Hamas attacking Israel

[Bob Long]

Just now, Ilunga said:

 

Whatabout ?

 

I hold all countries, and all people to the same account I hold myself, treat others, the way I want to be treated. 

 

What has the extermination of Jewish people have to do with their ultra nationalism ? 

 

Not interested in those that support Hamas'.

I do not. 

 

Still as I have mentioned, in that Four Corners report, an ex head of the Shin Bet was asked what we he do if he was a Palestinian, he replied, he would fight, when asked how " dirty " he would fight, he replied, I would do what it takes.

This is in regards to Palestinian Freedom, Statehood.

I posted the episode.

 

 

 

So you are saying that we should have kept the white Australia policy to keep the Australian identity as white Caucasian ?

Should we kick out the 100,000 Jews here in Aus ?

They don't solely identify as Australians.

 

What is a Canadian Identity ?

 

Don't you get that this racial " identity" is bullshit.

 

What do you think of the Nazis Aryan  " identity"

How is this different from a distinct Jewish identity ?

 

They are both distinct racial identities.

They are both ultra nationalist Ideologies.

 

I know you don't like religion.

This " Jewish " identity is a religious based idea.

It is based on the belief that a god chose them. 

Roman used a mythical religious text to justify Isreali/Jewish ownership of Jerusalem.

That a God gave them the land of Israel, according to said mythological religious text.

 

What are your thoughts on this ? 

 

Again whatabout.

 

I have criticised Saudi Arabia.

Screw Mohammad bin chainsaw and his fucked up society where women are second class citizens.

 

I have pointed out if it wasn't for western meddling back in the 50's, Iran could have been a very different place under their democratically elected government. 

However screw those nut job religious dudes that run that country.

 

Other places such as Qatar and UAE are probably not as free as Isreal.

So what ? 

They aren't killing thousands of Isrealis and starving hundreds of thousands more.

 

That doesn't change the fact that Israel is an ultra nationalist state run by far right nutjobs at this time.

 

That is what Fascism is.

I know you don't support fascism.

 

 

no, not whataboutism, context.  Context is real and important. You're using it to demonstrate, correctly, that places like Australia and Canada are at least trying to be better in the context of the entire globe. Did we get there day 1?

 

People, places and policy don't just appear out of thin air. Jews legitimately needed a safe place in the world and they created it. Was it perfect, nope. 

 

I don't expect Israel to be anything other than what it is at the moment, it really has not been that long since WW2 and the generational trauma of that. I also see that there is democracy there, and I do see strong support for a 2 state solution at some point. 

 

I also see other ME countries coming to their senses. I don't like the Saudi royal family, but just prior to the Hamas attack they were working on a new deal with Israel, moving more towards the kind of world you want to see. 

 

I don't see in your comments any sense of the time it takes to get to where Canada and Australia are. Israel is far far close to what we are, than what Iran and Hamas are, or really can ever be given how those two entities are formed. 

 

[Ilunga]

1 minute ago, Bob Long said:

 

no, not whataboutism, context.  Context is real and important. You're using it to demonstrate, correctly, that places like Australia and Canada are at least trying to be better in the context of the entire globe. Did we get there day 1?

 

People, places and policy don't just appear out of thin air. Jews legitimately needed a safe place in the world and they created it. Was it perfect, nope. 

 

I don't expect Israel to be anything other than what it is at the moment, it really has not been that long since WW2 and the generational trauma of that. I also see that there is democracy there, and I do see strong support for a 2 state solution at some point. 

 

I also see other ME countries coming to their senses. I don't like the Saudi royal family, but just prior to the Hamas attack they were working on a new deal with Israel, moving more towards the kind of world you want to see. 

 

I don't see in your comments any sense of the time it takes to get to where Canada and Australia are. Israel is far far close to what we are, than what Iran and Hamas are, or really can ever be given how those two entities are formed. 

 

 

7.5 million Jews have a safe place in America.

Almost as many as there are in Israel.

 

100,000 Jews have a safe place here in Australia.

