have to be held to account. 

 

However it is my belief that children should not have to pay the price, a price that will be paid for the rest of their lives, for the actions of those evil fucks and what they did on October 7.

 

" We don't inherit the world from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children "

 

What sort of " world " will the children of Gaza have.

 

 

I know you really do feel these things very deeply, and I know thats the source of where your posts come from.

 

I just don't know how it could be any different. That doesn't mean I support it, or like it. I just see it as inevitable given the current leaders.

 

As I said above, nothing has really shifted in terms of ideology, leadership. etc.,to give me any hope for another outcome, other than the curious alignment of Jordan, the Saudi's, the US and Isreal to take down the Iranian drone attack. Maybe there's a sliver of hope there, in the sense that if those four can get together on one thing, maybe they can do it for other things like stopping kids from starving.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ilunga]

9 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

regular folks, most I would imagine. 

 

But none of the leaders of the major players in this hold Dave's views. He wants to blame me for it for some reason, but its just the reality of the area. It was never going to play out any other way.

 

 

I don't blame you for the actions of people in a different part of the world. 

 

You asked a question, I answered it.  

 

 

 

Another poster in this thread stated that no one complained when Bomber command bombed German cities, comparing Hamas, a stateless Terror organisation with roughly 25- maybe 30,000 fighters, to probably the most evil regime the world has seen, that conquered and occupied most of Europe and a few other parts of the world. 

 

Well he was wrong 

He should have read this book before he made his false claim.

 

https://politics.utoronto.ca/publication/fire-and-fury-the-allied-bombing-of-germany-1942-1945/

 

" An enlightening and utterly convincing re - examination of the of the allied aerial bombing campaign and of civilian German suffering during World War 11 - an essential addition to our understanding of world history. 

 

During the second world war allied air forces dropped nearly two million tons of bombs on Germany, destroying some 60 cities, killing more than half a million German citizens and leaving 80,000 pilots dead. MUCH OF THE BOMBING WAS CARRIED OUT AGAINST THE EXPRESS DEMANDS OF THE ALLIED MILITARY LEADERSHIP.

HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE DIED NEEDLESSLY.

 

Focusing on the crucial period between 1942 to 1945, and using a compelling narrative approach, Fire and Fury tells the story of the American and British Bombing through the eyes of those involved: military and civilian command in America, Britian and Germany, aircrew in the sky and civilians on the ground.

 

Acclaimed historian Randall Hansen shows that Commander in Chief of Bomber Command, Arthur Harris, WAS WEDDED TO AN OUTDATED STRATEGY WHOSE SUCCESS HAD NEVER BEEN PROVEN; HOW AREA BOMBING NOT ONLY FAILED TO WIN THE WAR, IT PROBABLY PROLONGED IT, and the US campaign which was was driven by a particularly  American fusion of optimism and morality, played an important and largely unrecognised role in delivering allied victory. "

 

Punishing civilians for the actions of the militant members of their societies is not only morally wrong, it's counter productive to actually bringing an end to conflicts.

 

It's not a matter of blaming members in this thread for actions half a world away, it their reactions to those events, and what that tells me about our collective humanity.

 

One member posted something about how he hopes things get better in Isreal so that kids can go play some games there. 

This was a well liked post.

While at the same time hundreds of thousands of kids are starving a few miles away.

 

What does that tell you about the priorities of people on this Board. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I hope those kids can play their games in a safe environment, however I would prefer that the starving children in Gaza were our community, CFF, first priority.

[Bob Long]

Just now, Ilunga said:

 

One member posted something about how he hopes things get better in Isreal so that kids can go play some games there. 

This was a well liked post.

While at the same time hundreds of thousands of kids are starving a few miles away.

 

What does that tell you about the priorities of people on this Board. 

 

 

nothing. We aren't required to comment on every post. Not every like of a post is in opposition to something else, its just a like of that one comment. 

 

[Ilunga]

11 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

I know you really do feel these things very deeply, and I know thats the source of where your posts come from.

 

I just don't know how it could be any different. That doesn't mean I support it, or like it. I just see it as inevitable given the current leaders.

 

As I said above, nothing has really shifted in terms of ideology, leadership. etc.,to give me any hope for another outcome, other than the curious alignment of Jordan, the Saudi's, the US and Isreal to take down the Iranian drone attack. Maybe there's a sliver of hope there, in the sense that if those four can get together on one thing, maybe they can do it for other things like stopping kids from starving.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's a reasonable post brother. 