 

Over 335,000 Jews have a safe place in Canada. 

 

271,000 Jews have a home in England and Wales.

 

ETC....ETC 

 

Why should we hold China to account ?

 

Why should they be any different from what they are now ?

 

Why should any country not be held to the same standards we hold ourselves to ?

 

Please provide me with evidence of anyone with the power in Israel, that wants to do anything about implementing a two state solution.

 

I have provided plenty of evidence that for the better part of the last 20 years, Netanyahus administrations have been directly working against a two state solution.

This is common knowledge.

This is why he built up Hamas' in the first place.

 

You realise that Isreal has gone backwards since it was created, democratically wise.

Especially in the last 20 years.

The fundamentalists have taken over from the more liberal minded Isrealis that helped create the state of Israel, and used to run the country.

Like they have a convicted terrorist in their government ffs. 

There are more religious nut jobs than ever in the Knesset.

There is even less seperation of church and state than there has ever been. 

 

Again whose fault is it that the mullahs are in charge in Iran.

The British and Americans that's who. They helped overthrow a democratically elected government. 

 

Again screw Hamas'.

 

And screw the Bin Salman's, all of them.

They are despots. 

 

Anyway, thanks for the polite, respectful discussion.

I respect your ideas and views.

[RomanPer]

11 hours ago, Inkidu said:

He's been accused of all these things to his face. His refutations are invariably brilliant and on-topic, the latter being something a good editor could help you with. 

I'm not going to defend him, he can do it himself. I just posted here to recommend to at least watch some videos of his debates on the subject of this thread. Lots of pithy wisdom there. 

 

 

But he “researched” him, aka looked up some sources on the internet with questionable reliability and made it into facts. This is David at his best and that’s the reason I have zero interest in engaging in any meaningful discussions with him. All you get is a dissertation of whatever he perceives as “truth” and “facts”.

[Ilunga]

4 hours ago, RomanPer said:

But he “researched” him, aka looked up some sources on the internet with questionable reliability and made it into facts. This is David at his best and that’s the reason I have zero interest in engaging in any meaningful discussions with him. All you get is a dissertation of whatever he perceives as “truth” and “facts”.

 

Sources with questionable reliability ?

 

I quoted his own words.

 

His own words condemn him as an Islamaphobe, and for being Xenophobic. 

 

Unlike you Roman, I provide links to evidence to back up my claims.

Most of the time you provide us with your opinions. 

 

Just finished watching a movie about some real Jewish heroes, the Bielski Brothers.

They were instrumental in saving over 1,200 Jewish lives during WW2. 

 

Here is an interview with Aron and his wife 

 

https://www.jns.org/a-conversation-with-aron-bielski-last-of-the-bielski-brothers/

 

Henryka Bielski 

 

" We should love each other. Doesn't matter what is your skin colour, what is your religion. You should always be nice to each other. We're all sharing the same Earth, same sun and same moon. We're sharing everything. Love everybody, be nice to everybody "

 

Aron Bielski

 

" People should be nice to each other, to help each other, whoever needs help. Be good to your family and people. If you see a person needs help, help him or her. Because the good lord will know about it. "

 

I can guarantee you, any research you do, will provide you with evidence that these values aren't what David Murray preaches.

 

Quite the opposite is some circumstances.

 

The name of the Movie is Defiance.

I highly recommend it to all.

Edited April 21 by Ilunga

[JIAHN]

@Ilunga

 

Brother

 

Just a quick note or 2.

 

#1

I disagree that Israel is getting off scott free, either domestically, or internationally.......there is plenty of criticism being thrown at Israel, and far more thrown towards their leader , Benjamin Netanyahu

 

#2 

You are missing the point. I get your outrage, and it is justified, but war, prejudices, world dominance, slavery, rape, genocide, is and was, done in all corners of the earth, for millennia, for ever, and will continue to happen. It can not be shocking, that when one kid throws a rock, the next kid throws a bigger one. By the time, all the rocks are thrown, no one can remembers who threw the first rock, and both say the other kid did it!

 

Hatred is disguised in many colors, and painted in many forms. It is born for many reasons, and passed on generation to generation, with the young child not even knowing why he hates...........It is, and this is very important you understand, a human condition.

 

I wish we were a better species, but we have proven we are not. Genocide, has been occurring, since time began, it is in the bible, and other religious text.......it is every where. It is disgusting, but inevitable. This will not be the last war, where this will occur.

 

I am sorry!

[Ilunga]

5 minutes ago, JIAHN said:

@Ilunga

 

Brother

 

Just a quick note or 2.

 

#1

I disagree that Israel is getting off scott free, either domestically, or internationally.......there is plenty of criticism being thrown at Israel, and far more thrown towards their leader , Benjamin Netanyahu

 

#2 

You are missing the point. I get your outrage, and it is justified, but war, prejudices, world dominance, slavery, rape, genocide, is and was, done in all corners of the earth, for millennia, for ever, and will continue to happen. It can not be shocking, that when one kid throws a rock, the next kid throws a bigger one. By the time, all the rocks are thrown, no one can remembers who threw the first rock, and both say the other kid did it!

 

Hatred is disguised in many colors, and painted in many forms. It is born for many reasons, and passed on generation to generation, with the young child not even knowing why he hates...........It is, and this is very important you understand, a human condition.

 

I wish we were a better species, but we have proven we are not. Genocide, has been occurring, since time began, it is in the bible, and other religious text.......it is every where. It is disgusting, but inevitable. This will not be the last war, where this will occur.

 

I am sorry!

 

What I meant is for the main part, they get a free pass in this thread. 

I am reasonably certain that some posters don't want the grief that is associated with posting in support of human rights in this thread.

I gave up for a while.

It is only the plight of the children that has driven me back to posting.

To not only be confronted by the same old justifications for Isreals actions in Gaza, but also people posting in support of bigoted, Xenophobic people.

 

 

I don't watch the news regularly, I am already struggling with my mental health.

However when I do, the footage coming out of Gaza is heartbreaking in regards to seeing the suffering of the kids. 

 

I understand the human condition well.

I have studied history for over 50 years. 

 

After WW2, we as a species, had apparently evolved in regards to a rules based order, and the formation of International Humanitarian Law, which was based in part on the horrific events in WW2. 

 

I used to tell mum she had seen the best of times after WW2, through to the 90's.

Life expectancy went up.

Nations like ours starting spending our money(taxes), on the healthcare of our citizens.

I will always remember seeing an interview with one of the founders of the NHS in Britian, and how he stated that he believed that if they could spend billions during the war killing people, surely they could spend a bit on the healthcare of British citizens.

 

After years of life expectancy going up around the world, between 2019 - 2021 life expectancy fell by 1.6 years. From 73.3 to 71.7.

As I have stated before what is the most precious thing we have apart from the people we love... time.

1.6 years may not seem like much time however every second we live is precious. 

 

We are going backwards in many parts of the world.

Far right authoritarian leaders are popping up everywhere. 

Even where they are not in charge, right wing fringe elements aren't as fringe as they once were.

 

Like there is a chance that the biggest idiot of them all will be elected to be the " head " of the worlds largest economy, and the most powerful military force on this planet.

And we all know the consequences if that happens.  

 

And you have nothing to be sorry about my friend.

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

21 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

 

Of course he has been accused of all these things to his face, because they are true.

 

And of course he is going to deny them.

 

So do you believe in the Great Replacement conspiracy theory ?

 

Do you believe in the Eurabia conspiracy theory.

 

He has been known to promote those theories.

 

This is seriously fucked up shit.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/08/a-deadly-ideology-how-the-great-replacement-theory-went-mainstream

 

You sound like a conspiracy theorist.

 

 

And if you are going to defend the killing of thousands of women and children, and the starvation of hundreds of thousands more.

 

You lack any sort of moral insight.

 

 

 

Here is the thing?

 

Murray is as smart as they come; his opinions highly credible and well investigated.  His views are just one sided. Its not like a Hamas driven conversation has a better moral ground to stand on. Start a conversation with?