Big time respect from me, for not blaming it all on Hamas, and more importantly for voicing your humanity. 

 

It may be cheesy to some, but I will always believe that all 8 billion of us human beings are linked together, that we share a common goal, we want the same things.

 

Well the majority of us anyway.

 

[Ilunga]

9 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

nothing. We aren't required to comment on every post. Not every like of a post is in opposition to something else, its just a like of that one comment. 

 

 

Fair enough.

 

I found that post " tone deaf " in regards to what is happening virtually next door. 

 

[Bob Long]

7 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Fair enough.

 

I found that post " tone deaf " in regards to what is happening virtually next door. 

 

 

It's such a tragedy that I think people look for things to be hopeful about. 

[Ilunga]

6 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

It's such a tragedy that I think people look for things to be hopeful about. 

 

That's the thing, how many generations of Palestinian kids haven't had hope for a good future.

 

And I know that some Palestinian themselves are responsible for this, but not the kids. 

 

We both know that there hasn't been a genuine attempt for a peaceful solution from both sides since Rabbin was assassinated.

 

Check out where Netanyahu and Ben Gvir where a few weeks before the assassination and the threats that were made against his life at that rally that they attended. 

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/04/opinion/incitement-movie.html

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

3 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

Whataboutism again.

 

I have dealt with Hamas. 

For the billionth and 2nd time I condemn them.

 

What do they have to do with the political system/ the fascists that are running Isreal ?

 

Again the definition of fascism, a ultra nationalist, far right political ideology that usually has an authoritarian leader. 

 

Are you denying that they are ultra nationalist ?

 

Are you denying that they are governed by people on the far right ?

 

I have provided evidence from Isreali sources that ultra nationalist far right  politicians  are the people who are making the " political " decisions in Isreal.

 

Those same articles detail how that to become a member of the governing party of Isreal, the Likud party that depends on your loyalty to Netanyahu.

Members of the Knesset are not elected by the people.

That's damn close to being an authoritarian figure.

And we all know how corrupt he is. 

 

Did you read the details of the Nation State Law that was passed in regards to its effects on Arab Isrealis ?

Jewish voices within Isreal have called that law a form of apartheid within Isreal itself.

 

As for Arab Israelis being treated equally in Isreal that's bullshit. 

 

Again Israeli sources 

 

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-02/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/systematic-witch-hunt-what-persecution-of-israeli-arabs-looks-like-amid-gaza-war/0000018b-90db-db7e-af9b-fbdb254e0000

 

 

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/editorial/2023-10-31/ty-article-opinion/end-the-persecution-of-israels-arab-citizens/0000018b-827e-d805-a98f-b6ffe9870000

 

 

 

First hand accounts of the persecution suffered by Arab Isrealis

 

https://www.npr.org/2023/11/21/1214341078/israeli-citizens-who-identify-as-arab-or-palestinian-struggle-with-israel-hamas-

 

Arab Isrealis make up 20 percent of the population yet have less than ten percent representation in the Knesset.

And remember Isreal does not have the check on power a second level of government - the senate provides.

 

To put that into perspective, here in Aus, first nations people make up 3.8 percent of our population yet that have 8 members of Parliament over 5 percent representation, and 3 members in the senate which is close to their percentage in regards to representation.

 

I hold Isreal to the same account that I 

hold Hamas. 

 

I hold all people to the same account. 

 

Treat each other with humanity, dignity and respect.

Especially when those around you don't.

 

I have actually put this into practice in my own life.

 

 

I suppose we should credit Hamas for killing and disposing of, deposing of Jews, Christians, Kurds, Orthodox, etc.  Same for Asaad, Khomeini, Gaddafi, etc. Even Mormons won't want to visit?   I also covered, in great detail the combination of criminal activities, and RW (Fascist?) content in Israel.  Its a definite problem.

 

An Arabic decent person might have more rights in Israel, than they do in Gaza.  Certainly to protest. 

 

As for those minorities in Gaza? Zero % of zero population is 100 % isn't it? Solves the representation issue / doesn't it...

 

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

1 minute ago, Canuck Surfer said:

I have provided evidence from Isreali sources that ultra nationalist far right  politicians  are the people who are making the " political " decisions in Isreal.

 

They do hold a balance of power in the current minority govt.  Leverage it to the max. Mentioned this myself , more than twice...