 

There is a risk he points out.  We are willing to accept immigration as well as outkasts from the Islamic world in the West. They are not up to putting up with us as a Western World? Enough coming to the West prefer their ideology. A tipping point is inevitable?

 

Everywhere you look in the ME there are regimes as, more, egregious as Israel. On scale, make Gaza look peaceful even where Israel is admittedly brutal. The one that has the most ties to the West, Israel, is assasinated in a vote of popular opinion.  Because the Islamic world votes as one in global ideology. Is happy to let their own crimes go happily into that good night...    

 

[Canuck Surfer]

Murrays equivalent in Canada.  Is this hate? Or a fair question...

 

 

Yet there are legitimate refugee's around the world; is it not part our DNA to embrace those of need?

 

 

[Bob Long]

22 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

7.5 million Jews have a safe place in America.

Almost as many as there are in Israel.

 

100,000 Jews have a safe place here in Australia.

 

Over 335,000 Jews have a safe place in Canada. 

 

271,000 Jews have a home in England and Wales.

 

ETC....ETC 

 

Why should we hold China to account ?

 

Why should they be any different from what they are now ?

 

Why should any country not be held to the same standards we hold ourselves to ?

 

Please provide me with evidence of anyone with the power in Israel, that wants to do anything about implementing a two state solution.

 

I have provided plenty of evidence that for the better part of the last 20 years, Netanyahus administrations have been directly working against a two state solution.

This is common knowledge.

This is why he built up Hamas' in the first place.

 

You realise that Isreal has gone backwards since it was created, democratically wise.

Especially in the last 20 years.

The fundamentalists have taken over from the more liberal minded Isrealis that helped create the state of Israel, and used to run the country.

Like they have a convicted terrorist in their government ffs. 

There are more religious nut jobs than ever in the Knesset.

There is even less seperation of church and state than there has ever been. 

 

Again whose fault is it that the mullahs are in charge in Iran.

The British and Americans that's who. They helped overthrow a democratically elected government. 

 

Again screw Hamas'.

 

And screw the Bin Salman's, all of them.

They are despots. 

 

Anyway, thanks for the polite, respectful discussion.

I respect your ideas and views.

 

I guess what jumps to mind is, when you always have to rely on another country for your safety, are you really in control of your own safety? We don't tell others to go find someone else safe do we? 

 

I don't like bibi either but at least he can be voted out.

[Bob Long]

1 hour ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Murrays equivalent in Canada.  Is this hate? Or a fair question...

 

 

Yet there are legitimate refugee's around the world; is it not part our DNA to embrace those of need?

 

 

 

 

it is fair to ask who's behind the protests in Canada. To me its pretty clear there's a big influence from Iran but I don't know anything about the people leading the protests, the answer probably lies there. 

 

I could hear the one in downtown Vancouver yesterday, with chants of "free free free Palestine." What I wondered was, free it to what? Is there a democracy attached to this idea, or is it another fundamentalist state that will crush the rights of women and any other group fundamentalists don't like? I personally need to know the answer to that before I can support what "free Palestine" really means.

 

 

 

 

[Inkidu]

17 hours ago, RomanPer said:

But he “researched” him, aka looked up some sources on the internet with questionable reliability and made it into facts. This is David at his best and that’s the reason I have zero interest in engaging in any meaningful discussions with him. All you get is a dissertation of whatever he perceives as “truth” and “facts”.

Well then I'm glad I got it over with quickly.

Moving on, and maybe related, I found this great assesment of the "progress" of antisemitism. The funny part in this video is when she throws in an iirc in the midst of almost Chomskylike recall in this survey of the modern history of antisemitism.

If being reminded that 6 of 9 million Jews were annihilated in the Holocaust doesn't give pause, the detailed facts she provides probably won't mean anything. 

 

Edited April 21 by Inkidu

[Gurn]

I see page 420 of this thread is not any more mellow, than any other.

[Alflives]

12 minutes ago, Gurn said:

I see page 420 of this thread is not any more mellow, than any other.

Yup. We are a sad species. Star Trek half black v half white episode was far too accurate. We look for differences instead of commonality. 

Edited April 21 by Alflives

[Bob Long]

19 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Yup. We are a sad species. Star Trek half black v half white episode was far too accurate. We look for differences instead of commonality. 

 

we'll always have to protect ourselves against the few that would lead us into the kinds of situations Putin or Hezbollah like to place us in. Sad fact of what we are imo. 

[Elias Pettersson]

 

[Sabrefan1]

The very liberal Columbia University is quite the sh*tshow right now.  Abusing Jewish students, spewing hateful one-sided rhetoric, etc.  Instead of taking control of their campus, Columbia has now put cameras in the classroom and are telling the Jewish students that they can just login to their classes online.  That's just what those student's wanted for their 70k per year tuition.  An Ivy League online degree.

 

Biden even put out a statement earlier today condemning what's going on there.

[Bob Long]

2 minutes ago, Sabrefan1 said:

The very liberal Columbia University is quite the sh*tshow right now.  Abusing Jewish students, spewing hateful one-sided rhetoric, etc.  Instead of taking control of their campus, Columbia has now put cameras in the classroom and are telling the Jewish students that they can just login to their classes online.  That's just what those student's wanted for their 70k per year tuition.  An Ivy League online degree.

 

Biden even put out a statement earlier today condemning what's going on there.

 

"Siding" at it's worst, academically.

[Ilunga]

9 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Here is the thing?

 

Murray is as smart as they come; his opinions highly credible and well investigated.  His views are just one sided. Its not like a Hamas driven conversation has a better moral ground to stand on. Start a conversation with?

 

There is a risk he points out.  We are willing to accept immigration as well as outkasts from the Islamic world in the West. They are not up to putting up with us as a Western World? Enough coming to the West prefer their ideology. A tipping point is inevitable?

 

Everywhere you look in the ME there are regimes as, more, egregious as Israel. On scale, make Gaza look peaceful even where Israel is admittedly brutal. The one that has the most ties to the West, Israel, is assasinated in a vote of popular opinion.  Because the Islamic world votes as one in global ideology. Is happy to let their own crimes go happily into that good night...    

 

 

Seriously ?

 

You think his anti immigration, Islamaphobic views are acceptable ?

 

The war on the west ?

 

The strange death of Europe ?

 

I thought you of all people, living in a multi - ethnic society like ours would repudiate his views. 

 

And Murray is not smart.

Murray is educated.

There is a huge difference.

 

You know that far right terrorism poses a greater than threat to western nations than Islamic terrorism, right ?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/sep/08/post-911-domestic-terror

 

 

https://www.euractiv.com/section/justice-home-affairs/news/far-right-terrorism-bigger-threat-to-west-than-islamic-state-study/

 

And David Murray is a far right figure.

 

 

 

If you support David Murray you are in great company, with the likes of Marie Le Pen, Victor Orban and Gert Vilders.

 

You keep comparing those fucked up islamic regimes as an excuse for Isreals behaviour.

Isreal is OK because they are worse. 

Two wrongs make a right.

Let's support a fascist government because they are surrounded by nutbag religious theocracies.

 

You do realise that you wouldn't be living in Australia, if Australia had the same immigration policies as Israel, right ?

 

 

 

 

 

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Seriously ?

 

You think his anti immigration, Islamaphobic views are acceptable ?

 

The war on the west ?

 

The strange death of Europe ?

 

I thought you of all people, living in a multi - ethnic society like ours would repudiate his views. 

 

And Murray is not smart.

Murray is educated.

There is a huge difference.

 

You know that far right terrorism poses a greater than threat to western nations than Islamic terrorism, right ?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/sep/08/post-911-domestic-terror

 

 

https://www.euractiv.com/section/justice-home-affairs/news/far-right-terrorism-bigger-threat-to-west-than-islamic-state-study/

 

And David Murray is a far right figure.

 

 

 

If you support David Murray you are in great company, with the likes of Marie Le Pen, Victor Orban and Gert Vilders.

 

You keep comparing those fucked up islamic regimes as an excuse for Isreals behaviour.

Isreal is OK because they are worse. 

Two wrongs make a right.

Let's support a fascist government because they are surrounded by nutbag religious theocracies.

 

You do realise that you wouldn't be living in Australia, if Australia had the same immigration policies as Israel, right ?

 

 

 

 

 

Why so much hatred of Israel and Jewish people? 

[Ilunga]

8 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

I guess what jumps to mind is, when you always have to rely on another country for your safety, are you really in control of your own safety? We don't tell others to go find someone else safe do we? 

 

I don't like bibi either but at least he can be voted out.

 

Really ?

 

Do you believe Canadian Jews feel less safe in Canada than say first nations people ?

The people that were there thousands of years before anyone else.

 

Do you believe Australians Jews feel less safe than first nations people here in Australia, the oldest continuous culture on this planet  ?

 

Do you believe that American Jews feel less safe than African - Americans in the US.

Maybe driving while Jewish can be compared to driving while black ?

 

 

 

 

 

[Bob Long]

1 minute ago, Ilunga said:

 

Really ?

 

Do you believe Canadian Jews feel less safe in Canada than say first nations people ?

The people that were there thousands of years before anyone else.

 

Do you believe Australians Jews feel less safe than first nations people here in Australia, the oldest continuous culture on this planet  ?

 

Do you believe that American Jews feel less safe than African - Americans in the US.

Maybe driving while Jewish can be compared to driving while black ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

When Israel was formed, yes.

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Ilunga said:

 

Really ?

 

Do you believe Canadian Jews feel less safe in Canada than say first nations people ?

The people that were there thousands of years before anyone else.

 

Do you believe Australians Jews feel less safe than first nations people here in Australia, the oldest continuous culture on this planet  ?

 

Do you believe that American Jews feel less safe than African - Americans in the US.

Maybe driving while Jewish can be compared to driving while black ?

 

 

 

 

 

What? What’s so wrong with Jewish people? Why the hate? 

[Ilunga]

11 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Why so much hatred of Israel and Jewish people? 

 

You are fucking kidding right ?

 

I don't hate anyone.

As I have stated many times the only thing I hate is injustice.  

 

I don't care what race, creed, religion, progression or trade you are.

I judge people by their actions and the content of the their character.

 

Why do you support a fascist government ?

 

I know you are anti religion. 

Why do you support people who believe the right of ownership to their land is because a god gave it to them.

One of the people you continually " like " his posts in this thread , used a mythical religious text as the basis of Isreali/Jewish ownership of Jerusalem.

How does that sit with you ?

 

That same religion bans marriage with people from another ethnicity.

How does that mesh with your anti - religious views.

 

Why do you support a government that has a convicted terrorist as a member ?

 

Why do you support a state that practices arpartheid ?

 

 

[Ilunga]

11 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

When Israel was formed, yes.

 

That's not the case now though is it.

 

I have already provided evidence of the power of Israeli lobby groups in our western nations.

 

The most powerful nation of all.

 

Isreali source Jim.

 

 

 

https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/2024-02-28/ty-article-magazine/.premium/aipac-explained-the-inside-story-of-americas-powerful-and-divisive-pro-israel-lobby/0000018d-e4ac-d972-a5bf-efaf96c60000

 

" AIPAC, EXPLAINED: 

The Inside Story of America Most Powerful and Divisive Pro- Israel Lobby

 

The American Israel Public Affairs Committee has clashed with and cosseted, targeted and championed US presidents and politicians turning Israel into an increasingly partisan issue. Here's what you need to know about AIPAC, the revered, feared and reviled lobbying and Political fundraising group, poised to play an oversized role in 2024' elections. "

[Ilunga]

8 hours ago, Alflives said:

Yup. We are a sad species. Star Trek half black v half white episode was far too accurate. We look for differences instead of commonality. 

 

Coming from you this is pure gold.

 

Who is the person who champions that we are all humans sharing this planet together Alf ?